THE SPIRIT and SOUL LEAVE the BODY at DEATH

[Johann]

What about this, of which you are in denial.....
Jewish Resurrection of the Dead
By Maurice Lamm
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A Corollary of Jewish Belief
The body returns to the earth, dust to dust, but the soul returns to God who gave it. This doctrine of the immortality of the soul is affirmed not only by Judaism and other religions, but by many secular philosophers as well. Judaism, however, also believes in the eventual resurrection of the body, which will be reunited with the soul at a later time on a "great and awesome day of the Lord." The human form of the righteous men of all ages, buried and long since decomposed, will be resurrected at God's will.

The most dramatic portrayal of this bodily resurrection is to be found in the "Valley of Dry Bones" prophecy in Ezekiel 37, read as the Haftorah on the Intermediate Sabbath of Passover. It recalls past deliverances and envisions the future redemption of Israel and the eventual quickening of the dead:

The hand of the Lord was upon me, and the Lord carried me out in a spirit, and set me down in the midst of the valley, and it was full of bones;
and He caused me to pass by them round about, and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
And He said unto me: "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered: "0 Lord, God, Thou knowest."
Then He said unto me: "Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them: '0 ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."'
So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
And I beheld, and, lo, there were sinews upon them and flesh came up, and skin covered them above; but there was no breath in them.
Then said He unto me: "Prophesy unto the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath: 'Thus saith the Lord God: Come from the four winds, 0 breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'
So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great host.
Then He said unto me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say: 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we can clean cut off.'
Therefore, prophesy, and say unto them: 'Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, 0 my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, 0 My people. And I will put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land; and ye shall know that I the Lord have spoken, and performed it, saith the Lord."'

The power of this conviction can be gauged not only by the quality of the lives of the Jews, their tenacity and gallantry in the face of death, but in the very real fear instilled in their enemies. After destroying Jerusalem and callously decimating its Jewish population, Titus, the Roman general, returned home with only a portion of his Tenth Legion. When asked whether he had lost all of his other men on the battlefield, Titus gave assurance that his men were alive, but that they were still on combat duty. He had left them to stand guard over Jewish corpses in the fields of Jerusalem because he was sincerely afraid that their bodies would be resurrected and they would reconquer the Holy Land as they had promised.

The belief in a bodily resurrection appears, at first sight, to be incredible to the contemporary mind. But when approached from the God's-eye view, why is rebirth more miraculous than birth? The adhesion of ***** and egg, the subsequent fertilization and development in the womb culminating in the birth of the astoundingly complex network of tubes and glands, bones and organs, their incredibly precise functioning and the unbelievably intricate human brain that guides them, is surely a miracle of the first magnitude. Curiously, the miraculous object, man himself, takes this for granted. In his preoccupation with daily trivia, he ignores the miracle of his own existence. The idea of rebirth may appear strange because we have never experienced a similar occurrence, for which reason we cannot put together the stuff of imagination. Perhaps it is because we can be active in creating life, but cannot participate with God in the recreation of life. Perhaps it is becuase, scientifically, recreation flies against any biological theory, while we are slowly coming to know how life is developed, and our researchers are about to create life in the laboratory test tube. But, who has created the researching biologist? And, can we not postulate an omnipotent Divine Biologist who created all men? Surely resurrection is not beyond the capacity of an omnipotent God.

The sages simplified the concept of bodily resurrection by posing an analogy which brings it within the experience of man. A tree, once alive with blossoms and fruit, full of the sap of life, stands cold and still in the winter. Its leaves have browned and fallen, its fruit rots on the ground. But the warm rains come and the sun shines. Buds sprout. Green leaves appear. Colorful fruits burst from their seed. With the coming of spring, God resurrects nature. For this reason the blessing of God for reviving the dead, which is recited in every daily Amidah, incorporates also the seasonal requests for rain. When praying for the redemption of man, the prayerbook uses the phrase matzmi'ach yeshuah, "planting salvation." Indeed, the talmud compares the day of resurrection with the rainy season, and notes that the latter is even more significant-for resurrection serves only the righteous while the rain falls indiscriminately on all men.

This is one, supplementary reason why the body and all its limbs require to be interred in the earth and not cremated, for it expresses our faith in the future resurrection. Naturally, the all-powerful God can recreate the body whether it was buried or drowned or burned. Yet, willful cremation signifies an arrogant denial of the possibility of resurrection, and those who deny this cardinal principle should not share in the reward for its observance. The body and its limbs-whether amputated before death, or during a permissible post-mortem examination-have to be allowed to decompose as one complete organism by the processes of nature, not by man's mechanical act.

Resurrection: A Symbolic Idea
Some contemporary thinkers have noted that the physical revival of the dead is symbolic of a cluster of basic Jewish ideas:

First, man does not achieve the ultimate redemption by virtue of his own inherent nature. It is not because he, uniquely, possesses an immortal soul that he, inevitably, will be resurrected. The concept of resurrection underscores man's reliance on God who, in the words of the prayerbook, "Wakes the dead in great mercy." It is His grace and His mercy that rewards the deserving, and revives those who sleep in the dust.

Second, resurrection is not only a private matter, a bonus for the righteous individual. It is a corporate reward. All of the righteous of all ages, those who stood at Sinai, and those of our generation, will be revived. The community of the righteous has a corporate and historic character. It will live again as a whole people. The individual, even in death, is not separated from the society in which he lived.

Third, physical resurrection affirms unequivocally that man's soul and his body are the creations of a holy God. There is a tendency to assume that the affirmation of a spiritual dimension in man must bring with it the corollary that his physical being is depreciated. Indeed, such has been the development of the body-soul duality in both the Christian tradition and in Oriental religions, and accounts for their glorification of asceticism. Further, even the Greek philosophers who were enamored of the beauty of the body, came to denigrate the physical side of man. They crowned reason as man's noblest virtue. For them the spiritualintellectual endeavor to perceive the unchanging truth was the highest function of man. Man's material existence, on the other hand, was always in flux, subject to change and, therefore, inferior. Thus, they accepted immortality of the soul-which to the Greeks was what we call mind-which survives the extinction of his physical being. But they could not understand physical resurrection because they did not, by any means, consider the body worthy of being reborn.

