• Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

The Most Unpardonable Sins

Active
As a side note to what i wrote above.

If it was only faith, and nothing else. Faith is only a precurser to knowledge.

In heaven your faith will pass away, you will have no need for it, as you will be with Jesus.

So if it only by faith to be in heaven, why are the devils not there. They know more about Jesus than we do while we are here on earth.

When Lucifer rejected God, he rejected love. "God is Love"

And as Paul states, faith without love is nothing.

Something to think about.
Faith without work is dead. Genuine faith in ANYTHING must be coupled with action, otherwise you don't really faith in what you believe in. That's why "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also," instead of the other way around. That trust with your treasure is a solid expression of action.
 
Member
I think part of the problem that you're having is you presuppose that by accepting Jesus as Lord that not only are all your former sins forgiven but all your future sins are forgiven .too

So let us think about that for a minute you have a new Christian that comes to the Lord and all the past sins are forgiven that's correct now the new Christian gets really angry at somebody else and he's told that all his future sins are forgiven all right so that Christian goes out and kills somebody and you know what he's saying to himself it's okay because God has forgiven me.

Why would Jesus teach us the Our Father if all our sins are forever forgiven.

Our Father who is in heaven holy is your name your kingdom come your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven give us today our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but Deliver Us from Evil amen

I'm sure the King James Bible and a few others have a little different variation of it but it's still the same

Why would we ask the Lord to forgive us our sins if Jesus has already done the forgiveness

It is true that Jesus died on the cross once for everyone sin. But we still need to seek forgiveness from what we do every single day.

Why would we ask the Lord to forgive us our sins if Jesus has already done the forgiveness

It is true that Jesus died on the cross once for everyone sin. But we still need to seek forgiveness from what we do every single day.
Greetings
if I may

If Christ died for our sins, it is for those he came for, not all put those who were predestined before the foundation of the earth

Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom
He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

{These believers are already chosen, {predestined} {These believers are sanctified}

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NKJV) just as
He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
{These believers are paid by Christ. himself}
1 Peter 1:18-23 (NKJV) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.
{If I give a gift how can I show His sacrifice for my sins, by the testimony of my confession}



On the other hand
Matthew 22:14 (NKJV) For many are called, but few are chosen."
Testing faith
Romans 10:8-11 (NKJV) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
The Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame."

Psalm 51:17 (NKJV) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise.

{confession is made unto salvation}
Psalm 17:1 (KJV) Hear the right, O LORD, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
{confession is made that will not be put to shame! at his appearance}

{These become selected for salvation}
In
Hebrews 12:6-10 (NKJV) For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is
there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
{These become selected for salvation, through various trials}

1 Peter 1:6-11 (NKJV) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, who has not seen you love.
Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
Of this salvation, the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.


{tested by fire, by the Holy Spirit} {The Spirit of Burning Isaiah 4:4} {This being baptized by fire by the Holy Spirit, it is Spiritual}

Matthew 28:18-20 (NKJV) And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


Romans 9:15 (KJV) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Isaiah 55:5-9 (NKJV) Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, And nations who do not know you shall run to you, Because of the LORD your God, And the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."
Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts
.


There are many passages in the word to testify what I know to be true, this is just a few
Why would we ask the Lord to forgive us our sins if Jesus has already done the forgiveness?

It is true that Jesus died on the cross once for everyone's sins. But we still need to seek forgiveness for what we do every single day.
 
Active
Greetings
if I may

If Christ died for our sins, it is for those he came for, not all put those who were predestined before the foundation of the earth
There's no "if". Christ DID die for our sins. For all those who believe in him, their sins are forgiven, and they shall have eternal life; for all those who do NOT believe in him, their sins will be accounted for at the white throne judgement. What's often neglected or ignored is exactly the warning in Matthew 12:31, which is pointed out in the OP. Real believers praise the Lord and follow the Spirit, fake believers praise the Lord but blaspheme against the Spirit, those are the hypocrites who practice lawlessness, them Jesus never knew.
 
Member
There's no "if". Christ DID die for our sins. For all those who believe in him, their sins are forgiven, and they shall have eternal life; for all those who do NOT believe in him, their sins will be accounted for at the white throne judgement. What's often neglected or ignored is exactly the warning in Matthew 12:31, which is pointed out in the OP. Real believers praise the Lord and follow the Spirit, fake believers praise the Lord but blaspheme against the Spirit, those are the hypocrites who practice lawlessness, them Jesus never knew.
greetings
I Stand Corrected
He died for those as I was saying
predestined before the foundation of the earth not the entire population of the earth, then you have those who died in faith in time past

Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

{These believers are already chosen, {predestined} {These believers are sanctified}

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NKJV) just as
He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
{These believers are paid by Christ. himself}
1 Peter 1:18-23 (NKJV) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.

