The Russian was right

[beefy]

When one is in the military, one may engage in acts which are quite contrary to Jesus' words.

When Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you," how can one kill someone else and consider it to be doing them any good?

When Jesus says, "love your enemies," how can one love their enemy as they rip out their guts with a bayonet?

Some people who kill other people in their military occupation, really need to think about what they are doing.

These people who kill in the military make thousands of mothers childless, children fatherless, and countless untold numbers of grieving widows. There is nothing honorable about that. That is what these people are trained to do. Trained to kill. They bring pain, grief, and suffering to those caught in their wake, both the guilty and the innocent. And they grieve me as well.

In short, what I have to say is this. Jesus reached out to the fatherless and widows. These people who kill in the military and claim to follow Christ merely make more work for the following Christians who are out there reaching out to the families of all the insurgents and "terrorists" and innocent bystanders that the other "Christians" have killed.

To be Christian means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about taking anothers life just to save your own. Is their life worth less than the life of your family? Are they not just as loved by God as you? Is their life worth less than your country? Is their life worth less than your freedom?

No. God loves us, all of us. God forgave us when we deserved death. He took away the punishment for our transgressions. If we do not forgive our own transgressors in the same way, how then can we represent God's love to the world?

The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.

But what did they say? "To live is Christ and to die is gain." Death is gain, my friend.

In the words of the great Christian Leo Tolstoy, who was a lieutenant in the Russian army at one time...

"We must say that by whatever name people may call murder - murder always remains murder and a criminal and shameful thing.

With regard to those who voluntarily choose a military career, I would propose to state clearly and definitely that not withstanding all the pomp, glitter, and general approval with which it is surrounded, it is a criminal and shameful activity; and that the higher the position a man holds in the military profession the more criminal and shameful his occupation."

And a truly shameful occupation it is. Worthy to be rebuked and admonished.

 

[Trishann]

You would not have been able to speak those words or be able to live like you do, if the military did not fight for our freedom. Men and women die daily for your freedom.

If someone came into my house and threaten my family, you can guarantee, I would in all my power to keep them safe. Yes love your enemies but it doesn't say let everyone do as they please with you.

Trish

 

[beefy]

Of course you should not let them do whatever they please to you.

It doesn't mean you should kill them either.

Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. didn't let others do whatever they pleased to them. They stood up to injustice, and they did so nonviolently.

 

[alex franklin]

hi, beefy, i would like to differ with you ,kindly refer to Luke 3:14 where john the baptist tells a group of soldiers "soldiers also asked him," And we, what should we do ?" He said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation,and be satisfied with your wages."(NRSV). Kindly note that he made no mention of not killing others, also when Jesus healed the centurions servant (Luke 7:1-10) he made no mention of this fact,so there is nothing wrong in fighting to save your fellow citizens, in fact it is an honourable job as jesus himself says there is nothing greater than sacrificing your life for others.

Praise The Lord.

 

[Boanerges]

Of course you should not let them do whatever they please to you.

It doesn't mean you should kill them either.

Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. didn't let others do whatever they pleased to them. They stood up to injustice, and they did so nonviolently.

Either of these great men would have been crushed by Nazi Germany. If our brave men and women had not had stood up and fought you would not have the freedom to write this thread.
God never once condemns anyone for soldering and has commanded many battles to be fought His own self.

 

[beefy]

He said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation, and be satisfied with your wages.” (NRSV).

I noted that you are using one of those "new," and "revised" translations. Read the original translations instead.

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14 King James Version

The word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Notice that the entire system of war, and those participating, is about constantly putting others in fear. Terrifying people is something that war is perpetually in the business of doing. If nothing else is agitating to a people, war is most certainly agitating. If anything is gained by war, surely money, and that by intimidation and conquest. If anyone can kill a man in combat, then surely the combatants get shaken thorughly from thime to time. If anything makes one tremble, it is war, and the drums and soldiers of war, that do so.

Everything about war and its participants breaks this command, "Do violence to no man."

also when Jesus healed the centurions servant (Luke 7:10) he made no mention of this fact,

In the orignal translation it actually says "slave," not "servant."

Oh, and about that centurian. . .

