The Russian was right

[beefy]

Sure, we can do that. If you choose not to respond to any of the arguments I presented, that is fine.

So I will leave you with this. You have the choice to either respond to it or not. This is not me trying to have the last word. This is me trying to shine some light on the commands of Jesus that you may or may not have forgotten.

If I am commanded to kill someone, like Hitler commanded the German Christians to do (and they complied after he cited Romans 13), then there is clearly a contradiction with God's command, "Love your enemy." To do so would be a clear disobedience of Christ's command. And since I love Jesus, I will obey His command, for He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:5

Unless you wish to argue that you can show love to an enemy by blowing their head off, then you have no arguement. Jesus did not make an exception to the command, "Love your enemy."

And neither did Paul. Let's look at what he said, immediately after Romans 13:1-7

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:8-10

You see? Love is the fulfilling of the law. Jesus established that we are to love our neighbor, and our enemies are our neighbors too, as evidenced when he said, "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you."

If "love worketh no ill to his neighbor," then love certainly cannot kill his neighbor (aka enemy). Hitler's actions worked ill to his neighbors. Killing other people is working ill to them. Therefore it is against God's law, for "love is the fulfilling of the law." You cannot kill somone out of love. Therefore it does not fulfill the law.

Another thing. Did you know that God is "kind unto the evil and the unthankful?" We are commanded to be just like Him.

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." Luke 6:35

"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:36

We are supposed to forgive the trespasses of others, every time, up to 77 times and beyond.

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 14:15

If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. And we all have sinned. The wages of sin is death. When God forgives us, he takes away our punishment of eternal death. So too are we to forgive others, and take away their punishment that they so justly deserve, so that they will see the mercy of God. For we are to be as merciful as God is merciful.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22

If we bomb and shoot and stab after only one trespass against us, instead of forgiving, how then shall we be able to forgive seventy-seven times? Out transgressor will be dead after the first trespass, and we will not have shown forgiveness at all!

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40

I think we can all agree that terrorists, rapists, and murderers are among the "least of these" that Jesus speaks of. After all, they are in jail, and need to be visited. When we show love to these people, we are showing love to Christ. If we condemn these people, we are condemning Christ. If we kill these people, we are killing Christ!

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." matthew 25:45

If we do not show love to these people, we do not show love to Christ. They are the "least of these," and we must show love to them, out of love for Christ.

If you or any other Christian does not heed these clear commands that Jesus gave, you will have disobeyed Him. Only those that love Him will obey these commands.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:5

You have been warned. You hopefully now understand the implications of these commands.

 

[Boanerges]

God is a God of war as well as a God of peace. One of the 9 compound Names for God that were used by the Hebrews was Jehovah Sabaoth- literally the Lord of Hosts


1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

From the Strong's Ehaustive Concordance of the Bible:
Hosts-
H6635
צבאה צבא
tsâbâ' tsebâ'âh
tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'
From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).



Jesus Christ Himself will come with a great army conquering His foes. There is not a King nor a tyrant that God does not raise up for a purpose. Historically God has caused many to go to war as a form of judgment and caused His people to war on those who would draw them away from Himself.

God is sovereign and yet there was war even in the heavens themselves:
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


2Sa 22:33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.
2Sa 22:34 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet: and setteth me upon my high places.
2Sa 22:35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Psa 144:1 A Psalm of David. Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:


Psa 18:32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
Psa 18:33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
Psa 18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



Obviously this is one of those things that will never be totally agreed on by all but I leave you with one question:
Can you show me one New Testament verse where God commands a soldier to quit his profession? A soldier makes war - that is what his profession does.

 

[beefy]

Yes, I do read revelation. And as I have said before, the Holy War between angels and demons is no comparison to the killing of potential converts to Christianity that goes on today.

Yes, I do know that God commanded people to war in the Old Covenant (Old Testament). And I have already explained what Jesus explained in the New Covenant/Testament.

Yes, I realize that killing is what soldiers do.

If a Roman soldier told his superiors that he was quitting just because some man with long hair told him that he could not do violence to any man, he would he almost certainly would be killed.

All the more reason that John did not tell the soldiers to quit. There was no need for them to be slaughtered needlessly by their superiors. He told them what to do in their position, and to be content with the wages they had.

