The Two Witnesses, pros and cons

[Dave M]

For those of you who find offense at priests being called a father, due to scripture, you had best think about the way it was meant. Its just a title of someone that is supposed to care about you both physically and spiritually. Protestants have titles galore as well. And if you should call no man father because scripture says so, that would mean that if any of you ever referred to your biological father as "father" then you break your own belief in scripture as you apply it to RC.

Hi Brad this is the way I think about it ,,,all in context to what the actual scripture it is talking about,,, religious leaders trying to elevate themselves above man, it has nothing to do with our parents IMO We can see the actual words of Jesus and to me it is clear he is talking about religious leaders trying to exalt themselves instead of humbling themselves, they are to be servants. Its all about the context of what he speaking about IMO so I strongly and respectfully disagree with you.

He says call no man father that is clear so what is he talking about?? the verses together explains the whole thing is about religious leaders and has nothing to do with biological parents IMO.

We both agree that Jesus says what he says a "call no man father" but we differ in interpretation, I have given you mine I would like to hear yours?

thanks

Matthew 23:9​

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

8. But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[watertolive]

For those of you who find offense at priests being called a father, due to scripture, you had best think about the way it was meant. Its just a title of someone that is supposed to care about you both physically and spiritually. Protestants have titles galore as well. And if you should call no man father because scripture says so, that would mean that if any of you ever referred to your biological father as "father" then you break your own belief in scripture as you apply it to RC.

he wasn't Father, but my daddy....
who molested me at the age of 10.
and my momma called me a liar.
God was teaching me at an early age to trust no one.
Always a loner from that point on.
Being raped, taken advantage of.
Whatever someone wanted to do to me, they did it.
why before I ever searched for HIM.

 

[Brad Huber]

Hi Brad this is the way I think about it ,,,all in context to what the actual scripture it is talking about,,, religious leaders trying to elevate themselves above man, it has nothing to do with our parents IMO We can see the actual words of Jesus and to me it is clear he is talking about religious leaders trying to exalt themselves instead of humbling themselves, they are to be servants. Its all about the context of what he speaking about IMO so I strongly and respectfully disagree with you.

He says call no man father that is clear so what is he talking about?? the verses together explains the whole thing is about religious leaders and has nothing to do with biological parents IMO.

We both agree that Jesus says what he says a "call no man father" but we differ in interpretation, I have given you mine I would like to hear yours?

thanks

​

Matthew 23:9​

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

8. But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

That is the way you think about it, the way I see it is... a father is any man who cares about you, truly cares about you, and if given the chance would raise you to be His own. God simply wants us to realize that He is the first and best father, and none better than He is at fulfilling that role. As far as elevation of ones self above others, all the titles protestants have are absolutely NO different.

 

[Brad Huber]

he wasn't Father, but my daddy....
who molested me at the age of 10.
and my momma called me a liar.
God was teaching me at an early age to trust no one.
Always a loner from that point on.
Being raped, taken advantage of.
Whatever someone wanted to do to me, they did it.
why before I ever searched for HIM.

Then he wasnt a real father to you. You may have been the product of his seed, but that doesnt make him your father. Thats why God is the BEST Father, no earthly father can compare to. Trust in Him for He cares for you, as the scripture says. Being a father is ALL about caring about and nuturting your children and guiding them the best you can in the right way. Some earthly fathers do this well, some dont. But no earthly father does it as well as God the Father. And changing the title a bit doesnt change the concept, the same is true for dad, da, papa, etc.

 

[Bill]

Lots of mans traditions go against Gods word, such as calling a priest father, and the bible warns us of this, that;s why we have the word of God to rely on, not . For evil always can and does disguise itself in the form of goodness and a angel of light.

I see a lot of people thinking they know best and do not rely on scripture for spiritual matters but rely on feelings and experiences and traditions of men,

Mark 7:8-9​

You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Colossians 2:8​

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Matthew 15:3​

He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

You are mistaken in the concept of the priest being called father, not just because of what Brad Huber had just said, but because the terminology of father is not as referring to the priest as God, but more of the concept of Shepherd.

