THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH

[Johann]

THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH
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Spirit and Soul Leaves Index
Introduction 1.1
#1.1 THE SOUL GIVES LIFE to THE BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
#1.2 THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE to THE BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
Introduction 1.1
There is one fundamental mistake that many people seem to make when teaching about death, and that is that they treat the soul or spirit and body as a single entity after death. This is wrong. The soul or spirit leaves the body at death and can no longer be coupled together with it as a single entity after that, until resurrection. To get the right understanding the spirit or soul have to be treated separately when people are dead. This bible study gives plenty of scripture evidence that the spirit or soul leaves the body at death.

#1.1 THE SOUL GIVES LIFE to THE BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
GENESIS 35:16-20
16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labor.
17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labor, that the midwife said to her, Do not fear; you shall have this son also.
18 And it came to pass, as her soul1 was departing, that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
20 And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave to this day.

1 KINGS 17:17-23
17 And it came to pass after these things, the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so severe, that there was no breath left in him.
18 And she said to Elijah, What have I to do with you, O you man of God? Have you come to me to call my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?
19 And he said to her, Give me your son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20 And he cried to Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh my God, have you also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by killing her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh my God, I pray you, let this child's soul1 come into him again.
22 And Yahweh heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul1 of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother: and Elijah said, See, your son lives.

ISAIAH 53:12
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul1 to death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

MATTHEW 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul2, but rather fear him who is able to ruin both body and soul in Gehenna.

REVELATION 6:9-11 (John)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls2 of those who were killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren who should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Note: In the Old Testament the Hebrew word translated soul1 is נֶפֶשׁ , 'nephesh' Strong's 5315. In Genesis 35:16-20 we see an account of Rachel giving birth to Benjamin. The labor was difficult and the scripture says, "Her soul was departing" (v18) "And Rachel died" (v19). It seems from this that when a person dies the soul departs; it goes somewhere but we are not told where it goes here. In the account of Elijah raising the widow's son from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-20) he prayed for the child's soul to come back into him. God answered his prayer and the child's soul entered into him and he came back alive. This refutes the false teaching that says the soul ceases to exist at death. Jesus "poured out his soul to death" (Isaiah 53:12) also confirms that the soul leaves when a person dies. In the New Testament the Greek word for soul2 is ψυχή 'psuche' Strong's 5590. It is basically the equivalent of the Hebrew 'nephesh' in the Septuagint but it is used more in a spiritual sense in the New Testament; the non-physical part of a human being. In Matthew 10:28 we are told that men can kill the body but not the soul. This is proof from the words of Jesus himself that you cannot treat the body and soul as being in the same condition when a person dies. The soul does not die when a person dies. Jesus also said, "Everyone who lives and believes in me shall certainly not die for ever." (John 11:26). Now those who heard him all died physically so he could only be referring to the soul or spirit. The soul leaves and goes somewhere. In Revelation 6:9-11 we are told that the souls of the righteous dead are under the altar, which is obviously in heaven (Revelation 8:1-3; 9:13; 14:17-18; 16:7). These were killed for their testimony and they were crying out (Revelation 6:10). They were not asleep, or non-existent, nor did they "know nothing" as some teach. They were receiving white robes (v11) and waiting for other Christians to be killed so that they could be resurrected when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

#1.2 THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE to the BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
JOB 34:14-15 (Elihu)
14 If he sets his heart upon man, if he gathers to himself his spirit1 and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again into dust.

PSALMS 104:29
29 You hide your face, they are troubled: you take away their spirit1, they die, and return to the dust.

ECCLESIASTES 3:21 (Solomon)
21 Who knows the spirit1 of man that goes upward, and the spirit1 of the beast that goes downward to the earth?

ECCLESIASTES 8:8 (Solomon)
8 There is no man who has power over the spirit1 to retain the spirit1; neither does he have power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those who are given to it.

ECCLESIASTES 12:7 (Solomon)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit1 shall return to God who gave it.

LUKE 8:54-55
54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, Child, arise!
55 And her spirit2 returned, and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat."

LUKE 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit2: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit.

JAMES 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit2 is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

REVELATION 11:9-12 (John)
9 And they of the people and tribes and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
10 And those who dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another; because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit2 of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those who saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies saw them.