And when Jesus left, the the early church remembered these commands by John and Baptist and Jesus about loving enemies, and so they worked to get soldiers out of the military. But even they did not tell the soldiers to quit right away. That would have been suicide..

"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"The one instrument of peace is what we employ: the Word alone. We no longer use the ancient psaltery, trumpet, tembrel, and flute. For those who are expert in war and are scorners of the fear of God were accustomed to make use of them." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.246.

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian

"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.

And so I repeat.

Unless you wish to argue that you can show love to an enemy by blowing their head off, then you have no arguement. Jesus did not make an exception to the command, "Love your enemy."

Answer me this Boanerges. Is there any way you can show love to an enemy by killing them? Did not Jesus say "love your enemy"? How then could you kill them? Is that an act of love for the enemy?

 

[carlos marquez]

Praise the Lord for giving us the courage to boldly step out in faith with a bible in hand always at the ready to deliver the plea of God to a dieing and rebelious world.

I already said to you once that armies are not saved as a whole but there are individuals that are,Only those who have the spirit are capable of walking after the spirit,so my advice to you is ,live out your life with an abudance of grace,always at the ready to minister it out to whome ever.

I agree that there is alot of injustice and cruelty comitted in the the name of just wars,but even in all this I still believe nothing happens by chance everything that is done under the heavens is done under God's permissive will and in the end many of the things we deem unjust will serv God's purpose.

King Nebechadnezzar was named in the bible to show us that God is present and mindful concerning the affairs of this world and those who run it.

Daniel 4:16,17.

Let his heart be changed from mans ,and let a beast's be given unto him;and let seven times pass over him.
This matter is by the decree of the watchers,and the demand of the holy ones:to the intent that the living may know that the most high ruleth in the kingdome of men,and giveth it to whomsoever he will,and setteth up over it the basest of men.

We dont have all the solutions but there is one who does and he is the reason why there is still some level of normalcy in your world,God has set all authorities in place and God chose to set faulty humans in charge and in the end God will wrap all this show up in rightiousness because he intends to cut this work short.


Psalm 76:10.

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee:the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

I personaly as a man of God if it be possible,as much as it lieth in me ,I will live peaceably with all men.
And I will make it a habbit to be always prepaired to bless and not curse.I will not be overcome with evil but I will overcome evil with good.

You do make some pretty good points brother But I believe you need to take it to the root of the problem,If we claim to be lovers of Christ and and disobey every command ,that could be a strong indicator that we are deceaved and never had Christ in the first place.

 

[beefy]

Thank you. And you make a good point too.

"God works all things for the good of those that love Him."

No matter what we do, God will work it to the good of those that love Him. Everything that happens, God uses for our good, and the outcome of all events is His Holy and perfect Will.

 

[Boanerges]

God said - thou shall not kill then He prescribed the death penalty for several crimes.
The word Kill used there translates "murder" and not execute.
I will simply end my conversation here by saying that you are taking Jesus Words from one context and applying them broadly which is no favor to their original intent.
As we will not agree on this let us agree to disagree.
much love and many blessings In Jesus Name,
brother Larry.

 

[Trishann]

I am prepared to do just that. I intend to participate in CPT(Christian Peacemaker Teams) when I get a chance.

I doubt that they will let you walk into a war zone in Afghanastan. But if the soldiers let you, you will be protected by the soldiers.

God Bless, Trish

 

[Janette]

God doesn't lie, and doesn't change.

Way too many people want Justice to be as simple as a rule book.

If it were, the Law could have saved us.

It can't, therefore Justice is just not that simple, nor was it meant to be.

---

1) Given: The Lord God Himself has commanded members of mankind to KILL (the exact word used was "destroy") other humans, one time even including some of the children and animals of the enemy at the time.

Further, the Lord Himself wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah - killing - every man, woman, and child in those cities (excepting Lot and his family who were told to get out).

Lastly, everyone not specifically under Grace *by accepting Christ as their Savior through Faith* is still under the Law, and the Law carries all sorts of death penalties which are to be enforced by mankind according to how they were written and passed on in Scripture.

2) If the killing of another human is "evil" and "wrong" in ALL contexts, then the Lord God Himself commanded mankind to DO EVIL at least once in recorded history, and has blood on His own apparently not-quite-so-holy-as-we-thought hands as well.