What Jesus is referring to as far as stating let no man be called father he's referring to let no man be referred to as God the father or God. Because we don't worship anyone but God, unless you want to get really specific as far as worshiping Jesus the Holy Spirit and God the Father, or the Trinity as one.

If we call someone a shepherd or even a minister or a priest are we then saying that they are actually Jesus because Jesus is referred to as the shepherd. The whole concept is kind of silly, to think that we are calling anyone other than God God or anyone other than Jesus Jesus, because we might call somebody a minister or we call somebody a Shepherd or we call somebody a priest and we give the respective title of father or monsignor, or Padre which is all together different than referring to somebody as God or Deus

 

[Bill]

Hi Brad this is the way I think about it ,,,all in context to what the actual scripture it is talking about,,, religious leaders trying to elevate themselves above man, it has nothing to do with our parents IMO We can see the actual words of Jesus and to me it is clear he is talking about religious leaders trying to exalt themselves instead of humbling themselves, they are to be servants. Its all about the context of what he speaking about IMO so I strongly and respectfully disagree with you.

He says call no man father that is clear so what is he talking about?? the verses together explains the whole thing is about religious leaders and has nothing to do with biological parents IMO.

We both agree that Jesus says what he says a "call no man father" but we differ in interpretation, I have given you mine I would like to hear yours?

thanks

Matthew 23:9​

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

8. But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Just a thought, I would love to hear someone that has knowledge of Greek or Hebrew that would have a little clearer understanding of what the fullness of the words were when they were first written. Because I know English is such a hard language to translate into from those two. A lot of times the scripture is somewhat lost to us because of the English translation.

The example I pointed out in another thread or I spoke about the words that God said to Moses on the Mountain where he received the laws of God. God said I am who I am. And that's in the English translation but it's incorrect if you read the real writing of it the real translation ' I's am whom am '.

We do not have a singular plural noun in our vocabulary, so we don't really grasp the fullness of what is said to Moses

 

[NoHype]

I don't understand why people keep saying men's traditions and talk Jesus. Because I am certain that everybody or most people here have read the scripture.

The Traditions that men follow in the churches, are Traditions that are handed down by God.

What you said about Isaiah 40 already having been fulfilled by John the Baptist and Christ's 1st coming is from 'men's traditions'.

Those traditions of men Jesus also called 'leaven' as did Apostle Paul (Matt.16, 1 Cor.5; Matt.7). That Isaiah 40 Scripture, which contains major changes to come upon this earth when Jesus returns in our near future, is not the only Old Testament prophecy that 'men's traditions' modify, and say was already fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming.

I've already noticed some here wrongly think that the events of Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11 about the "vile person" prophecy was already fulfilled back in history by Antiochus when Jesus Himself in His Olivet discourse gave direct proof that Daniel 11:31 event is for the end of this world during the time of "great tribulation". And it's easy... to know that since He quoted about that "abomination of desolation" for the end, warning us, which was about 200 years after Antiochus had been dead. Yet 'traditions of men' in some churches today twist God's Truth from written Scripture about that event, and proclaim to their congregations that it is already past history, when it is not.

So this matter of 'men's traditions' in some churches today shouldn't be a big mystery to you Bill. It should be something that you watch out for regarding doctrine taught in Christ's Church that goes against the written Word of God.

 

[Bill]

What you said about Isaiah 40 already having been fulfilled by John the Baptist and Christ's 1st coming is from 'men's traditions'.

Those traditions of men Jesus also called 'leaven' as did Apostle Paul (Matt.16, 1 Cor.5; Matt.7). That Isaiah 40 Scripture, which contains major changes to come upon this earth when Jesus returns in our near future, is not the only Old Testament prophecy that 'men's traditions' modify, and say was already fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming.

