The Trinity : revisted

[Charlie24]

At the same time there is no definitive Scripture that says He (God) is specifically three person, either.

And I might add that the Oneness theory doesn't fit into the nature of God as we see in Scripture.

You're going to need much, much more to prove one person in the Godhead.

But you can't prove that! It's just someone's theory.

 

[First and the Last]

There's no way to prove that either way, just making you aware of the plurality.

I agree that it is plural we cannot deny that. But I see the plural as a reflection of God's majesty, greatness, and the fullness of His divine nature. Emphasize that "Elohim" is used in the Hebrew language to denote the intensity and power of the one true God. From this perspective, the plural form is understood as a way to express the supreme and all-encompassing nature of God, rather than suggesting a plurality of persons. I believe in the absolute oneness of God, manifested in Jesus Christ, and interpret "Elohim" as consistent with the biblical teaching that God is singular and indivisible, yet fully revealed in various ways throughout Scripture. I only try to ever quote Scripture and let the believer make the choice to believe. Everything from God especially Salvation is a gift from God accepted only through faith in Jesus Christ. I only seek the truth it is up to the reader to accept or deny.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree that it is plural we cannot deny that. But I see the plural as a reflection of God's majesty, greatness, and the fullness of His divine nature. Emphasize that "Elohim" is used in the Hebrew language to denote the intensity and power of the one true God. From this perspective, the plural form is understood as a way to express the supreme and all-encompassing nature of God, rather than suggesting a plurality of persons. I believe in the absolute oneness of God, manifested in Jesus Christ, and interpret "Elohim" as consistent with the biblical teaching that God is singular and indivisible, yet fully revealed in various ways throughout Scripture. I only try to ever quote Scripture and let the believer make the choice to believe. Everything from God especially Salvation is a gift from God accepted only through faith in Jesus Christ. I only seek the truth it is up to the reader to accept or deny.

That may be the way the Oneness theory see's it, but the majority see's the word "God" as a noun, not a pronoun.

The whole thing smells to high heaven and I believe God is very displeased with it! And I'm speaking of God in 3 distinct persons!

 

[First and the Last]

That is what we have been discussing for sometime now at TJ, maybe even before you got into the conversation.

No one can explain how 3 distinct persons can be one God. There is no attempt in Scripture to explain it, so we assume it's beyond mortal understanding.

The Scripture is clear in a relationship among the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit acting independently of one another. Of course I know you have a problem with that.

On the other hand, the Oneness folks think they have figured it out by denying the distinct person of the Father and Holy Spirit.

The problem is that for almost 20 centuries now that theory has and is considered heresy by the majority.

Today, those who believe in both the indivisible oneness of God and the full deity of Jesus Christ frequently use the term “Oneness” to describe their belief. They also use the terms “One God” and “Jesus Name” as adjectives to label themselves, while opponents sometimes use the misleading or derogatory designations “Jesus Only” and “New Issue.” (The label “Jesus Only” is misleading because to trinitarians it implies a denial of the Father and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness believers do not deny the Father and Spirit, but rather see Father and Spirit as different roles of the one God who is the Spirit of Jesus.)

I appreciate the ongoing dialogue and the dedication to understanding the nature of God. These discussions are vital for deepening our faith and comprehension of Scripture. It's encouraging to see such commitment to exploring these profound theological truths together.

I understand that my position differs from the traditional Trinitarian view that has been held by the majority of the Christian church for centuries. However, my belief is rooted in a sincere interpretation of Scripture and a desire to honor God's revelation as I understand it. I strive to engage in these discussions with respect and humility, seeking common ground in our shared faith in Jesus Christ and our commitment to following His teachings.

 

[First and the Last]

And I might add that the Oneness theory doesn't fit into the nature of God as we see in Scripture.

You're going to need much, much more to prove one person in the Godhead.

But you can't prove that! It's just someone's theory.

I appreciate your honesty and the clarity with which you express your concerns. The nature of God is indeed a profound mystery, and interpreting Scripture to understand it fully is a challenging task. The Bible emphasizes the absolute oneness of God, particularly in passages like Deuteronomy 6:4 ("Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one") and Isaiah 43:10-11, which speaks of God declaring there is no other savior beside Him.

The manifestations of God are different expressions of the one true God. Jesus Christ is the fullness of God revealed in bodily form (Colossians 2:9). This understanding comes from a desire to remain true to the scriptural emphasis on God's singular nature while recognizing His multifaceted interactions with humanity.