To the contrary, Judaism has always stressed that the body, as the soul, is a gift of God—indeed, that it belongs to God. Ha'neshamah lach ve'haguf pa'alach, the Jew declared, "The soul is yours, and the body is your handiwork." To care for the body is a religious command of the Bible. The practice of asceticism for religious purposes was tolerated, but the ascetic had to bring a sacrifice of atonement for his action. Resurrection affirms that the body is of value because it came from God, and it will be revived by God. Resurrection affirms that man's empirical existence is valuable in God's eyes. His activities in this world are significant in the scheme of eternity. His strivings are not to be deprecated as vain and useless, but are to be brought to fulfillment at the end of days.

The concept of resurrection thus serves to keep God ever in man's consciousness, to unify contemporary and historic Jewry, to affirm the value of God's world, and to heighten, rather than to depress, the value of man's worthy strivings in this world.

Which specific virtues might guarantee a person's resurrection is a subject of much debate. The method of resurrection is, of course, an open question that invites conjecture, but which can offer no definite answer.

While the details of the after-life are thus very much a matter of speculation, the traditional consensus must serve to illuminate the dark path. In the words of Rabbi Joshua ben Chanania (Niddah 70b) : "When they come to life again, we will consult about the matter."

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/Jewish-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm#:~:text=Jewish%20Resurrection%20of,about%20the%20matter.%22

Item Information | The greatness of the soul and unspeakableness of the loss thereof with the causes of the losing it : first preached at Pinners-Hall, and now enlarged and published for good / by John Bunyan. | Early English Books Online | Universit

Love you @Butch5 and not being facetious with you.

But Scriptures clearly teaches otherwise than that what you are "holding"

Are we buying, or selling?

Shalom
Johann

 

[Butch5]

Love you @Butch5 and not being facetious with you.

But Scriptures clearly teaches otherwise than that what you are "holding"

Are we buying, or selling?

Shalom
Johann

It seems they're equating the soul and the breath/spirit. They are not the same.

Notice....you...I am quoting "random verses" but you fail to see my point @Butch5

How many questions have I asked, none answered?

I haven't failed to see your point. As I said, I used to believe as you do. What I've tried to explain is that you have a certain set of presuppositions. I used to hold many of the same. It's those presuppositions that are the issue. You can quote Scripture, the Rabbis, the Midrash, and any other source you'd like. Until you address the presuppositions you're not going to see things differently.

This is why you're forced to present the opinions of others. This is why your forced to present "inferences" drawn fron Scriputre.

There's an old saying, "you don't know what you don't know". Until you learn what you don't know you'll continue in the same old patterns. When you learn what you don't know you see things from a different perspective.

 

[Johann]

I'm not so sure about that. The basis of this subject is, "What is a man"? How we define what a man is has major implications on how we interpret Scripture. I think the two most important doctrines for understanding Scripture are, the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man. If we get these two wrong we're likely to get the rest wrong too. These two different views of man cause us to interpret the Scriptures differently. The view that man lives on after death requires that he be somewhere after death, thus we get the erroneous doctrines of the Heavenly Destiny and Eternal Torment. Neither of these are Scriptural. On the other hand, if man is a physical being that ceases to exist at death, then neither the Heavenly Destiny nor the Eternal Torment doctrines are possible. The first view forces people to understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally. The second view sees that it must be a parable since the dead aren't alive.

Let's....

IMMORTALITY.

“Exemption from death and annihilation”; with reference to man,
unending personal existence beyond the grave.

Scripture Doctrine.

Viewed strictly, the idea of man’s future life is not altogether
identical with that of his immortality. And yet practically the question, “If a man die shall he
live again?” covers the whole matter.


The Old Testament. The idea of individual immortality is not as prominently and
emphatically set forth in the OT as in the NT. It was the purpose and method of the OT
writers to present, not so much the contrast between the present and the future, as that
between the chosen people and the heathen nations.


It is national life, and not that of
individuals, that occupies the foremost place. Nevertheless, the assertion, made even by
certain Christian writers, that the doctrine of the future life is not taught in the OT Scriptures,
is unwarranted.


And the supposition, which has sometimes been entertained, that the
patriarchs and prophets and the Jewish people generally held no such doctrine is
unreasonable and opposed to fact.


It is to ascribe to them lower views of man’s nature and
future destiny than prevailed among the nations with which they came in contact. It is to
regard the recipients and custodians of special revelation as less enlightened than others to
whom such privileges had not been afforded. That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute.


And there is sufficient evidence to show that such had been their belief during the
preceding centuries of their history. For example, such common expressions as “was gathered
to his people,” along with the prohibition of necromancy, or invocation of the dead, clearly
testify to the popular Hebrew belief in continued conscious existence beyond the grave.

I have given you a number of resources, verifiable sources, to back this up.


If the
number of passages in the OT explicitly affirming this doctrine is not large, it should not,
therefore, be a matter of trivial objection. The fact of life after death is taken for granted. Its
recognition pervades the general drift or spirit of these ancient Scriptures. Thus man is
represented as created in the image of God and therefore a creature whose chief existence is
spiritual, not to be obliterated by the death of the body.

His highest good is constantly set
before us, as found in the divine favor and fellowship. All temporal good is insignificant in
comparison with this. “The prosperity of the wicked” is not to be envied, because of the
“end” that is realized in “the sanctuary.” In the same place of clear and holy light is seen the
contrasted condition and prospect of the righteous. “I am continually with Thee; Thou hast
taken hold of my right hand.

With Thy counsel Thou wilt guide me, and afterward receive me
to glory” (Ps. 73). Thus the whole drift or tendency is to turn the thoughts of the people from
the present toward the future. And besides, there are several places in the OT where the
doctrine of a future life is plainly asserted. The sixteenth psalm, especially as connected with
the apostolic comments (Acts 2:27; 13:35), is a case in point (see also Ps. 17:15; Isa. 26:19;
Dan. 12:2–3).