3) Therefore, either God is absolutely capable and willing to promote, command us to do, and do Himself that which is evil (and has in fact done so) ... OR the idea that killing another human is "evil" in all situations and contexts is too simplistic and incorrect.

---

So what kind of God do we serve then?

Is He evil, capricious, changeable, unreliable, schizophrenic?

Or are there absolutely contexts in which killing becomes necessary even if it is (rather obviously) not best?

----

You can certainly argue that our wars today are not necessarily just wars mandated by God, and that therefore the soldiers fighting them are acting wrongly by choosing to take part. A particular comparison of our wars to the conditions allowing war in the Bible is a bit beyond the scope of this reply. Personally I think the precedent was set when Abraham went to war with his enemies, on their soil, for the sake of one man named Lot....

However, you *cannot* simply say "war is evil because people kill other people" without impugning God Himself.

 

[beefy]

God said - thou shall not kill then He prescribed the death penalty for several crimes.
The word Kill used there translates "murder" and not execute.
I will simply end my conversation here by saying that you are taking Jesus Words from one context and applying them broadly which is no favor to their original intent.

I will not bother arguments based on the Old Testament. I am not using "thou shalt not kill" to justify my position, so therefore I have nothing to say to this.

You clearly do not follow th Old Covenant or the Laws God prescribed for the Israelites. If you did, not only would you buy slaves from neighboring nations, but you would kill your child for disobedience or if he.she strayed from the faith.

None of us here follow the Old Testament/Old Covenant. We are to follow the New Testament/New Covenant.

I doubt that they will let you walk into a war zone in Afghanastan. But if the soldiers let you, you will be protected by the soldiers.

Quite clearly you must not have read how members of Christian Peacemaker Teams have been killed and abducted by terrorists in Iraq. They were under no protection from US soldiers while doing their work. Read their testimonies for proof.

2) If the killing of another human is "evil" and "wrong" in ALL contexts, then the Lord God Himself commanded mankind to DO EVIL at least once in recorded history, and has blood on His own apparently not-quite-so-holy-as-we-thought hands as well.

3) Therefore, either God is absolutely capable and willing to promote, command us to do, and do Himself that which is evil (and has in fact done so) ... OR the idea that killing another human is "evil" in all situations and contexts is too simplistic and incorrect.

You don't understand. God commanded very different commands to His people in the Old Testament/Old Covenant than He commanded in the New Testament/New Covenant.

If he wants to change His Covenant commands, and make one of His previous covenants obsolete, than it is fine with me.

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 New International Version

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13 King James Version

You can certainly argue that our wars today are not necessarily just wars mandated by God, and that therefore the soldiers fighting them are acting wrongly by choosing to take part.

And that is exactly what I am saying.

No mortal man can impune God by choosing to love his enemies as Jesus commands. God's commands to the ancient Israelites are what they are, and Jesus' commands to the Christians are what they are.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that killing enemies isn't loving them. It doesn't take a genius to determine that not loving them is disobedience to Christ. And it doesn't take much to determine that disobedience to Christ is evil.

 

[manager]

Does loving your enemies require killing them?

That is an interesting question. It really depends on the situation. If we are living Holy Spirit directed lives, I think there would be a lot less killing in the world.

 

[Trishann]

beefy if that is what God is calling you to do, that is what you should do. Hope you can make a different in war and hope all goes well wtih you. Unfortunately there will always be war on this earth but I do hope you the best.

I never heard of Christian Peacemaker team but if they can help a few people that is wonderful. But I will always support the troops that sacrifice for us to live in a free land.

May God Bless you, Trish

 

[beefy]

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."Matthew 7:!2

Unless you would desire men to bomb your home and blow your brians out with a shotgun, you should not do it unto them. You should love as you would have others love you. You should show should mercy as you would have others show mercy to you. You should forgive others as you would have them forgive you.

God bless you too.

 

[Trishann]

Sorry that we disagree with each other, but that is ok, still hope the best for you.

God Bless, Trish

 

[beefy]

I just wish you would adress the scriptures I am presenting to you.

That is all.