While acknowledge that this perspective is different from the traditional Trinitarian view held by many Christians, the aim is to foster respectful dialogue and mutual understanding. Ultimately, our shared goal is to deepen our relationship with God and to live according to His Word. We may not always see eye to eye on theological nuances, but we can agree on the importance of seeking truth in Scripture and following Jesus Christ wholeheartedly.

 

[Charlie24]

Today, those who believe in both the indivisible oneness of God and the full deity of Jesus Christ frequently use the term “Oneness” to describe their belief. They also use the terms “One God” and “Jesus Name” as adjectives to label themselves, while opponents sometimes use the misleading or derogatory designations “Jesus Only” and “New Issue.” (The label “Jesus Only” is misleading because to trinitarians it implies a denial of the Father and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness believers do not deny the Father and Spirit, but rather see Father and Spirit as different roles of the one God who is the Spirit of Jesus.)

I appreciate the ongoing dialogue and the dedication to understanding the nature of God. These discussions are vital for deepening our faith and comprehension of Scripture. It's encouraging to see such commitment to exploring these profound theological truths together.

I understand that my position differs from the traditional Trinitarian view that has been held by the majority of the Christian church for centuries. However, my belief is rooted in a sincere interpretation of Scripture and a desire to honor God's revelation as I understand it. I strive to engage in these discussions with respect and humility, seeking common ground in our shared faith in Jesus Christ and our commitment to following His teachings.

I believe you're being sincere, but at the same time I remind you that you're denying the distinct person of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If you're wrong and I believe you are, how does God feel about that? It's a presumption that shouldn't be made.

 

[First and the Last]

That may be the way the Oneness theory see's it, but the majority see's the word "God" as a noun, not a pronoun.

The whole thing smells to high heaven and I believe God is very displeased with it! And I'm speaking of God in 3 distinct persons!

I acknowledge that this theological interpretation is different from the traditional understanding. The goal in these discussions is not to cause division but to seek a deeper understanding of God's nature as revealed in Scripture. It's important for us all to approach these conversations with respect, humility, and a shared desire to honor God and His Word.

Ultimately, our common ground is our faith in Jesus Christ and our commitment to following His teachings. While we may have different interpretations of God's nature, we can strive to love one another and work together to grow in our relationship with Him.

 

[Charlie24]

I acknowledge that this theological interpretation is different from the traditional understanding. The goal in these discussions is not to cause division but to seek a deeper understanding of God's nature as revealed in Scripture. It's important for us all to approach these conversations with respect, humility, and a shared desire to honor God and His Word.

Ultimately, our common ground is our faith in Jesus Christ and our commitment to following His teachings. While we may have different interpretations of God's nature, we can strive to love one another and work together to grow in our relationship with Him.

I agree, but didn't Jude say to earnestly contend for the faith which was once presented to the saints?

 

[First and the Last]

I believe you're being sincere, but at the same time I remind you that you're denying the distinct person of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If you're wrong and I believe you are, how does God feel about that? It's a presumption that shouldn't be made.

Your concern about the potential consequences of holding a mistaken view about God's nature is valid and important. It's essential for all of us to seek truth earnestly and to be open to correction from Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our ultimate goal is to know God more deeply and to align our beliefs with His revealed truth.

In our discussions, let's continue to seek understanding and unity, focusing on our shared commitment to follow Jesus Christ and live according to His teachings. While we may have different interpretations, our love for God and our desire to honor Him can guide us toward respectful and fruitful dialogue.

 

[First and the Last]

I agree, but didn't Jude say to earnestly contend for the faith which was once presented to the saints?

Yes, Jude did indeed exhort believers to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3). This call to contend for the faith emphasizes the importance of holding firmly to the foundational truths of Christianity as revealed in Scripture and passed down through the apostles.

We should approach this task with both conviction and humility. Contending for the faith means diligently seeking truth, engaging with Scripture, and being willing to defend the core tenets of our beliefs. It also involves recognizing that the nature of the Godhead has been a significant topic of discussion and debate since the early days of the church.

As we seek to understand and uphold these truths, let's do so in a spirit of love and unity, supporting each other in our shared journey of faith. By earnestly contending for the faith with grace and respect, we honor God and strengthen our witness to the world.

 

[Charlie24]

Your concern about the potential consequences of holding a mistaken view about God's nature is valid and important. It's essential for all of us to seek truth earnestly and to be open to correction from Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our ultimate goal is to know God more deeply and to align our beliefs with His revealed truth.

