The Rapture

[Sue D.]

Dave M. -- we're now in the age of grace -- not the law. Trying to answer your question -- one aspect of the 'job' of the Holy Spirit Now is to convict of sin, keeping power of every believer until we are with Jesus Christ for eternity. Everyone Now has the opportunity to hear, accept or reject. Since no one knows When Christ will come to gather His people up , it pays to make sure of our salvation Now. And those who don't know For Sure of their salvation Can know for sure. Thing is -- we don't really know How the Holy Spirit is going to be working once believers are up and out of 'here'. Non-believing Jews Will have their 2nd chance to accept Christ as their Promised Messiah. God will be showing His existence with all sorts of signs / activities. Doesn't sound like it will be a very nice time to be living in. It's been said that 'we think we're living in bad times Now, just wait until the Godly influence of believers is gone / the Holy Spirit' Then life will Really get 'interesting' but in a Bad way.

People Might be getting saved during that last 3 1/2 years -- the Left Behind series claims that people will be. I guess it makes sense that people Will come to Christ -- but they will probably die for their faith. Non-believers Will be having children who won't have had a chance To accept Christ. Those are probably the ones' who Will have a chance to accept to reject. And maybe it's during That future time that the two witnesses will be present. Revelation Does tell us they will be existing. To Me, people who spend lots of time speculating / trying to figure out who 'they' will be are wasting time -- 'we' need to be sharing Now.

 

[lecoope]

so what part of tribulation are the two witnesses in ? when they die there bodies lie in the street for 3.5 days, when they witness they witness for 3.5 years I think, lots of 3.5 stuff going on in tribulation.

when does the beast come out of the water they speak of?? at the end of 3.5 years or the beginning of tribulation?

thanks

The two witness show up just before the midpoint of the week - exactly where John is in his narrative in chapter 11. My guess is, 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews. They will then testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will be killed and lay dead for those 3.5 days, then be raised up with all the rest of the Old Testament saints. Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology.

In other words, most of their time will be during the second half of the week. God will have 144,000 witnesses in the first half.

EVERY mention of an event in Revelation that mentions the 3.5 years, whether given in days or months or years, is for the second half of the week.

The 7th trumpet will mark the time in heaven when the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That is the exact midpoint of the week. Declaring himself as God, I presume, will open him up for Satanic possession. Satan is cast out of heaven at the midpoint, so when he is cast down, will possess the man of sin and he, the man of sin, will become the Beast of Rev. 13. So he will "raise up" right after the midpoint. In other words, in the MIDDLE of the week. This is proven by the fact that He then gets 42 months of authority.

 

[lecoope]

does this mean at a certain point during the tribulation, no one is saved any longer is there a time period referernce this?? such as people are still getting saved up to the first 3.5 years but not after????

God's love is very powerful. He loves even those that hate Him. I am convinced that the door to heaven will be open throughout the 70th week - but the only way into heaven then is to lose one's head. However, John shows us that some will make it through the week alive and if they pass the sheep and goat judgment, will take part in the Millennial reign as natural humans. They are referred to as "the nations."

 

[lecoope]

that was my entire point in posting two scriptures one points to people dying and the other points to people appearing, yet they are both in heaven, my real curiosity is why does it say came they out of the "great" tribulation instead of just the tribulation as my understanding is the "great" tribulation does not occur until after 3.5 years of the regular tribulation, but I agree these people before the throne do not have appeared to be killed like the people under the throne, giving the rapture much more evidence of happening.

You have asked a very good question! It is a question I will surely as Jesus when I get to heaven. Let me say this: John used those two words together, "great tribulation" in chapter 2, certainly not in reference to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Next, I think it is "great tribulation" when anyone is put to death because they love Jesus. It cannot be any greater for them: they cannot be killed again!

Some people claim this great crowd too large to number cannot be the raptured church because in the Greek, they came "one by one." Indeed, the rapture will be instantaneous, or nearly so - but the question was asked, who these are? The DID come out of GT "one by one" as each one was born again! AT that time they were pulled from the kingdom of the world and translated into the kingdom of God.

Then it is the great number: imagine all the generations from the day of Pentecost to today: we are talking billions of saints!

 

[Sue D.]

Maybe that 'great tribulation' refers to the entire 7 years of Great tribulation because we only Think we're living through tribulation Now. Tribulation means great problems. All the trials / problems that believers encounter will be all the worse because God is judging the non-believing Jews that have remained here after the rapture. When a person knows that taking a positive stand For a person will mean dying -- how many people actually Will verbally say that they believe in the living God and refuse to bow down to the AntiChrist. Or will take that stand for God when they know their loved one / children are being tortured.

I'd probably venture to say 'a great multitude' as Scripture says -- rather than the billions.

 

[Dave M]

yea I may just be wrongly hung up on thinking GREAT means the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. this is a great thread I have learned a ton. still a ton more to go. I do see a lot more scripture now pointing to a rapture before the second coming that is for sure.

 

[Sue D.]

yea I may just be wrongly hung up on thinking GREAT means the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. this is a great thread I have learned a ton. still a ton more to go. I do see a lot more scripture now pointing to a rapture before the second coming that is for sure.

