The Law to Bear Arms, the law of the land

[PloughBoy]

@StewardoftheMystery , @Admon Mikha'el , @Andyindauk , @MedicBravo , @PloughBoy , @Waggles ,

Great discussion, please allow me to jump into the mix and hopefully contribute as well as learn.
I'm replying to the point about if Christians should have arms to protect themselves.

Thinking about how our Lord and Savior would answer the question, often going to the heart of the issue.
This comes to mind.

I think the real question is not about if a Christian should or should not have a gun?
I think the real question is where is your faith, and who do you trust to protect you?

If the gun becomes an idol for protection and stops one from fully depending on God, than
that is a problem.

However I do believe that many can have a firearm for protection, and not put their
faith and trust in it, but just use out of wisdom and not total fear. For example, there
are times in the Bible when God instructed the children of Hebrew to attack other
nations (they did this with weapons). Or David to take up arms, against Goliath.

In Summary: I could see God telling a believer who has a gun and is trusting in the gun for safety to
get rid of it, and put their trust in God.

I can also see God telling a believer who does not have a gun to get one, because
God in His foresight, sees that they will be the victim of a home robbery soon.

So ultimately I think it is about where do you put your trust. With that said, for those
who have guns, similar to those who have a lot of money, it is very hard to not put your trust in it.
Which means that the route of not having a gun is likely best, unless God directs you to.

John Knox spent his life with a sword in one hand and a Bible in the other and he wasn't afraid to use either.
He began his theological life as a body guard to George Wishart - and it was when that young man was put to death by the religious authorities that John Knox was finally persuaded of the need to awaken his country from the death of injustice and spiritual poverty that afflicted it.
He was never built for a quiet life and when he ran from one danger, he often found himself headed straight for another.
Escaping from the authorities brought him straight into a castle siege and from there he ended up as a galley slave on a French frigate.
No wonder he appreciated liberty when he had felt the grasp of slavery's chains and the cut of the enemy's whip.
But his thirst for true freedom came from his longing for God's Word to be preached. John knew that true liberty only came from being in service to God and his Kingdom.
Many stood against him and they still do today... but he gave much to his country and to his God and the church and Scotland owe John Knox - they owe him thanks as they owe the God he served thanks for calling such men to be his preachers. Less

A excerpt from:

John Knox: The Sharpened Sword

John Knox spent his life with a sword in one hand and a…

www.goodreads.com

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

John Knox spent his life with a sword in one hand and a Bible in the other and he wasn't afraid to use either.
He began his theological life as a body guard to George Wishart - and it was when that young man was put to death by the religious authorities that John Knox was finally persuaded of the need to awaken his country from the death of injustice and spiritual poverty that afflicted it.
He was never built for a quiet life and when he ran from one danger, he often found himself headed straight for another.
Escaping from the authorities brought him straight into a castle siege and from there he ended up as a galley slave on a French frigate.
No wonder he appreciated liberty when he had felt the grasp of slavery's chains and the cut of the enemy's whip.
But his thirst for true freedom came from his longing for God's Word to be preached. John knew that true liberty only came from being in service to God and his Kingdom.
Many stood against him and they still do today... but he gave much to his country and to his God and the church and Scotland owe John Knox - they owe him thanks as they owe the God he served thanks for calling such men to be his preachers. Less

A excerpt from:

John Knox: The Sharpened Sword

John Knox spent his life with a sword in one hand and a…

www.goodreads.com

Thanks for sharing about brother Knox

 

[GodB4Us]

