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THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH

I have shown you Butch, and I am familiar with eisegesis and exegesis, and circular reasoning, what is going on here is circular reasoning.

If eternal does not mean eternal, then it stands to reason that life eternal does not mean life eternal, yes?

Johann
Eternal means eternal. However, aion doesn't mean eternal.

I explained it already. If I go out for "a while" and cone back in 10 minutes does that mean "a while" is defined as 10 minutes?

What about if someone else goes out for "a while" and comes back in 30 minutes, is it no longer " a while" because it's not 10 minutes?
 
ζωην
G2222
N-ASF
ζωή
life
αιωνιον
G166
A-ASF
αἰώνιος
perpetual

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
So, @Butch5, if eternity is not eternity, then life eternal is NOT life eternal, yes?

αἰώνιος
aiṓnios; gen. aiōníou, masc.-fem., neut. aiṓnion, adj., also fem. aiōnía, neut. aiṓnion, from aiṓn (G165), age. Eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aiṓn (G165), to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. Aiō̄́nios is specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation, denoting those things which are not transitory. Meanings:
(I) Spoken chiefly of future time:
(A) Of God (Rom_16:26; 1Ti_6:16; Sept.: Gen_21:33; Isa_40:28).
(B) Of the blessedness of the righteous (Mat_19:29; Mat_25:46; Mar_10:30; Joh_3:15-16, Joh_3:36; Rom_2:7; 2Co_4:17). In some passages this zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal which is equivalent to the kingdom of God, and the entrance into life, means the entrance into the kingdom (Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:15; Mat_19:16; Act_13:46).
(C) Of the punishment of the wicked (Mat_18:8; Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46; Mar_3:29; 2Th_1:9; Heb_6:2; Jud_1:7; Sept.: Dan_12:2).
(D) Generally (2Co_4:18; 2Co_5:1; Heb_9:14; Heb_13:20; 1Jn_1:2; Rev_14:6; in Phm_1:15 aiṓnion, an adv. meaning forever, always). In the Sept.: diathḗkē aiṓnios (G1242), testament, covenant, meaning eternal covenant (Gen_9:16; Gen_17:7).
(II) Spoken of time past (Rom_16:25), chrónois aiōníois (from chrónos [G5550], time) meaning times eternal, ancient ages, of old (2Ti_1:9; Tit_1:2 meaning before time was, from eternity [cf. Sept.: Psa_24:7, Psa_24:9]).
Other references for this word include: Mar_10:17; Luk_10:25; Luk_16:9; Luk_18:18, Luk_18:30; Joh_4:14, Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25, Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2-3; Act_13:48; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22-23; Gal_6:8; 2Th_2:16; 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19; 2Ti_2:10; Tit_3:7; Heb_5:9; Heb_9:12, Heb_9:15; 1Pe_5:10; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:21.
(III) Spoken of endless duration. The expression zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal. Whenever it is used for the life which God gives to those who believe in Christ (Mat_19:16, Mat_19:29; Mat_25:46; Mar_10:30; Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18, Luk_18:30; Joh_3:15, Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14, Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25, Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2-3; Act_13:46, Act_13:48; Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22-23; Gal_6:8; 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19; Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7; 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:21), it is to be understood as referring not only to duration, but more so to quality. That is, it is not merely a life that is eternal in duration, but is primarily something different from the natural life of man, i.e., the life of God. The word which indicates no beginning and no end is aḯdios (G126), eternal.

You familiar with Allos and Heteros?

Assumptions are also rife on this Forum, no offense @Butch5, what makes you think you are right in all the doctrines and others are "in error"

What I post here is to glorify Christ Jesus, not me, my intellect, or achievements.
Again, if eternity is not eternity, then life eternal is not life eternal, see your reasoning?
If you were here a while you see that there are quite a few topics I don't post on. That's because I don't feel well versed on those topics. However, this one I am well-versed on.

But this is just ignoring the subject at hand.

I didn't say eternity doesn't mean eternity. I said aion doesn't mean eternity.

It's interesting that you mention circular reasoning. That's just ehatbthis post is. This statement is circular reasoning.

"Again, if eternity is not eternity, then life eternal is not life eternal, see your reasoning?"
 
ζωην















G2222















N-ASF















ζωή















life















αιωνιον















G166















A-ASF















αἰώνιος















perpetual































Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?















So, @Butch5, if eternity is not eternity, then life eternal is NOT life eternal, yes?































αἰώνιος















aiṓnios; gen. aiōníou, masc.-fem., neut. aiṓnion, adj., also fem. aiōnía, neut. aiṓnion, from aiṓn (G165), age. Eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aiṓn (G165), to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. Aiō̄́nios is specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation, denoting those things which are not transitory. Meanings:















(I) Spoken chiefly of future time:















(A) Of God (Rom_16:26; 1Ti_6:16; Sept.: Gen_21:33; Isa_40:28).















(B) Of the blessedness of the righteous (Mat_19:29; Mat_25:46; Mar_10:30; Joh_3:15-16, Joh_3:36; Rom_2:7; 2Co_4:17). In some passages this zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal which is equivalent to the kingdom of God, and the entrance into life, means the entrance into the kingdom (Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:15; Mat_19:16; Act_13:46).















(C) Of the punishment of the wicked (Mat_18:8; Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46; Mar_3:29; 2Th_1:9; Heb_6:2; Jud_1:7; Sept.: Dan_12:2).















(D) Generally (2Co_4:18; 2Co_5:1; Heb_9:14; Heb_13:20; 1Jn_1:2; Rev_14:6; in Phm_1:15 aiṓnion, an adv. meaning forever, always). In the Sept.: diathḗkē aiṓnios (G1242), testament, covenant, meaning eternal covenant (Gen_9:16; Gen_17:7).















(II) Spoken of time past (Rom_16:25), chrónois aiōníois (from chrónos [G5550], time) meaning times eternal, ancient ages, of old (2Ti_1:9; Tit_1:2 meaning before time was, from eternity [cf. Sept.: Psa_24:7, Psa_24:9]).















Other references for this word include: Mar_10:17; Luk_10:25; Luk_16:9; Luk_18:18, Luk_18:30; Joh_4:14, Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25, Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2-3; Act_13:48; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22-23; Gal_6:8; 2Th_2:16; 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19; 2Ti_2:10; Tit_3:7; Heb_5:9; Heb_9:12, Heb_9:15; 1Pe_5:10; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:21.















