The Purpose of Damnation as Punishment

[Kirby D. P.]

Indeed.

 

[RJ]

Indeed.

Now I know you a little better Kirby, would it be o.k. for me to say that, for some reason, you are not 100% sold out to Atheism?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Absolutely. I have met atheists who insist that they "know" there "can't" be a God -- kind of an arrogant position to take, I think. I simply have no belief in any god, or anything supernatural. But I am ravenously driven to know everything I can about the nature of the universe. If God and Jesus might be a part (indeed, the biggest part) of that, I definitely want to know and to understand their nature.

Full disclosure: life everlasting (in bliss or anguish) is of secondary (or even lower) importance to me. As a materialist and an empiricist, I came to terms with the notion of my own mortality a long time ago. I might enjoy life everlasting... but I might not. If there were a just and loving God, I would gladly serve Him with every bit of enthusiasm I could, even if I knew for certain that my last day of material life was to be the end of my existence.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Yeah. I actually don't think (or, at least I THINK I don't think) that anything has any intrinsic purpose. For some reason that doesn't keep me from seeing life as wonderful and full of (non-supernatural) magic.

I don't believe in the supernatural or magic either and a miracle is simply a natural occurrence that we may not fully comprehend(anomaly)
Do you believe that the placebo effect is real?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I’m convinced the placebo effect is real. But I don’t consider it anything supernatural or even demonstrating any type of dualist (soul vs. body) condition. I believe it is efficacious with highly subjective conditions (physical pain, feelings of wellness or weakness) and becomes less so the closer a condition is prone to a binary outcome. For instance, I don’t think any placebo will ever regrow a lost limb.

As for miracles, I think the universe abounds with miracles. But nothing supernatural. For instance, I consider the beaches on the Monterey peninsula in California miracles. And nothing can hold a candle to the miracle of my kids.

I even consider certain unlikely events miracles. For instance, back in the 2004 tsunami, the media made a big deal about the miracle of the man who survived by climbing a tree. And, I agree, to him it WAS a miracle. Because, statistically, in that situation, it was much more likely that he would have died with the other 230,000 innocent men, women and children who perished in the disaster.

On the other hand, if there is a God who either does, or who has the ability to, intervene in the physical affairs of the Earth, then (to me) this is no miracle at all. In that case, the man surviving up in a tree is no miracle, it’s just that God either created or permitted a horrendous disaster that killed 230,000 and one simply got away.

In a nutshell, this is a major part of my reason for atheism. The old chestnut from Epicurus: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

I haven’t come across any theology, apologetics or science to adequately give an answer other than there is no God. I think it would be exciting and interesting if there WAS one. But I just don’t, so far, find any convincing evidence for.

 

[Itz Me]

Hi! 'ThisCrossHurts"
I wish you to know that I'm happily not included in the group which you've described: "They think I'm crazy,but love Jesus so they tolerate me"
Unfortunately, it's very true that a lot of Christians hold the view that God hasn't spoken to His Church for centuries ... at least since the Reformation of the 1600's. I suspect that, even if God Himself were to raise up another Stephen in our present day, he'd be stoned as a Christian heretic.
A lot of sincere and earnest Christians seem to be content to remain habitual ideologues and doctrinal parrots ... held captive to the teachings of religious ancestors from so long ago. While it's true that Ideologues can be exceedingly loyal and parrots can be excellent mimics, they're poor substitutes for seeking truth with an earnest listening ear.
It's refreshing to read that you're discovering and daring to peer beyond the restraints of traditional / denominational thinking.
To be perfectly honest, the single reason why I visit Forums such as these is to have two questions answered: One, "Has God Spoken?" and two "What did He say?"
When I bump into the mind-set that you have, I'm greatly encouraged.

 

[Itz Me]

I’m convinced the placebo effect is real. But I don’t consider it anything supernatural or even demonstrating any type of dualist (soul vs. body) condition. I believe it is efficacious with highly subjective conditions (physical pain, feelings of wellness or weakness) and becomes less so the closer a condition is prone to a binary outcome. For instance, I don’t think any placebo will ever regrow a lost limb.