John Knox spent his life with a sword in one hand and a Bible in the other and he wasn't afraid to use either.
He began his theological life as a body guard to George Wishart - and it was when that young man was put to death by the religious authorities that John Knox was finally persuaded of the need to awaken his country from the death of injustice and spiritual poverty that afflicted it.
He was never built for a quiet life and when he ran from one danger, he often found himself headed straight for another.
Escaping from the authorities brought him straight into a castle siege and from there he ended up as a galley slave on a French frigate.
No wonder he appreciated liberty when he had felt the grasp of slavery's chains and the cut of the enemy's whip.
But his thirst for true freedom came from his longing for God's Word to be preached. John knew that true liberty only came from being in service to God and his Kingdom.
Many stood against him and they still do today... but he gave much to his country and to his God and the church and Scotland owe John Knox - they owe him thanks as they owe the God he served thanks for calling such men to be his preachers. Less

A excerpt from:

John Knox: The Sharpened Sword

John Knox spent his life with a sword in one hand and a…

www.goodreads.com

What did John Knox said about this reference when he had used the sword?

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Reads here that if any Christian thinks they are doing God's service by killing someone, then they do not know the Father nor Jesus in according to His words. That is not saying that they are not saved because John Calvin had believed it was okay to execute a heretic but only excommunication was the Biblical practice to perform by the church and simple withdrawal by those Christians abiding in Him as His disciples in withdrawing from those that are not to not treat them as the enemy but to admonish them as brothers still in the hopes that they will be led to repentance.

Now if they were employed by the government as part of the militia to bear the sword to deter evil, then that would be a different story.

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I do not know about John Knox, but just sharing what the scriptures says. I believe the Civil War in America was a mistake and that those in elected office should have stayed to argue the merits for that civil war rather than just drop out.

The South could have argued how the North took advantage of the immigrants coming over to America as they work in industries but live in shanty make shifts huts and shacks on the city streets and were scrawny and freezing in the winter too. The slaves were better treated than they were. They could have argued the point by switching places; have the immigrants work the fields while the blacks worked the industries and see who says which is better.

Course, do unto others as you would have them do unto you is the golden rule of society so it should be obvious that since all men are created equal, they would work harder in applying that to every man, including the native American Indians but sinners did not because they are sinners. They say but do not... and so Pharisees in all respect as the end result of our government.

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.

So how can we get our government to trust in the Lord? Pray for them. No matter the soundness of reasonable oratory speeches, God has to cause the increase. Members of Talk Jesus should pray now as they read this so it is done.

 

[MedicBravo]

@Jesus_is_LORD
By all means jump in but don't ask for permission. Christians don't force or silence others.
"Thinking about how our Lord and Savior would answer the question, often going to the heart of the issue." - On this, Jesus was on a level and a standard no human can achieve. However, He did set one that we can though they are not easy. As they should, they are goals that are difficult but obtainable given the old buzzwords "hard work, strong faith, and discipline." Pretty sure the Disciples being the first to learn from Jesus had the most difficult time of it but they all succeeded except for one.
On both questions, God commands us to take care of the body and life He made for us.
He also commands us to protect those who cannot. Babies, children, elderly, sick, and those who won't protect themselves. Optimally, non-violent methods but in reality the majority of the time violence.
People often turn the harm to themselves and succeed.
More times, they have no problems hurting or killing others. Evil allowed to continue without opposition is the worst option.
If a firearm becomes an idol that is a subjective problem not a universal one.
If you're against it fine, but be sure to tell everyone you know, especially our family that if in such a situation you're going to do nothing while they get raped, beaten, and even killed. I then suggest you make a list of those who approve. I'm sure that list will be very few in number or non-existent.
We're not mind readers. Many have acted against such evil, Christian included, and have deterred further violence. God used people in the past to end evil and in historical record far more gore and violence to put an end to it. As given from the Creator it was justified like it or not.
No firearm has turned into a flower or the bullet into magical fairy dust. Ever. In rare, occasions the person can put it down as another can deescalate the situation.
I can't put specific numbers on it but a lot of people in this world have families and Christian or not will protect them at their own life.
As God created all then he "technically" created guns. One guy killed a lot of people with poisoned Kook-Aid. In Britain there are more stabbings than anything.
In essence, Self-defense or defenseless?
That random person or even some of your family may no be Christian so the "faith" that not having one is the "best" is weak at best.
If you think "If it's my time, it's my time." that is also a poor excuse. Only God know one's playbook and the tools to make our own decisions are all around us. Get and use one or not. Make sure all in your circle are comfortable with you not doing anything if you're against them. That might drive them to get one and have the same stance as I and countless Christians.
The early Christians wouldn't have lasted long without self-defense. God didn't make us doormats.
The tool is not the problem.