Note: The word translated spirit1 in the above scriptures is the Hebrew word רוּחַ 'ruach' Strong's 7307. It occurs 378 times in the Old Testament and in the KJV it is translated Spirit or spirit (232x), wind (92x), breath (37x), side (6x), blast (4x), and 11 various other translations.
The word translated spirit2 in the above scriptures is the Greek word πνεῦμα 'pneuma' Strong's 4151. It occurs 385 times in the New Testament and is translated Spirit or spirit (273x), Ghost or ghost (91x), and various others (21x) in the KJV. Ecclesiastes 3:21 can be interpreted spiritually, so 'man' refers to a righteous man and 'beast' refers to a sinful man. This would indicate that a righteous spirit returns to God as Ecclesiastes 12:7 says, even as Jesus expected his to go to his Father (Luke 23:46). An unrighteous spirit goes to 'Sheol' in the Old Testament (Isaiah 14:9-10; Ezekiel 32:21) or 'Hades' in the New Testament (Luke 16:23). As the body without the spirit is dead (James 2:26) it seems obvious that the spirit must enter into a person again in order for it to come to life. This is exactly what happens as the spirit of Jairus' daughter returned for her to be resurrected (Luke 8:55), and also the two prophets (Revelation 11:11 KJV).

THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH

This bible study gives plenty of scripture evidence that the spirit or soul leaves the body at death.

www.logosapostolic.org

We may agree to disagree.
Shalom
Johann

 

[joestue]

I'm not sure if I disagree with much of anything here, but in my opinion the spirit and the soul, for a significant amount of contexts are the same thing basically, not separate entities.

In Ezekiel the spirit is often used to describe the characteristics of a person. Which do change and are made new at being born again. The mans heart is now turned to God. But his old obstinate spirit is not destroyed when God gives him a new one. Rather it is a characteristic of the man that is made new but had no spiritual or physical substance to be destroyed. Anger is an emotion in the mind, not a demon or a spirit. But in antiquity, emotions are often called spirits. Perhaps because in general people in antiquity were unstable and were highly traumatized and didn't learn how to control their emotions. (The evidence for this is.. well look around at the world and compare the emotional stability of a mature christian compared to everyone else.)

Elsewhere in scripture for example the spirit departed, are you really going to insist that their spirit departed but their soul didn't? As in like maybe they stopped breathing but hadn't died yet?


Can a person's soul leave the body but the body stay alive? My opinion is that it can, and one person in know of sais she got really good at it by age 5 and a male voice of authority told her sternly get back in your body and never do that again. When my mom was young she got scared by a horror film and left her body. She watched her boyfriend hold her body for some time before she calmed down and went back in. Assuming this is actually what happened, and she did leave her body. Was it the spirit or soul or both that did?

Another example, Elijah rebukes is servant saying did you not know I was with you in spirit when you joined his chariot?! This means his servant knew Elijah was watching him we call this astral projection today.

So was it his spirit or soul that was watching his servant (assuming the terms are used interchangeably) (and Elijah is the only one in the Bible who is recorded as having this ability).

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not sure if I disagree with much of anything here, but in my opinion the spirit and the soul, for a significant amount of contexts are the same thing basically, not separate entities.

The Bible differentiates between the two.

1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1Thes 5:23; Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb 4:12; For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[joestue]

I think you didn't read my entire post.

Here is a question to illustrate the problem. When God gives you a new spirit, where does the old one go?

 

[Johann]

When God gives you a new spirit, where does the old one go?

I have noticed some of the questions here might fall in the peiradzo category,


Jer_9:7 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will melt them, and try them; for how shall I do for the daughter of my people?
Jer_17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Lam_3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Dan_11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Zec_13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
בָּחַן (ba.chan) 'to test' (H0974)

This word occurs about 29 x
Meaning
1) to examine, try, prove
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to examine, scrutinise
1a2) to test, prove, try (of gold, persons, the heart, man of God)
1b) (Niphal) to be tried, proved
1c) (Pual) to make a trial

Like...who is YHVH?
What happens when a person is born from above...?
What is faith?
What is Hell?

Same questions you'll find on Quora and Got Questions

The Bible speaks often of the heart. The word heart can mean different things depending upon the context. Most often, the heart refers to the soul of a human being that controls the will and emotions. The heart is the “inner man” (2 Corinthians 4:16). The prophet Ezekiel makes several references to a “new heart” (e.g., Ezekiel 18:31; 36:26). An oft-quoted verse is Ezekiel 11:19 where God says, “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.” So what does this mean?

In Ezekiel 11, God is addressing His people, the Israelites, promising to one day restore them to the land and to a right relationship with Himself. God promises to gather the Hebrews from the nations where they had been scattered (Ezekiel 11:17) and give them a new, undivided heart (verse 19). The result of their receiving a new heart will be obedience to God’s commands: “Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God” (verse 20). This prophecy will be fulfilled in the millennium, when Jesus the Messiah rules from Zion and Israel has been restored to faith (Romans 11:26).

