The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !

[Rhema]

You have handled the word deceitfully !

And you have done nothing more than given an uneducated personal opinion. Any deceit is self-evident.

 

[Rhema]

attributing the word deceit to each other is not contributing to this discussion

There is no discussion, @Christ4Ever. Nothing within BF's thread here has ever amounted to a discussion. It is nothing more than a didactic diatribe (see below).

On the other hand, I've provided irrefutable proof, evidence, and academic references to explain what the word δίδωμι means. BF (after many posts) finally did a cut and paste from Bible Hub that even contradicts his own belief. (Sad, but true.)

Both of you have chosen sides

I have not chosen a "side." I have explained what the language itself overtly states - in both English and Greek - an explanation that any sane, education person would accept. There are not two "sides" to truth. And for some reason you seem to believe that the "righteous" thing to do in any contention is to scold both parties. It's a pretty woke ideology, where everyone gets a participation trophy, and nobody can ever be right because, at the end, Truth - absolute objective Truth doesn't exist. (No wonder our educational system is so messed up - along with the people whom it produces.) Human parents always make this mistake, thinking that peace is the goal, rather than Truth. A peace that serves the parents rather than the children. (Shut The Kids Up, I Just Want Some Peace and Quiet !!) Mediators always make this mistake, thinking that peacemaking automatically produces Truth, believing that compromise is the final goal of Truth. But Peacemakers are NOT blessed when they obliterate Truth.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.​

(Matthew 5:9 KJV)

How could the children of God NOT demand Truth if we are to be obedient to the command that we are to worship in Spirit and Truth?

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.​

(John 4:23 KJV)

Peacemaking is an intervention so that all parties involved can find objective Truth. We are to make peace between the lost and deceived, and God. But we cannot do this without Truth.

it seems that you perceive the other's writing to be contrary to your own interpretation

The rules of grammar and the definition of words are NOT subject to any one individual's "interpretation." I would ask you read Post #308 - LINK again. It best explains my purposes here.

I have been waiting for @Brightfame52 to post substantive proofs for his claims about the word δίδωμι. Yet they still remain unsubstantiated - hidden - merely an expressed opinion of an uniformed mind. Yet...

No one has a right to his opinion. However, one does have a right to an informed opinion.

Yes, I've been accused of deceit.

deceit

1. (an act of) keeping the truth hidden, especially to get an advantage: 2…

dictionary.cambridge.org

And yes, perhaps that's not the correct word for the actions of BF.

But what adjective would you approve of? Addle-minded? Ignorant? Obstinate? Brainwashed? What adjective would you use? Can we settle on misled? (Although we have yet to be told what he is led by... another thing that remains hidden.)

Truth be told, I believe that BF is actually a victim of deceit (as defined above). Whether he has been deceived, or whether he has deceived himself, there certainly is deceitfulness going on, since he has continually hidden his supposed 30 years of study about the word δίδωμι by not posting what his claims are based upon. (Bible Hub didn't exist 30 years ago, and even then BF did not care to cite the quote.)

I, though, have not hidden anything - with citations from three credible Greek Lexicons. I have not hidden my sources to gain an advantage. I have not been deceitful to hide the Truth.

deceitful

1. dishonest or hiding the truth: 2. dishonest or hiding the truth:

dictionary.cambridge.org

But there has been deceit, and the main victim of that deceit is the general reader of this thread.

So perhaps the use of the word deceitful is not contributing to this discussion, but it descriptive of BF keeping the truth about δίδωμι hidden, especially to get an advantage (for his personal interpretations). I would rather that not be hidden from the reader.

Respectfully,
Rhema

didactic

1. intended to teach, especially in a way that is too determined or eager, and…

dictionary.cambridge.org

diatribe

1. an angry speech or piece of writing that severely criticizes something or…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Rhema]

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give (δίδωμι) the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? ​

(Luke 11:13 KJV)

If Jesus says that one needs to ask, doesn't one need to ask?

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

There is no discussion, @Christ4Ever. Nothing within BF's thread here has ever amounted to a discussion. It is nothing more than a didactic diatribe (see below).

Between you two, I agree it has stopped being a discussion a while back, but in the theme of the thread I'm sure there has been some gain by some.

I have not chosen a "side."

Sure, you have. You and others who agree with you, would say that you have sided with providing the truth.

A peace that serves the parents rather than the children. (Shut The Kids Up, I Just Want Some Peace and Quiet !!) Mediators always make this mistake, thinking that peacemaking automatically produces Truth, believing that compromise is the final goal of Truth. But Peacemakers are NOT blessed when they obliterate Truth.

I would agree if that were what I am trying to accomplish. It's more of a referee's action, which is let's keep it clean. What I see is a stubbornness to see/admit that what one believes is incorrect as far as the topic is concerned, which doesn't necessarily mean they are deceivers as you believe them to be, except possible to themselves. Which is something other than intended by you both in the use of "deceit".

Yes, I've been accused of deceit.

Yes, you have on more than one occasion, if I may add. And you were gracious enough at that time to refrain from responding in like manner....for the most part.

Truth be told, I believe that BF is actually a victim of deceit (as defined above). Whether he has been deceived, or whether he has deceived himself, there certainly is deceitfulness going on, since he has continually hidden his supposed 30 years of study about the word δίδωμι by not posting what his claims are based upon. (Bible Hub didn't exist 30 years ago, and even then BF did not care to cite the quote.)

As a fellow poster on this thread, I agree, but as a Moderator if the intent of your word selection had included what you explained above, I might not have responded as I did and would likely have let it pass without comment.

Thank you for your response to my previous message. No further reply is necessary for this one.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Bill]

God does love all men, all of mankind without any reservations.