(III) Spoken of endless duration. The expression zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal. Whenever it is used for the life which God gives to those who believe in Christ (Mat_19:16, Mat_19:29; Mat_25:46; Mar_10:30; Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18, Luk_18:30; Joh_3:15, Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14, Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25, Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2-3; Act_13:46, Act_13:48; Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22-23; Gal_6:8; 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19; Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7; 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:21), it is to be understood as referring not only to duration, but more so to quality. That is, it is not merely a life that is eternal in duration, but is primarily something different from the natural life of man, i.e., the life of God. Since it is His life God gives to the believer through Christ, and He is endless, His life imparted must be endless, although the life He gives to the believer has a beginning. The word which indicates no beginning and no end is aḯdios (G126), eternal.































You familiar with Allos and Heteros?



So life eternal in Christ Jesus may/may not mean a "length of time"

It is not about my Olam or yours, but what stands written...if eternity is not eternity then eternal life is not eternal life, yes @Butch5?

ζωην
G2222
N-ASF
ζωή
life
αιωνιον
G166
A-ASF
αἰώνιος
perpetual

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
So, @Butch5, if eternity is not eternity, then life eternal is NOT life eternal, yes?

αἰώνιος
aiṓnios; gen. aiōníou, masc.-fem., neut. aiṓnion, adj., also fem. aiōnía, neut. aiṓnion, from aiṓn (G165), age. Eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aiṓn (G165), to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. Aiō̄́nios is specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation, denoting those things which are not transitory. Meanings:
(I) Spoken chiefly of future time:
(A) Of God (Rom_16:26; 1Ti_6:16; Sept.: Gen_21:33; Isa_40:28).
(B) Of the blessedness of the righteous (Mat_19:29; Mat_25:46; Mar_10:30; Joh_3:15-16, Joh_3:36; Rom_2:7; 2Co_4:17). In some passages this zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal which is equivalent to the kingdom of God, and the entrance into life, means the entrance into the kingdom (Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:15; Mat_19:16; Act_13:46).
(C) Of the punishment of the wicked (Mat_18:8; Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46; Mar_3:29; 2Th_1:9; Heb_6:2; Jud_1:7; Sept.: Dan_12:2).
(D) Generally (2Co_4:18; 2Co_5:1; Heb_9:14; Heb_13:20; 1Jn_1:2; Rev_14:6; in Phm_1:15 aiṓnion, an adv. meaning forever, always). In the Sept.: diathḗkē aiṓnios (G1242), testament, covenant, meaning eternal covenant (Gen_9:16; Gen_17:7).
(II) Spoken of time past (Rom_16:25), chrónois aiōníois (from chrónos [G5550], time) meaning times eternal, ancient ages, of old (2Ti_1:9; Tit_1:2 meaning before time was, from eternity [cf. Sept.: Psa_24:7, Psa_24:9]).
Other references for this word include: Mar_10:17; Luk_10:25; Luk_16:9; Luk_18:18, Luk_18:30; Joh_4:14, Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25, Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2-3; Act_13:48; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22-23; Gal_6:8; 2Th_2:16; 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19; 2Ti_2:10; Tit_3:7; Heb_5:9; Heb_9:12, Heb_9:15; 1Pe_5:10; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:21.
(III) Spoken of endless duration. The expression zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal. Whenever it is used for the life which God gives to those who believe in Christ (Mat_19:16, Mat_19:29; Mat_25:46; Mar_10:30; Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18, Luk_18:30; Joh_3:15, Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14, Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25, Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2-3; Act_13:46, Act_13:48; Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22-23; Gal_6:8; 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19; Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7; 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:13, 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:21), it is to be understood as referring not only to duration, but more so to quality. That is, it is not merely a life that is eternal in duration, but is primarily something different from the natural life of man, i.e., the life of God. Since it is His life God gives to the believer through Christ, and He is endless, His life imparted must be endless, although the life He gives to the believer has a beginning. The word which indicates no beginning and no end is aḯdios (G126), eternal.

You familiar with Allos and Heteros?
This statement to is a logical fallacy. it's a non-Sequitur.

"Since it is His life God gives to the believer through Christ, and He is endless, His life imparted must be endless, although the life He gives to the believer has a beginning."

This is what I was talking about. Christians make bad arguments to defend their doctrines. Because not enough Christians are taught critical thinking, they fall prey to such fallacious arguments. This is why so many get lead to believe things that simply aren't true. This is another reason for all of the denominations.
 
@Johann If I said, God is eternal, I guess He's going to be around "a while". Is "a while" now defined as eternal?
 
@Johann If I said, God is eternal, I guess He's going to be around "a while". Is "a while" now defined as eternal?


Friend, I have asked you, what makes you think you are right in all your doctrines?
2Sa_15:11 And with Absalom went two hundred men out of Jerusalem, that were called; and they went in their simplicity, and they knew not any thing.

Pro_1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Rom_12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2Co_11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


Just because I disagree with your hypothesis, and you disagree with me, we are now "enemies of the Cross?!"

I have stated on numerous cases that I am here to learn, yet so far I have seen some erroneous doctrines by some, with an unyielding, unteachable spirit.

I am not a lone ranger, I hold myself accountable to a few, and accountability is Imperative.

These are the teachings you hold on Eternal/Aion

I have stated my case, and we need to rightly divide the word of truth, we have received chesed upon chesed, superabounding to more chesed.

I mean, how does this come across, "You are wrong, I am right!".....that's pride right there friend.

Shalom
Johann
 
If you were here a while you see that there are quite a few topics I don't post on. That's because I don't feel well versed on those topics. However, this one I am well-versed on.

But this is just ignoring the subject at hand.

I didn't say eternity doesn't mean eternity. I said aion doesn't mean eternity.

It's interesting that you mention circular reasoning. That's just ehatbthis post is. This statement is circular reasoning.

"Again, if eternity is not eternity, then life eternal is not life eternal, see your reasoning?"

...which you have no answer for, and have not answered me directly.

Also indicative that you have not read what I have posted to you, to have a constructive dialogue in the pneuma of shalom.

Johann.
 
...and the amazing thing is that this "topic" is nor a salvific issue @Butch5, we are majoring on non essentials.