As for miracles, I think the universe abounds with miracles. But nothing supernatural. For instance, I consider the beaches on the Monterey peninsula in California miracles. And nothing can hold a candle to the miracle of my kids.

I even consider certain unlikely events miracles. For instance, back in the 2004 tsunami, the media made a big deal about the miracle of the man who survived by climbing a tree. And, I agree, to him it WAS a miracle. Because, statistically, in that situation, it was much more likely that he would have died with the other 230,000 innocent men, women and children who perished in the disaster.

On the other hand, if there is a God who either does, or who has the ability to, intervene in the physical affairs of the Earth, then (to me) this is no miracle at all. In that case, the man surviving up in a tree is no miracle, it’s just that God either created or permitted a horrendous disaster that killed 230,000 and one simply got away.

In a nutshell, this is a major part of my reason for atheism. The old chestnut from Epicurus: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

I haven’t come across any theology, apologetics or science to adequately give an answer other than there is no God. I think it would be exciting and interesting if there WAS one. But I just don’t, so far, find any convincing evidence for.

Hi! 'Kirby D. P.'
Ummm, your expressed opinion above reveals the certainty that you've ascribed to God qualities and attributes which do not belong to Him.
God does NOT commit evil ... God is only and perfectly good.
You should have learned that from being a natural father to your children. The very last thing you'd ever what your children to be thinking is that you are willing to commit evil towards them ... right? It would be a profane insult to you as their father to have to bear such an false accusation ... yet, the same principle applies to your 'heavenly Father'.
God does no evil .. none whatsoever. What God knows about evil is from what He has observed and become acquainted with. God is not the originator of evil.
Remember that verse you asked about in an earlier Thread ... ? ... about "You shall be as God, knowing both good and evil" ??? Well, I suggest that you read that verse again ... what does that mean when it uses the word "knowing" ... ?? Well, for the very reason that this was the first recorded lie of human existence ... the evil one was lying when he implied that God "knew" evil ... in the sense of having a relationship with it ... an intimacy with it. God has no connection with origin of evil at all.
The lie uttered in the Garden is equivalent to your neighbor telling your children that you were actively seeking evil against them. Of course you don't. But that doesn't mean that you're not aware of the evil which surrounds and threatens them.
And, another thing:
Doesn't your pay-check carry both the name of your employer and isn't it also signed by him? Of course it is.
Why is that?
Well, simply because you worked for him and deservedly are duly paid by him ... right?
Now, recall these two verses: "Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that leads to sin that leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness?” "Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him"; "Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience." (Rom 6:16; 4:4; Heb 2:2)."
So, why should God pay wages to those who work for the evil one? That duty belongs to the evil one alone ... not God. While it;s true that the "wages of sin is death" ... God isn't the One who demands to pay this sum ... it's the evil one. The individual who was employed by the evil one to commit sin is also paid by the evil one.
I've often wondered what can meet the needs of these who suffer the hysterics of a divine vengeance. What words would be sufficient to deliver them out from under the oppressive fears of receiving punishment and revenge at the hands of their God? Frankly, I don't believe there are any. Why? Because the Bible states that one must first determine that God exists before he can hope to receive anything from Him; “For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”, Hebrews 11:6.
There might be those who would protest and say: "I believe God exists!" To which I would reply, “The God whom you imagine in your fearful hearts, the God whom you confess as desiring to punish and heap revenge upon every living thing, does not exist.


.

 

[RJ]

Absolutely. I have met atheists who insist that they "know" there "can't" be a God -- kind of an arrogant position to take, I think. I simply have no belief in any god, or anything supernatural. But I am ravenously driven to know everything I can about the nature of the universe. If God and Jesus might be a part (indeed, the biggest part) of that, I definitely want to know and to understand their nature.

Full disclosure: life everlasting (in bliss or anguish) is of secondary (or even lower) importance to me. As a materialist and an empiricist, I came to terms with the notion of my own mortality a long time ago. I might enjoy life everlasting... but I might not. If there were a just and loving God, I would gladly serve Him with every bit of enthusiasm I could, even if I knew for certain that my last day of material life was to be the end of my existence.

I will take that as a No, you are not sold out to Atheism 100%!