 

[GodB4Us]

@Jesus_is_LORD
By all means jump in but don't ask for permission. Christians don't force or silence others.
"Thinking about how our Lord and Savior would answer the question, often going to the heart of the issue." - On this, Jesus was on a level and a standard no human can achieve. However, He did set one that we can though they are not easy. As they should, they are goals that are difficult but obtainable given the old buzzwords "hard work, strong faith, and discipline." Pretty sure the Disciples being the first to learn from Jesus had the most difficult time of it but they all succeeded except for one.
On both questions, God commands us to take care of the body and life He made for us.
He also commands us to protect those who cannot. Babies, children, elderly, sick, and those who won't protect themselves. Optimally, non-violent methods but in reality the majority of the time violence.
People often turn the harm to themselves and succeed.
More times, they have no problems hurting or killing others. Evil allowed to continue without opposition is the worst option.
If a firearm becomes an idol that is a subjective problem not a universal one.
If you're against it fine, but be sure to tell everyone you know, especially our family that if in such a situation you're going to do nothing while they get raped, beaten, and even killed. I then suggest you make a list of those who approve. I'm sure that list will be very few in number or non-existent.
We're not mind readers. Many have acted against such evil, Christian included, and have deterred further violence. God used people in the past to end evil and in historical record far more gore and violence to put an end to it. As given from the Creator it was justified like it or not.
No firearm has turned into a flower or the bullet into magical fairy dust. Ever. In rare, occasions the person can put it down as another can deescalate the situation.
I can't put specific numbers on it but a lot of people in this world have families and Christian or not will protect them at their own life.
As God created all then he "technically" created guns. One guy killed a lot of people with poisoned Kook-Aid. In Britain there are more stabbings than anything.
In essence, Self-defense or defenseless?
That random person or even some of your family may no be Christian so the "faith" that not having one is the "best" is weak at best.
If you think "If it's my time, it's my time." that is also a poor excuse. Only God know one's playbook and the tools to make our own decisions are all around us. Get and use one or not. Make sure all in your circle are comfortable with you not doing anything if you're against them. That might drive them to get one and have the same stance as I and countless Christians.
The early Christians wouldn't have lasted long without self-defense. God didn't make us doormats.
The tool is not the problem.

We can trust the Lord to lead us in the way we ought to go.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But it is possible that Jesus wants us to be "doormats".

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Jesus said the same thing below and not just Peter as led by the Holy Spirit to write that above.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Trust Jesus as our Good Shepherd to lead us in the way we ought to go.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

I have found Psalm 37:1-40 KJV to be timely for the amount of offences that has come my way and still coming as my enemies are not repenting any time soon, but I trust the Lord to let go and to keep my eyes on Him for He will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

We can trust the Lord to lead us in the way we ought to go.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But it is possible that Jesus wants us to be "doormats".

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Jesus said the same thing below and not just Peter as led by the Holy Spirit to write that above.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Trust Jesus as our Good Shepherd to lead us in the way we ought to go.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

I have found Psalm 37:1-40 KJV to be timely for the amount of offences that has come my way and still coming as my enemies are not repenting any time soon, but I trust the Lord to let go and to keep my eyes on Him for He will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ.

Thanks for the reply.

You stated "We can trust the Lord to lead us in the way we ought to go." You are correct.

And you asked the question "But it is possible that Jesus wants us to be "doormats"[?]"

I think the answer would be yes.