The New Testament. In 2 Tim. 1:10 Paul speaks of Christ, “who abolished death, and
brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” Literally the phrase “brought … to
light” means “has illuminated,” or “shed light upon.”

It is certainly not implied here that the
doctrine of immortality was unknown to the world before Christ came, for some sort of belief
in that doctrine had been common, if not universal, among the Gentile nations as well as
among the Jews.

It means that “the gospel pours light upon and discloses the author, origin,
and true nature of life and immortality to our view” (see Whedon, Com., on above passage).


It should be added that not only among the Jews had some (particularly the Sadducees) cast
away the belief and hope of a future life, but also false philosophy and prevailing corruption
had weakened or destroyed the faith of many among the Gentiles. The mission of Christ,
therefore, was not only to “shed light upon immortality” by means of definite and
authoritative instruction but also by His life and death and resurrection to make it possible for
men to attain to an immortality that should be blessed.

Accordingly, we find explicit
utterances from Christ in large number with respect to this subject. He argued with the
Sadducees against their unbelief. And His argument is significant as showing not only His
own affirmation of a future deathless life but also His affirmation of that doctrine as taught in
the OT (see Luke 20:27–38).

He taught the doctrine plainly, illustrating it with parables; it
ran as a solemn undertone through all His teachings (see Matt. 5:12; 8:11–12; 12:32; 13:36,
43; 18:8–9; 22:11–13; 25:1–13, 31–46; Mark 8:35–37; Luke 12:4–5; 13:24–29; 16:19–31;
18:29–30; John 3:16; 5:39–40; 6:47–58; 10:28; 11:25; 14:1–6; etc.). It should be noted that,
in the passages referred to, Christ speaks of the future, not only of the righteous but also of
the wicked; also, that He speaks of a blessed immortality as attainable only through Himself.

The teachings of the apostles, as found in other parts of the NT, are as we might expect,
equally explicit with those of Christ. It is unnecessary to cite illustrations. As it has well been
said, “the obligation which even in this respect the world owes to the Gospel of the Cross is
one which cannot be overrated” (Van Oosterzee).


Theological. By immortality theologians frequently mean the survival of the spiritual part
of man after physical death. However, it must be clearly kept in mind that immortality is not
mere existence after death. Death does not end human life, whether in the case of the saved or
unsaved.

In fact, the tenet of the immortality of the soul alone is unknown in Scripture. The
Bible does not look at this disembodied existence as life or completed happiness. The biblical
concept of immortality is a deathlessness of the whole person, the body particularly as united
to the soul and spirit. Therefore, it may be said that immortality refers to the body, the
material part of man, but as this affects the whole man including soul and spirit.

Immortality,
then, is not simply a future conscious condition, however prolonged, but a state of
deliverance, of bliss, due to redemption and the possession of a glorified body united to the
soul and the spirit. It therefore includes resurrection and a perfected life in body, soul, and
spirit.

Immortality and Eternal Life. Immortality is not identical with the gift of eternal life,
which all believers in Christ possess. Believers who possess eternal life, as well as
unbelievers, suffer death. The only possibility of a believer’s not dying is the coming of the
Lord and the instantaneous glorification of his human body (1 Cor. 15:51–53; 1 Thess. 4:13–
17). The possession of eternal life guarantees a future immortal body either by translation or
resurrection, but the body of the saved person is only potentially immortal (Rom. 8:22–23; 2
Cor. 5:1–5). All who have eternal life are thus guaranteed the future immortality of the body,
that is, they are promised either resurrection unto life or translation unto glory. In either case
the result is the same—namely, a glorified body that is immortal, deathless, painless, and
sinless, united to the redeemed soul and spirit. This fully redeemed personality is what the
Bible means by immortality. Unsaved people who do not possess eternal life possess a mortal
body that will never be immortal. Their soul and spirit will go on existing forever but their
body, raised for judgment, will suffer “the second death” at the sinner’s judgment of the
white throne (Rev. 20:14). This is not annihilation. This is eternal conscious existence in
separation from God, and thus torment and what is called “fire which burns with brimstone.”

Com. Commentary
Apparently the term “second death” implies the dissolution or corruption of the resurrected
body of the unsaved whose personality does not possess immortality. Only those who believe
on Christ, “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no
man has seen or can see” (1 Tim. 6:16), obtain that same immortality that Christ, as the
Firstfruit, secured by His death and resurrection. Immortality, then, is brought “to light
through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10).


The heathen concept of the immortality of the soul is not
biblical. Immortality belongs to the realm of the body as it affects the whole redeemed man.
Immortality and the Believer’s Hope. No believer yet has an immortal body. Christ alone,
who did not see corruption (Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:31), possesses such a body as the glorified Son
of Man in heaven. He put on immortality over a mortal body, that is, His body that died on
the cross. By His redemptive work on the cross and His resurrection He “brought life and
immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10). The cross of Christ guaranteed the
glorification of the human body of the believer, whether by translation or resurrection. No
unbeliever has this hope. Although the Christian’s body may suffer dissolution, as the body
of the unsaved person’s does, yet only the believer in Christ can look forward to an immortal
body joined to a deathless soul and spirit.

Thus Christ’s redemption extends to the entire
personality. It is not a shadowy, disembodied existence in Sheol or Hades. It is a full
deliverance. Thus it may be said that immortality cannot be correctly used of the soul. It must
be posited of the incorruption or incorruptibility of the body as it affects the whole man. The
destiny of the believer is to be transformed “into conformity with the body of His glory”
(Phil. 3:21). This body will be suitable for our “citizenship” in heaven (3:20). All Christians
will see the dissolution of the human body, except those who will be living at the end of the
age when Christ returns. They will be translated without seeing death. This is what the
apostle means in 2 Cor. 5:4: “while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we
do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed
up by life.” All other Christians will see corruption, or death (that is, the separation of the
body from the soul and spirit).