• I am 66. I was raised up in a God believing environment. I was " sprinkled" after birth and baptized at age 7, spent some time in Sunday School, but that was about it. I knew the possibility of a God and of a Jesus, but we never talked much about Jesus in those days. After marriage, I spent about 30 years in the same church. Because of my wife, by two sons were raised up in that church, but I was an infrequent participant, and we never talked about Jesus very much in my home . I was Born Again in 2004, when I was 54. I would like to preface this by saying that all this time of being an unbeliever, through high school, college, military service and 28 years at my previous job, I have always been considered very level headed with my share of common sense, never followed the crowd. I was an independent thinker and other than my family, I had everything and didn't much else. Please understand that a true unbeliever is marked by not having Jesus living in him.Long story short, I realize I was missing something in my life, he knocked, I opened and he came in, and everything in my past was history. Now, with in my human limitations, I now know God and I know Jesus.
• For you, if you will , at least, somewhat acknowledge that you are seeking, I would say it is a very good chance that Jesus is knocking on your door right now. What we must figure out, is how do we get you to sense that, open the door of your heart, invite him in and give him a chance.
• The Bible and Jesus in me is sufficient, but I know you yearn for some physical proof because you are not capable of spiritual things right now, here is just one: My son is an Engineer with a Masters in mathematics and he tells me that, anything under the sun can be proven mathematically. That is beyond my job description, but I believe him! So, go research a Dr. of mathematics, a Dr. Peter Stoner . He did a mathematical probability that Jesus was not real, based on the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. According to scripture, Jesus completed hundreds of prophecies.DR. Stoner stopped at only 8 . Out of only 8, he calculated that probability is 1in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That's one in one hundred quadrillion that Jesus was not who he said he was.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi, ITZ ME.

You’ve zeroed in on my dilemma. I find God’s nature curious BECAUSE I would never visit evil upon my children and I see a great deal of evil in the world and have (until now) been taught that God is responsible for everything, bar none.

If I take you correctly, Adam and Eve created (or at least “introduced”) evil in the world through their transgression in the Garden of Eden. And prior to this God had nothing to do with it nor had He anticipated it. In light of the grave impact of evil upon creation ever since, that apparent shortsightedness conflicts with notions of God’s perfection. He may not have comprehended evil before the eating of the fruit, but if not then he is (or was) certainly not omniscient.

Moreover, Adam and Eve’s birthing of evil in the world can only have been an innocent crime. I know this is not a new argument, but (obviously) they had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil prior to the crime of unlawfully acquiring that knowledge.

But the scriptures are unequivocal about God’s capacity and historic readiness to punish sin; the Expulsion, the Noaic flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah being the cornerstones of the Old Testament penal code.

But more than this, at least in the strict context of literal scripture, even if God did not “know” evil before Adam and Eve, he certainly has no compunction about dealing in evil and with Satan by the time of the Patriarchs. Just before he loses his gamble with Satan, God boasts that Job still cleaves to faith, “…though you [Satan] incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3) The scriptures have no problem calling a spade a spade after Satan wins his bet when they describe how Job’s surviving kinsmen (few though they must have been by this point) gathered and, “comforted him over all the EVIL that the LORD had brought upon him.” (Job 42:11, KJV) (emphasis added)

I know other translations use words like “trials,” “adversities,” etc., etc. Let’s set aside Job’s individual person for the moment. These “adversities” include the unprovoked slaying of all of Job’s children and all his household staff, save the few messengers who survived to bring Job the bad news. God Himself acknowledges that he conducted these tragedies “without cause.”

In order to not call this “evil” (when at least some translations of the Bible do), I would have to totally revise my understanding of what evil is. If you suggest that it isn’t evil because it is God’s handiwork and God cannot cause evil, naturally I’ll counter that God is supposed to be the initial cause of everything, hence: evil inclusive… and we’ll just be talking past each other.

As to the “wages” metaphor suggested in the verses from Romans and Hebrews you quote, within the metaphor, there is still a master who pays the wages; though the laborer may be entitled to them, the master is not an unmotivated automaton. Stepping outside the metaphor, in Hebrews, the verse goes on to elaborate that, “Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control.” (Heb 2:8) There is some logic to the notion that the wages of sin are paid by he whom the commission of sin benefits, ostensibly Satan; but even Satan’s function is subsumed under the umbrella of God’s order.