Johann
I'm not so sure about that. The basis of this subject is, "What is a man"? How we define what a man is has major implications on how we interpret Scripture. I think the two most important doctrines for understanding Scripture are, the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man. If we get these two wrong we're likely to get the rest wrong too. These two different views of man cause us to interpret the Scriptures differently. The view that man lives on after death requires that he be somewhere after death, thus we get the erroneous doctrines of the Heavenly Destiny and Eternal Torment. Neither of these are Scriptural. On the other hand, if man is a physical being that ceases to exist at death, then neither the Heavenly Destiny nor the Eternal Torment doctrines are possible. The first view forces people to understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally. The second view sees that it must be a parable since the dead aren't alive.
 
...which you have no answer for, and have not answered me directly.



Also indicative that you have not read what I have posted to you, to have a constructive dialogue in the pneuma of shalom.



Johann.

I have answered it. Eternity means eternity. But, eternity is not the word in question. The word in question is aion, and that cannot mean eternity
 
I'm not so sure about that. The basis of this subject is, "What is a man"? How we define what a man is has major implications on how we interpret Scripture. I think the two most important doctrines for understanding Scripture are, the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man. If we get these two wrong we're likely to get the rest wrong too. These two different views of man cause us to interpret the Scriptures differently. The view that man lives on after death requires that he be somewhere after death, thus we get the erroneous doctrines of the Heavenly Destiny and Eternal Torment. Neither of these are Scriptural. On the other hand, if man is a physical being that ceases to exist at death, then neither the Heavenly Destiny nor the Eternal Torment doctrines are possible. The first view forces people to understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally. The second view sees that it must be a parable since the dead aren't alive.

You left a number of questions unanswered and now this.

I knew you were dead set against eternal, conscious damnation..."How can a loving God torment sinners?"

Oh yes, we are the clay, He is the Potter, yes?

Can you tell YHVH what to do and not to do?

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
the depth. FS176, +Num_24:5, T275, Rom_8:39, +1Ch_29:11 (T214). Job_17:8; Job_21:5; Job_23:14; Job_28:14, *Psa_36:6; Psa_77:19; Psa_92:5; Psa_97:2; *Psa_107:8, etc. Pro_18:3; Pro_25:2-3, Ecc_3:11, Isa_12:1-6; Isa_25:1-9, 1Co_2:10, Eph_3:18.
riches. FS22D5I, +Pro_8:18, Rom_11:12, *+Rom_2:4; *Rom_9:23; *Rom_10:12, Psa_104:24, *Eph_1:7; *Eph_2:4; *Eph_2:7; Eph_3:8; Eph_3:10; Eph_3:16, **Php_4:19, +*Col_1:27; *Col_2:2; *Col_2:3, Tit_3:6.
wisdom. T222, Rom_16:27, Job_5:13, Psa_104:24; Psa_139:6, Pro_3:19; Pro_8:12, Isa_28:29, +Jer_10:12 (T142). Jer_51:15, Dan_2:20-21, 1Co_1:21; 1Co_1:25; 1Co_2:6-7, Eph_1:8; *Eph_3:9; *Eph_3:10, *Col_2:2; *Col_2:3, 1Ti_1:17, *Jud_1:25.
and knowledge. Gr. gnōsis (S# G1108). Rom_2:20; Rom_15:14, Psa_139:6; Psa_147:5, Jer_32:25, Luk_1:77; *Luk_11:52, 1Co_1:5; 1Co_8:1; 1Co_8:7; 1Co_8:10-11; 1Co_12:8; 1Co_13:2; 1Co_14:6, 2Co_2:14; 2Co_4:6; 2Co_6:6; 2Co_8:7; *2Co_10:5; 2Co_11:6, Eph_3:19, Php_3:8, Col_2:3, 1Ti_6:20 (science). 1Pe_3:7, 2Pe_1:5-6; +*2Pe_3:18.
how unsearchable. or, inscrutable. +**Gen_18:25 note. Deu_29:29, Job_5:9; Job_9:10; Job_10:13; *+Job_11:7-10; Job_26:14; Job_33:13; Job_34:24 mg. Job_37:5; Job_37:19; Job_37:23, Psa_36:6; Psa_40:5; Psa_73:16; Psa_77:19; Psa_92:5; Psa_97:2; Psa_106:2; Psa_131:1; Psa_139:6; Psa_145:3; Psa_147:5, Pro_25:2, Ecc_3:11, *Isa_40:28, *+Dan_4:3; *+Dan_4:35, +*Mat_28:19 note. Eph_3:8 g. Rev_15:8.
are his judgments. Gr. krima (S# G2917). Rom_11:32, Rom_2:2 g, Rom_2:3 g. Rom_3:8 g. Rom_5:16 g. Rom_13:2 g. Jdg_20:25, 2Ki_23:29, 1Ch_16:12, *Job_4:17; Job_9:4, Ecc_5:8, Isa_46:10, Mat_7:2 g. Mat_11:26; Mat_23:14 g (damnation). Mar_12:40 g. Luk_20:47 g. Luk_23:40 g (condemnation). Luk_24:20 g. Joh_9:39 g. Act_24:25 g. 1Co_6:7 g (law). 1Co_11:29 g, 1Co_11:34 g. Gal_5:10 g. 1Ti_3:6 g. *1Ti_5:12 g. *Heb_6:2 g. *Jas_3:1 g. *1Pe_4:17 g. 2Pe_2:3 g (judgment). +Jud_1:4 g. Rev_17:1 g. Rev_18:20 g (avenged). *Rev_20:4 g.
his ways. *Deu_29:29, 1Ch_17:4, Est_2:22; Est_6:1, Job_11:7; Job_28:7; Job_28:23, Isa_28:29, Act_2:23; Act_13:10, Eph_3:19, *Heb_3:10.
past finding out. or, untraceable. Eph_3:8 g. FS98, Homoeopropheron; or, Alliteration F/S 175, The repetition of the same letter or syllable at the commencement of successive words. Here, "unsearchable" and "finding out" (anexerunēta, anexichniastoi) (for other instances of this figure see 1Th_1:2; 1Th_5:23; Heb_1:1). Pro_25:2; Pro_30:3, Ecc_7:24; *Ecc_8:17; *Ecc_11:5, Isa_19:12; Isa_40:28; Isa_45:15, Eze_1:16; Eze_10:10, 1Co_2:11.