They, however, will receive immortality or be clothed with
immortality by resurrection. Resurrection may be defined as the reunion of the soul and spirit
with the body in the glorified form; deathless, sinless, painless, fatigueless.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: J. Orr, The Christian View of God and the World (1947); L. S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (1948), 2:152–53, 155; C. Hodge, Systematic Theology (1950), 3:716ff.;
L. Boettner, Immortality (1956); R. Martin-Achard, From Death to Life (1960); G. C.
Berkouwer, Man: The Image of God (1962), pp. 234–78; D. Winter, Hereafter (1973); R. A.
Morey, Death and the Afterlife (1984); H. D. F. Salmond, The Biblical Doctrine of
Immortality (1984).
Unger.

Johann.

 

[Butch5]

I have proven you to be wrong @Butch5, from the Torah to the B'rit Chadashah

Now the onus is on you to find out.

Johann

Proven me wrong? You haven't yet defined your terms.

If you want to prove me wrong it's pretty simple. Just show where the Bible teaches that man has an immortal soul. Show us were the Prophets, Jesus, or the apostles have a teaching that man has an immortal soul. If you can do that then you'll negate my argument about hell, Lazarus and the Rich Man, and this subject. There you go, you could kill three birds with one stone. Just direct me to that teaching.

 

[Johann]

Proven me wrong? You haven't yet defined your terms.

If you want to prove me wrong it's pretty simple. Just show where the Bible teaches that man has an immortal soul. Show us were the Prophets, Jesus, or the apostles have a teaching that man has an immortal soul. If you can do that then you'll negate my argument about hell, Lazarus and the Rich Man, and this subject. There you go, you could kill three birds with one stone. Just direct me to that teaching.

Two questions, actually three.

Who started the doctrine of the immortality of the nephesh?

Who started the doctrine of annihilation/destruction of the nefesh?

And, where do we go when we die, as believers in Christ Jesus?

Now, since you believed like me, and now don't believe like me...see if you can convince me of my beliefs, from scriptures, and I will drop my beliefs to match your beliefs.

Good enough?

 

[Butch5]

Let's....

IMMORTALITY.

“Exemption from death and annihilation”; with reference to man,
unending personal existence beyond the grave.

Scripture Doctrine.

Viewed strictly, the idea of man’s future life is not altogether
identical with that of his immortality. And yet practically the question, “If a man die shall he
live again?” covers the whole matter.


The Old Testament. The idea of individual immortality is not as prominently and
emphatically set forth in the OT as in the NT. It was the purpose and method of the OT
writers to present, not so much the contrast between the present and the future, as that
between the chosen people and the heathen nations.


It is national life, and not that of
individuals, that occupies the foremost place. Nevertheless, the assertion, made even by
certain Christian writers, that the doctrine of the future life is not taught in the OT Scriptures,
is unwarranted.


And the supposition, which has sometimes been entertained, that the
patriarchs and prophets and the Jewish people generally held no such doctrine is
unreasonable and opposed to fact.


It is to ascribe to them lower views of man’s nature and
future destiny than prevailed among the nations with which they came in contact. It is to
regard the recipients and custodians of special revelation as less enlightened than others to
whom such privileges had not been afforded. That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute.


And there is sufficient evidence to show that such had been their belief during the
preceding centuries of their history. For example, such common expressions as “was gathered
to his people,” along with the prohibition of necromancy, or invocation of the dead, clearly
testify to the popular Hebrew belief in continued conscious existence beyond the grave.

I have given you a number of resources, verifiable sources, to back this up.


If the
number of passages in the OT explicitly affirming this doctrine is not large, it should not,
therefore, be a matter of trivial objection. The fact of life after death is taken for granted. Its
recognition pervades the general drift or spirit of these ancient Scriptures. Thus man is
represented as created in the image of God and therefore a creature whose chief existence is
spiritual, not to be obliterated by the death of the body.

His highest good is constantly set
before us, as found in the divine favor and fellowship. All temporal good is insignificant in
comparison with this. “The prosperity of the wicked” is not to be envied, because of the
“end” that is realized in “the sanctuary.” In the same place of clear and holy light is seen the
contrasted condition and prospect of the righteous. “I am continually with Thee; Thou hast
taken hold of my right hand.

With Thy counsel Thou wilt guide me, and afterward receive me
to glory” (Ps. 73). Thus the whole drift or tendency is to turn the thoughts of the people from
the present toward the future. And besides, there are several places in the OT where the
doctrine of a future life is plainly asserted. The sixteenth psalm, especially as connected with
the apostolic comments (Acts 2:27; 13:35), is a case in point (see also Ps. 17:15; Isa. 26:19;
Dan. 12:2–3).


The New Testament. In 2 Tim. 1:10 Paul speaks of Christ, “who abolished death, and
brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” Literally the phrase “brought … to
light” means “has illuminated,” or “shed light upon.”

It is certainly not implied here that the
doctrine of immortality was unknown to the world before Christ came, for some sort of belief
in that doctrine had been common, if not universal, among the Gentile nations as well as
among the Jews.

It means that “the gospel pours light upon and discloses the author, origin,
and true nature of life and immortality to our view” (see Whedon, Com., on above passage).


It should be added that not only among the Jews had some (particularly the Sadducees) cast
away the belief and hope of a future life, but also false philosophy and prevailing corruption
had weakened or destroyed the faith of many among the Gentiles. The mission of Christ,
therefore, was not only to “shed light upon immortality” by means of definite and
authoritative instruction but also by His life and death and resurrection to make it possible for
men to attain to an immortality that should be blessed.

Accordingly, we find explicit
utterances from Christ in large number with respect to this subject. He argued with the
Sadducees against their unbelief. And His argument is significant as showing not only His
own affirmation of a future deathless life but also His affirmation of that doctrine as taught in
the OT (see Luke 20:27–38).