{If I give a gift how can I show His sacrifice for my sins, by the testimony of my confession}


On the other hand, as I said
Matthew 22:14 (NKJV) For many are called, but few are chosen."
Testing faith
Romans 10:8-11 (NKJV) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
The Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame."

Psalm 51:17 (NKJV) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise.

{confession is made unto salvation}
Psalm 17:1 (KJV) Hear the right, O LORD, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
{confession is made that will not be put to shame! at his appearance}

{These become selected for salvation}
In Hebrews 12:6-10 (NKJV)
For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
{These become selected for salvation, through various trials}
1 Peter 1:6-11 (NKJV) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, who has not seen you love.
Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
Of this salvation, the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

{tested by fire, by the Holy Spirit} {The Spirit of Burning Isaiah 4:4} {This being baptized by fire by the Holy Spirit, it is Spiritual}

Matthew 28:18-20 (NKJV) And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Romans 9:15 (KJV) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Isaiah 55:5-9 (NKJV) Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, And nations who do not know you shall run to you, Because of the LORD your God, And the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."
Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts
.



Comparing Scripture with Scripture
John 5:39-44 (NKJV)
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
I do not receive honor from men.
But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
How can you believe, those who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

John 5:39-43 (ESV)
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is they that bear witness about me,
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
I do not receive glory from people.
But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.
I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

John 5:38-44 (KJV)
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I receive not honor from men
.
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?


Note you can not change what was already predestined and these are they which testify of Me. they that bear witness about me, the chosen one
 
Active
greetings
I Stand Corrected
He died for those as I was saying
predestined before the foundation of the earth not the entire population of the earth, then you have those who died in faith in time past

Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

{These believers are already chosen, {predestined} {These believers are sanctified}

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NKJV) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
{These believers are paid by Christ. himself}
1 Peter 1:18-23 (NKJV) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.

{If I give a gift how can I show His sacrifice for my sins, by the testimony of my confession}


On the other hand, as I said
Matthew 22:14 (NKJV) For many are called, but few are chosen."
Testing faith
Romans 10:8-11 (NKJV) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
The Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame."

Psalm 51:17 (NKJV) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise.

{confession is made unto salvation}
Psalm 17:1 (KJV) Hear the right, O LORD, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
{confession is made that will not be put to shame! at his appearance}


{These become selected for salvation}
In Hebrews 12:6-10 (NKJV) For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
{These become selected for salvation, through various trials}
1 Peter 1:6-11 (NKJV) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, who has not seen you love.
Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
Of this salvation, the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.


{tested by fire, by the Holy Spirit} {The Spirit of Burning Isaiah 4:4} {This being baptized by fire by the Holy Spirit, it is Spiritual}

Matthew 28:18-20 (NKJV) And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Romans 9:15 (KJV) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Isaiah 55:5-9 (NKJV) Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, And nations who do not know you shall run to you, Because of the LORD your God, And the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."
Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts
.



Comparing Scripture with Scripture
John 5:39-44 (NKJV)
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
I do not receive honor from men.
But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
How can you believe, those who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

John 5:39-43 (ESV)
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is they that bear witness about me,
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
I do not receive glory from people.
But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.
I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

John 5:38-44 (KJV)
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I receive not honor from men
.
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?


Note you can not change what was already predestined and these are they which testify of Me. they that bear witness about me, the chosen one
No you don't. Calvinism is a heresy. The only destination "predestined" for all mankind is hell, for "through one man's (Adam) offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation." (Rom. 5:18). It was Jesus who turned us around from our hell-bound race to the Way, the narrow road of righteousness, for "thourgh one man's (Jesus) righteous act (atonement) the free gift (salvation) came to all men, resulting in justification of life." (Rom. 5:18) Accepting or rejecting this free gift, though, is a conscious CHOICE. It may be predestined from God's perspective, but not from ours, for we neither know who in the past were "predestined" saints nor who in the future.
 