Someone whom God has given a new heart behaves differently. Saul is an example of this in 1 Samuel 10:1 and 9. God had chosen Saul to be the first king of Israel. Saul was a nobody, but God chose him anyway and sent the prophet Samuel to anoint him king. “Then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, ‘Has not the Lord anointed you ruler over his inheritance?’” Samuel made several predictions to prove to Saul that God had sent him, and verse 9 says, “As Saul turned and started to leave, God gave him a new heart, and all Samuel’s signs were fulfilled that day.” The new heart God gave Saul transformed him from an average nobody to the king of Israel. Not only was his status changed, but his entire outlook was transformed by the power of God.

The human heart was created to mirror God’s own heart (Genesis 1:27; James 3:9). We were designed to love Him, love righteousness, and walk in harmony with God and others (Micah 6:8). But part of God’s design of the human heart is free will. That free will carries with it the opportunity to abuse it, as did Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:11). God desires that we choose to love and serve Him. When we stubbornly refuse to follow God, our hearts, which were designed to communicate with God, are hardened. God compares rebellious hearts to stone (Zechariah 7:12). A heart of stone finds it impossible to repent, to love God, or to please Him (Romans 8:8). The hearts of sinful humanity are so hardened that we cannot even seek God on our own (Romans 3:11), and that’s why Jesus said no one can come to Him unless the Father first draws him (John 6:44). We desperately need new hearts, for we are unable on our own to soften our hard hearts. A change of heart toward God requires a supernatural transformation. Jesus called it being “born again” (John 3:3).

When we are born again, God performs a heart transplant, as it were. He gives us a new heart. The power of the Holy Spirit changes our hearts from sin-focused to God-focused. We do not become perfect (1 John 1:8); we still have our sinful flesh and the freedom to choose whether or not to obey it. However, when Jesus died for us on the cross, He broke the power of sin that controls us (Romans 6:10). Receiving Him as our Savior gives us access to God and His power—a power to transform our hearts from sin-hardened to Christ-softened. When we were separated from God with hardened hearts, we found it impossible to please Him. We tended toward selfishness, rebellion, and sin. With new hearts we are declared righteous before God (2 Corinthians 5:21). The Holy Spirit gives us a desire to please God that was foreign to us in our hardened state. Second Corinthians 3:18 says that we “are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” God’s desire for every human being is that we become like His Son, Jesus (Romans 8:29). We can become like Jesus only when we allow God to rid us of our old, hardened hearts and give us new hearts.

2 Corinthians 3:18 ESV - And we all, with… | Biblia

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another....

biblia.com

What does the Bible mean when it says that we will receive a new heart? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible mean when it says that we will receive a new heart? What does having a new heart mean in regards to the Christian life?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes, no?
[ Might get a wrap over my knuckles ]

Shalom
Johann

 

[joestue]

The word heart can mean different things depending upon the context.

I agree there.

Same as with soul and spirit elsewhere in the Bible in my opinion, as I have explained.

 

[Johann]

I agree there.

Same as with soul and spirit elsewhere in the Bible in my opinion, as I have explained.

Actually there are two yeshiva's of thought.

In Christian theology, the tripartite view (trichotomy) holds that humankind is a composite of three distinct components: body, spirit, and soul.

It is in contrast to the bipartite view (dichotomy), where soul and spirit are taken as different terms for the same entity (the spiritual soul).