You cannot "study YHVH in a legalistic manner" @Butch5

No more than "study" the [doctrine of man]

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What denomination are you affiliated with?

And are you concerned about the practical side re the gospel as in Matthew 25 or do you just want to redefine Scriptures, Perfect Tense?

Johann.
 
Friend, I have asked you, what makes you think you are right in all your doctrines?

2Sa_15:11 And with Absalom went two hundred men out of Jerusalem, that were called; and they went in their simplicity, and they knew not any thing.



Pro_1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?



Rom_12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.



2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.



2Co_11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.



Just because I disagree with your hypothesis, and you disagree with me, we are now "enemies of the Cross?!"



I have stated on numerous cases that I am here to learn, yet so far I have seen some erroneous doctrines by some, with an unyielding, unteachable spirit.



I am not a lone ranger, I hold myself accountable to a few, and accountability is Imperative.



These are the teachings you hold on Eternal/Aion




I have stated my case, and we need to rightly divide the word of truth, we have received chesed upon chesed, superabounding to more chesed.



I mean, how does this come across, "You are wrong, I am right!".....that's pride right there friend.



Shalom

Johann

Friend, I have asked you, what makes you think you are right in all your doctrines?
2Sa_15:11 And with Absalom went two hundred men out of Jerusalem, that were called; and they went in their simplicity, and they knew not any thing.

Pro_1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Rom_12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2Co_11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Just because I disagree with your hypothesis, and you disagree with me, we are now "enemies of the Cross?!"

I have stated on numerous cases that I am here to learn, yet so far I have seen some erroneous doctrines by some, with an unyielding, unteachable spirit.

I am not a lone ranger, I hold myself accountable to a few, and accountability is Imperative.

These are the teachings you hold on Eternal/Aion

I have stated my case, and we need to rightly divide the word of truth, we have received chesed upon chesed, superabounding to more chesed.

I mean, how does this come across, "You are wrong, I am right!".....that's pride right there friend.

Shalom
Johann
Not at all. I have repeatedly tried to have open dialog. Yet several here have refused. You claim aion means eternal. I pointed out that Jesus said it ends. Then I asked how can something that ends be eternal. What did I get? Crickets. Everyone side stepped the question. That doesn't seem to me like people are trying to have open dialog. It seems more like, "I'm right and you're wrong" and I'll just ignore what doesn't fit my theology?

Open dialog would be. Ok, how do we reconcile these seeming differences? How can we understand God's word as a coherent whole as opposed to a bunch of disjointed sentences? You say you're here to learn, then why aren't you addressing the questions I ask? I suggested we define out terms for sake of discussion. I defined mine then asked you to do the same. You said they were the same as mine. You posted a video with that post. The terms as defined in the video were vastly different than mine. So, I really don't know where you stand. How do you define you terms, like mine or like the video?

You said you're here to learn yet have seen some erroneous doctrines presented by some. That doesn't seem to be a questioning position. You've already determined that some doctrines are erroneous. Have you investigated them? Have you engaged my arguments to see if they are sound and valid, or have you dismissed them because they're not what you already believe?

You asked what makes me think I'm right in all of my doctrines. I answered this once. I only get into these discussions on doctrines I'm well versed in. So, this not "all" of my doctrines.

However, to the question of why do I think I'm right? That question could be asked of everyone here. Why do you think you're right? That question seems to me to be a distraction to get off the topic. But, to answer your question, I think I'm right because my understanding accounts for "all" of the passages on the subject. There is harmony with all of the passages. I don't have passages that don't fit or seem to contradict my position. Harmony is the key to understanding correctly. When we say aion means eternity we have a problem, Jesus said it ends. I don't have those problems. That's why I believe I'm correct.
 
Not at all. I have repeatedly tried to have open dialog. Yet several here have refused. You claim aion means eternal. I pointed out that Jesus said it ends. Then I asked how can something that ends be eternal. What did I get? Crickets. Everyone side stepped the question. That doesn't seem to me like people are trying to have open dialog. It seems more like, "I'm right and you're wrong" and I'll just ignore what doesn't fit my theology?

Open dialog would be. Ok, how do we reconcile these seeming differences? How can we understand God's word as a coherent whole as opposed to a bunch of disjointed sentences? You say you're here to learn, then why aren't you addressing the questions I ask? I suggested we define out terms for sake of discussion. I defined mine then asked you to do the same. You said they were the same as mine. You posted a video with that post. The terms as defined in the video were vastly different than mine. So, I really don't know where you stand. How do you define you terms, like mine or like the video?

You said you're here to learn yet have seen some erroneous doctrines presented by some. That doesn't seem to be a questioning position. You've already determined that some doctrines are erroneous. Have you investigated them? Have you engaged my arguments to see if they are sound and valid, or have you dismissed them because they're not what you already believe?

You asked what makes me think I'm right in all of my doctrines. I answered this once. I only get into these discussions on doctrines I'm well versed in. So, this not "all" of my doctrines.

However, to the question of why do I think I'm right? That question could be asked of everyone here. Why do you think you're right? That question seems to me to be a distraction to get off the topic. But, to answer your question, I think I'm right because my understanding accounts for "all" of the passages on the subject. There is harmony with all of the passages. I don't have passages that don't fit or seem to contradict my position. Harmony is the key to understanding correctly. When we say aion means eternity we have a problem, Jesus said it ends. I don't have those problems. That's why I believe I'm correct.

Good for you Butch

Let's agree to disagree, and move on...in no way, shape or form was I or come across as being "evasive"

I have stated my case, from the rabbinical viewpoint and from the Western viewpoint and the heteros nuances and differences.

Here's another piece of information, I don't hold to the doctrines of the reformers, the Armenians or that of Calvin.

We are going to have to peel of the layers, one by one, to come to the only aleithia and chochmah in the Person of Christ Jesus.

The one dodging is you brother, if you believe in the cessation of the nefesh, the destruction of it, you are in error.

Yes?

Johann
 
Good for you Butch

Let's agree to disagree, and move on...in no way, shape or form was I or come across as being "evasive"

I have stated my case, from the rabbinical viewpoint and from the Western viewpoint and the heteros nuances and differences.

Here's another piece of information, I don't hold to the doctrines of the reformers, the Armenians or that of Calvin.