In our discussions, let's continue to seek understanding and unity, focusing on our shared commitment to follow Jesus Christ and live according to His teachings. While we may have different interpretations, our love for God and our desire to honor Him can guide us toward respectful and fruitful dialogue.

My only purpose for being in this conversation with you at this time is to show the simple people who are confused that this Oneness theology is not built on a rock. it is merely a theory of what some few believe.

 

[First and the Last]

For anyone trying to understand the Trinity how do you put 3 persons of God with these Scriptures.

• Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
• Deuteronomy 4:35 - "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
• Deuteronomy 32:39 - "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me."
• 2 Samuel 7:22 - "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee."
• 2 Kings 19:15 - "And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone."
• 1 Chronicles 17:20 - "O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee."
• Nehemiah 9:6 - "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone."
• Psalm 86:10 - "For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone."
• Isaiah 37:16 - "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone."
• Isaiah 43:10 - "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
• Isaiah 44:6 - "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
• Isaiah 44:8 - "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
• Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me."
• Isaiah 45:6 - "There is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else."
• Isaiah 45:21 - "And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
• Isaiah 45:22 - "For I am God, and there is none else."
• Isaiah 46:9 - "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
• Hosea 13:4 - "For there is no saviour beside me."
• Mark 12:29 - "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
• Mark 12:32 - "There is one God; and there is none other but he."
• John 17:3 - "That they might know thee the only true God."
• Romans 3:30 - "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
• 1 Corinthians 8:4 - "There is none other God but one."
• 1 Corinthians 8:6 - "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things."
• Galatians 3:20 - "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
• Ephesians 4:6 - "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
• 1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
• James 2:19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

 

[First and the Last]

My only purpose for being in this conversation with you at this time is to show the simple people who are confused that this Oneness theology is not built on a rock. it is merely a theory of what some few believe.

Both Oneness theology and Trinitarianism have been subjects of theological debate and discussion throughout Christian history. Each perspective has its proponents who argue for its coherence and fidelity to Scripture. However, it's important to recognize that theological perspectives, including both Oneness theology and Trinitarianism, are interpretations and frameworks that attempt to understand the mysteries of God and His revelation to humanity. They represent different attempts to articulate the nature of God based on biblical texts and theological reasoning.

Ultimately, whether one considers Oneness theology or Trinitarianism to be theologically sound depends on one's interpretation of Scripture and adherence to doctrinal traditions within Christianity. Both perspectives contribute to the rich tapestry of Christian theology, reflecting diverse approaches to understanding and worshiping God.

 

[First and the Last]

The doctrine of the Trinity states that each person is distinct and separate from the others, but they are also one in what they are. This means that each person has their own center of consciousness and a unique quality that differentiates them from the others. I got this straight from a trinitarian website.

Three separate consciousnesses no longer describe One God.

 

[Charlie24]

For anyone trying to understand the Trinity how do you put 3 persons of God with these Scriptures.

• Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
• Deuteronomy 4:35 - "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
• Deuteronomy 32:39 - "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me."
• 2 Samuel 7:22 - "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee."
• 2 Kings 19:15 - "And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone."
• 1 Chronicles 17:20 - "O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee."
• Nehemiah 9:6 - "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone."
• Psalm 86:10 - "For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone."
• Isaiah 37:16 - "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone."
• Isaiah 43:10 - "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
• Isaiah 44:6 - "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
• Isaiah 44:8 - "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
• Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me."
• Isaiah 45:6 - "There is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else."
• Isaiah 45:21 - "And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
• Isaiah 45:22 - "For I am God, and there is none else."
• Isaiah 46:9 - "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
• Hosea 13:4 - "For there is no saviour beside me."
• Mark 12:29 - "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
• Mark 12:32 - "There is one God; and there is none other but he."
• John 17:3 - "That they might know thee the only true God."
• Romans 3:30 - "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
• 1 Corinthians 8:4 - "There is none other God but one."
• 1 Corinthians 8:6 - "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things."
• Galatians 3:20 - "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
• Ephesians 4:6 - "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
• 1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
• James 2:19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

One God in unity and nature, not one God in persons. Your oneness is not our oneness.

Again, we see the interactions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit independent of one another in Scripture.

Just because we as mortals can't explain how how 3 persons can be one God doesn't mean that Modalism is the answer.

 

[First and the Last]

Just because we as mortals can't explain how how 3 persons can be one God doesn't mean that Modalism is the answer.