I've already noticed some here wrongly think that the events of Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11 about the "vile person" prophecy was already fulfilled back in history by Antiochus when Jesus Himself in His Olivet discourse gave direct proof that Daniel 11:31 event is for the end of this world during the time of "great tribulation". And it's easy... to know that since He quoted about that "abomination of desolation" for the end, warning us, which was about 200 years after Antiochus had been dead. Yet 'traditions of men' in some churches today twist God's Truth from written Scripture about that event, and proclaim to their congregations that it is already past history, when it is not.

So this matter of 'men's traditions' in some churches today shouldn't be a big mystery to you Bill. It should be something that you watch out for regarding doctrine taught in Christ's Church that goes against the written Word of God.

 

[Bill]

Hi Brad this is the way I think about it ,,,all in context to what the actual scripture it is talking about,,, religious leaders trying to elevate themselves above man, it has nothing to do with our parents IMO We can see the actual words of Jesus and to me it is clear he is talking about religious leaders trying to exalt themselves instead of humbling themselves, they are to be servants. Its all about the context of what he speaking about IMO so I strongly and respectfully disagree with you.

He says call no man father that is clear so what is he talking about?? the verses together explains the whole thing is about religious leaders and has nothing to do with biological parents IMO.

We both agree that Jesus says what he says a "call no man father" but we differ in interpretation, I have given you mine I would like to hear yours?

thanks

Matthew 23:9​

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

8. But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

What are you going to do when the prophecy I gave about President Trump takes place?

Do you remember it?

I remember that you got fairly upset with me because President Trump didn't win the re-election at that time. And if you remember what I stated to you " you mean he didn't get re-elected yet "

But the re-election wasn't all of the prophecy.

Do you remember it? If you do please post it here for all to see

 

[Bill]

Something to note about giving prophecies. When I give a prophecy it isn't that it won't come true, it is that if it's a dark prophecy in reference to people who are dying or going to die. That you really don't want to talk about it or see it happen

 

[Bill]

Another note. If the Holy Spirit is in you and shares with you information for everyone else, and then because of whatever reason you refuse to accept what the Holy Spirit has told you or refused to share what the holy spirit is trying to inspire you to speak about. You'll find that the side effect of that, of refusing to accept or to share. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit tend to be revoked. LOL. Well not exactly revoked but they become extremely limited if not on hold. At least until what the Holy Spirit wants is done.

Luke1:20

This is also true for those of you who the Lord Has Told who I am and have not accepted.

 

[NoHype]

Something to note about giving prophecies. When I give a prophecy it isn't that it won't come true, it is that if it's a dark prophecy in reference to people who are dying or going to die. That you really don't want to talk about it or see it happen

There are no more prophets sent from God today. That's another false tradition of men pushed in some churches today, especially the ones that speak a gibberish tongue with trying to say it is the true cloven tongue of Pentecost when it ain't.

Everything is already written in The Word of God that is to happen in our future, and even for the time after Christ's future return. And that Word of God is what The Holy Spirit will always align with. So if someone comes claiming to be a prophet, saying things like God told me, or Jesus told me, it should not be anything new that cannot be found in The Word of God.

And for those who do not yet know, the New Testament word 'prophesy' most often means 'to preach' The Word of God by unction of The Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

 

[Bill]

There are no more prophets sent from God today. That's another false tradition of men pushed in some churches today, especially the ones that speak a gibberish tongue with trying to say it is the true cloven tongue of Pentecost when it ain't.

Everything is already written in The Word of God that is to happen in our future, and even for the time after Christ's future return. And that Word of God is what The Holy Spirit will always align with. So if someone comes claiming to be a prophet, saying things like God told me, or Jesus told me, it should not be anything new that cannot be found in The Word of God.

And for those who do not yet know, the New Testament word 'prophesy' most often means 'to preach' The Word of God by unction of The Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Hey Brother, do me a favor and set quotation marks on something that you're quoting from someone else. Because if you read your first paragraph it almost sounds like you're agreeing that there are no more prophets. Although I know that's not what you meant.