sōl (נפשׁ, nephesh; ψυχή, psuchḗ; Latin anima):
1. Shades of Meaning in the Old Testament:
(1) Soul, like spirit, has various shades of meaning in the Old Testament, which may be summarized as follows: “Soul,” “living being,” “life,” “self,” “person,” “desire,” “appetite,” “emotion” and “passion” (BDB under the word). In the first instance it meant that which breathes, and as such is distinguished from bāsār, “flesh” (Isa_10:18; Deu_12:23); from she'ēr, “the inner flesh,” next the bones (Pro_11:17, “his own flesh”); from beṭen, “belly” (Psa_31:10, “My soul and my belly are consumed with grief”), etc.
(2) As the life-breath, it departs at death (Gen_35:18; Jer_15:2). Hence, the desire among Old Testament saints to be delivered from Sheol (Psa_16:10, “Thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol”) and from shachath, “the pit” (Job_33:18, “He keepeth back his soul from the pit”; Isa_38:17, “Thou hast ... delivered it (my soul) from the pit of corruption”).
(3) By an easy transition the word comes to stand for the individual, personal life, the person, with two distinct shades of meaning which might best be indicated by the Latin anima and animus. As anima, “soul,” the life inherent in the body, the animating principle in the blood is denoted (compare Deu_12:23, Deu_12:24, 'Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the soul; and thou shalt not eat the soul with the flesh'). As animus, “mind,” the center of our mental activities and passivities is indicated. Thus we read of 'a hungry soul' (Psa_107:9), 'a weary soul' (Jer_31:25), 'a loathing soul' (Lev_26:11), 'a thirsty soul' (Psa_42:2), 'a grieved soul' (Job_30:25), 'a loving soul' (Son_1:7), and many kindred expressions. Cremer has characterized this use of the word in a sentence: “Nephesh (soul) in man is the subject of personal life, whereof pneúma or rūaḥ (spirit) is the principle” (Lexicon, under the word, 795).
(4) This individuality of man, however, may be denoted by pneuma as well, but with a distinction. Nephesh or “soul” can only denote the individual life with a material organization or body. Pneuma or “spirit” is not so restricted. Scripture speaks of “spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb_12:23), where there can be no thought of a material or physical or corporeal organization. They are “spiritual beings freed from the assaults and defilements of the flesh” (Delitzsch, in the place cited.). For an exceptional use of psuchē in the same sense see Rev_6:9; Rev_20:4, and (irrespective of the meaning of Psa_16:10) Act_2:27.
2. New Testament Distinctions:
(1) In the New Testament psuchē appears under more or less similar conditions as in the Old Testament. The contrast here is as carefully maintained as there. It is used where pneuma would be out of place; and yet it seems at times to be employed where pneuma might have been substituted. Thus in Joh_19:30 we read: “Jesus gave up his pneuma” to the Father, and, in the same Gospel (Joh_10:15), Jesus gave up His “psuchē for the sheep,” and in Mat_20:28 He gave His psuchē (not His pneuma) as a ransom - a difference which is characteristic. For the pneuma stands in quite a different relation to God from the psuchē. The “spirit” (pneuma) is the outbreathing of God into the creature, the life-principle derived from God. The “soul” (psuchē) is man's individual possession, that which distinguishes one man from another and from inanimate nature. The pneuma of Christ was surrendered to the Father in death; His psuchē was surrendered, His individual life was given “a ransom for many.” His life “was given for the sheep”
(2) This explains those expressions in the New Testament which bear on the salvation of the soul and its preservation in the regions of the dead. “Thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades” (the world of shades) (Act_2:27); “Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil” (Rom_2:9); “We are ... of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul” (Heb_10:39); “Receive ... the implanted word, which is able to save your souls” (Jas_1:21).
ISBE

Shalom
Johann

 

[B-A-C]

Here is a question to illustrate the problem. When God gives you a new spirit, where does the old one go?

Ezek 11:19; "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
Ezek 18:31; "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezek 36:26; "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I don't think it means so much a "new one" as in now there are two. But rather a "new one" as in a change of heart, a change of attitude.
The verses about mention a new heart also, but I know very few Christians that had a literal/physical heart transplant after becoming saved.

 

[joestue]

Friend of mine initially was taught and believed the tripart view, after 30 years of studying herminutics he slowly came to the much simpler bipart view, which is basically what I believe.

 

[Johann]

Friend of mine initially was taught and believed the tripart view, after 30 years of studying herminutics he slowly came to the much simpler bipart view, which is basically what I believe.

And would you say the soul is immortal?

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL (late Hebrew, "hasharat ha-nefesh"; "ḥayye 'olam"):
By: Kaufmann Kohler
Table of Contents
Hellenistic View.
Immortality of Martyrs.
In Jewish Philosophy.
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).

As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection).

Hellenistic View.
Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)
The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove. Consult especially E. Rhode, "Psyche: Seelencult und Unsterblichkeitsglaube der Griechen," 1894, pp. 555 et seq. A blessed immortality awaiting the spirit while the bones rest in the earth is mentioned in Jubilees xxiii. 31 and Enoch iii. 4. Immortality, the "dwelling near God's throne" "free from the load of the body," is "the fruit of righteousness," says the Book of Wisdom (i. 15; iii. 4; iv. 1; viii. 13, 17; xv. 3). In IV Maccabees, also (ix. 8, 22; x. 15; xiv. 5; xv. 2; xvi. 13; xvii. 5, 18), immortality of the soul is represented as life with God in heaven, and declared to be the reward for righteousness and martyrdom. The souls of the righteous are transplanted into heaven and transformed into holy souls (ib. xiii. 17, xviii. 23). According to Philo, the soul exists before it enters the body, a prison-house from which death liberates it; to return to God and live in constant contemplation of Him is man's highest destiny (Philo, "De Opificio Mundi," §§ 46, 47; idem, "De Allegoriis Legum," i., §§ 33, 65; iii., §§ 14, 37; idem, "Quis Rerum Divinarum Hæres Sit," §§ 38, 57).