The statement "Just because we as mortals can't explain how three persons can be one God doesn't mean that Modalism is the answer" reflects a commitment to interpreting Scripture faithfully and avoiding oversimplifications. In my understanding, God has revealed Himself as singular in essence yet manifesting in different modes or roles throughout history. While the concept of the Trinity—three distinct persons in one God—poses a challenge to human comprehension, Modalism, which suggests that God manifests sequentially as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, doesn't align with my interpretation of Scripture.

I affirm that Scripture portrays God interacting in various roles—Father in creation and redemption, Son in incarnation and sacrifice, Holy Spirit in empowerment and guidance—while maintaining His singular divine identity. This view allows for a nuanced understanding of God's dynamic engagement with humanity without compromising His unity. My belief emphasizes the biblical portrayal of God's oneness, His ability to manifest in diverse ways, and the importance of maintaining the biblical balance between His unity and the distinct roles He assumes for the fulfillment of His purposes.

 

[First and the Last]

One God in unity and nature, not one God in persons. Your oneness is not our oneness.

Scripture holds a deep conviction regarding the indivisible oneness of God, which is central to faith and interpretation of Scripture. Emphasizing that God is singular in His divine essence and nature, without being divided into separate persons or entities. This belief is rooted in understanding of monotheism as taught throughout the Bible, particularly in passages like Deuteronomy 6:4, which declares, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." This oneness of God is not merely a theological concept but a foundational truth that profoundly shapes every aspect of spiritual life. It influences how we worship, pray, and understand God's relationship with humanity. Bible emphasize that God reveals Himself in various ways—whether as Father in creation and redemption, as Son in the incarnation and salvation through Jesus Christ, or as Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering believers—without compromising His essential oneness. This understanding underscores a commitment to monotheism and shapes our devotion to God, emphasizing a personal and direct relationship with the singular God revealed in Scripture.

 

[First and the Last]

Again, we see the interactions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit independent of one another in Scripture.

In understanding the interactions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as depicted in Scripture, particularly concerning Jesus' humanity and His prayers, it's essential to explore how these aspects affirm the oneness of God from a Oneness Pentecostal perspective. Jesus, in His humanity, exemplifies perfect submission and reliance on God the Father. When Jesus prayed, such as in the Garden of Gethsemane, it was a profound expression of His human obedience and reliance on divine guidance (Matthew 26:39). This prayer demonstrated Jesus' complete identification with humanity, experiencing the depth of human emotions and challenges while remaining in perfect harmony with God's will. It's crucial to emphasize that Jesus, as the Son of God, never ceased being God manifested in flesh (John 1:1, 14). His prayers and interactions with the Father do not imply a division within God but rather illustrate the intimate relationship between His Divine Nature and His Human Nature. Through His prayers, Jesus showed us the perfect example of how to align our will with God's divine purpose, affirming the unity of God in both His divine essence and His incarnate presence among us. Thus, Jesus' prayers highlight His dual nature—fully God and fully human—while reinforcing the profound unity and oneness of God without compromising His essential deity.

 

[Charlie24]

The statement "Just because we as mortals can't explain how three persons can be one God doesn't mean that Modalism is the answer" reflects a commitment to interpreting Scripture faithfully and avoiding oversimplifications. In my understanding, God has revealed Himself as singular in essence yet manifesting in different modes or roles throughout history. While the concept of the Trinity—three distinct persons in one God—poses a challenge to human comprehension, Modalism, which suggests that God manifests sequentially as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, doesn't align with my interpretation of Scripture.

I affirm that Scripture portrays God interacting in various roles—Father in creation and redemption, Son in incarnation and sacrifice, Holy Spirit in empowerment and guidance—while maintaining His singular divine identity. This view allows for a nuanced understanding of God's dynamic engagement with humanity without compromising His unity. My belief emphasizes the biblical portrayal of God's oneness, His ability to manifest in diverse ways, and the importance of maintaining the biblical balance between His unity and the distinct roles He assumes for the fulfillment of His purposes.

We can't explain how 3 persons can be one God and neither can you explain how one person as God can interact as 3 at the same time.

The former sounds much more believable than the latter.

 

[First and the Last]

We can't explain how 3 persons can be one God and neither can you explain how one person as God can interact as 3 at the same time.

I don't believe in One person of God interacting as 3 at the same time. I believe in ONE God (who doesn't have a body accept Jesus Christ) interacting as 3 at the same time. God if He chose to could put the fullness of the Godhead into anyone He chooses then we would have many person of God. After all He is God without limits.