Finally, the Romans 6 verse leads to one of the reasons why, if I ever DO come to believe that God exists, I’ll still have a major problem. Because Rom 6:22 explains how the faithful are SLAVES to God and, so, in Rom 6:23 we “earn”(?) the wages of God’s “free gift”(?!!) of eternal life.

Slaves, by definition, don’t work for wages. And a “free gift” that must be earned through abject servitude is in no wise “free.”

We’re getting a bit beyond my original hope to get a better understanding of God’s use of and purposes in punishment. But these do go to the apparent inconsistencies within all the Abrahamic faiths.

I am definitely not trying to ascribe to God any false attributes. But I do keep running into these inconsistencies which, to me, suggest that no human does (or maybe even can) comprehend His attributes accurately. If He exists at all.

 

[RJ]

Hi, ITZ ME.

You’ve zeroed in on my dilemma. I find God’s nature curious BECAUSE I would never visit evil upon my children and I see a great deal of evil in the world and have (until now) been taught that God is responsible for everything, bar none.

If I take you correctly, Adam and Eve created (or at least “introduced”) evil in the world through their transgression in the Garden of Eden. And prior to this God had nothing to do with it nor had He anticipated it. In light of the grave impact of evil upon creation ever since, that apparent shortsightedness conflicts with notions of God’s perfection. He may not have comprehended evil before the eating of the fruit, but if not then he is (or was) certainly not omniscient.

Moreover, Adam and Eve’s birthing of evil in the world can only have been an innocent crime. I know this is not a new argument, but (obviously) they had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil prior to the crime of unlawfully acquiring that knowledge.

But the scriptures are unequivocal about God’s capacity and historic readiness to punish sin; the Expulsion, the Noaic flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah being the cornerstones of the Old Testament penal code.

But more than this, at least in the strict context of literal scripture, even if God did not “know” evil before Adam and Eve, he certainly has no compunction about dealing in evil and with Satan by the time of the Patriarchs. Just before he loses his gamble with Satan, God boasts that Job still cleaves to faith, “…though you [Satan] incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3) The scriptures have no problem calling a spade a spade after Satan wins his bet when they describe how Job’s surviving kinsmen (few though they must have been by this point) gathered and, “comforted him over all the EVIL that the LORD had brought upon him.” (Job 42:11, KJV) (emphasis added)

I know other translations use words like “trials,” “adversities,” etc., etc. Let’s set aside Job’s individual person for the moment. These “adversities” include the unprovoked slaying of all of Job’s children and all his household staff, save the few messengers who survived to bring Job the bad news. God Himself acknowledges that he conducted these tragedies “without cause.”

In order to not call this “evil” (when at least some translations of the Bible do), I would have to totally revise my understanding of what evil is. If you suggest that it isn’t evil because it is God’s handiwork and God cannot cause evil, naturally I’ll counter that God is supposed to be the initial cause of everything, hence: evil inclusive… and we’ll just be talking past each other.

As to the “wages” metaphor suggested in the verses from Romans and Hebrews you quote, within the metaphor, there is still a master who pays the wages; though the laborer may be entitled to them, the master is not an unmotivated automaton. Stepping outside the metaphor, in Hebrews, the verse goes on to elaborate that, “Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control.” (Heb 2:8) There is some logic to the notion that the wages of sin are paid by he whom the commission of sin benefits, ostensibly Satan; but even Satan’s function is subsumed under the umbrella of God’s order.

Finally, the Romans 6 verse leads to one of the reasons why, if I ever DO come to believe that God exists, I’ll still have a major problem. Because Rom 6:22 explains how the faithful are SLAVES to God and, so, in Rom 6:23 we “earn”(?) the wages of God’s “free gift”(?!!) of eternal life.

Slaves, by definition, don’t work for wages. And a “free gift” that must be earned through abject servitude is in no wise “free.”