From "A Practical Chrsitian pacifism"
in understanding the context of the words of Jesus, which, in this instance, focused on the great faith of the centurian who believed that his servant (slave) could be healed with a single word from Jesus. And what great faith that is.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that if soldiery was so bad, then how come he didn't tell the centurian to quit being a soldier?

"And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave. . . "

The centurion says to Jesus: ". . . I did not even consider myself worthy to come to You, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. . . "

". . . Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith. " When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health. "

There is a different issue which this passage could be appealled to by using the same arguement: if slavery was so bad, why didn't Jesus tell the centurion to quit owning slaves?

Such a point may seem silly beyond the need to consider to modern sensibilities, but such arguements were exactly the kinds used to defend slavery as little as a century ago.

The New Testament is filled with references to Christian slaves and slavery which doesn't paint it in a particularily negative light (Philippians 4:22, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-4:1). There is even a whole book of the New Testament, Paul's Epistle to Philemon, which is giving advice to a Christian slaveowner and the slave. Paul has advice on fulfilling the duty of slaves, permitting even Christians to have slaves and going on to say that to even debate the slavery issue is pointless quarrelling, as in this quote from the First Epistle to Timothy.

But Paul later wrote, correcting his error concerning slavery, in Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. "

Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower (Rome) can know God's grace. How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not. . . God's grace is for all people, even our enemies.

People saw through this pro-slavery argument in the past. And I see through your pro-soldiery argument today, in the present.

jesus himself says there is nothing greater than sacrificing your life for others.

Indeed, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

Isn't it interesting that he says "lay down his life" for his friends, and not "take another's life" for his friends?

Jesus told us to be kind to the evil. Jesus told us to love our enemies.

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:35-36

Either of these great men would have been crushed by Nazi Germany

Not a chance.

Perhaps you don't know of how nonviolence could save the Jews from Hitler because you have never considered it.

Have you not heard of the Orthodox pastor who saved lives of hundreds of Jews during the Holocaust?

They had the Jews down at the train station, and they had them in a barbed-wire enclosure. It was a rainy, misty night. Out of the darkness, at 11:00, the leader of the Orthodox church of Bulgaria, this seven foot four figure, with a long flowing white beard hanging over his black robe, emerges out of the fog. Can you imagine the drama of this? And then from behind him come about 300 of the members of his congregation. They say his gait, his walk was so fast, that the other men had to run just to keep up with him.

He came to the entrance of the barbed-wire enclosure, and the S.S. guard pointed their machine guns at him and said, "you can't go in there, father." He laughed at them. That's guts. Brushed the machine guns aside, and marched in among the Jews. They gathered around him, seeing what the Christian leader of Bulgaria had to say in their moment of distress, in their moment of need. They were crying, some of them were hysterical, they knew they were heading for Auschwitz, unless something miraculous happened. And something miraculous did.

The Christian leader raised his arms, quoted one verse of scripture, and changed the destiny of the nation. Here's the verse. Quoting from the book of Ruth, he said to the Jews, who were hysterical, knowing they were about to be carted off to Auschwitz to die. "Whither so ever thou goest, I will go. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God." Ruth 1:16

The Jews cheered. The Christians were outside the barbed-wire enclosure. They cheered. The noise was so great, that people came out of their houses, and started coming down in increasing numbers to the train station. The hundreds grew to thousands.

The S.S. troopers knew there was no way they were going to get away with rounding up these Jews and carrying them off to Auschwitz. The train left without the Jews, and never returned again. And not a single Jew ever died in the concentration camp, if he was a Bulgarian. Because the Church of Jesus Christ boldly stood up and said, "We're not going to kill enemy, we are going to identify with the suffering, and we will suffer with them." This is Jesus' way.

All the while this pastor obeyed Jesus' commands to "love your enemy," "do good to those that hate you," and to be "as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16

Will you imitate Jesus and follow His example?

God never once condemns anyone for soldering and has commanded many battles to be fought His own self.

On the contrary, David, a man of war, faced severe consequences for all the blood He shed on God's behalf. He wanted so dearly to build a temple for God, and God denied him.

"But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood." 1 Chronicles 28:3

First off, God commanded people to fight wars in the Old Testament. The words "Old Testament" literally means "Old Covenant." Look it up in the dictionary for proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."

Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.
What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant. Under this old covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocoties to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6

From the International Standard Version:

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old

"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his peoplewhen he said,

“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. " Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version, it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away. "

You see? The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete, including the "eye for an eye” doctrine..

“You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, that ye resist not evil.” Matthew 5:38-39

Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians. The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.

Don't get me wrong though. In the New Covenant, Jesus still upheld the Ten Commandments, on numerous occassions. But He said the greatest commandment was to love God, and to love your neighbor. The terrorists are our neighbors too, as evidenced when Jesus said "Love your enemy. "

 

[carlos marquez]

Wars and rumors of war are all part of the curse,But I believe that even in all this worldwide strife God is still in charge and rules in the affairs of men.
Is it ever right to take life to save life?
and if all police and military people are God's servant does that mean they are going to heaven,especially if they were to lose their life in the line of duty?

Where ever we are when God calls us we should serve him there .
what ever our occupation may be God could make good use of it.

You could even be a soldier For Christ and serve as a presence of hope in the mydst of lead and blood.

Let us not forget that Christ is not present only at your sunday gathering but he is also a very present help there in the battle fields in the hearts minds souls of Christian soldiers.

1 Timothy 2:1,2,8.

I exhort therefore,that,first of all,supplications,and giving of thanks,be made for all men;for kings and for all that are in authority;that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all goliness and honesty

1 Corinthians 7;20.

Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

 

[beefy]

Let us not forget that Christ is not present only at your sunday gathering but he is also a very present help there in the battle fields in the hearts minds souls of Christian soldiers.

1 Timothy 2:1,2,8.

I exhort therefore,that,first of all,supplications,and giving of thanks,be made for all men;for kings and for all that are in authority;that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all goliness and honesty

1 Corinthians 7;20.

Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

And I agree with this sentiment. There is so much good that our soldiers do. They create new wells for people to drink, they provide medical care that is deperately needed, they build bridges, and a great many other things.

There are indeed so many good things that these men do. But killing people that Jesus died for are not one of them.

You can be called to serve in the military, and the vast majority of what a soldier does is just that, serving and helping other people. But you don't have to kill people. It doesn't take a lot of study on Jesus' words and His example to figure that out. There are many positions in the military that have nothing to do with killing people. I would propose that the Christian soldiers you speak of join those positions.

 

[Boanerges]

I noted that you are using one of those "new," and "revised" translations. Read the original translations instead.

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14 King James Version

The word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Notice that the entire system of war, and those participating, is about constantly putting others in fear. Terrifying people is something that war is perpetually in the business of doing. If nothing else is agitating to a people, war is most certainly agitating. If anything is gained by war, surely money, and that by intimidation and conquest. If anyone can kill a man in combat, then surely the combatants get shaken thorughly from thime to time. If anything makes one tremble, it is war, and the drums and soldiers of war, that do so.

Everything about war and its participants breaks this command, "Do violence to no man."

Luk 3:14

(ASV) And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.

(BBE) And men of the army put questions to him, saying, And what have we to do? And he said to them, Do no violent acts to any man, and do not take anything without right, and let your payment be enough for you.

(CEV) Some soldiers asked him, "And what about us? What do we have to do?" John told them, "Don't force people to pay money to make you leave them alone. Be satisfied with your pay."

(Darby) And persons engaged in military service also asked him saying, And we, what should we do? And he said to them, Oppress no one, nor accuse falsely, and be satisfied with your pay.


(EMTV) Likewise the soldiers also were asking him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

(ESV) Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

(GNB) Some soldiers also asked him, "What about us? What are we to do?" He said to them, "Don't take money from anyone by force or accuse anyone falsely. Be content with your pay."

(GNT) ἐπηρώτων δὲ αὐτὸν καὶ στρατευόμενοι λέγοντες· καὶ ἡμεῖς τί ποιήσομεν; καὶ εἶπε πρὸς αὐτούς· μηδένα διασείσητε μηδὲ συκοφαντήσητε, καὶ ἀρκεῖσθε τοῖς ὀψωνίοις ὑμῶν.