However it is less about being a doormat, even though that is the end result,
but more about dying to our self so that God can take control. The self wants what the self wants.
And if we don't die to ourselves, the self will want to protect out of fear, or fight and get revenge
out of hate. So while the end effect is the same (being a doormat), I see it less about being a doormat
for the sake of being a doormat, but for emptying the person of self so that the Holy Spirit can take control
and lead where-ever God desires to take us. Sometimes God will call us to do bold things, other times
that is not in God's will.

You also stated "Jesus said the same thing below and not just Peter as led by the Holy Spirit to write that above."
Good passages, I agree with you. And pointing to my previous point, all of those things relate to emptying
of self. Not getting revenge(by turning the cheek because self is offended). Praying for people who use
you, instead of holding a grudge (because self feels bitter).

You also said "Trust Jesus as our Good Shepherd to lead us in the way we ought to go."
I agree completely.

So I wouldn't say I disagree with anything you share. I would just add, if I may, that
the point of being a doormat is not merely for being a doormat sake, but to empty of
self so that the Holy Spirit can fill in. But you as a faithful servant of our Lord, I'm sure already knows this.

 

[GodB4Us]

Thanks for the reply.

You stated "We can trust the Lord to lead us in the way we ought to go." You are correct.

And you asked the question "But it is possible that Jesus wants us to be "doormats"[?]"

I think the answer would be yes.

It wasn't a question if you rechecked that post, but I agree with you here as there will be times when we just need His help to trust the Lord and surrender to the evil befalling us.

However it is less about being a doormat, even though that is the end result,
but more about dying to our self so that God can take control. The self wants what the self wants.
And if we don't die to ourselves, the self will want to protect out of fear, or fight and get revenge
out of hate. So while the end effect is the same (being a doormat), I see it less about being a doormat
for the sake of being a doormat, but for emptying the person of self so that the Holy Spirit can take control
and lead where-ever God desires to take us. Sometimes God will call us to do bold things, other times
that is not in God's will.

You also stated "Jesus said the same thing below and not just Peter as led by the Holy Spirit to write that above."
Good passages, I agree with you. And pointing to my previous point, all of those things relate to emptying
of self. Not getting revenge(by turning the cheek because self is offended). Praying for people who use
you, instead of holding a grudge (because self feels bitter).

You also said "Trust Jesus as our Good Shepherd to lead us in the way we ought to go."
I agree completely.

So I wouldn't say I disagree with anything you share. I would just add, if I may, that
the point of being a doormat is not merely for being a doormat sake, but to empty of
self so that the Holy Spirit can fill in. But you as a faithful servant of our Lord, I'm sure already knows this.

Totally disagreeing with you now.

New age methodology of emptying self is not part of Christianity since denying yourself is inferring you are acknowledging you are not able to do something that only God can do for why we are submitting to God's help.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

I dare say, Chris, that I trust Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd to lead me through the Holy Spirit in me. Everything the Holy Spirit does, the words, the fruits, and the gifts are from Jesus Christ & the indwelling holy Spirit would defer all credit & glory to the Son and scripture & the indwelling Holy Spirit would lead us to do the same.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So should we honor the Son as led by the Spirit to do the will of the Father or do we keep on speaking and doing things not reflective of our faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[PloughBoy]

What did John Knox said about this reference when he had used the sword?

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Reads here that if any Christian thinks they are doing God's service by killing someone, then they do not know the Father nor Jesus in according to His words. That is not saying that they are not saved because John Calvin had believed it was okay to execute a heretic but only excommunication was the Biblical practice to perform by the church and simple withdrawal by those Christians abiding in Him as His disciples in withdrawing from those that are not to not treat them as the enemy but to admonish them as brothers still in the hopes that they will be led to repentance.

Now if they were employed by the government as part of the militia to bear the sword to deter evil, then that would be a different story.