We’re getting a bit beyond my original hope to get a better understanding of God’s use of and purposes in punishment. But these do go to the apparent inconsistencies within all the Abrahamic faiths.

I am definitely not trying to ascribe to God any false attributes. But I do keep running into these inconsistencies which, to me, suggest that no human does (or maybe even can) comprehend His attributes accurately. If He exists at all.

Well, then I have no idea why you are here. Whether you believe in him or not, I say God Bless and the best of wishes for what ever it is you are searching for!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Thanks. I do appreciate your time and consideration. Bless you, as well.

 

[RJ]

Thanks. I do appreciate your time and consideration. Bless you, as well.

That is the way it has always been with God, it is your choice, you live with it or you die with it!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

In a nutshell, this is a major part of my reason for atheism. The old chestnut from Epicurus: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

That's kind of a religious question asked from a religious belief system.
The double slit experiment suggests both happened but the observer only experienced one of them.
But it also suggests that it never happened at all but the possibility that it could means it had to.
Hell,death sickness and disaster is our illusion not God's.
We have simply dragged God into it.Then we blamed him for the whole stinking rotten mess.
Oh,forgive us...

Let's try not to judge eternal things with temporal information.
The placebo effect requires only a reasonable expectation of an outcome so it's easy to see that curing a cold or even a tumor seems more reasonable
to our human thinking than growing a limb.In eternity there is no measurement so big anomalies are just as likely as small ones.(Anomalies can't happen in eternity but maybe at the event horizon of eternity they can).

Jesus said all who came before him were thieves and robbers but the sheep did not listen to them.
Jesus was hung between thieves and I think they represent more than one thing.
The past and future are an illusion and rob us of truth.
The old testament said that Moses talked with God on the mountain but the new testament says that he spoke to an angel.
The old testament view of God was more like a machine or like DOS on a computer,all rules and no mercy.
Jesus said that God is love.
Jesus called God "Father" which was a major and apparently uncomfortable shift in mentality for the pious Jews but a welcome
revelation to the poor.
Religion portrays God as a drunken schizophrenic Father that can't be known or loved,only feared.
Even kids know that is not love.

I haven’t come across any theology, apologetics or science to adequately give an answer other than there is no God. I think it would be exciting and interesting if there WAS one. But I just don’t, so far, find any convincing evidence for.

When science says nature did something what exactly is nature?
In your dreams there are people but they are really just you.
They are different perspectives of the same being.
In you they live and move and have there being.
Scripture says that in him we live and move and have our being.
In a certain place God said" I am God and there is none else".
There is no evidence in my dreams that all the beings are using a common consciousness but there is proof in this world that we share a common consciousness.
That proof is the double slit experiment.

 

[Chad]

The idea that someone should be sent to hell for mere unbelief is ludicrous. As there is not the slightest bit of verifiable proof a deity does exist, to disbelieve is the default position, imo.

Prove God doesn't exist.

 

[Chad]

@Kirby D. P.

Please read these. They will give you a proper perspective and insight.

Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical

I can't believe in a God who would send people to hell

A loving God would never send anyone to hell

How is Hell a fair punishment for sin?

 

[Itz Me]

Hi, ITZ ME.

You’ve zeroed in on my dilemma. I find God’s nature curious BECAUSE I would never visit evil upon my children and I see a great deal of evil in the world and have (until now) been taught that God is responsible for everything, bar none.

If I take you correctly, Adam and Eve created (or at least “introduced”) evil in the world through their transgression in the Garden of Eden. And prior to this God had nothing to do with it nor had He anticipated it. In light of the grave impact of evil upon creation ever since, that apparent shortsightedness conflicts with notions of God’s perfection. He may not have comprehended evil before the eating of the fruit, but if not then he is (or was) certainly not omniscient.

Moreover, Adam and Eve’s birthing of evil in the world can only have been an innocent crime. I know this is not a new argument, but (obviously) they had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil prior to the crime of unlawfully acquiring that knowledge.

But the scriptures are unequivocal about God’s capacity and historic readiness to punish sin; the Expulsion, the Noaic flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah being the cornerstones of the Old Testament penal code.