(GNT-BYZ+) επηρωτωνG1905 V-IAI-3P δεG1161 CONJ αυτονG846 P-ASM καιG2532 CONJ στρατευομενοιG4754 V-PMP-NPM λεγοντεςG3004 V-PAP-NPM καιG2532 CONJ ημειςG1473 P-1NP τιG5101 I-ASN ποιησομενG4160 V-FAI-1P καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S προςG4314 PREP αυτουςG846 P-APM μηδεναG3367 A-ASM-N διασεισητεG1286 V-AAS-2P μηδεG3366 CONJ-N συκοφαντησητεG4811 V-AAS-2P καιG2532 CONJ αρκεισθεG714 V-PPM-2P τοιςG3588 T-DPN οψωνιοιςG3800 N-DPN υμωνG4771 P-2GP

(GNT-TR) επηρωτων δε αυτον και στρατευομενοι λεγοντες και ημεις τι ποιησομεν και ειπεν προς αυτους μηδενα διασεισητε μηδε συκοφαντησητε και αρκεισθε τοις οψωνιοις υμων

(GNT-TR+) επηρωτωνG1905 V-IAI-3P δεG1161 CONJ αυτονG846 P-ASM καιG2532 CONJ στρατευομενοιG4754 V-PMP-NPM λεγοντεςG3004 V-PAP-NPM καιG2532 CONJ ημειςG1473 P-1NP τιG5101 I-ASN ποιησομενG4160 V-FAI-1P καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S προςG4314 PREP αυτουςG846 P-APM μηδεναG3367 A-ASM-N διασεισητεG1286 V-AAS-2P μηδεG3366 CONJ-N συκοφαντησητεG4811 V-AAS-2P καιG2532 CONJ αρκεισθεG714 V-PPM-2P τοιςG3588 T-DPN οψωνιοιςG3800 N-DPN υμωνG4771 P-2GP

(GNT-V) επηρωτων δε αυτον και στρατευομενοι λεγοντες Aτι Aποιησωμεν και ημεις TSBτι TSBποιησομεν και ειπεν Aαυτοις TSBπρος TSBαυτους μηδενα διασεισητε μηδε συκοφαντησητε και αρκεισθε τοις οψωνιοις υμων

(GNT-WH+) επηρωτωνG1905 V-IAI-3P δεG1161 CONJ αυτονG846 P-ASM καιG2532 CONJ στρατευομενοιG4754 V-PMP-NPM λεγοντεςG3004 V-PAP-NPM τιG5101 I-ASN ποιησωμενG4160 V-AAS-1P καιG2532 CONJ ημειςG1473 P-1NP καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αυτοιςG846 P-DPM μηδεναG3367 A-ASM-N διασεισητεG1286 V-AAS-2P μηδεG3366 CONJ-N συκοφαντησητεG4811 V-AAS-2P καιG2532 CONJ αρκεισθεG714 V-PPM-2P τοιςG3588 T-DPN οψωνιοιςG3800 N-DPN υμωνG4771 P-2GP

(GW) Some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He told them, "Be satisfied with your pay, and never use threats or blackmail to get money from anyone."

(HNT) וישאלהו גם־אנשי הצבא לאמר ואנחנו מה־נעשה ויאמר אליהם אל־תזעזעו איש ואל־תעשקו ודי לכם בשכרכם׃

(KJV) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

(KJV+) AndG1161 the soldiersG4754 likewiseG2532 demandedG1905 of him,G846 saying,G3004 AndG2532 whatG5101 shall weG2248 do?G4160 AndG2532 he saidG2036 untoG4314 them,G846 Do violenceG1286 to no man,G3367 neitherG3366 accuse any falsely;G4811 andG2532 be contentG714 with yourG5216 wages.G3800

(KJVA) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

(LITV) And also ones serving as soldiers asked him, saying, And we, what shall we do? And he said to them, Do not shake violently anyone nor accuse falsely, and be satisfied with your wages.

(MKJV) And the soldiers also asked of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said to them, Do not forcibly extort anyone, nor accuse any falsely. And be content with your wages.

(Murdock) And those serving in war inquired of him, and said: And what shall we do ? He said to them: Be insolent to no one, and oppress no one, and let your pay satisfy you.