He taught the doctrine plainly, illustrating it with parables; it
ran as a solemn undertone through all His teachings (see Matt. 5:12; 8:11–12; 12:32; 13:36,
43; 18:8–9; 22:11–13; 25:1–13, 31–46; Mark 8:35–37; Luke 12:4–5; 13:24–29; 16:19–31;
18:29–30; John 3:16; 5:39–40; 6:47–58; 10:28; 11:25; 14:1–6; etc.). It should be noted that,
in the passages referred to, Christ speaks of the future, not only of the righteous but also of
the wicked; also, that He speaks of a blessed immortality as attainable only through Himself.

The teachings of the apostles, as found in other parts of the NT, are as we might expect,
equally explicit with those of Christ. It is unnecessary to cite illustrations. As it has well been
said, “the obligation which even in this respect the world owes to the Gospel of the Cross is
one which cannot be overrated” (Van Oosterzee).


Theological. By immortality theologians frequently mean the survival of the spiritual part
of man after physical death. However, it must be clearly kept in mind that immortality is not
mere existence after death. Death does not end human life, whether in the case of the saved or
unsaved.

In fact, the tenet of the immortality of the soul alone is unknown in Scripture. The
Bible does not look at this disembodied existence as life or completed happiness. The biblical
concept of immortality is a deathlessness of the whole person, the body particularly as united
to the soul and spirit. Therefore, it may be said that immortality refers to the body, the
material part of man, but as this affects the whole man including soul and spirit.

Immortality,
then, is not simply a future conscious condition, however prolonged, but a state of
deliverance, of bliss, due to redemption and the possession of a glorified body united to the
soul and the spirit. It therefore includes resurrection and a perfected life in body, soul, and
spirit.

Immortality and Eternal Life. Immortality is not identical with the gift of eternal life,
which all believers in Christ possess. Believers who possess eternal life, as well as
unbelievers, suffer death. The only possibility of a believer’s not dying is the coming of the
Lord and the instantaneous glorification of his human body (1 Cor. 15:51–53; 1 Thess. 4:13–
17). The possession of eternal life guarantees a future immortal body either by translation or
resurrection, but the body of the saved person is only potentially immortal (Rom. 8:22–23; 2
Cor. 5:1–5). All who have eternal life are thus guaranteed the future immortality of the body,
that is, they are promised either resurrection unto life or translation unto glory. In either case
the result is the same—namely, a glorified body that is immortal, deathless, painless, and
sinless, united to the redeemed soul and spirit. This fully redeemed personality is what the
Bible means by immortality. Unsaved people who do not possess eternal life possess a mortal
body that will never be immortal. Their soul and spirit will go on existing forever but their
body, raised for judgment, will suffer “the second death” at the sinner’s judgment of the
white throne (Rev. 20:14). This is not annihilation. This is eternal conscious existence in
separation from God, and thus torment and what is called “fire which burns with brimstone.”

Com. Commentary
Apparently the term “second death” implies the dissolution or corruption of the resurrected
body of the unsaved whose personality does not possess immortality. Only those who believe
on Christ, “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no
man has seen or can see” (1 Tim. 6:16), obtain that same immortality that Christ, as the
Firstfruit, secured by His death and resurrection. Immortality, then, is brought “to light
through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10).


The heathen concept of the immortality of the soul is not
biblical. Immortality belongs to the realm of the body as it affects the whole redeemed man.
Immortality and the Believer’s Hope. No believer yet has an immortal body. Christ alone,
who did not see corruption (Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:31), possesses such a body as the glorified Son
of Man in heaven. He put on immortality over a mortal body, that is, His body that died on
the cross. By His redemptive work on the cross and His resurrection He “brought life and
immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10). The cross of Christ guaranteed the
glorification of the human body of the believer, whether by translation or resurrection. No
unbeliever has this hope. Although the Christian’s body may suffer dissolution, as the body
of the unsaved person’s does, yet only the believer in Christ can look forward to an immortal
body joined to a deathless soul and spirit.

Thus Christ’s redemption extends to the entire
personality. It is not a shadowy, disembodied existence in Sheol or Hades. It is a full
deliverance. Thus it may be said that immortality cannot be correctly used of the soul. It must
be posited of the incorruption or incorruptibility of the body as it affects the whole man. The
destiny of the believer is to be transformed “into conformity with the body of His glory”
(Phil. 3:21). This body will be suitable for our “citizenship” in heaven (3:20). All Christians
will see the dissolution of the human body, except those who will be living at the end of the
age when Christ returns. They will be translated without seeing death. This is what the
apostle means in 2 Cor. 5:4: “while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we
do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed
up by life.” All other Christians will see corruption, or death (that is, the separation of the
body from the soul and spirit).

They, however, will receive immortality or be clothed with
immortality by resurrection. Resurrection may be defined as the reunion of the soul and spirit
with the body in the glorified form; deathless, sinless, painless, fatigueless.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: J. Orr, The Christian View of God and the World (1947); L. S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (1948), 2:152–53, 155; C. Hodge, Systematic Theology (1950), 3:716ff.;
L. Boettner, Immortality (1956); R. Martin-Achard, From Death to Life (1960); G. C.
Berkouwer, Man: The Image of God (1962), pp. 234–78; D. Winter, Hereafter (1973); R. A.
Morey, Death and the Afterlife (1984); H. D. F. Salmond, The Biblical Doctrine of
Immortality (1984).
Unger.

Johann.

Here's the problem, you bolded this part.

"That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute."

With the exception of the Sadducees. That means according to this that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul. You have problem with this. The apostle Paul was a Pharisee. He said.

"1 Corinthians 15:16–18 (KJV 1900): For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Paul was speaking here of Christian who had died. He says if there is no resurrection they have perished. Not, they will perish. They have already perished. So, tell me how did Paul believe in an immortal soul when he says apart from the resurrection these Christians had perished?

My friend, you'd do well to forget the Rabbis and stick to the Scriptures

 

[Johann]

Here's the problem, you bolded this part.

"That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute."

With the exception of the Sadducees. That means according to this that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul. You have problem with this. The apostle Paul was a Pharisee. He said.