We are going to have to peel of the layers, one by one, to come to the only aleithia and chochmah in the Person of Christ Jesus.

The one dodging is you brother, if you believe in the cessation of the nefesh, the destruction of it, you are in error.

Yes?

Johann

...and do quote scriptures upon certain points, instead of making assumptions my brother.

I have asked you if you are aware of the rules for engagement in a debate/dialogue, yes?

Shalom
Johann
 
You left a number of questions unanswered and now this.

I knew you were dead set against eternal, conscious damnation..."How can a loving God torment sinners?"

Oh yes, we are the clay, He is the Potter, yes?

Can you tell YHVH what to do and not to do?

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
the depth. FS176, +Num_24:5, T275, Rom_8:39, +1Ch_29:11 (T214). Job_17:8; Job_21:5; Job_23:14; Job_28:14, *Psa_36:6; Psa_77:19; Psa_92:5; Psa_97:2; *Psa_107:8, etc. Pro_18:3; Pro_25:2-3, Ecc_3:11, Isa_12:1-6; Isa_25:1-9, 1Co_2:10, Eph_3:18.
riches. FS22D5I, +Pro_8:18, Rom_11:12, *+Rom_2:4; *Rom_9:23; *Rom_10:12, Psa_104:24, *Eph_1:7; *Eph_2:4; *Eph_2:7; Eph_3:8; Eph_3:10; Eph_3:16, **Php_4:19, +*Col_1:27; *Col_2:2; *Col_2:3, Tit_3:6.
wisdom. T222, Rom_16:27, Job_5:13, Psa_104:24; Psa_139:6, Pro_3:19; Pro_8:12, Isa_28:29, +Jer_10:12 (T142). Jer_51:15, Dan_2:20-21, 1Co_1:21; 1Co_1:25; 1Co_2:6-7, Eph_1:8; *Eph_3:9; *Eph_3:10, *Col_2:2; *Col_2:3, 1Ti_1:17, *Jud_1:25.
and knowledge. Gr. gnōsis (S# G1108). Rom_2:20; Rom_15:14, Psa_139:6; Psa_147:5, Jer_32:25, Luk_1:77; *Luk_11:52, 1Co_1:5; 1Co_8:1; 1Co_8:7; 1Co_8:10-11; 1Co_12:8; 1Co_13:2; 1Co_14:6, 2Co_2:14; 2Co_4:6; 2Co_6:6; 2Co_8:7; *2Co_10:5; 2Co_11:6, Eph_3:19, Php_3:8, Col_2:3, 1Ti_6:20 (science). 1Pe_3:7, 2Pe_1:5-6; +*2Pe_3:18.
how unsearchable. or, inscrutable. +**Gen_18:25 note. Deu_29:29, Job_5:9; Job_9:10; Job_10:13; *+Job_11:7-10; Job_26:14; Job_33:13; Job_34:24 mg. Job_37:5; Job_37:19; Job_37:23, Psa_36:6; Psa_40:5; Psa_73:16; Psa_77:19; Psa_92:5; Psa_97:2; Psa_106:2; Psa_131:1; Psa_139:6; Psa_145:3; Psa_147:5, Pro_25:2, Ecc_3:11, *Isa_40:28, *+Dan_4:3; *+Dan_4:35, +*Mat_28:19 note. Eph_3:8 g. Rev_15:8.
are his judgments. Gr. krima (S# G2917). Rom_11:32, Rom_2:2 g, Rom_2:3 g. Rom_3:8 g. Rom_5:16 g. Rom_13:2 g. Jdg_20:25, 2Ki_23:29, 1Ch_16:12, *Job_4:17; Job_9:4, Ecc_5:8, Isa_46:10, Mat_7:2 g. Mat_11:26; Mat_23:14 g (damnation). Mar_12:40 g. Luk_20:47 g. Luk_23:40 g (condemnation). Luk_24:20 g. Joh_9:39 g. Act_24:25 g. 1Co_6:7 g (law). 1Co_11:29 g, 1Co_11:34 g. Gal_5:10 g. 1Ti_3:6 g. *1Ti_5:12 g. *Heb_6:2 g. *Jas_3:1 g. *1Pe_4:17 g. 2Pe_2:3 g (judgment). +Jud_1:4 g. Rev_17:1 g. Rev_18:20 g (avenged). *Rev_20:4 g.
his ways. *Deu_29:29, 1Ch_17:4, Est_2:22; Est_6:1, Job_11:7; Job_28:7; Job_28:23, Isa_28:29, Act_2:23; Act_13:10, Eph_3:19, *Heb_3:10.
past finding out. or, untraceable. Eph_3:8 g. FS98, Homoeopropheron; or, Alliteration F/S 175, The repetition of the same letter or syllable at the commencement of successive words. Here, "unsearchable" and "finding out" (anexerunēta, anexichniastoi) (for other instances of this figure see 1Th_1:2; 1Th_5:23; Heb_1:1). Pro_25:2; Pro_30:3, Ecc_7:24; *Ecc_8:17; *Ecc_11:5, Isa_19:12; Isa_40:28; Isa_45:15, Eze_1:16; Eze_10:10, 1Co_2:11.


You cannot "study YHVH in a legalistic manner" @Butch5

No more than "study" the [doctrine of man]

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What denomination are you affiliated with?

And are you concerned about the practical side re the gospel as in Matthew 25 or do you just want to redefine Scriptures, Perfect Tense?

Johann.

Notice....you...I am quoting "random verses" but you fail to see my point @Butch5

How many questions have I asked, none answered?
 
So, I really don't know where you stand. How do you define you terms, like mine or like the video?

I stand upon the TSUR, Yesod wich is Yeshua HaMashiach, and His emes

“I give solemn edut to everyone hearing the divrei haNevu'ah of this sefer: if anyone adds to them, Hashem will add to him the makkot (plagues) which are written in this sefer; [DEVARIM 4:2; 12:32; MISHLE 30:6]
OJB.

Shalom brother.
 
The view that man lives on after death requires that he be somewhere after death, thus we get the erroneous doctrines of the Heavenly Destiny and Eternal Torment. Neither of these are Scriptural. On the other hand, if man is a physical being that ceases to exist at death, then neither the Heavenly Destiny nor the Eternal Torment doctrines are possible. The first view forces people to understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally. The second view sees that it must be a parable since the dead aren't alive.