It is not quite clear whether the Sadducees, in denying resurrection (Josephus, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 4; idem, "B. J." ii. 12; Mark xii. 18; Acts xxiii. 8; comp. Sanh. 90b), denied also the immortality of the soul (see Ab. R. N., recension B. x. [ed. Schechter, 26]). Certain it is that the Pharisaic belief in resurrection had not even a name for the immortality of the soul. For them, man was made for two worlds, the world that now is, and the world to come, where life does not end in death (Gen. R. viii.; Yer. Meg. ii. 73b; M. Ḳ. iii. 83b, where the words , Ps. xlviii. 15, are translated by Aquilas as if they read: , "no death," ἀθανασία).

Immortality of Martyrs.
The point of view from which the Ḥasidim regarded earthly existence was that man was born for another and a better world than this. Hence Abraham is told by God: "Depart from this vain world; leave the body and go to thy Lord among the good" (Testament of Abraham, i.). The immortality of martyrs was especially dwelt on by the Essenes (Josephus, "B. J." vii. 8, § 7; i. 33, § 2; comp. ii. 8, §§ 10, 14; idem, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 5). The souls of the righteous live like birds (See Jew. Encyc. iii. 219, s.v. Birds) in cages ("columbaria") guarded by angels (IV Esd. vii. 32, 95; Apoc. Baruch, xxi. 23, xxx. 2; comp. Shab. 152b). According to IV Esdras iv. 41 (comp. Yeb. 62a), they are kept in such cages () before entering upon earthly existence. The soul of martyrs also have a special place in heaven, according to Enoch (xxii. 12, cii. 4, cviii. 11 et seq.); whereas the Slavonic Enoch (xxiii. 5) teaches that "every soul was created for eternity before the foundation of the world." This Platonic doctrine of the preexistence of the soul (comp. Wisdom viii. 20; Philo, "De Gigantibus," §§ 3 et seq.; idem, "De Somniis," i., § 22) is taught also by the Rabbis, who spoke of a storehouse of the souls in the seventh heaven ("'Arabot"; Sifre, Deut. 344; Ḥag. 12b). In Gen. R. viii. the souls of the righteous are mentioned as counselors of God at the world's creation (comp. the Fravashi in "Farwardin Yast," in "S. B. E." xxiii. 179).

Upon the belief that the soul has a life of its own after death is based the following story: "Said Emperor Antoninus to Judah ha-Nasi, 'Both body and soul could plead guiltless on the day of judgment, as neither sinned without the other.' 'But then,' answered Judah, 'God reunites both for the judgment, holding them both responsible for the sin committed, just as in the fable the blind and the lame are punished in common for aiding each other in stealing the fruit of the orchard'" (Sanh. 91a; Lev. R. iv.). "There is neither eating nor drinking nor any sensual pleasure nor strife in the world to come, but the righteous with their crowns sit around the table of God, feeding upon the splendor of His majesty," said Rab (Ber. 17a), thus insisting that the nature of the soul when freed from the body is purely spiritual, while the common belief loved to dwell upon the banquet prepared for the pious in the world to come (see Eschatology; Leviathan). Hence the saying, "Prepare thyself in the vestibule that thou mayest be admitted into the triclinium"; that is, "Let this world be a preparation for the next" (Ab. iv. 16). The following sayings also indicate a pure conception of the soul's immortality: "The Prophets have spoken only concerning the Messianic future; but concerning the future state of the soul it is said: 'Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God beside Thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for Him'" (Ber. 34b; comp. I Cor. ii. 9, Greek; Resh, "Agrapha," 1889, p. 154). "When man dies," says R. Meïr, "three sets of angels go forth to welcome him" (Num. R. xii.); this can only refer to the disembodied soul.

Nevertheless, the prevailing rabbinical conception of the future world is that of the world of resurrection, not that of pure immortality. Resurrection became the dogma of Judaism, fixed in the Mishnah (Sanh. x. 1) and in the liturgy ("Elohai Neshamah" and "Shemoneh 'Esreh"), just as the Church knows only of a future based upon the resurrection; whereas immortality remained merely a philosophical assumption. When therefore Maimonides ("Yad," Teshubah, viii. 2) declared, with reference to Ber. 17a, quoted above, that the world to come is entirely spiritual, one in which the body and bodily enjoyments have no share, he met with strong opposition on the part of Abraham of Posquières, who pointed in his critical annotations ("Hassagot RABaD") to a number of Talmudical passages (Shab. 114a; Ket. 111a; Sanh. 91b) which leave no doubt as to the identification of the world to come ("'olam ha-ba") with that of the resurrection of the body.