(RV) And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither exact anything wrongfully; and be content with your wages.

(Vulgate) interrogabant autem eum et milites dicentes quid faciemus et nos et ait illis neminem concutiatis neque calumniam faciatis et contenti estote stipendiis vestris

(Webster) And the soldiers likewise asked him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said to them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely, and be content with your wages.

(WNT) The soldiers also once and again inquired of him, "And we, what are we to do?" His answer was, "Neither intimidate any one nor lay false charges; and be content with your pay."

(YLT) And questioning him also were those warring, saying, `And we, what shall we do?' and he said unto them, `Do violence to no one, nor accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.'


All these translations and not one agrees with your interpretation.
Jesus said nothing about war but simply told these soldiers to quit the then quite common acts of violent extortion.

 

[Trishann]

There are indeed so many good things that these men do.[/quote]


The soldiers are able to do this because they are standing against evil. Unfortunately because evil will always be in this world, actions will have to be in place. I don't think soldiers are intentionaly killing anyone but they have to be prepared. Yes it is a sad thing that wars will always be here, but thank God these soldiers are doing something and also saving many lifes.

God Bless, Trish

 

[carlos marquez]

Soldiers only do what they are trained to do,obey orders.but not all soldiers are necesarily converted to Christ, but there is soldiers who are blood bought and and through these fellow beliebers the gospel is able to penetrate into places that most of us dare not venture into.

I dont expect any standing army to necesaly exiibit the attributes of Christ ,but then even armies have their purpose set in place by God to execute judgement and deal in the affairs of men who are of the world and live according to this world,but if you are spiritual then walk in the spirit and dont be disappointed when the world does things that are accoirding to this world.And do pray for your fellow soldiers because you do have brothers and sisters who desire to be back home with their loved ones.

Cornelious was mentioned in the bible also as being a soldier and at the same time being God fearing and ministering to the needs of believers but never the less cornilious remained in his proffession .

One of the points I was trying to make is we are supposed to continue serving wherever God calls us.

Let us who are spritual pray and let the secular authorities do their job,the bible says that laws were put in place to restrain law breakers and the law is not a terror to law abiders and if we are truely saved then we are safe because we will be doing the will of God Amen.

we can not deny that you and me benefit from the sacrifices of all the men and wemen in uniform so the honorable Christian thing for us to do is pray for all those involved in conflicting wars you dont need to have all the answers and the why's all you need to know is that the eyes of God are watching every detail and one day the king of kings will set things right and in their proper order.

 

[Giggles4God]

I do have a question for the person who started this thread...have you read Revelation? Do you believe that Jesus is coming with an army...Read Chapter 19. I believe Jesus IS coming with an army. Revelation 19:19-21 says And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him(Jesus) who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jesus is coming with a sword to kill. Why would He then say...somewhere...oh wait...the soldiers can't fight and kill. If they did not, the blood of innocent people would be on them and us (just like the blood of the aborted babies are on our hands...if we do not speak out!).

I have friends and cousins in the army of the USA. I will not let their blood and sacrifice be for naught.

 

[beefy]

When I am weak, Jesus is strong. When I stumble, Jesus carries me. When I am heavyhearted, Jesus takes my burden. When I cry, Jesus wipes the tears.

And when someone wrongs you, Jesus will take revenge. Not you.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19

As I have already stated, there are plenty of noncombat postions within the military, and if a soldier is in one of these postions, not contributing to the deaths of others in any way, then it is fine.

Let us who are spritual pray and let the secular authorities do their job,the bible says that laws were put in place to restrain law breakers and the law is not a terror to law abiders and if we are truely saved then we are safe because we will be doing the will of God Amen.

And so they are in place for a reason. They are ordained by God. God does use them to minister to us.

This Romans 13 verse says "he is a minister of God."

Let's see here. How many times has God used a bad situation to minister to Christians? I can think of many...

Such as that man who had a son who was paralyzed and couldn't hardly speak. That man who runs marathons with his son in tow. This is an example of how God uses a bad situation to minister to Christians. In this case, we can see God's love through the love of the father running the marathon with his son, even though his son cannot hardly move.

God uses many things to minster to us. The soldiers and police are an example of how God minsters to us. When we do something wrong, God will take revenge, and He may use soldiers or police to reprimand and correct His children. Why?