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I do not know about John Knox, but just sharing what the scriptures says. I believe the Civil War in America was a mistake and that those in elected office should have stayed to argue the merits for that civil war rather than just drop out.

The South could have argued how the North took advantage of the immigrants coming over to America as they work in industries but live in shanty make shifts huts and shacks on the city streets and were scrawny and freezing in the winter too. The slaves were better treated than they were. They could have argued the point by switching places; have the immigrants work the fields while the blacks worked the industries and see who says which is better.

Course, do unto others as you would have them do unto you is the golden rule of society so it should be obvious that since all men are created equal, they would work harder in applying that to every man, including the native American Indians but sinners did not because they are sinners. They say but do not... and so Pharisees in all respect as the end result of our government.

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.

So how can we get our government to trust in the Lord? Pray for them. No matter the soundness of reasonable oratory speeches, God has to cause the increase. Members of Talk Jesus should pray now as they read this so it is done.

How can “WE” Get “The Devil” to trust in “GOD”!

“WE” did not Created him! Jesus who is “The WORD of GOD” created him! And he is doing what he was created to do!
And he is”Perfect” in what he does!

For I Do, see his Fruit!

 

[GodB4Us]

How can “WE” Get “The Devil” to trust in “GOD”!

We cannot.

I hope you are not inferring that the government is the devil.

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Government officials may become evil and deplorable sinners but that is for us to pray for .. yes, even for evil politicians for God can direct their actions in spite of their will and thoughts to do.

Proverbs 16:9.A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

“WE” did not Created him! Jesus who is “The WORD of GOD” created him! And he is doing what he was created to do!
And he is”Perfect” in what he does!

For I Do, see his Fruit!

What fruit is that which you see?

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

It wasn't a question if you rechecked that post, but I agree with you here as there will be times when we just need His help to trust the Lord and surrender to the evil befalling us.

Totally disagreeing with you now.

New age methodology of emptying self is not part of Christianity since denying yourself is inferring you are acknowledging you are not able to do something that only God can do for why we are submitting to God's help.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

I dare say, Chris, that I trust Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd to lead me through the Holy Spirit in me. Everything the Holy Spirit does, the words, the fruits, and the gifts are from Jesus Christ & the indwelling holy Spirit would defer all credit & glory to the Son and scripture & the indwelling Holy Spirit would lead us to do the same.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So should we honor the Son as led by the Spirit to do the will of the Father or do we keep on speaking and doing things not reflective of our faith in Jesus Christ?

I agree with the point you are making, although I don't think you are arguing against me, or perhaps I didn't articulate my position
in a manner which allows you to understand it as related to your terminology and references.

Perhaps if I put it this way (in terms of the emptying self topic) I might do a better job of communicating my point.

The verse that best communicates what I'm trying to say (related to emptying self) is this verse.
Let me how you understand this verse?

Luke 9:23--- " And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

 

[PloughBoy]

We cannot.

I hope you are not inferring that the government is the devil.

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Government officials may become evil and deplorable sinners but that is for us to pray for .. yes, even for evil politicians for God can direct their actions in spite of their will and thoughts to do.

Proverbs 16:9.A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

What fruit is that which you see?

I think you just read words, and no concept of regular meaning and Theological meaning in modern day and “Etymology” in depth, height, width nor length or have spent enough hours and years and and much tears and 100’s and 100’s of praying hours poured only into The “Bibical Text” of Holy Scripture! In Studying alone not including regular prayer life, But if you have cried many and many and watch the tears fall down on your Bible for “GOD” to Stamp every word upon your soul and you have worn out many bibles that the pages the words have dissolve away!
Literally!

How many years and hours have you exhausted to the least of Words to The Biblical Text in Question. And you did not eat the slop that fell from anothers “Regurgitation” table, concerning The Bibical text, and Lies cannot be found Concerning The explanation of His Text, and you cannot be found by “GOD” own eyes a “Liar”. Who And cannot be Trusted! Concerning handling The TRUTH.