 

[Free76Patriot]

I must confess I am enthralled by this discussion. And in no way enough of an expert to take one side. But it reminded me of how early Christians were able to "conquer" their oppressors - the Roman Empire. They didn't do it by raising their own soldiers and killing any Roman they came across. They did it through God. The exact details I'm not so sure :embarasse

 

[beefy]

I'm afraid the early church did not conquer their enemies. They were, for the most part, completely wiped out by them. The remaining survivors fled and hid in the foothills.

Ironically, it was during this mass massacre of Christians that the gospel spread like wildfire among the people. This type of fearless Christianity evangelized to more people than at any other time in history. For the first 300 years, Christianity spread across the continent, is spite of its great persecution.

And who started the early church? Jesus' very own disciples. And don't you think that if anyone knew how to follow Jesus' commands, they did? Then why are we not following their example. They never killed anyone. Almost all of them were killed. They were fearless Christians. The early church members and their families were burned at the stake, and they never lifted a finger in self-defense. And neither did the diciples of Christ.

Many of today's Christians are afraid, especially of losing their life. They value their temporary life so much that they will kill just to keep it. Their life was never their own in the first place. Why are they killing to keep it?

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

And Jesus' diciples saw no greater honor than laying down their lives and their physical bodies for Christ's sake. Death was not feared by them. It was seen as gain to be killed by their enemies.

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Phillipians 1:21

If we will not follow the example of the early church and the example of Jesus' very own twelve diciples, than what kind of Christians are we?

Allow me to reiterate what the early church believed:

The early Christian community understood Jesus’ commands to prohibit the bearing of arms. Christians refused to join the military, even though the Roman army of the period was as much a police force as a conquering army. Those who converted to Christianity while in military service were instructed to refrain from killing, to pray for forgiveness for past acts of violence, and to seek release from their military obligations. A striking example of the pervasiveness of pacifism in the early church is the fact that Tertullian and Origen—church fathers who stood at opposite poles regarding the relation of faith to philosophical reasoning—each wrote a tract supporting Christians’ refusal to join the military.

It wasn't until St. Augustine came around with his "Just War Theory" that many Christians changed their stance. This also happened to be the time when Christians got their first taste of political power, around the time when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.

Here is are some historical quotes from the early church:

"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.

"We used to be filled with war, mutual slaughter, and every kind of wickedness. However, now all of us have, throughout the whole earth, changed our warlike weapons. We have changed our swords into plowshares, and our spears into farming implements." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.254.

"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.

"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.

"The one instrument of peace is what we employ: the Word alone. We no longer use the ancient psaltery, trumpet, tembrel, and flute. For those who are expert in war and are scorners of the fear of God were accustomed to make use of them." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.246.

"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian

"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen

"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen

"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian

"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius

"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.

 

[Free76Patriot]

Wow, thanks for educating me about the history of the early church! I knew none of that, really fascinating! Actually, I feel pretty stupid right now, because everyone knows their Biblical quotes and history so well.
When I wrote "conquer", I put it in quotes because I did not mean Christians literally conquered the Roman empire. I meant convert people like Constantine and the rest of the citizens of the Empire. But I'm gonna shut up now, because I probably said something wrong again. I do love reading these threads though, I'm really getting a good education .

 

[Pedronewt]

In my opinion there is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the affairs of men. Jesus came specifically to bring revelation about the Kingdom of God and spoke very little about the affairs of men. He fulfilled the old covenant which was between God and Abraham (that through him all nations would be blessed), but did not do away with the Mosaic Law.
I would, and do, whole heartedly agree with you that the Kingdom of God should not and can never be advanced through violence or threat of force. This would only serve to create converts out of fear with no real heart change or relationship with the Father.

However it was God the Father who gave us the Mosaic Law. Along with the law came the consequences of violating that law. If a man killed another, he was to be stoned to death. Why because man has value, God given value that another man does not have the right to destroy. I have the right and obligation to be a steward of that value and to defend it or spend it for the sole purpose of glorifying God. This has not change with the new covenant.

As a father, I also have a family which I must provide for and protect. If I stand idly by and do not provide protection from harm, but rather watch as monsters of iniquity do unspeakable atrocities to my loves ones under the guise of loving my enemy, then I am worse than the perpetrators.