The Great Tribulation Does refer to the 2nd 3 1/2 yrs. The Tribulation itself is the entire 7 yrs.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I wonder why this passage says "after" the tribulation, that's when He will appear in the sky. That's when He (His Angels) will "gather up" (rapture) the elect.
This is when the trumpet sounds. (verse 31)

It seems likely this is the same time frame as Thess 4.

1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There is also a trumpet here (verse 16). This when the dead in Christ, and those who are alive will be "caught up" (raptured) into the clouds.

 

[Dave M]

the last trumpet

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

the last trumpet being the 7th trumpet I think

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

[Dave M]

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

so what is the 4 winds to me it sounds more like heaven then earth, but I am unsure????

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Why do you guys and gals believe that every believer will be taken up at the pre great trib rapture event when Jesus has been warning believers to be ready or else, be left behind?

Churches are supposed to excommunicate those not abiding in Him, right? When they repent, they are allowed back in, right?

The pre great trib rapture is when God will judge His House first. Since scripture says this;

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Why would God do any less at the pre great trib rature event? Especially when churches were instructed not to eat with brethren that are in iniquity?

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Surely you can see why some unrepentant saints will be left behind for not being ready as abiding in Him as Jesus did warn in Luke 12:40-49?

He even warned believers to pray for an escape from the snares of this world including the cares of this life wherein a believer will feel bound or obligated to the cares of this life even more than leaving with the Bridegroom. Luke 21:33-36

Jesus warning implies that not every believer will heed His warnings to get ready nor pray to Him for help to be free from the snares of this life that they rest in Him to take them when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[Sue D.]

@JesusIs4Me -- because we Are to be ready spiritually for whenever Christ does return for His church. And He will be taking the Church up and out of this mess when He Does judge those who have been left behind. God's Word gives us plenty of warning and info as to how to accept Him as personal Savior. It's not wise to keep on putting off this personal decision.

Your term 'excommunicate' sounds kind of RCC. In the bible it's called church discipline. When people who are part of the local church are doing things that are obviously Not Godly , they Should be approached privately by someone who is concerned about them. In a loving, concerned manner. If That does not cause the person to make some changes, then two or more people are to contact that person In private and in a concerned, caring manner. In an effort to assist them in their Christian walk. And if That doesn't work -- by That time the offending person is usually leaving the church on their own, anyway. But, if Not, then they Can be taken before the church and be disciplined. But any of this should be done in the spirit of helping them conform to Godly living. What Kind of discipline would depend on the church's policies and what the person has done. And being restored to fellowship would depend on the individual circumstances. But That should be the goal. Very few churches do that anymore. People are accepted no matter what and no one wants to be the one to up-hold Godly Biblical morality or ethics. And as a result, lots of churches loose their spiritual strength and are merely existing. God's Word Can be a shining light in the local community IF we let it.

The rapture of the church is Not being done to judge them. It's to unite born-again believers with the Bride Groom / Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be taking place in heaven.
Those who have rejected Christ as their personal Savior /Messiah Will be judged during the 7 yrs of tribulation. Specifically the Jews.

That passage is warning believers that our Best friends are to be believers. But we Do live in this world. We have neighbors, family, co-workers // all sorts of people with all sorts of sins in their lives. We are Not to be joining in their life styles with them. If Those desires that the verse names, are part of our lives, then we'd better examine our own lives. Because That would indicate that no change has Personally taken place in our own life. And we Do have control of our actions.

A born-again believer Does have the Holy Spirit abiding in him. We Won't loose our salvation because we've committed a sin. There's no such thing as sinless perfection while we're here on earth. Satan will always be here bugging us to mess up. And once the Holy Spirit Is abiding in us, He Won't leave us until we are safely with Christ. It's called the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Eternal security.

As believers we Need to be in His Word frequently -- to strengthen us -- knowing His guidelines and following them. We need to be fellowshipping with other believers to lift up / strengthen each other.

 

[Sue D.]

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I wonder why this passage says "after" the tribulation, that's when He will appear in the sky. That's when He (His Angels) will "gather up" (rapture) the elect.
This is when the trumpet sounds. (verse 31)

It seems likely this is the same time frame as Thess 4.

1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There is also a trumpet here (verse 16). This when the dead in Christ, and those who are alive will be "caught up" (raptured) into the clouds.

That's one of the verses used for the post-trib. rapture. And that Matthew passage has been sort of ambiguous. But it doesn't fit with other passages. Because If Christ is returning to gather up the saints at the End -- and then returning With the saints for the 1,000 yr reign -- when is the marriage super of the Lamb going to take place. And when is Christ going to judge those who have been left behind -- those 7 yrs.

so, yes, some interesting questions. Those passages have been given to us to know what's going to happen in the future. We, personally, need to know where we stand spiritually.
Other events in life could 'take' us Before Christ returns. On the news the other day. In a neighborhood getting ready to watch the SuperBowl and plane looses control and crashes into a home killing the pilot and 4 adults in the house. Their life here on earth ended in a split second. No warning. Were They ready to meet Christ?