The Truth also must flow not from a deceitful soul. If it has, The Word has been Tained and Polluted as it comes out , one’s mouth! It has a different effect.

When I write and print, it is based upon many Decades in The Text systematic!ally, when no personally internet as such was around…..For I would be a total fool, to speak on his behave and not by his personal command to take on such an Endeavour!

I would understand about you as well, for maybe you also have been “Ordain” and proven to be enrich with The Gift of GOD and witness by The“Presbyterians” and so been “Ordained” to do so! And not dare take upon this Initiative upon his own pride and not been tested.
And Provenly worthy by GOD by years of relentless studies in unbreakable Isolated studies as well and Forsaken all!

I know you are not taking efforts to deceive and uproot The Faithful and Claim you have forsaken all ,years upon years of unbroken study of The Bible and not just a Sunday church going wedsnesnight regular. That enjoys Sunday School delights. And so been so trained by internet post sticks!

I do not play games with GOD nor with his Word. I am not a Deceiver. For over 44 years and i do not Trust a man or Women! And many people think that we are Fools and that I am, a Fool for Jesus since “1977” and have not skip a beat! He called me I did not seek Him, And He called me By name! He Chose Me! And I Did not choose Him, I did not need Him!

Yes I can declare with Power! “ irresistible Grace”, !

Now That is what you call; “A testimony” “How The Potter have mold me..

What do that have to do with the texts in question?

Nothing, but “The Milk is Still on your “Breath”.
And honestly it is not a bad thing.

 

[GodB4Us]

I agree with the point you are making, although I don't think you are arguing against me, or perhaps I didn't articulate my position
in a manner which allows you to understand it as related to your terminology and references.

Perhaps if I put it this way (in terms of the emptying self topic) I might do a better job of communicating my point.

The verse that best communicates what I'm trying to say (related to emptying self) is this verse.
Let me how you understand this verse?

Luke 9:23--- " And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

We could not save ourselves, right? Is it not the same about us being able to follow Him by our merits and will power as well?

So that is how I apply those words to mean that we should not look to ourselves in doing the best we can by keeping a commitment or promises in following him, but rather deny ourselves as able to so we can rest in His New Covenant that He will do His work in us so we ca follow Him, thus picking up the cross daily of looking to the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in " how " we are able to follow Him.

I also apply that verse for when He says "Follow Me" to mean that we are to trust Him as the Good Shepherd He is to help us to follow Him as His sheep that follow His voice. So we deny ourselves as able to follow Him but we look to Him as our Good Shepherd to follow Him by faith. It is imply written that the just shall live by faith, and so that is how I see resting in Him for everything; our salvation for how we are saved simply by believing in Him as our Saviour, and resting in Him for all things in believing in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. Trust is the basis for all relationships and so God is asking us to trust Him; to believe Him which in all respect, is salvation for how Adam not believing in Him & His words which cause the fall in the first place in eating the forbidden fruit.

Hopefully the Lord led me to post my faith well enough in relations to that verse you had inquired about but I know that in spite of it all, He still has to cause the increase by enabling you to receive the truth in His words to bear more fruit as His disciple.

 

[GodB4Us]

I think you just read words, and no concept of regular meaning and Theological meaning in modern day and “Etymology” in depth, height, width nor length or have spent enough hours and years and and much tears and 100’s and 100’s of praying hours poured only into The “Bibical Text” of Holy Scripture! In Studying alone not including regular prayer life, But if you have cried many and many and watch the tears fall down on your Bible for “GOD” to Stamp every word upon your soul and you have worn out many bibles that the pages the words have dissolve away!
Literally!

I only read what you post. I believe I was replying to what you had posted. And I noticed that post #28 ( your post ) did not have any scriptures in your post.