Active
Faith without work is dead. Genuine faith in ANYTHING must be coupled with action, otherwise you don't really faith in what you believe in. That's why "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also," instead of the other way around. That trust with your treasure is a solid expression of action.
James 's faith without works only applies to when a church declares their faith to the poor that God will provide, the church better be leading by example to the poor and not just say that to get out of helping the poor; an abuse James was rebuking the church for doing. James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works because Paul testified that though a former believer will verbally deny Him, He still abides in them for why those unrepentant saints and former believers left behind as denied by Him are still saved because He is faithful for He still abides and will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So those who do not depart from iniquity are vessels unto dishonor in His House as denied by Him for being in iniquity that denies Him.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The reason they are still in His House as vessels unto dishonor, the vessels of wood & earth, is to testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name. This is why the prodigal son that gave up his inheritance for wild living is still son, even though he can never get that inheritance back in being of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event when the Bridegroom comes, he is still son though left behind.
 
Active
James 's faith without works only applies to when a church declares their faith to the poor that God will provide, the church better be leading by example to the poor and not just say that to get out of helping the poor; an abuse James was rebuking the church for doing. James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works because Paul testified that though a former believer will verbally deny Him, He still abides in them for why those unrepentant saints and former believers left behind as denied by Him are still saved because He is faithful for He still abides and will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So those who do not depart from iniquity are vessels unto dishonor in His House as denied by Him for being in iniquity that denies Him.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The reason they are still in His House as vessels unto dishonor, the vessels of wood & earth, is to testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name. This is why the prodigal son that gave up his inheritance for wild living is still son, even though he can never get that inheritance back in being of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event when the Bridegroom comes, he is still son though left behind.
That was just a prominent example to demonstrate his point, along with the OT examples of Abraham sacrificing Isaac and Rehab hiding the two scouts. This debate of "faith vs work" is pointless, you know, faith and work are the two sides of the same coin, you can't have one without the other.
 
Loyal
So it is, we rewrite the scripture as if we know more than God.

Take heed, Hebrews is written for all.

Explain to me one thing

Jesus said to His apostles, after they returned from healing and casting out demons. " rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven "

Judas Iscariot was listed in this group

Jesus said Judas Iscariot's name was listed in Heaven, if this was true, then why would Jesus later say " it would have been better if he had never been born "

How can a man whose name is listed in heaven be cast to hell, based on your theology?
 
Active
Jesus said to His apostles, after they returned from healing and casting out demons. " rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven "

Judas Iscariot was listed in this group
Was he? We don't know that. He betrayed Jesus, and in Act 1 he was replaced with Matthias.
 
Member
No you don't. Calvinism is a heresy. The only destination "predestined" for all mankind is hell, for "through one man's (Adam) offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation." (Rom. 5:18). It was Jesus who turned us around from our hell-bound race to the Way, the narrow road of righteousness, for "thourgh one man's (Jesus) righteous act (atonement) the free gift (salvation) came to all men, resulting in justification of life." (Rom. 5:18) Accepting or rejecting this free gift, though, is a conscious CHOICE. It may be predestined from God's perspective, but not from ours, for we neither know who in the past were "predestined" saints nor who in the future.
Matthew 22:14 (NKJV) For many are called, but few are chosen."
 
Active
That was just a prominent example to demonstrate his point, along with the OT examples of Abraham sacrificing Isaac and Rehab hiding the two scouts. This debate of "faith vs work" is pointless, you know, faith and work are the two sides of the same coin, you can't have one without the other.
In regards to James reference to Abraham sacrificing Isaac, Abraham named the place Jehovah-Jireh in signifying what that supernatural event was about, as in faith in God will provide. In the same faith Rahab had faith that God will provide for her escape if she helped the 2 Hebrew spies escape. This is what James was rebuking the church for in regards to their abuse and neglect of the poor. You have to start from the beginning of the chapter at James 2 nd chapter KJV to see James rebuking the church for the abuse and neglect of the poor over rich people by favoritism to see how at the end of church service, the church was sending away the poor sharing their faith to the poor that God will provide for the poor JUST to get out of helping the poor. That is why in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide was dead to the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements and starvation seeing how the church was failing to show that faith to the poor by meeting the immediate needs of the poor from the bounty collected at church service.

Paul preached salvation without works on numerous occasions but emphasized discipleship as in running that race to bear fruit as His disciples to gain the incorruptible crown while at the same time avoiding becoming a castaway as disqualified. Paul was given the right hand of fellowship with James and that cannot happen if they were preaching a different gospel.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

That was what James was trying to do in the Book of James to remember the poor and not show favoritism nor neglect the poor when they are in immediate need of help from the elements and starvation. When a church declare their faith in God to provide to the poor, the church better be leading by example or their faith in God to provide is really dead.

If the church was to be judged as not saved for mistreating the poor like that, then James would be preaching the gospel to them, but he wasn't. James was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by just sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without leading by example.