But more than this, at least in the strict context of literal scripture, even if God did not “know” evil before Adam and Eve, he certainly has no compunction about dealing in evil and with Satan by the time of the Patriarchs. Just before he loses his gamble with Satan, God boasts that Job still cleaves to faith, “…though you [Satan] incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3) The scriptures have no problem calling a spade a spade after Satan wins his bet when they describe how Job’s surviving kinsmen (few though they must have been by this point) gathered and, “comforted him over all the EVIL that the LORD had brought upon him.” (Job 42:11, KJV) (emphasis added)

I know other translations use words like “trials,” “adversities,” etc., etc. Let’s set aside Job’s individual person for the moment. These “adversities” include the unprovoked slaying of all of Job’s children and all his household staff, save the few messengers who survived to bring Job the bad news. God Himself acknowledges that he conducted these tragedies “without cause.”

In order to not call this “evil” (when at least some translations of the Bible do), I would have to totally revise my understanding of what evil is. If you suggest that it isn’t evil because it is God’s handiwork and God cannot cause evil, naturally I’ll counter that God is supposed to be the initial cause of everything, hence: evil inclusive… and we’ll just be talking past each other.

As to the “wages” metaphor suggested in the verses from Romans and Hebrews you quote, within the metaphor, there is still a master who pays the wages; though the laborer may be entitled to them, the master is not an unmotivated automaton. Stepping outside the metaphor, in Hebrews, the verse goes on to elaborate that, “Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control.” (Heb 2:8) There is some logic to the notion that the wages of sin are paid by he whom the commission of sin benefits, ostensibly Satan; but even Satan’s function is subsumed under the umbrella of God’s order.

Finally, the Romans 6 verse leads to one of the reasons why, if I ever DO come to believe that God exists, I’ll still have a major problem. Because Rom 6:22 explains how the faithful are SLAVES to God and, so, in Rom 6:23 we “earn”(?) the wages of God’s “free gift”(?!!) of eternal life.

Slaves, by definition, don’t work for wages. And a “free gift” that must be earned through abject servitude is in no wise “free.”

We’re getting a bit beyond my original hope to get a better understanding of God’s use of and purposes in punishment. But these do go to the apparent inconsistencies within all the Abrahamic faiths.

I am definitely not trying to ascribe to God any false attributes. But I do keep running into these inconsistencies which, to me, suggest that no human does (or maybe even can) comprehend His attributes accurately. If He exists at all.