In Jewish Philosophy.
The medieval Jewish philosophers without exception recognized the dogmatic character of the belief in resurrection, while on the other hand they insisted on the axiomatic character of the belief in immortality of the soul (see Albo, "'Iḳḳarim," iv. 35-41). Saadia made the dogma of the resurrectionpart of his speculation ("Emunot we-De'ot," vii. and ix.); Judah ha-Levi ("Cuzari," i. 109) accentuated more the spiritual nature of the future existence, the bliss of which consisted in the contemplation of God; whereas Maimonides, though he accepted the resurrection dogma in his Mishnah commentary (Sanh. xi.; comp. his monograph on the subject, "Ma'amar Teḥiyyat ha-Metim"), ignored it altogether in his code ("Yad," Teshubah, viii.); and in his "Moreh" (iii. 27, 51-52, 54; comp. "Yad," Yesode ha-Torah, iv. 9) he went so far as to assign immortality only to the thinkers, whose acquired intelligence ("sekel ha-niḳneh"), according to the Aristotelians, becomes part of the "active divine intelligence," and thus attains perfection and permanence. This Maimonidean view, which practically denies to the soul of man personality and substance and excludes the simple-minded doer of good from future existence, is strongly combated by Ḥasdai Crescas ("Or Adonai," ii. 5, 5; 6, 1) as contrary to Scripture and to common sense; he claims, instead, immortality for every soul filled with love for God, whose very essence is moral rather than intellectual, and consists in perfection and goodness rather than in knowledge (comp. also Gersonides, "Milḥamot ha-Shem," i. 13; Albo, "'Iḳḳarim," iv. 29). Owing to Crescas, and in opposition to Leibnitz's view that without future retribution there could be no morality and no justice in the world, Spinoza ("Ethics," v. 41) declared, "Virtue is eternal bliss; even if we should not be aware of the soul's immortality we must love virtue above everything."

While medieval philosophy dwelt on the intellectual, moral, or spiritual nature of the soul to prove its immortality, the cabalists endeavored to explain the soul as a light from heaven, after Prov. xx. 27, and immortality as a return to the celestial world of pure light (Baḥya b. Asher to Gen. i. 3; Zohar, Terumah, 127a). But the belief in the preexistence of the soul led the mystics to the adoption, with all its weird notions and superstitions, of the Pythagorean system of the transmigration of the soul (see Transmigration of Souls). Of this mystic view Manasseh ben Israel also was an exponent, as his "Nishmat Ḥayyim" shows.

It was the merit of Moses Mendelssohn, the most prominent philosopher of the deistic school in an era of enlightenment and skepticism, to have revived by his "Phædon" the Platonic doctrine of immortality, and to have asserted the divine nature of man by presenting new arguments in behalf of the spiritual substance of the soul (see Kayserling, "Moses Mendelssohn," 1862, pp. 148-169). Thenceforth Judaism, and especially progressive or Reform Judaism, emphasized the doctrine of immortality, in both its religious instruction and its liturgy (see Catechisms; Conferences, Rabbinical), while the dogma of resurrection was gradually discarded and, in the Reform rituals, eliminated from the prayer-books. Immortality of the soul, instead of resurrection, was found to be "an integral part of the Jewish creed" and "the logical sequel to the God-idea," inasmuch as God's faithfulness "seemed to point, not to the fulfilment of the promise of resurrection" given to those that "sleep in the dust," as the second of the Eighteen Benedictions has it, but to "the realization of those higher expectations which are sown, as part of its very nature, in every human soul" (Morris Joseph, "Judaism as Creed and Life," 1903, pp. 91 et seq.). The Biblical statement "God created man in his own image" (Gen. i. 27) and the passage "May the soul . . . be bound in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God" (I Sam. xxv. 29, Hebr.), which, as a divine promise and a human supplication, filled the generations with comfort and hope (Zunz, "Z. G." p. 350), received a new meaning from this view of man's future; and the rabbinical saying, "The righteous rest not, either in this or in the future world, but go from strength to strength until they see God on Zion" (Ber. 64a. after Ps. lxxxiv. 8 [A. V.]), appeared to offer an endless vista to the hope of immortality.