In the same way, the Church of the Laodiceans being complacent and idle, or even when a pastor that is being provided a 401 K pension plan, a home to live in while ministering, a salary and expenses paid like going out to eat, and he rails from the pulpit that members are stealing from God by not tithing nor keeping up with their giving, then that pastor's faith in God to provide by raising up cheerful givers is dead.

Yet God addressed the church in Revelation as His church and not as if they are unsaved because of their works or lack thereof.

Here are some of Paul's writings how faith in Jesus Christ is without works with a reference to Abraham for how it was counted unto him for righteousness for believing God.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Again, another reference...

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Paul did go one to say what value works does have and that it is profitable unto men, not for proof of salvation.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is important to run that race in being fruitful as His disciples to obtain the incorruptible crown so as to avoid being a castaway as in left behind for not abiding in Him & His words but in iniquity.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Although left behind for failing to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ as saved believers going on to perfection, if any run that race to obtain salvation, then they do so in unbelief and denying Him as their Saviour when they are saved.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As it is, those in unrepentant iniquity are still saved for why they are left behind as vessels unto dishonor but still in His House, to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels of wood & earth to serve the King of kings on earth.
 
Active
In regards to James reference to Abraham sacrificing Isaac, Abraham named the place Jehovah-Jireh in signifying what that supernatural event was about, as in faith in God will provide. In the same faith Rahab had faith that God will provide for her escape if she helped the 2 Hebrew spies escape. This is what James was rebuking the church for in regards to their abuse and neglect of the poor. You have to start from the beginning of the chapter at James 2 nd chapter KJV to see James rebuking the church for the abuse and neglect of the poor over rich people by favoritism to see how at the end of church service, the church was sending away the poor sharing their faith to the poor that God will provide for the poor JUST to get out of helping the poor. That is why in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide was dead to the poor and will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements and starvation seeing how the church was failing to show that faith to the poor by meeting the immediate needs of the poor from the bounty collected at church service.

This might be a bit of off topic, but these two examples have great prophetic significance, they are foreshadowing Christ’s first and second comings. When Abraham sacrificing the ram which took Isaac’s place, that was Jesus taking the atonement for our sin; those two spies on the other hand were bringing the news of God’s judgement through Joshua, they were the Two Witnesses at the end times, believe it or not. God’s judgement was imminent. Both the king of Jericho knew it very well and Rehab the harlot knew it very well, yet the king chose to hunt them down (Josh. 2:2-3), while Rehab chose to save them by hiding them (Josh. 2:2-4).

In these two instances, what was required was far beyond a little elbow grease or a little pocket change kind of work. In the first one, the cost was Abraham’s only legitimate son whom he loved the most over everyone and everything else; in the second, Rehab was risking her life and her entire household’s. Faith is not blind trust or wishful thinking, it’s counterintuitive decision that could take everything you have, that why Jesus warned about counting the cost of discipleship.
 
Active
This might be a bit of off topic, but these two examples have great prophetic significance, they are foreshadowing Christ’s first and second comings. When Abraham sacrificing the ram which took Isaac’s place, that was Jesus taking the atonement for our sin; those two spies on the other hand were bringing the news of God’s judgement through Joshua, they were the Two Witnesses at the end times, believe it or not. God’s judgement was imminent. Both the king of Jericho knew it very well and Rehab the harlot knew it very well, yet the king chose to hunt them down (Josh. 2:2-3), while Rehab chose to save them by hiding them (Josh. 2:2-4).

In these two instances, what was required was far beyond a little elbow grease or a little pocket change kind of work. In the first one, the cost was Abraham’s only legitimate son whom he loved the most over everyone and everything else; in the second, Rehab was risking her life and her entire household’s. Faith is not blind trust or wishful thinking, it’s counterintuitive decision that could take everything you have, that why Jesus warned about counting the cost of discipleship.
Actually the cost of discipleship is not just following Him while on earth, but being ready & willing to leave this life behind for when the Bridegroom comes. Most take Luke 14:25-33 to mean leaving all and hating all on earth while following Him as His disciple on earth, but not so. When one reads Luke 14:15-24 prior, it is about leaving every one we love and everything we care about behind on earth for Heaven. That is what is meant of not considering the cost in the end.
 
Active
Actually the cost of discipleship is not just following Him while on earth, but being ready & willing to leave this life behind for when the Bridegroom comes.
See, "when the Bridegroom comes", this is where I strongly disagree with you. When? The answer is very clear and very simple:

"You (Israel) shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "(Matt. 23:39)

In the first coming, Israel rejected him and used Gentile civil power to put him to death, therefore God reverses the by using the similar measure - using Gentile church to shame Israel and bring them back to him. When Israel finally calls for the name of the Lord - as the LAST among all nations, even after cannibalistic tribes in forest does, then Jesus will return. That's the big picture of God's plan, but most churches never tell you that because they're stuck with replacement theology.