Yes, the "views and creeds" but not according to Scriptures.

Johann
 
I'm not so sure about that. The basis of this subject is, "What is a man"? How we define what a man is has major implications on how we interpret Scripture. I think the two most important doctrines for understanding Scripture are, the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man. If we get these two wrong we're likely to get the rest wrong too. These two different views of man cause us to interpret the Scriptures differently. The view that man lives on after death requires that he be somewhere after death, thus we get the erroneous doctrines of the Heavenly Destiny and Eternal Torment. Neither of these are Scriptural. On the other hand, if man is a physical being that ceases to exist at death, then neither the Heavenly Destiny nor the Eternal Torment doctrines are possible. The first view forces people to understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally. The second view sees that it must be a parable since the dead aren't alive.

Let's try again....
YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE

Jewish Spirituality and the Soul
MOURN

YouTube Image
Jewish Resurrection of the Dead
AFTERLIFE



Does consciousness persist after our last breath? Does a part of us live on after our bodies die and decay?

Most major religions believe so. Yet there is remarkably little in early Jewish sources on this question.

In the Five Books of Moses, the first five volumes of the Hebrew Bible, what happens to an individual after death is hardly addressed. The paucity of statements on the afterlife led some Jewish scholars to assert that there was no separation of body and soul in the Bible, that both body and soul effectively perish together. But others point to a phrase that appears ten times in the Torah as evidence of belief that the soul survives after the body dies.

In describing the deaths of six key figures — Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Aaron, and Moses — the Torah states a variation of “he died, his soul was gathered to his kin, and he was buried.” What is the significance of this middle phrase between death and burial? Some medieval commentators suggest that it referred to the gathering of souls into the collective of the righteous dead. Modern biblical scholars have found a similar phrase relating to an afterlife in the writing of other ancient Near East peoples.

Later books of the Bible are similarly ambiguous. Psalm 115:17 states “the dead will not praise you,” which seems to point to a rejection of consciousness after death. But other scriptural passages suggest otherwise. Jeremiah 31:15 describes the matriarch Rachel long after her death weeping for her exiled children. The reader is left to wonder if the image is literal or a metaphor.

The most explicit account of survival of consciousness is in Samuel I, when King Saul seeks out the Witch of Endor in an attempt to channel the Prophet Samuel, who had died. The witch succeeds in channeling the prophet, who replies: “Why are you bothering me. I am on the other side. Tomorrow, you, King Saul, and your sons will join me.” Sure enough, the next day, Saul and his two sons are slain in battle.


By the start of the Common Era, the rabbis began to promote belief in the survival of the soul. The Mishnah (Sanhedrin 10:1) famously promises: “All of Israel have a place in the World to Come,” which some rabbis understood as a state of disembodied closeness to the creator. The implication is that if you lived as a member of the people of Israel, you lived in relationship with God and that relationship would persist on the soul level even after death. In Pirkei Avot 4:21, Rabbi Yaakov taught: “This world is like a passageway to the World to Come. Prepare yourself in the passageway that you will be worthy to enter into the banquet room.”

By the third century, a rabbinic consensus grew that body and soul were distinct and that a person’s soul might elevate in their lifetime to a higher plane of spiritual consciousness. This belief may have been influenced by Greece and other surrounding cultures that espoused such a dualism, or it may have arisen independently as a product of shared human experience.

The Talmud (Mo’ed Katan 28a) tells a story of Raba, a third-century Babylonian sage, who as his friend Rav Nahman approached death, requested that he come back and tell him what the passage was like. After Nahman dies, he appears to Raba in a dream and says: “It was like a hair being pulled from a cup of milk and yet, I would not want to do it again for the fear of dying is so painful.” This story conveys that a dimension of consciousness persists that may communicate with the living.

This story and others like it are in tension with a commandment repeated twice in the Bible — in Leviticus 19:31 and Deuteronomy 18:10-11 — prohibiting seeking out “a medium to speak with the dead.” The rabbis of the Talmud, who largely assumed that such communion was indeed possible, narrowly defined the biblical laws as only referring to mediums who engage in idolatrous practices. Many centuries later, Rabbi Moses Isserles, in his commentary on the 16th-century code of Jewish law known as the Shulchan Arukh, permitted speaking with the spirit of the dead as long as it is not to the corpse itself.

Today, many of us, no doubt influenced by the scientific model of believing only what can be seen and measured, tend to look askance at the notion of the soul’s survival, for which we only have circumstantial evidence from such phenomena as near-death experiences, mediums, and apparitions. Yet many Jews nevertheless hold to the belief that some form of consciousness survives after our last breath, even though fully understanding how that’s possible eludes us.

Maimonides wrote that to try and explain the World to Come to a person in a body is like describing color to a person who is blind from birth. Likewise, when Rabbi Harold Kushner was once asked if he believed in the survival of the soul, he replied: “Yes, as a matter of faith, but I do not grasp what it means to be only a soul. For when I think of Harold I think of the voice that you are hearing and the person that I see in the mirror. I am not sure who Harold is without this body.”

In sum, traditional Judaism evolved to explicitly acknowledge that with the last breath, the soul separates from the body and persists as a form of consciousness. The nature of the World to Come would remain a subject of dispute, with some rabbis understanding it to refer to resurrection of the dead while others describe it as a realm of spirits returning to their Divine source. Still later, Jeiwsh sources in the mystical tradition advanced the idea of the soul’s reincarnation.

What all these differing Jewish beliefs share in common is the faith that we are more than our bodies and that a dimension of consciousness, soul, survives death eternally.

Would you get this information from "Modernistic Western viewpoints?"

Hard questions needs to be asked, but with a preparedness to discard preconceived notions and ideologies.
Notice my transparency to you, giving you the links, but you discard them brother, is it because they are from rabbinical scholars and not Western?

Just a thought
I have plenty more resources, just ask.

Johann
 
If we get these two wrong we're likely to get the rest wrong too. These two different views of man cause us to interpret the Scriptures differently. The view that man lives on after death requires that he be somewhere after death, thus we get the erroneous doctrines of the Heavenly Destiny and Eternal Torment. Neither of these are Scriptural.

I have proven you to be wrong @Butch5, from the Torah to the B'rit Chadashah

Now the onus is on you to find out.