Because "God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galations 6:7

God can use any situation, or any person, to minster to us if we go astray from His commands. God's Will is done no matter what, and God can use all things (including police and soldiers) to carry out His revenge on those who do evil.

But, God has personally killed people like Ananias and Saphirra in the New Testament. God doesn't need soldiers and police to carry out His will, although I am sure He will continue to use them. He also has earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and all the forces of nature to exact justice on mankind.

But I know there will always be "wars and rumors of wars." This is necessary for the prophecy of Revelations to be filled.

Just because God uses soldiers as ministers of God to us(as well as homeless people, family members, criminals, etc.) does not mean the verse is telling us to become soldiers, or that soldiery is okay for Christians.

Why do I think this? Because nothing about the life and words of His disciples or the early church coincides with this view that Christians should participate in war.

Even Paul said that Christians should not war against flesh, for our weapons are not carnal:

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." 2 Corinthians 10:3-6

Paul also said in Romans 12,

" Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”d says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 1217-21

The early Christian community understood Jesus’ commands to prohibit the bearing of arms. Christians refused to join the military, even though the Roman army of the period was as much a police force as a conquering army. Those who converted to Christianity while in military service were instructed to refrain from killing, to pray for forgiveness for past acts of violence, and to seek release from their military obligations. A striking example of the pervasiveness of pacifism in the early church is the fact that Tertullian and Origen—church fathers who stood at opposite poles regarding the relation of faith to philosophical reasoning—each wrote a tract supporting Christians’ refusal to join the military.

It wasn't until St. Augustine came around with his "Just War Theory" that many Christians changed their stance. This also happened to be the time when Christians got their first taste of political power, around the time when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.

Here is are some historical quotes from the early church:

"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.

"We used to be filled with war, mutual slaughter, and every kind of wickedness. However, now all of us have, throughout the whole earth, changed our warlike weapons. We have changed our swords into plowshares, and our spears into farming implements." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.254.

"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.

"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.

"The one instrument of peace is what we employ: the Word alone. We no longer use the ancient psaltery, trumpet, tembrel, and flute. For those who are expert in war and are scorners of the fear of God were accustomed to make use of them." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.246.

"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian

"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen

"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen

"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian

"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius

"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.

 

[Giggles4God]

I guess since I am a prayer warrior that my mind is on fighting. Yes, I know very well that my fight isn't against flesh and blood. BUT I ask you...if your family was in trouble...a person broke into your house and if you waited to attack, they would be gone...as in dead...would you attack?

Sure it is hypothetical, but I guess we are reading different Bibles. Mine says that whatever law governs the land, we follow.

My grandfather molested me. No, I didn't put him in jail, though I could have. So, please don't tell me that God avenges us. I know without a doubt He does. I know from experience.

I know, too, that without the shedding of blood on this land USA...we would not have our freedoms. I thank God every day for this land. Does God weep over it? I am sure. I don't know what God really wants from me, but I do know that when Jesus comes back He is coming with an army (those of us who believe in Him!) and He'll fight.

Jesus isn't just a peaceful person.

Are you really reading all the Bible? Are you seeing what God is ALL about? He asked Saul to KILL a whole people, plus the king. Saul didn't. The prophet Samuel killed King Agag. Read it in 1 Samuel chapter 15. 1 Samuel 15:32-35 says

32 Then Samuel said, “Bring Agag king of the Amalekites here to me.” So Agag came to him cautiously.
And Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”
33 But Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.
34 Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house at Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Samuel a prophet killed a man. Read why he had to do it. God has told King Saul and his men to do it.

so...read the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[beefy]

Would I attack someone breaking into my home trying to kill me and my family?

No. I would act as a human shield for those I loved. That is how I would defend them. I would not attack.
Let me quote Gandhi when he said, "There are many causes that I would die for. There is not a single cause I would kill for."