Bibliography:
Alger, Critical History of the Doctrine of a Future Life, with bibliography by Ezra Abbot, New York, 1867;
Charles, in Cheyne and Black, Encyc. Bibl. s.v. Eschatology;
Formstecher, Beiträge zur Entwicklungsgesch. des Begriffs der Unsterblichkeit der Seele, in Geiger's Wiss. Zeit. Jüd. Theol. iii. 231-249;
Hamburger, R. B. T. s.v. Unsterblichkeit;
Hastings, Dict. Bible, s.v. Eschatology;
Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc. s.v. Unsterblichkeit;
Manasseh ben Israel, Nishmat Ḥayyim, Amsterdam. 1652;
L. Philippson, Israelitische Religionslehre, 1862, ii. 231-270;
Paul Volz, Jüdische Eschatologie von Daniel bis Akiba, 1903;
F. Weber, System der Altsynagogalen Palästinischen Theologie, Leipsic, 1880, Index.

Shalom

 

[joestue]

3 years ago mike and I were talking with a guy who I never met before... He had some spiritual experiences after salvation that are interesting, if you accept them at face value, he was in his future resurrected body. New senses, more interesting than our 5.

Mike interrupted him and said, now imagine what it will be like for the unsaved, who will go to hell in that new body.

I had honestly not previously thought about it in that way.

Anyhow for the body and soul to be destroyed in hell means there must be a destruction process. Presumably that takes time .. perhaps the length of time will be according to your deeds.

Perhaps for some, it will be millions of equivalent earth years, whatever that means in a place where time will be no more.

 

[Butch5]

THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH
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Spirit and Soul Leaves Index
Introduction 1.1
#1.1 THE SOUL GIVES LIFE to THE BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
#1.2 THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE to THE BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
Introduction 1.1
There is one fundamental mistake that many people seem to make when teaching about death, and that is that they treat the soul or spirit and body as a single entity after death. This is wrong. The soul or spirit leaves the body at death and can no longer be coupled together with it as a single entity after that, until resurrection. To get the right understanding the spirit or soul have to be treated separately when people are dead. This bible study gives plenty of scripture evidence that the spirit or soul leaves the body at death.

#1.1 THE SOUL GIVES LIFE to THE BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
GENESIS 35:16-20
16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labor.
17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labor, that the midwife said to her, Do not fear; you shall have this son also.
18 And it came to pass, as her soul1 was departing, that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
20 And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave to this day.

1 KINGS 17:17-23
17 And it came to pass after these things, the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so severe, that there was no breath left in him.
18 And she said to Elijah, What have I to do with you, O you man of God? Have you come to me to call my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?
19 And he said to her, Give me your son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20 And he cried to Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh my God, have you also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by killing her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh my God, I pray you, let this child's soul1 come into him again.
22 And Yahweh heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul1 of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother: and Elijah said, See, your son lives.

ISAIAH 53:12
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul1 to death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

MATTHEW 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul2, but rather fear him who is able to ruin both body and soul in Gehenna.

REVELATION 6:9-11 (John)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls2 of those who were killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren who should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Note: In the Old Testament the Hebrew word translated soul1 is נֶפֶשׁ , 'nephesh' Strong's 5315. In Genesis 35:16-20 we see an account of Rachel giving birth to Benjamin. The labor was difficult and the scripture says, "Her soul was departing" (v18) "And Rachel died" (v19). It seems from this that when a person dies the soul departs; it goes somewhere but we are not told where it goes here. In the account of Elijah raising the widow's son from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-20) he prayed for the child's soul to come back into him. God answered his prayer and the child's soul entered into him and he came back alive. This refutes the false teaching that says the soul ceases to exist at death. Jesus "poured out his soul to death" (Isaiah 53:12) also confirms that the soul leaves when a person dies. In the New Testament the Greek word for soul2 is ψυχή 'psuche' Strong's 5590. It is basically the equivalent of the Hebrew 'nephesh' in the Septuagint but it is used more in a spiritual sense in the New Testament; the non-physical part of a human being. In Matthew 10:28 we are told that men can kill the body but not the soul. This is proof from the words of Jesus himself that you cannot treat the body and soul as being in the same condition when a person dies. The soul does not die when a person dies. Jesus also said, "Everyone who lives and believes in me shall certainly not die for ever." (John 11:26). Now those who heard him all died physically so he could only be referring to the soul or spirit. The soul leaves and goes somewhere. In Revelation 6:9-11 we are told that the souls of the righteous dead are under the altar, which is obviously in heaven (Revelation 8:1-3; 9:13; 14:17-18; 16:7). These were killed for their testimony and they were crying out (Revelation 6:10). They were not asleep, or non-existent, nor did they "know nothing" as some teach. They were receiving white robes (v11) and waiting for other Christians to be killed so that they could be resurrected when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

#1.2 THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE to the BODY and LEAVES the BODY at DEATH
JOB 34:14-15 (Elihu)
14 If he sets his heart upon man, if he gathers to himself his spirit1 and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again into dust.

