Trinity

[Butch5]

The Athanasian Creed says there are three coequals. The apostle Paul flatly refutes that.

Philippians 2:5–7 (NET): 2:5 You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had,
2:6 who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
2:7 but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.

Here Paul says that Jesus was in the form of God. So, this is prior to the incarnation. He was in the form of God. Whatever form the Father is, Jesus was also. Paul tells us that even in that state, the form of God, Jesus did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. So, even in the form God Jesus didn't think He was equal with God. Paul's words here flatly refute the statement in the Athanasian Creed that there are three coequals.

 

[Butch5]

The Athanasian Creed also says there are three almighties. That is a logical contradiction. There cannot be three almighties. Almighty, by definition means mightier than all. If one has equals he is not mightier than his equals thus, he is not almighty. So, we see that two of the three claims in the Athanasian Creed are wrong. Shouldn't we put this creed under more serious scrutiny?

 

[Waggles]

In the end does it matter?
God is spirit and dwells in the spiritual realm with a host of other spirit beings (some even have six wings).
When I rise up to meet my Lord and God after the tribulation that has come upon the whole Earth then I will know a lot more about all of this - having acquired a new spirit body.
In the meantime love without hypocrisy; be generous and share with those in need; be given to hospitality; avenge not evil;
pray in tongues daily and walk in the Spirit bearing fruit to the Spirit of God.
If you can do this ye do well.
Leave the contentious theology to those who are ever learning but never come to the knowledge of truth.

 

[Garee]

In the end does it matter?
God is spirit and dwells in the spiritual realm with a host of other spirit beings (some even have six wings).
When I rise up to meet my Lord and God after the tribulation that has come upon the whole Earth then I will know a lot more about all of this - having acquired a new spirit body.
In the meantime love without hypocrisy; be generous and share with those in need; be given to hospitality; avenge not evil;
pray in tongues daily and walk in the Spirit bearing fruit to the Spirit of God.
If you can do this ye do well.
Leave the contentious theology to those who are ever learning but never come to the knowledge of truth.

I would think it does matter and not that we are saved by our knowledge that He has freely given us as our teacher..comforter guide , last and not least he is the reminder of what he previously taught (no self taught) He reminds us of each other so we can pray wisely.

The idea of some daily tongue that provides no meaning .leave contentious over to those who are ever leanings and not coming to truth

Truth is more than baby sounds without meaning falling backward slain in the Spirit. .

God our one teaching master brings understandable words to our rememberance.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Knowledge it puff up Love forgives or covers up a multitude of sin .. . all except for blasphemy (no forgiveness ).

God who name is jealous is one God. He who has no needs satisfies all is not served by human hands . (Acts 17)

​

 

[Garee]

.
I have often asked myself and looked for answers about the eternal purpose of the Lord Jesus the Anointing. these passages really explained and brought together the answers that resolved this burning question i sought for.


Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Spirit Of The Holy, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou OUT OF my right UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool.



Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit OUT OF my right UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool?

:12........ But this man, " AFTER " he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever sat down IN the right of God

:13 FROM HENCEFORTH EXPECTING UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.

the great question is answered by going directly to the original message of the manuscripts - After his enemies are made a footstool Jesus expects that he will no longer sit OUT OF the right of God and he expects that he will sit IN of the right of God

meaning = - he was then expecting until the TIME COMES that his enemies be made a footstool - he was to then sit IN the right of God, no longer sitting OUT OF the right of God.

I would offer,

Compare the spiritual (unseen) understanding to the spiritual .Called faith to faith."the gospel "

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.1For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.. . . .( Christ in us)

1 Corinthians 2: 13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It would seem you are mixing the doctrines. Hebrews is speaking of identifying to which apostle did he say I will be the father you be the first born of many sons of God. ?

Hebrew 1 :5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The Mark 12 reference provides a different kind of doctrine . Jesus is challenged by the Sadducees that say there is no resurrections


They mocked the doctrine of the seed Christ (the spiritual) God .the sed Onan spilled and was killed for violating the ceremonial law..

They asked thinking they had stumped him ; . . . whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

Teaching us laws apply to the physical world the temporal Not a continuation of today as the Sadducees thought.

No marrying or procreation in heaven.

Mark16: 19-25 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

 

[Searchingtoo]

John 17:3 And this is the eternal life, to know thee the only true God, and whom thou didst send, Jesus Christ.
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know the true one, and we are in the true one, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1John 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the word of the life
2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and witness, and declare to you the life, the eternal, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us);

1 John 5:20:
t is obvious that grammatically the word "this" (outos) could be referring to either the Father or Jesus in this particular scripture (see the footnote for 1 John 5:20 in the very trinitarian NIV Study Bible). But the fact that the true God (or "the true One") has just been identified as the Father of Jesus (1 Jn 5:20, TEV and GNB) makes it highly probable that "this is the true God" refers to the Father, not Jesus. The highly trinitarian NT scholar Murray J. Harris sums up his 13-page analysis of this scripture as follows:

"Although it is certainly possible that outos refers back to Jesus Christ, several converging lines of evidence point to `the true one,' God theFather, as the probable antecedent. This position, outos = God [Father], is held by many commentators, authors of general studies, and significantly, by those grammarians who express an opinion on the matter." - p. 253, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Notice how this trinitarian scholar actually admits that the probabilityis that the Father (not Jesus) is being called the true God here. He even tells us (and cites examples in his footnotes) that New Testament grammarians and commentators (most of them trinitarian, of course) agree!
John 1:1 (which has been covered ad nauseam):
In NT (New Testament) Greek the word used for "God" and "a god" is theos (θεὸς).