Sure it is hypothetical, but I guess we are reading different Bibles. Mine says that whatever law governs the land, we follow

.
That is a most dangerous way of thinking. Whatever law governs the land, you follow. The people who joined the Nazis thought this way. The were just regular Christians minding their own business when Hitler came along and cited Romans 13 until he had indoctrinated the lot of them into his army. He just said, "Hey, the Bible says submit to the governing authorities, that means you should do what I say." And so they did. And all these Christians helped kill over 6 million Jews. Don't believe me? Look it up. The numbers of Christians that became Nazis are staggering.

Are you really reading all the Bible? Are you seeing what God is ALL about? He asked Saul to KILL a whole people, plus the king. Saul didn't. The prophet Samuel killed King Agag. Read it in 1 Samuel chapter 15.

Before I begin, I want to remind you of a lesser known fact among Christians.

The Old Testament means "Old Covenant." Look it up if in the dictionay if you would like some proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."

Now I will explain to you the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant (New Testament) that Jesus preached.

Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.

What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament. What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant. Under this old covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocoties to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6

From the International Standard Version:

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old
"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his peoplewhen he said,
“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. " Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version, it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away."

You see? The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete, including the "eye for an eye" doctrine.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:" Matthew 5:38-39

Be careful not to confuse the ancient Jews with Christians. The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant. Christ was not even around yet, therefore the Jews could not possibly be Christians. Christians follow Christ, and His example.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.

Don't get me wrong though. Jesus still upheld the Ten Commandments, on numerous occassions. But He said the greatest commandment was to love God, and to love your neighbor as yourself. The terrorists are our neighbors too, as evidenced when Jesus said "Love your enemy. "

 

[Trishann]

Would I attack someone breaking into my home trying to kill me and my family?

No. I would act as a human shield for those I loved.

If you act just as a human shield for those you love, which I would do the same thing, but if that was not enough, you wouldn't take action. I would in all my power to get this person out of my house, but if refuse to do so and putting my family in danger; I would take action.

If you don't protect them from this evil, who will.

God Bless, Trish

 

[Giggles4God]

I posted at 2am my time...I was tired...so my saying about heeding to the law of the land...was short and misinterpreted...because I was so tired. There are laws for reasons. If a law goes against the Bible (which I Believe being the the military and defending our country is not against the Bible), then it needs to be changed and dealt with.

But, it is interesting, beefy, that you have not commented on Revelation and what it says there. Are you just bringing out what you can fight against? Just a thought.

and beefy, like my husband says...if our house was attacked he will defend to the death if need be...and yes he would fight back. He is one of the strongest followers of Jesus I know.

 

[carlos marquez]

I understand where your coming from but I dont get where your trying to take this.

When you talk about soldiers doing the killing are you assuming they are all saved and doing it in the name of jesus?

Im saying that wars didnt originate in the heart of Jesus but all wars are of this world and represent the heart of earthly man , Read James 4:1-10.

But you must keep in mind that there is such a thing called evil and good .Some times people of the world exemplify more goodness through their acts than those who claim to be children of God.

Many Christianites Give the gospel a bad wrap when they bite and devoure each other, but when we are called to martyrdome we tuck tail and run.

Unless you are prepared to leave everything and walk into Afghanastan with a bible in your hand I will no longer listen to your reasoning.

I dont expect you to praise your armed forces but in the interest of honesty and fairness you have to give credit to those who opose wickedness ,you are commanded to do it.Romans 13:7..

Obey all laws of the land, pay your bills ,go and vote, support your local boy scouts ,march at your pro life rallies ,go to church ,pay your tithes, give to cesar what is his, drive the speed limit, love your wife ,love your kids, dont lust after your neighbors goods, be content with your wages, and above all have love ,but especially for those of the household of faith.

And if by any chance your government mails you a stimulus check commanding you to worship molech then and only then must you disobey and be prepaired for possible martydome.

Any standing army has those who specialize in killing and also those who set up camp and feed and look after the needs of the soldiers,but when your representing an army it dont matter if your peeling potatoes or shootin at the enemy when you represent you become one with those you ride with.
So this is sinful according to your reasoning right?
You cant seperate one from the other ,if your going to call the head bad you must also include the whole body.

Not every one was called to do what you are doing.
God is calling soldiers who are as we speak involved in some serious gun battles ,but have grace, and realize that these men and women are in the heat of it all while me and you are comfortably chatting in our warm and cozy little secluded and safe houses.