Johann
 
Let's try again....
YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE

Jewish Spirituality and the Soul
MOURN

YouTube Image
Jewish Resurrection of the Dead
AFTERLIFE



Does consciousness persist after our last breath? Does a part of us live on after our bodies die and decay?

Most major religions believe so. Yet there is remarkably little in early Jewish sources on this question.

In the Five Books of Moses, the first five volumes of the Hebrew Bible, what happens to an individual after death is hardly addressed. The paucity of statements on the afterlife led some Jewish scholars to assert that there was no separation of body and soul in the Bible, that both body and soul effectively perish together. But others point to a phrase that appears ten times in the Torah as evidence of belief that the soul survives after the body dies.

In describing the deaths of six key figures — Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Aaron, and Moses — the Torah states a variation of “he died, his soul was gathered to his kin, and he was buried.” What is the significance of this middle phrase between death and burial? Some medieval commentators suggest that it referred to the gathering of souls into the collective of the righteous dead. Modern biblical scholars have found a similar phrase relating to an afterlife in the writing of other ancient Near East peoples.

Later books of the Bible are similarly ambiguous. Psalm 115:17 states “the dead will not praise you,” which seems to point to a rejection of consciousness after death. But other scriptural passages suggest otherwise. Jeremiah 31:15 describes the matriarch Rachel long after her death weeping for her exiled children. The reader is left to wonder if the image is literal or a metaphor.

The most explicit account of survival of consciousness is in Samuel I, when King Saul seeks out the Witch of Endor in an attempt to channel the Prophet Samuel, who had died. The witch succeeds in channeling the prophet, who replies: “Why are you bothering me. I am on the other side. Tomorrow, you, King Saul, and your sons will join me.” Sure enough, the next day, Saul and his two sons are slain in battle.


By the start of the Common Era, the rabbis began to promote belief in the survival of the soul. The Mishnah (Sanhedrin 10:1) famously promises: “All of Israel have a place in the World to Come,” which some rabbis understood as a state of disembodied closeness to the creator. The implication is that if you lived as a member of the people of Israel, you lived in relationship with God and that relationship would persist on the soul level even after death. In Pirkei Avot 4:21, Rabbi Yaakov taught: “This world is like a passageway to the World to Come. Prepare yourself in the passageway that you will be worthy to enter into the banquet room.”

By the third century, a rabbinic consensus grew that body and soul were distinct and that a person’s soul might elevate in their lifetime to a higher plane of spiritual consciousness. This belief may have been influenced by Greece and other surrounding cultures that espoused such a dualism, or it may have arisen independently as a product of shared human experience.

The Talmud (Mo’ed Katan 28a) tells a story of Raba, a third-century Babylonian sage, who as his friend Rav Nahman approached death, requested that he come back and tell him what the passage was like. After Nahman dies, he appears to Raba in a dream and says: “It was like a hair being pulled from a cup of milk and yet, I would not want to do it again for the fear of dying is so painful.” This story conveys that a dimension of consciousness persists that may communicate with the living.

This story and others like it are in tension with a commandment repeated twice in the Bible — in Leviticus 19:31 and Deuteronomy 18:10-11 — prohibiting seeking out “a medium to speak with the dead.” The rabbis of the Talmud, who largely assumed that such communion was indeed possible, narrowly defined the biblical laws as only referring to mediums who engage in idolatrous practices. Many centuries later, Rabbi Moses Isserles, in his commentary on the 16th-century code of Jewish law known as the Shulchan Arukh, permitted speaking with the spirit of the dead as long as it is not to the corpse itself.

Today, many of us, no doubt influenced by the scientific model of believing only what can be seen and measured, tend to look askance at the notion of the soul’s survival, for which we only have circumstantial evidence from such phenomena as near-death experiences, mediums, and apparitions. Yet many Jews nevertheless hold to the belief that some form of consciousness survives after our last breath, even though fully understanding how that’s possible eludes us.

Maimonides wrote that to try and explain the World to Come to a person in a body is like describing color to a person who is blind from birth. Likewise, when Rabbi Harold Kushner was once asked if he believed in the survival of the soul, he replied: “Yes, as a matter of faith, but I do not grasp what it means to be only a soul. For when I think of Harold I think of the voice that you are hearing and the person that I see in the mirror. I am not sure who Harold is without this body.”

In sum, traditional Judaism evolved to explicitly acknowledge that with the last breath, the soul separates from the body and persists as a form of consciousness. The nature of the World to Come would remain a subject of dispute, with some rabbis understanding it to refer to resurrection of the dead while others describe it as a realm of spirits returning to their Divine source. Still later, Jeiwsh sources in the mystical tradition advanced the idea of the soul’s reincarnation.

What all these differing Jewish beliefs share in common is the faith that we are more than our bodies and that a dimension of consciousness, soul, survives death eternally.

Would you get this information from "Modernistic Western viewpoints?"

Hard questions needs to be asked, but with a preparedness to discard preconceived notions and ideologies.
Notice my transparency to you, giving you the links, but you discard them brother, is it because they are from rabbinical scholars and not Western?

Just a thought
I have plenty more resources, just ask.

Johann

What about this, of which you are in denial.....
Jewish Resurrection of the Dead
By Maurice Lamm
« Previous
Messiah
Next »
A Corollary of Jewish Belief
The body returns to the earth, dust to dust, but the soul returns to God who gave it. This doctrine of the immortality of the soul is affirmed not only by Judaism and other religions, but by many secular philosophers as well. Judaism, however, also believes in the eventual resurrection of the body, which will be reunited with the soul at a later time on a "great and awesome day of the Lord." The human form of the righteous men of all ages, buried and long since decomposed, will be resurrected at God's will.


The most dramatic portrayal of this bodily resurrection is to be found in the "Valley of Dry Bones" prophecy in Ezekiel 37, read as the Haftorah on the Intermediate Sabbath of Passover. It recalls past deliverances and envisions the future redemption of Israel and the eventual quickening of the dead:

The hand of the Lord was upon me, and the Lord carried me out in a spirit, and set me down in the midst of the valley, and it was full of bones;
and He caused me to pass by them round about, and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
And He said unto me: "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered: "0 Lord, God, Thou knowest."
Then He said unto me: "Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them: '0 ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."'
So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
And I beheld, and, lo, there were sinews upon them and flesh came up, and skin covered them above; but there was no breath in them.
Then said He unto me: "Prophesy unto the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath: 'Thus saith the Lord God: Come from the four winds, 0 breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'
So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great host.
Then He said unto me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say: 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we can clean cut off.'
Therefore, prophesy, and say unto them: 'Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, 0 my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, 0 My people. And I will put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land; and ye shall know that I the Lord have spoken, and performed it, saith the Lord."'