"1 Corinthians 15:16–18 (KJV 1900): For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Paul was speaking here of Christian who had died. He says if there is no resurrection they have perished. Not, they will perish. They have already perished. So, tell me how did Paul believe in an immortal soul when he says apart from the resurrection these Christians had perished?

My friend, you'd do well to forget the Rabbis and stick to the Scriptures

Just to put it in context for you....

The Resurrection of the Dead
1Co 15:12 But now if Christ (the Messiah) is preached as raised from the dead, how is it that some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not risen;
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not risen, then our preaching is in vain [it amounts to nothing] and your faith is devoid of truth and is fruitless (without effect, empty, imaginary, and unfounded).
1Co 15:15 We are even discovered to be misrepresenting God, for we testified of Him that He raised Christ, Whom He did not raise in case it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised;
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is mere delusion [futile, fruitless], and you are still in your sins [under the control and penalty of sin];
1Co 15:18 And further, those who have died in [spiritual fellowship and union with] Christ have perished (are lost)!
1Co 15:19 If we who are [abiding] in Christ have hope only in this life and that is all, then we are of all people most miserable and to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But the fact is that Christ (the Messiah) has been raised from the dead, and He became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
1Co 15:21 For since [it was] through a man that death [came into the world, it is] also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead [has come].
1Co 15:22 For just as [because of their union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
1Co 15:24 After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For [Christ] must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet. [Psa_110:1]
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For He [the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Christ's] feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection [under Him], it is evident that He [Himself] is excepted Who does the subjecting of all things to Him. [Psa_8:6]
1Co 15:28 However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].
AMPC

 

[Johann]

Here's the problem, you bolded this part.

"That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute."

With the exception of the Sadducees. That means according to this that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul. You have problem with this. The apostle Paul was a Pharisee. He said.

"1 Corinthians 15:16–18 (KJV 1900): For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Paul was speaking here of Christian who had died. He says if there is no resurrection they have perished. Not, they will perish. They have already perished. So, tell me how did Paul believe in an immortal soul when he says apart from the resurrection these Christians had perished?

My friend, you'd do well to forget the Rabbis and stick to the Scriptures

I asked you three questions Butch, let's be careful not to dump this thread.

I believe the nephesh is immortal

That the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable

That there is no cessation of the nefesh......


you said you believed like me, what changed your nous?

 

[Johann]

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

“Then also those that were laid to sleep in Christ perished!”—perished (ptp[2329] and vb[2330] both aor[2331]) when we laid them to rest, and with the “perishing” which befalls those “yet in their sins” (cf. 1Co_1:18, 1Co_8:11, Rom_2:12; Rom_6:23, etc.; also Joh_8:21; Joh_8:24). They were “put to sleep in Christ” (cf. 1Th_4:14), as the sense of His presence and the promises of His gospel turned their death into sleep (Joh_11:2, etc.). The ματαιότης of being lulled to sleep when falling into utter ruin! They thought “the sting of death” drawn (1Co_15:56), and lay down to rest untroubled: cruelly deceived! For the unclassical position of ἄρα, see Wr[2332], p. 699.

does this verse teach destruction/annihilation?

 

[Johann]

Just to put it in context for you....

The Resurrection of the Dead
1Co 15:12 But now if Christ (the Messiah) is preached as raised from the dead, how is it that some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not risen;
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not risen, then our preaching is in vain [it amounts to nothing] and your faith is devoid of truth and is fruitless (without effect, empty, imaginary, and unfounded).
1Co 15:15 We are even discovered to be misrepresenting God, for we testified of Him that He raised Christ, Whom He did not raise in case it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised;
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is mere delusion [futile, fruitless], and you are still in your sins [under the control and penalty of sin];
1Co 15:18 And further, those who have died in [spiritual fellowship and union with] Christ have perished (are lost)!
1Co 15:19 If we who are [abiding] in Christ have hope only in this life and that is all, then we are of all people most miserable and to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But the fact is that Christ (the Messiah) has been raised from the dead, and He became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
1Co 15:21 For since [it was] through a man that death [came into the world, it is] also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead [has come].
1Co 15:22 For just as [because of their union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
1Co 15:24 After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For [Christ] must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet. [Psa_110:1]
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For He [the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Christ's] feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection [under Him], it is evident that He [Himself] is excepted Who does the subjecting of all things to Him. [Psa_8:6]
1Co 15:28 However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].
AMPC

Then they who are fallen asleep. Having it in view to prove, that if the resurrection of Christ is taken away, faith is useless, and Christianity (41) is a mere deception, he had said that the living remain in their sins; but as there is a clearer illustration of this matter to be seen in the dead, he adduces them as an example. “Of what advantage were it to the dead that they once were Christians? Hence our brethren who are now dead, did to no purpose live in the faith of Christ.” But if it is granted that the essence of the soul is immortal, this argument appears, at first sight, conclusive; for it will very readily be replied, that the dead have not perished, inasmuch as their souls live in a state of separation from their bodies. Hence some fanatics conclude that there is no life in the period intermediate between death and the resurrection; but this frenzy is easily refuted. (42) For although the souls of the dead are now living, and enjoy quiet repose, yet the whole of their felicity and consolation depends exclusively on the resurrection; because it is well with them on this account, and no other, that they wait for that day, on which they shall be called to the possession of the kingdom of God. Hence as to the hope of the dead, all is over, unless that day shall sooner or later arrive.
This is a quote from Calvin

Bunyan holds to the same, the immortality of the nephesh.

Again, you said you used to believe like me, what changed your mind?

Where do believers go when they die? Somewhere in a state of "limbo?"

 

[Johann]

Here's the problem, you bolded this part.

"That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute."

With the exception of the Sadducees. That means according to this that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul. You have problem with this. The apostle Paul was a Pharisee. He said.

"1 Corinthians 15:16–18 (KJV 1900): For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Paul was speaking here of Christian who had died. He says if there is no resurrection they have perished. Not, they will perish. They have already perished. So, tell me how did Paul believe in an immortal soul when he says apart from the resurrection these Christians had perished?