PSALMS 104:29
29 You hide your face, they are troubled: you take away their spirit1, they die, and return to the dust.

ECCLESIASTES 3:21 (Solomon)
21 Who knows the spirit1 of man that goes upward, and the spirit1 of the beast that goes downward to the earth?

ECCLESIASTES 8:8 (Solomon)
8 There is no man who has power over the spirit1 to retain the spirit1; neither does he have power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those who are given to it.

ECCLESIASTES 12:7 (Solomon)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit1 shall return to God who gave it.

LUKE 8:54-55
54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, Child, arise!
55 And her spirit2 returned, and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat."

LUKE 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit2: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit.

JAMES 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit2 is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

REVELATION 11:9-12 (John)
9 And they of the people and tribes and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
10 And those who dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another; because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit2 of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those who saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies saw them.

Note: The word translated spirit1 in the above scriptures is the Hebrew word רוּחַ 'ruach' Strong's 7307. It occurs 378 times in the Old Testament and in the KJV it is translated Spirit or spirit (232x), wind (92x), breath (37x), side (6x), blast (4x), and 11 various other translations.
The word translated spirit2 in the above scriptures is the Greek word πνεῦμα 'pneuma' Strong's 4151. It occurs 385 times in the New Testament and is translated Spirit or spirit (273x), Ghost or ghost (91x), and various others (21x) in the KJV. Ecclesiastes 3:21 can be interpreted spiritually, so 'man' refers to a righteous man and 'beast' refers to a sinful man. This would indicate that a righteous spirit returns to God as Ecclesiastes 12:7 says, even as Jesus expected his to go to his Father (Luke 23:46). An unrighteous spirit goes to 'Sheol' in the Old Testament (Isaiah 14:9-10; Ezekiel 32:21) or 'Hades' in the New Testament (Luke 16:23). As the body without the spirit is dead (James 2:26) it seems obvious that the spirit must enter into a person again in order for it to come to life. This is exactly what happens as the spirit of Jairus' daughter returned for her to be resurrected (Luke 8:55), and also the two prophets (Revelation 11:11 KJV).

THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH

This bible study gives plenty of scripture evidence that the spirit or soul leaves the body at death.

www.logosapostolic.org

We may agree to disagree.
Shalom
Johann

This is based on a certain presupposition. For the sake of discussion why don't we define our terms. Let's come up with a Biblical definition of, body, soul, and breath or spirit. How does the Bible define them?

 

[Johann]

This is based on a certain presupposition. For the sake of discussion why don't we define our terms. Let's come up with a Biblical definition of, body, soul, and breath or spirit. How does the Bible define them?

You go first @Butch5 .....

Johann

 

[Butch5]

You go first @Butch5 .....

Johann

Sure! As per Genesis 2:7 man is the body formed from the elements of the earth. The breath or spirit is something that is breathed out of God and into man, thus, it is God not man. These two together form a soul. The breath or spirit of God and the man together are a living soul.

The words nephesh or psuche are used in two senses in the Scriptures. In a concrete sense they mean a living being. In an abstract sense they are used of life itself. These words are often translated life. Consider the passages you quoted. Rachel's life departed and she died. When Elijah prayed the man's life returned to him. It fits the context perfectly and we don't have some mysterious concept to deal with.

 

[Johann]

Sure! As per Genesis 2:7 man is the body formed from the elements of the earth. The breath or spirit is something that is breathed out of God and into man, thus, it is God not man. These two together form a soul. The breath or spirit of God and the man together are a living soul.

The words nephesh or psuche are used in two senses in the Scriptures. In a concrete sense they mean a living being. In an abstract sense they are used of life itself. These words are often translated life. Consider the passages you quoted. Rachel's life departed and she died. When Elijah prayed the man's life returned to him. It fits the context perfectly and we don't have some mysterious concept to deal with.

Guess there is nothing mysterious @Butch5

Johann

 

[Butch5]

Guess there is nothing mysterious @Butch5

Johann

Your turn. How do you define your terms?

 

[Johann]

Your turn. How do you define your terms?

Your turn. How do you define your terms?

Same as you.

 

[Johann]

Same as you.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Butch5]

Shalom
Johann

Sorry, I'll have to disagree with him. You and I don't have the same definition of the terms if you believe what he says.

 

[Johann]

Sorry, I'll have to disagree with him. You and I don't have the same definition of the terms if you believe what he says.

Just go by what Scriptures says, and Christians have a habit to disagree, speaking from experience.

No offense

I am a bit tired.

Johann