I think for myself when I think about what a prophet is. The profit is someone who brings God to the world. The profit is one who brings the word of God to the community that he's in. Many times the Holy Spirit Works through the prophet or talks through the prophet in preaching or speaking words of knowledge. There are a few other things also that God calls people to become a prophet four, it's a bit of a varied list though

 

[NoHype]

Hey Brother, do me a favor and set quotation marks on something that you're quoting from someone else. Because if you read your first paragraph it almost sounds like you're agreeing that there are no more prophets. Although I know that's not what you meant.

I think for myself when I think about what a prophet is. The profit is someone who brings God to the world. The profit is one who brings the word of God to the community that he's in. Many times the Holy Spirit Works through the prophet or talks through the prophet in preaching or speaking words of knowledge. There are a few other things also that God calls people to become a prophet four, it's a bit of a varied list though

I didn't quote you nor anyone else. You are making up stuff (in your own mind).

So understand, that when I DO... quote someone else's words, I have had enough education to know how to put quotation marks around what they said, and make sure I quote verbatim what they said.

So please, don't push fallacies like what others say are ideas that belong only to you.

 

[watertolive]

I didn't quote you nor anyone else. You are making up stuff (in your own mind).

So understand, that when I DO... quote someone else's words, I have had enough education to know how to put quotation marks around what they said, and make sure I quote verbatim what they said.

So please, don't push fallacies like what others say are ideas that belong only to you.

Here your are again, ripping and tearing at another kid of the King.
Them Pharisee's heard of Paul being in another place and went to that place to create an uproar in that city also.
Falsely accusations and slander, and beatings.

Praise God for him brother Bill.
We standing so close to the Lord, this Pharisee wants to kill us.

God first always.

 

[NoHype]

I think for myself when I think about what a prophet is. The profit is someone who brings God to the world. The profit is one who brings the word of God to the community that he's in. Many times the Holy Spirit Works through the prophet or talks through the prophet in preaching or speaking words of knowledge. There are a few other things also that God calls people to become a prophet four, it's a bit of a varied list though

I do not... think for myself regarding the definition of a prophet. (Notice I am allowed to repeat those words 'think for myself' without it being an actual QUOTE. Why is that different? It's because I was speaking of myself, and not you).

There are no modern-day prophets. So don't think I'm ignorant of what you are trying to say.

When someone is preaching by the unction of The Holy Spirit, it is with preaching The Word of God. That is because The Holy Spirit will always follow The Word of God. A prophecy in The Old Testament Books of God's prophets may not be understood until it is time for God to reveal it through His chosen teachers. This Apostle Paul did often, as he was given to speak by The Holy Spirit. And Apostle Paul was not a prophet, but an Apostle, a sent one.

And this thing in certain denominations where someone yells out in a gibberish tongue, and someone present begins to interpret what that gibberish said, that kind of idea is NOT WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD. In 1 Corinthians 14 Apostle Paul was NOT speaking about the cloven tongue of Pentecost. Paul was speaking about those with another 'known language of the world' coming into the Church and causing confusion if no one who understands that language is present to interpret.

The word in the KJV "unknown" in the phrase "unknown tongue" in 1 Corinthians 14 is NOT IN THE GREEK TEXT. It was added by the translators. The actual Greek word there is Greek glossa, which means 'a known language of the world'. Other Bible translations don't have that word "unknown" before the word "tongue", but certain Church denominations that don't use the KJV still interpret Paul was speaking of an 'unknown tongue' when he was not.
The following Scripture is proof of what I just said...

1 Cor 12:10
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
KJV

That "divers kinds of tongues" means known languages of the world, not some gibberish tongue that is claimed to be the cloven tongue of Pentecost.

Another simple Bible proof of what I am saying is the actual manifesting of the 'cloven tongue' of Pentecost per Acts 2. The multitude present did NOT HEAR GIBBERISH spoken by the Apostles. They HEARD THEIR OWN LANGUAGES IN THEIR VERY DIALECTS OF BIRTH. This more plainly shown by the Greek text of Acts 2, which even uses the Greek word 'dialektos', which is where our English word dialect comes from. God knows how we speak and hear.

 

[NoHype]

Here your are again, ripping and tearing at another kid of the King.