My friend, you'd do well to forget the Rabbis and stick to the Scriptures

Interesting, this was not a rabbinical excerpt Butch.

 

[Johann]

@Butch5

Is the human soul mortal or immortal?
412teens
human soul mortal immortal
audio
ANSWER

The human soul is that part of a man or woman that is not physical. The soul is central to the personhood of a human being. It is the “true self”—who a person really is. The soul is the center of life, feeling, thought, and action in a human being.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. That is, the soul is not subject to death. The soul never ceases to exist but is everlasting. The soul is spiritual and thus has the quality of immortality. In contrast, the body is physical; the earthly body we now possess is subject to death.

The immortality of the soul is clearly seen in many places in Scripture. For example, in Psalm 23:6 David says, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” In Ecclesiastes 12:7 the Preacher mentions two things that happen at death: “The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” In 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Paul says that believers who have died will be with Christ at the rapture of the church: “We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.” All these passages indicate that the soul is immortal.

In Revelation 6:9, John sees “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.” So, the souls of Christian martyrs are in heaven. As 2 Corinthians 5:8 teaches, to be “absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord” (NKJV).

In Luke 23:43, Jesus promises one of the thieves who is dying beside Him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Obviously, Jesus believed the soul of the repentant thief was going to survive physical death.

Daniel 12:2–3 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.” This passage promises a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. When we die, our bodies return to “dust” (cf. Genesis 3:19). From that dust the body will return to either “everlasting life” or “everlasting contempt.” We must assume the soul will be reunited with the body at that time—otherwise, the bodies would be soulless and therefore inhuman.

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” The same Greek word, translated “eternal,” is used to describe both “punishment” and “life.” Jesus clearly taught that both the wicked and the righteous will exist forever in one of two conditions. Thus, every human being has an immortal, everlasting soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether saved or lost, will exist eternally. The spiritual part of us does not cease to exist when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven or in punishment in hell. The Bible also teaches that our souls will be reunited with our bodies at the resurrection. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12–19).

All souls are immortal, but they are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other creatures, animal, human, or angelic, had a beginning. Our souls came into being at a certain point in history, and they live forever after that. But there was a time when our souls did not exist. Our souls are immortal, and we will live everlastingly. But only our Creator is eternal.

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? | GotQuestions.org

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? Does every human being have an eternal soul? Or, do we receive eternal souls when God saves us?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes? What changed your mind brother?

 

[Johann]

"you don't know what you don't know". Until you learn what you don't know you'll continue in the same old patterns. When you learn what you don't know you see things from a different perspective.

Aristotle or Donald Rumsfeld, which one?

 

[Johann]

Here's the problem, you bolded this part.

"That the Jews, with the exception of the
Sadducees, universally believed in man’s immortal nature when Christ came is beyond
dispute."

With the exception of the Sadducees. That means according to this that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul. You have problem with this. The apostle Paul was a Pharisee. He said.

"1 Corinthians 15:16–18 (KJV 1900): For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Paul was speaking here of Christian who had died. He says if there is no resurrection they have perished. Not, they will perish. They have already perished. So, tell me how did Paul believe in an immortal soul when he says apart from the resurrection these Christians had perished?

My friend, you'd do well to forget the Rabbis and stick to the Scriptures

This powerful preaching from Justin settles it and debunks all opposing viewpoints.

I have said it on numerous occasions that this is not a parable, since in a parable there are no names.

You want to discredit this "parable" and soften the tone on what Christ Jesus is really saying on the subject of Hell brother.

We all make mistakes, no question about it, but what you are doing is handling the scriptures deceitfully, you need to repent, amend your ways, and walk this this narrow derech, and few are upon it.

No offense.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Butch5]

This powerful preaching from Justin settles it and debunks all opposing viewpoints.

I have said it on numerous occasions that this is not a parable, since in a parable there are no names.

You want to discredit this "parable" and soften the tone on what Christ Jesus is really saying on the subject of Hell brother.

We all make mistakes, no question about it, but what you are doing is handling the scriptures deceitfully, you need to repent, amend your ways, and walk this this narrow derech, and few are upon it.

No offense.

Shalom
Johann

Debunks all opposing viewpoints? Why is that, because he agrees with what you said? If I'm handling the word deceitfully, then why not point it out to everyone? Why do you have to post someone's commentary each time? Why can't you make your own argument? In the other thread I posted the details of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, you didn't even engage the post. Simply claiming I'm wrong doesn't prove I'm wrong. Posting someone else's opinion of the parable, doesn't prove I'm wrong. As I said in another post, your presuppositions cause you to interpret the Scriptures the way you do. that's the case with all of us. That is why it is of the utmost importance that we test our presuppositions against Scripture to see if they are in fact true or if we're bringing erroneous ideas to the text.

So, instead of making accusations, why not engage in an honest discussion of the parable?

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Is the human soul mortal or immortal?
412teens
human soul mortal immortal
audio
ANSWER

The human soul is that part of a man or woman that is not physical. The soul is central to the personhood of a human being. It is the “true self”—who a person really is. The soul is the center of life, feeling, thought, and action in a human being.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. That is, the soul is not subject to death. The soul never ceases to exist but is everlasting. The soul is spiritual and thus has the quality of immortality. In contrast, the body is physical; the earthly body we now possess is subject to death.

The immortality of the soul is clearly seen in many places in Scripture. For example, in Psalm 23:6 David says, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” In Ecclesiastes 12:7 the Preacher mentions two things that happen at death: “The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” In 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Paul says that believers who have died will be with Christ at the rapture of the church: “We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.” All these passages indicate that the soul is immortal.

In Revelation 6:9, John sees “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.” So, the souls of Christian martyrs are in heaven. As 2 Corinthians 5:8 teaches, to be “absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord” (NKJV).

In Luke 23:43, Jesus promises one of the thieves who is dying beside Him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Obviously, Jesus believed the soul of the repentant thief was going to survive physical death.