 

[Rhema]

Sure, you have. You and others who agree with you, would say that you have sided with providing the truth.

Truth is typically accorded to the specific content of theological assertions, at least within the purvue of this forum. When being taught 10th grade English, would any student debate the "truth" about grammar and definitions of words? I trow not. Who has ever taken a position that the dictionary is not true?

What I see is a stubbornness to see/admit that what one believes is incorrect as far as the topic is concerned,

Those posts that have discussed deceit (at least on my part) were not about the topic of this thread, but rather about the rules of grammar and the definitions of words.

which doesn't necessarily mean they are deceivers as you believe them to be,

Yet I provided my definition of the word deceit, although saying "my" definition is absurd. No one owns the definition of a word. And the definition of that word deceit is "keeping the truth hidden, especially to get an advantage." I would politely suggest that you read through the posts from @Brightfame52 with regards to the word δίδωμι and you would see where said deceit occurs - where the truth regarding the definition and use of the word δίδωμι was kept hidden by my esteemed colleague to gain an advantage for his theological claims.

And you were gracious enough at that time to refrain from responding in like manner....for the most part.

Until it became necessary to point out the deceit - that which was hidden being the academic sources for BF's claims about the word δίδωμι. Or personal reasons for that matter (possibly examples even) instead of some vague appeal to 30 years of study.

but as a Moderator if the intent of your word selection had included what you explained above, I might not have responded as I did

When posting, I'm not typically inclined to provide definitions for all the words I use, unless those words come under scrutiny. I use words as I understand their definition, and would think others do the same. If a concern arises, we can always play dueling dictionaries.

Thank you for your response to my previous message. No further reply is necessary for this one.

Sokay.

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

Jn 3:16

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those God Loved in Jn 3:16, that world, had to be viewed by God as in Union with Christ Jesus, those Chosen in Him. For God's Love for any people is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original " the Love of God " is thv agaphv tou qeou, as you can see it is preceded by the definite article, Identifying this as the exclusive Love of God, God has no other Love for men apart from His saving and Electing Purpose in Christ Jesus !

When writing about God's Purpose of Election in Rom 9, Paul writes in support of it by the comparing of the twins Jacob and Esau, to testify that it was Jacob that was God's Elect, he writes Rom 9:11-13

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This makes it plain that God's Love is exclusively associated with His Purpose of Election, which Purpose is in Christ Jesus , which Love He Loved them because of being in Him by Election before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that the Love of God in Jn 3:16 is not the same exact Love of God in Rom 8:39. Now it would be above foolish to suppose that everyone in the world of Jn 3:16 was in Christ Jesus, but yet, would have to be if "so loved by God" 8

 

[Brightfame52]

The World God so Loved and Christ Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25, is that universal society of people He foreknew, and those who Love God Rom 8:28-30. For they are the only People who are His, and because of Christ's Death for them, they do and shall depart from iniquity 2 Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

This they do [ depart from iniquity] because Christ by His Death did redeem them from it Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Being redeemed from a vain manner of Life, is being redeemed from iniquity experimentally, this was accomplished by the Blood of Christ alone !

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Thats the world God Loved, the Redeemed world Rev 5:9


And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[Brightfame52]

God's Love to His Elect, which began from Everlasting , by choosing them in Christ, yet it never changes, even when they sinned in Adam their natural head, or even when they themselves enter into the world by natural generation and begin their personal transgressions, being BY NATURE children of wrath as are others[the non elect], as God has always Loved them, He changes them, converts them by giving them a New Birth from above, and hence they come to Love Him, because He first Loved them ! So God's Love makes a difference and change in them, beginning by His making them alive or quickening them while dead in Sins, so Paul writes of them Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

If anyone does not experience this quickening together with Christ because of God's great Love for them, then God did not Love them at all !

 

[Brightfame52]

Perception of Eternal Love !


The Love that God has for His Own People is a Love perceived by them to be from Everlasting, David's perception of a Love that God had in His People from Old, or Everlasting Ps 25:6

Remember, O Lord, thy tender mercies and thy lovingkindnesses; for they have been ever of old.

David like all True Saints, know of God's Eternal Love for them in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39, and that His Mercies for their Salvation is from Everlasting to Everlasting Ps 103:17

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

This is the only Love God has, and it is not for those whom He did not choose in Christ before the world began Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 8

 

[Brightfame52]

God does not Love all mankind without exception !


The False Teachers of our time and time past who teach that God loves all mankind without exception are nothing but deceivers and liars, for scriptures do teach the very opposite Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Now if God hates all the workers of iniquity, then they could not have been of that People of sinners that God so Loved Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners [ workers of iniquity], Christ died for us.

Now, if these are the same as those in Ps 5:5, we have a major contradiction, so to avoid such, it is plainly taught that God does not Love all sinners, for some, as per Ps 5:5 He does hate, and they shall not stand in the day of Judgment, they have no Saviour provided for them ! As God's Love is Immutable and not subject to change, so is His hate for some immutable and not subject to change, for just as His Church is Loved with an everlasting love, His enemies are hated with an everlasting hatred as the edomites symbolized Mal 1:4

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

They are the people of God's curse unto Judgment Isa 34:5

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

They all shall hear in the Great day Matt 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Rhema]

Here is how God loves all men.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ​

(Matthew 5:43-48 KJV)

"Perfect" is a very bad word choice for G5046 τέλειος teleios, so I provide a:
LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon for teleios

A. entire, without spot or blemish​

3. of persons, accomplished, in relation to quality​

We are to Love all men entirely, without spot or blemish, as our Father which is in heaven loves all men entirely, without spot or blemish. Anything else is Gymnastic Semantics - and very imperfect, leaning not on Jesus, but upon the words of other people.

Rhema