Hi! 'Kirby D. P'
Before relating personal details about myself and Christian experience, I need you to know that I'm not anything near a 'super-duper' Christian or anything as such. I'm jus' an ordinary guy who's enjoying an intensely rewarding and life-changing experience. In other words, what I've discovered and learned about God has mostly been through some desperate stumbling and my urgent need to be relieved of unforgiving inner injuries and years of painful confusion.
I was born with a severe facial deformity. From a very early age, my parents had counselled that I should somehow be thankful that God had elected to burden me with the affliction ... portraying the deformity as something near a 'godly gift'. While entering my teen years, the matter of my deformity had began to viciously consume me from the inside out.
It was during my early 20's when I was first introduced to the Gospel and learned that God was inviting me to start my life anew ... that I could put my suffocating inner turmoil and self-destruction into a forgiven past ... and I jumped at this opportunity with hysterical relief.
However, my lack of possessing a healthy image of an earthly father for myself caused me considerable inner conflict.
During my childhood years, the cruelty of my parents had become increasingly painful.which, by my teen years, had carved a festering wound into the very core of my being. For instance, I recall my father lamenting on more than a few occasions, "When a cow delivers a deformed calf, it's best to kill both the cow and the calf!".
As you might imagine, in short time my enthusiastic hopes about God and delight with having a 'second chance' morphed into a horrible disappointment. So much so, that one late night I found myself walking down a street and peering at the skies and tearfully shouting, "I can't live with you nor without you!"
I was finding it exceedingly difficult to trust a heavenly Father whom I suspected to be behaving in similar manner as my earthly parents. I imagined God too could one day place my hands into the burning coals of a furnace, (as my mother had done). and then afterwards bandage my blistered fingers with tears streaming down her face.
Therefore, it became expressly urgent for me to discover the truth about who God is and what He's really like.
Because of my multiple inconsistencies and disastrous failures during this turbulent search, nearly all my Christian acquaintances and friends eventually abandoned me ... tagging me as a 'back-slider'. I can't say that I blame them ... no, not in the least! (Although, I must say that I found it especially hurtful that my Pastor eventually disowned me too).
The most daring and rewarding turn-around arrived with the birth of my son. This event forced me to face the fact that I was now a 'father' too and that I needed to behave with justice and mercy enveloped in love ... just as my heavenly Father had declared of Himself.
Now, 'Kirby D. P', I don't want you to think that I'm some kinna' looney-tune by telling you about this following event:
My wife decided to abscond with our two year old child. When he was four years old, a government agency telephoned me and said, "Your son can no longer continue under the custody of his mother; you have 24 hours to pick him up or we will".
I knelt down the day before my son was to arrive and asked ... no, begged! ... God to please help me be a good father. The very last thing I wanted to be found doing was repeating the same cruelty and abuse of my own earthly parents.
My son arrived the next day. (Thankfully, I had remained single during the interim of his life with his mother).
I quickly learned that my son was greatly disturbed and emotionally damaged after having suffered mental and physical abuse at the hands of his mother. At four years of age, he was having extreme difficulty with toilet training which was causing havoc with all sorts of things ... including his attendance at Day Care.
Shamefully, I 'instinctively' behaved and responded to the situation as my own earthly parents would have.
After my son had repeatedly 'promised' me that he would stop soiling his clothing, I angrily escorted him to the laundry basket and, while retrieving each of soiled incidents and throwing them down at his feet, I said, "There's a useless promise ... and, another one too!"
I then saw that my son was standing there staring at the floor and soiled clothing ... totally crushed.
This didn't settle well with me. I knew that I must have been doing something dreadfully wrong. So, I momentarily left my son standing there and hurried into the living room and threw myself on the couch and whispered aloud, "What am I to do, God?"
I don;t know how to properly describe what occurred next except to assure you that the facts stated remain very true:
I 'heard' a 'voice' quietly asking, "Do I treat YOU like that when you do something wrong?"
My whispered answer was, "No!"
The 'voice' continued saying, "You have to tell him that he can do better ... that he's indeed capable of keeping his promises ... and that you'll do it together and help him through it all".
That's exactly what I said when I returned back to find my son still standing there totally lost in shame and rejection.
A lot happened since that day when God first intervened concerning my lack of parenting skills. The most poignant moment of it all was when my son, (who was near five at the time). frustratingly stomped his feet and tearfully said, "Even when your're angry, you still love me!".
'Kirby D. P', there's so much more that I could add to your comments above ... including your statement, "The scriptures are unequivocal about God’s capacity and historic readiness to punish sin" ... but I don't wish to be flooding this Thread.

 

[Itz Me]

Prove God doesn't exist.

Hi! 'Chad'
The original Thread read something like this:
CONIFER: "The idea that someone should be sent to hell for mere unbelief is ludicrous. As there is not the slightest bit of verifiable proof a deity does exist, to disbelieve is the default position, imo".
CHAD: Prove God doesn't exist.
Ummm, an individual's concept of God ... their ideas about who He is and how He behaves ... His attributes and character ... is what should be determined first.
There seems to be a lot of sincere Christians in these days who have unwittingly attached themselves to an image of God which does not exist.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

If He exists at all.

You are proof that He exists.

 

[Itz Me]

You are proof that He exists.

Many of these when I read your comment:

 

[BeccaMeri]

Hello.

A friendly atheist here. (I promise, not trolling for a fight – just some thoughtful Christian perspective.)

My wife and I have two kids. We punish them as part of their upbringing (nothing physical). As far as I can figure, there are only two reasons (and they are admittedly related) why we do:

1. Negative conditioning to correct a misbehavior so that misbehavior acquires bad associations, hence reducing the appeal of repeating that misbehavior in the future.

2. The threat of punishment as a means of deterrence from any particular misbehavior, whether or not this misbehavior has ever been exhibited.