I have little patience with those who push falsehoods. Now that's what you are doing.

And wow! What audacity to claim I was quoting someone when I was not, making up a LIE!

And now YOU have entered into the LIE with him, which makes you a hypocrite for doing so.

And you want to 'try'... and use lies too that a poor brother in Christ is being abused by me??? That's more show of your hypocrite status.

And I'm very glad that those like you here are now revealing who you really are, that you care little for what The Word of God actually says, because several of you guys sure do avoid discussing the actual Bible Scripture as written, as if it is the plague!

 

[watertolive]

I do not... think for myself regarding the definition of a prophet. (Notice I am allowed to repeat those words 'think for myself' without it being an actual QUOTE. Why is that different? It's because I was speaking of myself, and not you).

There are no modern-day prophets. So don't think I'm ignorant of what you are trying to say.

When someone is preaching by the unction of The Holy Spirit, it is with preaching The Word of God. That is because The Holy Spirit will always follow The Word of God. A prophecy in The Old Testament Books of God's prophets may not be understood until it is time for God to reveal it through His chosen teachers. This Apostle Paul did often, as he was given to speak by The Holy Spirit. And Apostle Paul was not a prophet, but an Apostle, a sent one.

And this thing in certain denominations where someone yells out in a gibberish tongue, and someone present begins to interpret what that gibberish said, that kind of idea is NOT WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD. In 1 Corinthians 14 Apostle Paul was NOT speaking about the cloven tongue of Pentecost. Paul was speaking about those with another 'known language of the world' coming into the Church and causing confusion if no one who understands that language is present to interpret.

The word in the KJV "unknown" in the phrase "unknown tongue" in 1 Corinthians 14 is NOT IN THE GREEK TEXT. It was added by the translators. The actual Greek word there is Greek glossa, which means 'a known language of the world'. Other Bible translations don't have that word "unknown" before the word "tongue", but certain Church denominations that don't use the KJV still interpret Paul was speaking of an 'unknown tongue' when he was not.
The following Scripture is proof of what I just said...

1 Cor 12:10
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
KJV

That "divers kinds of tongues" means known languages of the world, not some gibberish tongue that is claimed to be the cloven tongue of Pentecost.

Another simple Bible proof of what I am saying is the actual manifesting of the 'cloven tongue' of Pentecost per Acts 2. The multitude present did NOT HEAR GIBBERISH spoken by the Apostles. They HEARD THEIR OWN LANGUAGES IN THEIR VERY DIALECTS OF BIRTH. This more plainly shown by the Greek text of Acts 2, which even uses the Greek word 'dialektos', which is where our English word dialect comes from. God knows how we speak and hear.

One who does not believe the written Word of God, can not believe the prophecies written in it either.

Instead they war and fight with God's children.
Never considering themselves.
Nor Father God.
Nor the Christ of God.
Who died for us too.

1 Cor 12:28

God first always

 

[watertolive]

I have little patience with those who push falsehoods. Now that's what you are doing.

And wow! What audacity to claim I was quoting someone when I was not, making up a LIE!

And now YOU have entered into the LIE with him, which makes you a hypocrite for doing so.

And you want to 'try'... and use lies too that a poor brother in Christ is being abused by me??? That's more show of your hypocrite status.

And I'm very glad that those like you here are now revealing who you really are, that you care little for what The Word of God actually says, because several of you guys sure do avoid discussing the actual Bible Scripture as written, as if it is the plague!

You point the finger at others and yet you do the some things.
You hypocrite! Sinners!
Go sin in the world some more.
God gonna get you, big boy, high minded and full of pride.

I pray mercy upon you.
But he's definitely coming, he's gonna knock you down a notch or three.

God first always.

 

[NoHype]

One who does not believe the written Word of God, can not believe the prophecies written in it either.

I surely agree with that. So when will you begin to believe that for yourself, because I've already offered Scripture to discuss, but you appear to be ignorant of that Scripture. So when are you going to follow The Word of God so we here might believe it?