The power of this conviction can be gauged not only by the quality of the lives of the Jews, their tenacity and gallantry in the face of death, but in the very real fear instilled in their enemies. After destroying Jerusalem and callously decimating its Jewish population, Titus, the Roman general, returned home with only a portion of his Tenth Legion. When asked whether he had lost all of his other men on the battlefield, Titus gave assurance that his men were alive, but that they were still on combat duty. He had left them to stand guard over Jewish corpses in the fields of Jerusalem because he was sincerely afraid that their bodies would be resurrected and they would reconquer the Holy Land as they had promised.

The belief in a bodily resurrection appears, at first sight, to be incredible to the contemporary mind. But when approached from the God's-eye view, why is rebirth more miraculous than birth? The adhesion of ***** and egg, the subsequent fertilization and development in the womb culminating in the birth of the astoundingly complex network of tubes and glands, bones and organs, their incredibly precise functioning and the unbelievably intricate human brain that guides them, is surely a miracle of the first magnitude. Curiously, the miraculous object, man himself, takes this for granted. In his preoccupation with daily trivia, he ignores the miracle of his own existence. The idea of rebirth may appear strange because we have never experienced a similar occurrence, for which reason we cannot put together the stuff of imagination. Perhaps it is because we can be active in creating life, but cannot participate with God in the recreation of life. Perhaps it is becuase, scientifically, recreation flies against any biological theory, while we are slowly coming to know how life is developed, and our researchers are about to create life in the laboratory test tube. But, who has created the researching biologist? And, can we not postulate an omnipotent Divine Biologist who created all men? Surely resurrection is not beyond the capacity of an omnipotent God.

The sages simplified the concept of bodily resurrection by posing an analogy which brings it within the experience of man. A tree, once alive with blossoms and fruit, full of the sap of life, stands cold and still in the winter. Its leaves have browned and fallen, its fruit rots on the ground. But the warm rains come and the sun shines. Buds sprout. Green leaves appear. Colorful fruits burst from their seed. With the coming of spring, God resurrects nature. For this reason the blessing of God for reviving the dead, which is recited in every daily Amidah, incorporates also the seasonal requests for rain. When praying for the redemption of man, the prayerbook uses the phrase matzmi'ach yeshuah, "planting salvation." Indeed, the talmud compares the day of resurrection with the rainy season, and notes that the latter is even more significant-for resurrection serves only the righteous while the rain falls indiscriminately on all men.

This is one, supplementary reason why the body and all its limbs require to be interred in the earth and not cremated, for it expresses our faith in the future resurrection. Naturally, the all-powerful God can recreate the body whether it was buried or drowned or burned. Yet, willful cremation signifies an arrogant denial of the possibility of resurrection, and those who deny this cardinal principle should not share in the reward for its observance. The body and its limbs-whether amputated before death, or during a permissible post-mortem examination-have to be allowed to decompose as one complete organism by the processes of nature, not by man's mechanical act.

Resurrection: A Symbolic Idea
Some contemporary thinkers have noted that the physical revival of the dead is symbolic of a cluster of basic Jewish ideas:

First, man does not achieve the ultimate redemption by virtue of his own inherent nature. It is not because he, uniquely, possesses an immortal soul that he, inevitably, will be resurrected. The concept of resurrection underscores man's reliance on God who, in the words of the prayerbook, "Wakes the dead in great mercy." It is His grace and His mercy that rewards the deserving, and revives those who sleep in the dust.

Second, resurrection is not only a private matter, a bonus for the righteous individual. It is a corporate reward. All of the righteous of all ages, those who stood at Sinai, and those of our generation, will be revived. The community of the righteous has a corporate and historic character. It will live again as a whole people. The individual, even in death, is not separated from the society in which he lived.

Third, physical resurrection affirms unequivocally that man's soul and his body are the creations of a holy God. There is a tendency to assume that the affirmation of a spiritual dimension in man must bring with it the corollary that his physical being is depreciated. Indeed, such has been the development of the body-soul duality in both the Christian tradition and in Oriental religions, and accounts for their glorification of asceticism. Further, even the Greek philosophers who were enamored of the beauty of the body, came to denigrate the physical side of man. They crowned reason as man's noblest virtue. For them the spiritualintellectual endeavor to perceive the unchanging truth was the highest function of man. Man's material existence, on the other hand, was always in flux, subject to change and, therefore, inferior. Thus, they accepted immortality of the soul-which to the Greeks was what we call mind-which survives the extinction of his physical being. But they could not understand physical resurrection because they did not, by any means, consider the body worthy of being reborn.

To the contrary, Judaism has always stressed that the body, as the soul, is a gift of God—indeed, that it belongs to God. Ha'neshamah lach ve'haguf pa'alach, the Jew declared, "The soul is yours, and the body is your handiwork." To care for the body is a religious command of the Bible. The practice of asceticism for religious purposes was tolerated, but the ascetic had to bring a sacrifice of atonement for his action. Resurrection affirms that the body is of value because it came from God, and it will be revived by God. Resurrection affirms that man's empirical existence is valuable in God's eyes. His activities in this world are significant in the scheme of eternity. His strivings are not to be deprecated as vain and useless, but are to be brought to fulfillment at the end of days.

The concept of resurrection thus serves to keep God ever in man's consciousness, to unify contemporary and historic Jewry, to affirm the value of God's world, and to heighten, rather than to depress, the value of man's worthy strivings in this world.

Which specific virtues might guarantee a person's resurrection is a subject of much debate. The method of resurrection is, of course, an open question that invites conjecture, but which can offer no definite answer.

While the details of the after-life are thus very much a matter of speculation, the traditional consensus must serve to illuminate the dark path. In the words of Rabbi Joshua ben Chanania (Niddah 70b) : "When they come to life again, we will consult about the matter."

 
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