1 Timothy 5:8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

I am but one man and can only do so much. So then I think it is not unreasonable for people to come together to provide safety for a common group of people. We see this locally with a crime watch, and with peace officers and nationally with a military. If you will notice, the United States does not have a Department of War, but rather a Department of Defense. There is a distinct deference between the two. The reason why we have this department of government is stated in the preamble of the US Constitution.

Edmonde Burke said, "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." or more famously "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." When good men do nothing, evil triumphs. Evil, sin and sinful men must be opposed. God commands those who are good, not just to avoid evil but actively oppose it.

Christians are to not only to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but (also) reprove them" (Eph. 5:11). Those who do nothing about sin and evil, help the sin and evil to prevail. One who is silent when there are those around him in sin becomes a partaker with them (Eph. 5:7). When good men do nothing, they are no longer good.

When we deal with our enemies would should always treat them with Christ's love. When our enemies place themselves in a state of war against us, they have left reason behind. We should respond with only as much force as necessary to end that state of war, so that from there we can once again proceed to respond from reason and love. These concepts can be found in John Locke's 2nd Treatise on Government. Our Founding Fathers sited this man most, next to the Bible, in the founding of this great nation.

All this to say, I believe there is nothing more noble than for one individual to sacrifice their safety and security for the protection and welfare of their countrymen.
Does anyone else think that it is despicable for individuals to stand by and say we need to "love our enemies" while giving the enemy license to kill and destroy all that is truly good and lovely?

 

[trucker]

When I read this I was appalled that anyone could be so ignorant of the scriptures. I served twenty years in the military (1974-1994 active duty USAF) and the military is a God given entity ordained by God. Its men and women have served this nation well! I know hundreds of men and women who are spirit filled born again Christians who have and are serving in the Military.

God word does say Thou shall not kill. But further research it really states, thou shall not shed innocent blood. Fighting in the military for your nation and family is a demand God places on the nations he has given its leaders stewardship over. I tell you right now. If anyone tried to physically harm my wife or family, I would shoot them dead! No evil man or women is going to destroy what God has given me stewardship over.

If what you believe is true, then we need to rip the entire bible apart which would mean Caleb, Joshua, David, Samson, Abraham were all out of the will of God. Hebrews chapter 11 blows your theory out of the water. Look at verses 30-33 of Chapter 11. By faith these men subdued nations. If you will do a study, they all were military men ordained by God. Romans chapter 13: verses 3-4 state that those in authority do not wear the sword for nothing. They are Gods ministers to execute wrath on those who do evil. 1 Chronicles 12: 23-40 list Davids Army at Hebron and he was a man after Gods own heart.

Sir, if you are going to make statements about military men, you better know your history, your bible and the heart of God! Men of valor have turned back the tide of evil in this world. WWI, WWII, the American Revolution, and the list goes on and on. Iraq's dictator killed thousands of innocent people and the USA was used to stop his senseless killings.

If what you say is true, then Jesus violated his own word. He made a whip and drove men out of the temple. Do you not think they were hurt when the whip was applied to them???

If this sounds angry, it is! Please, read the bible, then state your case in light of Gods word, not some nonsense!

 

[Bayo Bankole]

I strongly believe that in certain conditions and in order to preserve peace and general well being in the society God would permit that evil men should be killed without the blood being required on the person that killed them.

We also need to note that God allowed Authorities and Governement to be set up to ensure that evil is punished in our society. 1 Tim. 1:8-11; 2:1-4. Our Governments have the responsibility, under God, to ensure that peace reingns in our world and that just men are not unnecessarily intimated and harmed which makes it compelling for Governments to establish Agencies and Military to ensure this.

Let us take a scenerio of an armed man that kidnaped an unarmed law abiding citizen with the intention to kill, if me as a Godly police officer have the oportunity of killing him to set free the kidnaped victim and I do it, could we say I have gone against God's will and purpose? I think not!

My submission is that as man under authority of a Goverment to maintain order and peace, I could take a life in the pursuit of general peace and well being of the larger community.

Trucker reminded me of the Rom. 13:3-4. The Authorities we have do not bear the swords in vain but to use it against evil men and schemes around us and a believer that is led to bear this sword on behalf of the Authority will not be doing bad if and when he uses it "under Authority".

However, I am also of the opinion that if an armed man comes to harm me and I have no chance of running away from him, I will rather commit myself to God to deliver me than kill the attacker. In that case I will behave like lamb that we are called to be.