How many years and hours have you exhausted to the least of Words to The Biblical Text in Question. And you did not eat the slop that fell from anothers “Regurgitation” table, concerning The Bibical text, and Lies cannot be found Concerning The explanation of His Text, and you cannot be found by “GOD” own eyes a “Liar”. Who And cannot be Trusted! Concerning handling The TRUTH.

It doesn't matter when it is on God to cause the increase. A young believer reading the Bible can reap benefits and wisdom by His will that it may take another many years to be able to receive by His will.

The Truth also must flow not from a deceitful soul. If it has, The Word has been Tained and Polluted as it comes out , one’s mouth! It has a different effect.

Where is that coming from?

When I write and print, it is based upon many Decades in The Text systematic!ally, when no personally internet as such was around…..For I would be a total fool, to speak on his behave and not by his personal command to take on such an Endeavour!

But aren't you bragging now? Paul never did that. So why are you?

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

I would understand about you as well, for maybe you also have been “Ordain” and proven to be enrich with The Gift of GOD and witness by The“Presbyterians” and so been “Ordained” to do so! And not dare take upon this Initiative upon his own pride and not been tested.
And Provenly worthy by GOD by years of relentless studies in unbreakable Isolated studies as well and Forsaken all!

I know you are not taking efforts to deceive and uproot The Faithful and Claim you have forsaken all ,years upon years of unbroken study of The Bible and not just a Sunday church going wedsnesnight regular. That enjoys Sunday School delights. And so been so trained by internet post sticks!

I do not play games with GOD nor with his Word. I am not a Deceiver. For over 44 years and i do not Trust a man or Women! And many people think that we are Fools and that I am, a Fool for Jesus since “1977” and have not skip a beat! He called me I did not seek Him, And He called me By name! He Chose Me! And I Did not choose Him, I did not need Him!

Yes I can declare with Power! “ irresistible Grace”, !

Now That is what you call; “A testimony” “How The Potter have mold me..

What do that have to do with the texts in question?

Nothing, but “The Milk is Still on your “Breath”.
And honestly it is not a bad thing.

Maybe you are not playing games but these are highlighting something, right? Why can I not do the same? Did you expect to have no influence on me or others to do the same from your postings?

Believe He has chosen you and ask for His help not to be so offended nor so defensive.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

We could not save ourselves, right? Is it not the same about us being able to follow Him by our merits and will power as well?

So that is how I apply those words to mean that we should not look to ourselves in doing the best we can by keeping a commitment or promises in following him, but rather deny ourselves as able to so we can rest in His New Covenant that He will do His work in us so we ca follow Him, thus picking up the cross daily of looking to the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in " how " we are able to follow Him.

I also apply that verse for when He says "Follow Me" to mean that we are to trust Him as the Good Shepherd He is to help us to follow Him as His sheep that follow His voice. So we deny ourselves as able to follow Him but we look to Him as our Good Shepherd to follow Him by faith. It is imply written that the just shall live by faith, and so that is how I see resting in Him for everything; our salvation for how we are saved simply by believing in Him as our Saviour, and resting in Him for all things in believing in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. Trust is the basis for all relationships and so God is asking us to trust Him; to believe Him which in all respect, is salvation for how Adam not believing in Him & His words which cause the fall in the first place in eating the forbidden fruit.

Hopefully the Lord led me to post my faith well enough in relations to that verse you had inquired about but I know that in spite of it all, He still has to cause the increase by enabling you to receive the truth in His words to bear more fruit as His disciple.

Amen, Amen

 

[PloughBoy]

I only read what you post. I believe I was replying to what you had posted. And I noticed that post #28 ( your post ) did not have any scriptures in your post.

It doesn't matter when it is on God to cause the increase. A young believer reading the Bible can reap benefits and wisdom by His will that it may take another many years to be able to receive by His will.

Where is that coming from?

But aren't you bragging now? Paul never did that. So why are you?

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

Maybe you are not playing games but these are highlighting something, right? Why can I not do the same? Did you expect to have no influence on me or others to do the same from your postings?