Let God be the judge and in His own time if He sees fit maybe He will relocate some of these soldiers to positions that are more in line with your theology.

If God is capable saving thieves,prostitutes and murderers,then surely my jesus is also very able to save and restore and forgive those who have experienced war ,and it dont matter if you dont take any sides,because my God saves whome He wills,because truth be told before God found us we were just as bad or even worse than any murderer and we were all hell bound but by the grace of God you are here and in your right mind.
I exort you that by all means,hate what sin does, and hate all wars because of all the blood that is shed, but dont hate people but pray for the souls of people and that one day all soldiers will put their weapons down and all kings and queens will reliquish their crowns,but until then there will be sorrow.

 

[beefy]

But, it is interesting, beefy, that you have not commented on Revelation and what it says there. Are you just bringing our what you can fight against? Just a thought. [/QOUTE]
Revelation concerns future prophecy, in which Jesus, the only righteous judge, will wage war. He and His perfect angels will wage war against Satan and his demons and followers. The enemies he fights against are quite different than the potential converts to Christianity that militaries kill today. The war in Revelation is a holy war, true good vs. true evil. There is no comparison to the wars fought today, and in no way justifies them.
It is interesting to me that you have not addressed the platform of the early church, before Christians gained political power.

Unless you are prepared to leave everything and walk into Afghanastan with a bible in your hand I will no longer listen to your reasoning.

I am prepared to do just that. I intend to participate in CPT(Christian Peacemaker Teams) when I get a chance. The question they pose to readers on their site is as follows:What would happen if Christians devoted the same discipline and self-sacrifice to nonviolent peacemaking that armies devote to war?As we speak, they are out in Iraq showing love and the gospel to everyone they meet. They are risking their lives daily by doing so. Some of them have been killed, others have been abducted by terrorirsts. They are true martyrs, and truly know how to "love your enemy."

I dont expect you to praise your armed forces but in the interest of honesty and fairness you have to give credit to those who opose wickedness ,you are commanded to do it. Romans 13:7

I don't hate anyone in the military. I do respect the good things that the military does, and these things are numerous. Building bridges, creating wells with drinkable water, helping people, community service, etc.But I am not commanded to respect the act of killing. It is wrong to kill people. I can gather no respect for killing people, it is detestable.

give to cesar what is his, drive the speed limit, love your wife ,love your kids, dont lust after your neighbors goods, be content with your wages,

You forgot a couple commands. In addition to give to caesar what it his, you should also add "pay to God what is God's." We are supposed to pay obedience to God and His commands, including the command to "love your enemy."I pay my taxes. Why?

Jesus said, "Pay to Caesar what is Ceasar's and pay to God what is God's.
" Matthew 22:21The image on the currency is Caesar, and so the money is his. He created the currency. The image on our dollar bill is of American Presidents, likewise, it is their money. They printed it. Unlike money, the people of the world were created in God's image, therefore they are God's. And if God tells them to "love their enemies" and "do good to those who hate you," then by golly they had better do it, for they are God's people, not Caesar's.
Killing their enemies instead is not doing the enemies any good nor is it showing them love. Therefore killing enemies is disobedience to Christ.
In addition to be content with your wages, you should add "Do violence to no man."What does violence look like?"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14 King James VersionThe word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Notice that the entire system of war, and those participating, is about constantly putting others in fear. Terrifying people is something that war is perpetually in the business of doing. If nothing else is agitating to a people, war is most certainly agitating. If anything is gained by war, surely money, and that by intimidation and conquest. If anyone can kill a man in combat, then surely the combatants get shaken thorughly from thime to time. If anything makes one tremble, it is war, and the drums and soldiers of war, that do so.

Everything about war and its participants breaks this command, "Do violence to no man."
I don't hate people. I love even my enemies. I wish everyone did the same. "Love your enemy" is a command, not optional. It is necessary for all who follow Jesus to follow this command. And killing your enemy is not loving your enemy. It is quite the opposite.And there is good reason to obey Jesus' commands. For if we do not, we amy be counted among those that do not love Jesus, those that only pay Him lip-service.
For Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15And Jesus commanded "love your enemy." He did not provide any exceptions to this command.

 

[Giggles4God]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.