 

[Sue D.]

so what is the 4 winds to me it sounds more like heaven then earth, but I am unsure????

Sounds like from one end of the world to the other -- No one will be left behind -- All who are believers -- no matter Where they are living -- Will be taken up.

There Are 7 trumps that will sound and then there is the passage that says 'the trumpet will sound' or a sound Like trumpets sounding' and then the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive and remain will be gathered up. It's easy to get those passages / happenings confused.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@Sue D.

Thank you for your response.

Jesus did teach the meaning of excommunication as you will see in verse 17. Matthew 18:15-17

God did warn the church at Thyatira of the consequence for not repenting from their "spiritual" fornication which is to be cast into the bed of the great tribulation. Revelation 2:18-29

Jesus warned His disciples that any one not abiding in Him and in His word, will be cut off from the vine; John 15:1-6

It is not about being cast into eternal fire but facing the calamity of fire that is coming on the earth that will burn up one third of the earth; because those who are cut off to have their portions with the unbelievers are still called His servants, even though they are getting stripes, thus indicating that they are still His and thus saved, but have become vessels of dishonor for being left behind at the pre great trib rapture event Luke 12:40-49

Paul says there is more than the loss of reward of crowns, because one can become a castaway in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

So there are vessels unto honor in His House that will be received by the Bridegroom as abiding bride of Christ; and there will be those disqualified for not looking to Him for help to discern iniquity and thus to depart from iniquity for why they are vessels unto dishonor in His House. All those unrepentant saints found in iniquity that gets left behind are still saved as even Jesus still dwells in former believers for why they are called to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes. 2 Timothy 2:18-21

God is coming to judge His House first as per 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV as we can trust our faithful Creator in the keeping of the souls of those saints while they suffer being left behind to face the fire coming on the earth and as a result, the great tribulation.

So I do not see every one professing Him as being raptured when Jesus describes such ones in any iniquity are denying Him by that iniquity as that is what any iniquity does. Titus 1:16 That is why as workers of iniquity, they are denying Him for why He is denying them in Matthew 7:21-23 & Luke 13:24-30 2 Timothy 2:12 is why they are disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven, and yet He abides in them still as He does even in former believers in 2 Timothy 2:13

Hopefully you or someone else will see my concern for why our focus should be on the Bridegroom as our Good Shepherd in getting us ready and keeping us ready before He comes. 1 John 3:3,8 & 2 Timothy 4:18 & Jude 1:24-25

 

[Sue D.]

Our focus needs to be on sharing the Gospel of salvation with all who will listen. He is our Good Shepherd Only after we've asked Him to be our personal Savior.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Our focus needs to be on sharing the Gospel of salvation with all who will listen. He is our Good Shepherd Only after we've asked Him to be our personal Savior.

I hope you remind others of that when believers point to the Holy Spirit to receive Him again by a sign. Matthew 12:39 & Luke 11:9-13 & Matthew 9:17 & Ephesians 4:4-6 & 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

As it is, discipleship is about teaching new believers to learn about Him and His promises to them in being their Good Shepherd so they can rely on Him to help them to follow Him and be fruitful so that their joy may be full.

 

[Sue D.]

@JesusIsForMe -- those are all good passages you listed. But what they have to do with the Holy Spirit and a sign is beyond me. Some of the passages sort of apply and mostly don't.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIsForMe -- those are all good passages you listed. But what they have to do with the Holy Spirit and a sign is beyond me. Some of the passages sort of apply and mostly don't.

The bride of Christ ( the foolish virgins ) who preach another baptism with the Holy Ghost by the evidence of tongues or by the sign of tongues are committing spiritual adultery for why they are out to the market seeking to be filled with the oil. I apply Matthew 12:39 to that extra calling to be filled apart from salvation as becoming an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign as if 3 days & 3 nights in the earth before His resurrection is not enough.

Luke 11:9-13 is showing why and how seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is making the Father look evil as if He did not give the promise of the Holy Spirit the first time when they had knocked at the door of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 9:17 is a testimony from God how we are saved by Him as being a new creature in Christ, filled with the Holy Ghost and thus sealed and preserved as saved.

Ephesians 4:4-6 is pointing out there is only one hope of our calling and thus one calling by Whom we have all been baptized by which reproves any other calling for receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 reminds believers as opposed to those falling away from the faith for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation and even again and again. The traditions taught of us is, we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel; thus reproving any other calling as a lie for which the restraining was taken out of the way for how God will permit the strong delusion to occur on the wayward.

So I agree with you that the focus should be on the Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ, in worship and in fellowship and in prayer to avoid any calling to go out to the market seeking to be filled by putting the focus on the Holy Spirit in worship & prayer.

 

[Sue D.]

The Bride of Christ is the Church. The Church are all the born-again believers who will be raptured up by Christ and the Bride will be united with the Bridegroom for the Marriage Super of the Lamb.

The parable of the 10 virgins represents those who have been warned of the 'coming back of the Groom / Christ' and to be prepared for that. Referring to salvation.