Daniel 12:2–3 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.” This passage promises a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. When we die, our bodies return to “dust” (cf. Genesis 3:19). From that dust the body will return to either “everlasting life” or “everlasting contempt.” We must assume the soul will be reunited with the body at that time—otherwise, the bodies would be soulless and therefore inhuman.

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” The same Greek word, translated “eternal,” is used to describe both “punishment” and “life.” Jesus clearly taught that both the wicked and the righteous will exist forever in one of two conditions. Thus, every human being has an immortal, everlasting soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether saved or lost, will exist eternally. The spiritual part of us does not cease to exist when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven or in punishment in hell. The Bible also teaches that our souls will be reunited with our bodies at the resurrection. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12–19).

All souls are immortal, but they are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other creatures, animal, human, or angelic, had a beginning. Our souls came into being at a certain point in history, and they live forever after that. But there was a time when our souls did not exist. Our souls are immortal, and we will live everlastingly. But only our Creator is eternal.

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? | GotQuestions.org

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? Does every human being have an eternal soul? Or, do we receive eternal souls when God saves us?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes? What changed your mind brother?

Really? "Got Questions". I think this is probably the worst website on Christian doctrine on the internets. I usually don't get through the first paragraph without finding at least one logical fallacy. This one was no different.

 

[Butch5]

Interesting, this was not a rabbinical excerpt Butch.

Rabbinical or not, the question remains. How did Paul believe in an immortal soul when he said, if there is no resurrection those Corinthians had already perished?

 

[Butch5]

“Then also those that were laid to sleep in Christ perished!”—perished (ptp[2329] and vb[2330] both aor[2331]) when we laid them to rest, and with the “perishing” which befalls those “yet in their sins” (cf. 1Co_1:18, 1Co_8:11, Rom_2:12; Rom_6:23, etc.; also Joh_8:21; Joh_8:24). They were “put to sleep in Christ” (cf. 1Th_4:14), as the sense of His presence and the promises of His gospel turned their death into sleep (Joh_11:2, etc.). The ματαιότης of being lulled to sleep when falling into utter ruin! They thought “the sting of death” drawn (1Co_15:56), and lay down to rest untroubled: cruelly deceived! For the unclassical position of ἄρα, see Wr[2332], p. 699.

does this verse teach destruction/annihilation?

That wasn't the question. The question was, how does Paul believe in an immortal soul when he said if there is no resurrection those Corinthians had already perished.

 

[Butch5]

I asked you three questions Butch, let's be careful not to dump this thread.

I believe the nephesh is immortal

That the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable

That there is no cessation of the nefesh......


you said you believed like me, what changed your nous?

The Scriptures and an understanding of presuppositions. When I started to look at subjects in the Scriptures having set aside my presuppositions that's when things began to change. Take for instance the passage in Genesis where God said, 'let us make man in our image'. Most Christians say this means man is, body, soul, and spirit. Really? Where does the passage say any such thing? It doesn't. People already suppose that man is, body, soul, and spirit. They bring that belief (presupposition) to the passage. There is nothing in the passage that would suggest that. God doesn't have a body. At least not as we understand man to have a body. This was before the incarnation so, Jesus' body can' t be used. People come to the passage with the preconception that God is a Trinity. Having that preconception, they then interpret the passage as man being a trinity, that's where they come up with, body, soul, and spirit. But if that preconception is wrong then those people are out in left field. When I see the passage, I understand that it doesn't define what being made in God's image means. I have some ideas, but they are just that, ideas. I don't use them to form doctrine.

This is also where they use logical fallacies to argue for the Trinity. People say the passage proves the Trinity because it says, 'let us make man in our image'. They say, 'see, it says make man in our image', proves the Trinity. This is perfect example of people bringing their preconceptions to the text and then using them to make a fallacious argument. "Let us make man in our image". Where in that passage does it say anything about three? Us could mean two, four, one hundred, one thousand, etc. Us could include any number of individuals. The best they can claim from that passage is that God is multiple persons. The reason they say it's three is their preconceptions. They already believe it's three before they ever come to the passage. Thus, this is circular reasoning. They are just restating their premise in their conclusion.

You see, when I began to study these things like, logical fallacies and critical thinking, I began to see a lot of the erroneous thinking I had. I changed that. In addition, I also studied the early faith. Looking at what the earliest Christians believed and comparing that to Scripture. That was a real eye opener. I, and I suppose most Christians, had simply assumed that what I was taught was always the Christian faith. Man was that wrong. What we have today is vastly different from what was originally taught. Once I came to that realization the obvious question became, how did we go from that to this? That is where church history comes into play. Seeing how different people have influenced the faith through the years was also eye opening. Some of it has been for the good. A lot of it has been not so good. Some people or groups introduced radical changes. The faith was complete when the apostles left the scene, there was no need to change anything.

 

[Butch5]

Just to put it in context for you....

The Resurrection of the Dead
1Co 15:12 But now if Christ (the Messiah) is preached as raised from the dead, how is it that some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not risen;
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not risen, then our preaching is in vain [it amounts to nothing] and your faith is devoid of truth and is fruitless (without effect, empty, imaginary, and unfounded).
1Co 15:15 We are even discovered to be misrepresenting God, for we testified of Him that He raised Christ, Whom He did not raise in case it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised;
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is mere delusion [futile, fruitless], and you are still in your sins [under the control and penalty of sin];
1Co 15:18 And further, those who have died in [spiritual fellowship and union with] Christ have perished (are lost)!
1Co 15:19 If we who are [abiding] in Christ have hope only in this life and that is all, then we are of all people most miserable and to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But the fact is that Christ (the Messiah) has been raised from the dead, and He became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
1Co 15:21 For since [it was] through a man that death [came into the world, it is] also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead [has come].
1Co 15:22 For just as [because of their union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
1Co 15:24 After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For [Christ] must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet. [Psa_110:1]
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For He [the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Christ's] feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection [under Him], it is evident that He [Himself] is excepted Who does the subjecting of all things to Him. [Psa_8:6]
1Co 15:28 However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].
AMPC

I'm aware of the context. But that doesn't answer the question.