When either of my children misbehave in some way that has wronged a third party, my wife and I see to it that they make amends. However, we do not teach that this is part of their “punishment,” but, instead, a responsibility they bear for the consequences of their misbehavior. An understanding we hope they internalize and carry with them into adulthood.

The “punishment” aspect to their upbringing, then, is simply a training method. When they reach adulthood, and become subject to full responsibility for all their actions and decisions, my wife and I have no intention of “punishing” them from that point onward.

I have read and heard Christian thinkers explain that divine punishment for the unrepentant sinner is akin to a loving parent punishing a wayward child. In that vein, I don’t understand how damnation (whether it be consignment to a literal Hell, with eternal torment we would physically equate to torture, or simply eternal expulsion from God’s presence) parallels either reason why I, as a parent, punish my children. Obviously, the purpose of reason #1 (aversion through conditioning) does not apply because one does not have a second chance to accept Christ once damnation has been sentenced. #2 (deterrence) may be a closer analog, except when I punish my children, even if it is to follow through on a threat that was originally intended as pure deterrence, it is still designed to guide future behavior. And, as I have said, once my children are capable of (and obligated to) their own personal responsibility, my interest in (and the efficacy of) deterrent punishment is useless.

Hence, what is the efficacy of damnation purely as a deterrence? If it fails to deter any single individual from refusing acceptance of Christ prior to Judgement, it can never be applied to that person again.

Finally, the notion of damnation-as-justice doesn’t seem to apply either. As I said, when my wife and I mete out justice to our children, it is so they can make reparations for whatever “crime” or “infraction” they commit. But once that “debt to society” is paid, our children earn full reinstatement in whatever rights to which they (such as a six- and a nine-year-old) are entitled. Justice is a restoration to a peaceful, egalitarian order.

So (thanks if you’ve read this far), where is my disconnect? Is the analogy between parental love and God’s love for His Creation just not a very good one? Or are my motives in, and criteria for, using punishment to discipline my children confused?

PS – For those of you who believe that damnation is not literal torment in a lake of fire, but simply eternal separation from the Grace and glory of God, what is your understanding of how that separation is different (i.e.: worse) than physical life on earth?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

-------- God only punishes his children by using the enemy. If we sin, we must be punished. That is where satan comes in. God protects his children continually all the time, his hand of protection is stayed upon us. But when we do bad he really can't protect us in that area. We have basically sinned and if we don't repent, there has to be some kind of punishment so that is when satan is allowed to torment us. That is when, he has authority to harm (with in reason of what God allows) us because we sinned. He is only used as a pawn to correct us. So at that point when we might be up to our neck in debt, lost our jobs and evil seems to be happening all around, that person will (hopefully) repent for what they did and then God can protect them again because they've repented so now the door is closed on the enemy and he has no right to hurt God's children anymore. In the end, the child has repented and learned a good lesson. We are not sent to enteral separation, but for sure life on earth is not going to be great. [However, this does not mean once saved always saved. For those who willingly give theirselves' over to satan (even though they once received Christ) If you willingly leave God, God will protect your choice and you can leave. One third of the angels did the same thing.] But for those who choose God they are saved and shall always be with God. {Read Hebrews 10, just a suggestion }

God does not punish his children with eternal separation.
That concerns which kingdom you belong to. You either belong to the Kingdom of light or belong to the kingdom of darkness. I'm just so thankful for Jesus, he saved me and I've just been glad to be free and in the Kingdom of light now Believing in Him was the best choice I ever made. It's simple, think about that.

----oh and answering your question about why eternal separation from God is different from (or much worse than) physical life on earth. To start, everything good came from God. Everything good is God. Earth was initially made and filled with good. Even though sin was allowed entrance and the earth began to die, the earth still has some good attributes and filled with good. Today there is evil and good on earth; anyone can see that. Now eternal separation from God is worse because like I said God is all things good. So minus God means, no love, peace, joy, yummy fruit, vibrant colors, light, life, etc. Until all that is left is darkness and all things bad. There is a kingdom of God and a kingdom of darkness, with God or without. That is just it. At least on earth we still experience good, but without God, all that is left is bad. We're living on the earth where we still have a chance to choose life or death, good or bad. Everyone living still has a chance.