As for you and me, individually, this is not our concern, for "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:7) We know it draws near, the signs are everywhere, but still we know not the timing, it is not for us to decide, all we can do is to follow the Spirit and live for the Lord every day, like every past generation.
 
Active
See, "when the Bridegroom comes", this is where I strongly disagree with you. When? The answer is very clear and very simple:

"You (Israel) shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "(Matt. 23:39)
That can still apply to Israel being the ones that shall see Him coming as the King of kings at the end of the great tribulation, without negating His appearance as the Bridegroom for the ready abiding bride of Christ for the Marriage Supper above in Heaven before that fire that decimates one third of the earth that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all on the earth in bringing about the great tribulation..
In the first coming, Israel rejected him and used Gentile civil power to put him to death, therefore God reverses the by using the similar measure - using Gentile church to shame Israel and bring them back to him. When Israel finally calls for the name of the Lord - as the LAST among all nations, even after cannibalistic tribes in forest does, then Jesus will return. That's the big picture of God's plan, but most churches never tell you that because they're stuck with replacement theology.

As for you and me, individually, this is not our concern, for "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:7) We know it draws near, the signs are everywhere, but still we know not the timing, it is not for us to decide, all we can do is to follow the Spirit and live for the Lord every day, like every past generation.
Because of the falling away from the faith which is happening in droves in these latter days is why God is judging His House first at the rapture event, signaling the end of the times of the Gentiles whereby the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses, for the duration of the coming great tribulation.
 
Active
That can still apply to Israel being the ones that shall see Him coming as the King of kings at the end of the great tribulation, without negating His appearance as the Bridegroom for the ready abiding bride of Christ for the Marriage Supper above in Heaven before that fire that decimates one third of the earth that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all on the earth in bringing about the great tribulation..
Jesus will only come as the king of kings. Sorry, man, no wiggle room here. Why would he come as the bridegroom when the bride is already dressed up and waiting for him at the chuppah? Back in Genesis, Abraham sent his most trusted servant to find a bride for Isaac. That servant actually suggested to bring Isaac with him, but Abraham turned it down because “he will send his angel (messenger) before you” (Gen. 24:7). Jesus may return WITH the bride, but he won’t return for the bride.
 
Active
Jesus will only come as the king of kings. Sorry, man, no wiggle room here. Why would he come as the bridegroom when the bride is already dressed up and waiting for him at the chuppah? Back in Genesis, Abraham sent his most trusted servant to find a bride for Isaac. That servant actually suggested to bring Isaac with him, but Abraham turned it down because “he will send his angel (messenger) before you” (Gen. 24:7). Jesus may return WITH the bride, but he won’t return for the bride.
Matthew 22:1-14 & Matthew 25:1-13 & Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 13:24-30 describes the Marriage Supper as an immediate event where there is a sit down with Old Testament saints in Heaven above for why those not ready are left behind.

Those scripture above does not align with Him coming as the King of kings to earth.

So may I suggest you ask Jesus Christ to be your Good Shepherd and to help you get ready? Because that is something no pastor nor church can do. The Lord knows what areas you need His help in to be ready as found abiding in Him as well as His help to be willing to go for when the Bridegroom comes. Can't hurt to ask Him, right?
 
Active
Matthew 22:1-14 & Matthew 25:1-13 & Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 13:24-30 describes the Marriage Supper as an immediate event where there is a sit down with Old Testament saints in Heaven above for why those not ready are left behind.

Those scripture above does not align with Him coming as the King of kings to earth.

So may I suggest you ask Jesus Christ to be your Good Shepherd and to help you get ready? Because that is something no pastor nor church can do. The Lord knows what areas you need His help in to be ready as found abiding in Him as well as His help to be willing to go for when the Bridegroom comes. Can't hurt to ask Him, right?
I told you many times that those two parables are addressing to the guests and the bridemaids, the bride is not mentioned because she’s already at the wedding, and you just don’t listen.
 
Active
I told you many times that those two parables are addressing to the guests and the bridemaids, the bride is not mentioned because she’s already at the wedding, and you just don’t listen.
The parables are the same as receiving the bride to her new home by the Bridegroom and that is to be received to the wedding reception.

It is the "reception" you are overlooking and why some are not received for not being ready. Matthew 25:1-13
 
Top