Believe He has chosen you and ask for His help not to be so offended nor so defensive.

I only read what you post. I believe I was replying to what you had posted. And I noticed that post #28 ( your post ) did not have any scriptures in your post.

It doesn't matter when it is on God to cause the increase. A young believer reading the Bible can reap benefits and wisdom by His will that it may take another many years to be able to receive by His will.

Where is that coming from?

But aren't you bragging now? Paul never did that. So why are you?

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

Maybe you are not playing games but these are highlighting something, right? Why can I not do the same? Did you expect to have no influence on me or others to do the same from your postings?

Believe He has chosen you and ask for His help not to be so offended nor so defensive.

I only read what you post. I believe I was replying to what you had posted. And I noticed that post #28 ( your post ) did not have any scriptures in your post.

It doesn't matter when it is on God to cause the increase. A young believer reading the Bible can reap benefits and wisdom by His will that it may take another many years to be able to receive by His will.

Where is that coming from?

But aren't you bragging now? Paul never did that. So why are you?

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

Maybe you are not playing games but these are highlighting something, right? Why can I not do the same? Did you expect to have no influence on me or others to do the same from your postings?

Believe He has chosen you and ask for His help not to be so offended nor so defensive.

 

[GodB4Us]

@PloughBoy

Thou kicketh the pots and then asked where does thou goeth?

 

[PloughBoy]

But
you say, or you project that you are familiar with the “Text of “Holy Scripture”.

Like I have said in essence, you read or know how to read words,

 

[GodB4Us]

But
you say, or you project that you are familiar with the “Text of “Holy Scripture”.

See how those are used to highlight your point?

Now let us address your wording. What do you mean by text? The actual spiritual meaning of the message or are we going to literal grammar and translation from the Hebrew & Greek?

Like I have said in essence, you read or know how to read words,

But you have a tendency and do seem to thrive on being deep with your words outside of the text of the Holy Scripture that has nothing to do with His words but reveling on going over fellow believers' heads in regards to any thing.

Why is that? To show off your intellect? To let fellow believers know that they are in presence of greatness?

And why do you get upset when I correct you by the scripture as if I dare say anything that the Lord wants you to know but you are not paying attention to Him as in listening so you can be corrected to bear more fruit as His chosen disciple?

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[PloughBoy]

See how those are used to highlight your point?

Now let us address your wording. What do you mean by text? The actual spiritual meaning of the message or are we going to literal grammar and translation from the Hebrew & Greek?

But you have a tendency and do seem to thrive on being deep with your words outside of the text of the Holy Scripture that has nothing to do with His words but reveling on going over fellow believers' heads in regards to any thing.

Why is that? To show off your intellect? To let fellow believers know that they are in presence of greatness?

And why do you get upset when I correct you by the scripture as if I dare say anything that the Lord wants you to know but you are not paying attention to Him as in listening so you can be corrected to bear more fruit as His chosen disciple?

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Why are we speaking, you do not understand the concept of word’s, especially concerning The “Bibical Texts” that be in question, and neither have you exhausted your past age concerning time in such labors.

Our discussions would be as if,Two “ Barbarians trying to communicate a impossible task! Wasting Considerable unethical time, orchestrated.

And that time, could well be used by both Riders, in other forms of “Dressage’s”.

 

[GodB4Us]

Why are we speaking, you do not understand the concept of word’s, especially concerning The “Bibical Texts” that be in question, and neither have you exhausted your past age concerning time in such labors.

Our discussions would be as if,Two “ Barbarians trying to communicate a impossible task! Wasting Considerable unethical time, orchestrated.

And that time, could well be used by both Riders, in other forms of “Dressage’s”.

And yet you still replied to this barbarian.

Well, I do not see you as a barbarian but then again " if " I call you brother, you'd get insulted.

Only God knows you are living for these kind of posts. I can only suspect.