The Gospel writers (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) always used the article "the" (o with a tiny "c" above it in NT Greek: ὁ ) with theos when they intended "God." That is, when they meant to say "God" they would always write ho theos (ὁ θεὸς). [This does not always hold true for other Greek forms of "God" e.g. theou or theon or theo.]

As you can see below the only place John omitted the definite article (the ὁ) was in John 1:1c showing he did not intend to say that Jesus was God, but rather a god.

1 1722 [e] 1 En 1 Ἐν 1 In [the] 1 Prep​

746 [e] archē ἀρχῇ beginning N-DFS​

1510 [e] ēn ἦν was V-IIA-3S​

3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS​

3056 [e] Logos Λόγος , Word N-NMS​

2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj​

3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS​

3056 [e] Logos Λόγος Word N-NMS​

1510 [e] ēn ἦν was V-IIA-3S​

4314 [e] pros πρὸς with Prep​

3588 [e] ton τὸν - Art-AMS​

2316 [e] Theon Θεόν , God N-AMS​

2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj​

2316 [e] Theos Θεὸς God N-NMS​

1510 [e] ēn ἦν was V-IIA-3S​

3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS​

3056 [e] Logos Λόγος . Word N-NMS​

 

[Curtis]

Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

That's one translation. Here's another: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped. If you see your form in a mirror or a shadow that's not really another you is it.

 

[Garee]

That's one translation. Here's another: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped. If you see your form in a mirror or a shadow that's not really another you is it.

If form is seen then we know it is not God. God has none never did never will. God is not a man as us.

A form as a legion of gods in the likeness men come from the unredeemed philosophies of mankind they have no eternal vision beyond what the eyes see . They attribute the word of the gospel to the flesh. . God is not served by human hand. . hands of the apostles.

In the parable below remember apostles preach the gospel the living word does the teaching enabling a person to walk with God. "Stand upright on thy feet"

Acts14:7-14 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

 

[Twistie]

Same God, manifested in human flesh.

If that's so what does Yeshua say I can not to do My will but the Will of My Father????...

 

[Waggles]

I am glad that there are so many people who know with certainty how the spirit realm works and how spirit beings interact with each other.
If there is a "father and son" relationship with YHWH being manifested as two divine beings, then Jesus is still the most preeminent being of the MOST HIGH 'ĕlôhı̂ym
above all other spirit beings.
It would seem that the satan and his lot knew exactly who Jesus is ...
Mark 5:7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”
8 For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
9 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?
I beg you, do not torment me.”

 

[Waggles]

Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their rock, the Most High God their redeemer.

Titus 2:13 awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a people for his possession, zealous of good works.

 

[MedicBravo]

Ok, people. Just b/c a word doesn't appear in the Bible or ANY book doesn't mean the concept or thing doesn't exist.
Yahweh is the one true God and yet Jesus and the Holy Spirit have exist at the same time.
He is beyond what mortal minds can comprehend and at best from the Bible and how he interacts with Creation.

 

[paths that cross]

.
Please allow the conclusion to this particular point I was attempting to explain

Being that - the Roman Catholic Institution known as the Church Fathers of Rome and Egypt are the fathers of the Trinity doctrine.

please allow these two Bible Translations to explain the development of the Trinity and how it is presented in the Roman Catholic Translation VERSUS contrasting - the Protestant K.J.V. translation


NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO TRANSLATION IN HOW THE TRANSLATORS ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN THE TRINITY


first the - Catholic Douay Rheims - translated directly from the Latin Vulgate


Heb 10:12 But this man, offering one sacrifice for sins, for ever sitteth on the right hand of God,


and next the earlier - Catholic Latin Vulgate template


:12 But this man, offering one sacrifice for sins, for ever sitteth on the right hand of God,


and now - the Protestant K.J.V.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


what we see here - in the enormous contradiction and massive difference between these two translations is that the Catholic Translation states that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins, - then a comma " , " Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins, - - ( FOLLOWED BY A COMMA PUNCTUATION MARKING ))


the Catholic translations go on to say " for ever sitteth on the right hand of God, " - - so the Catholics explain the Trinity to say for sure - Jesus - for ever sitteth on the right hand of God,

however the contradiction and difference is that the Protestant K.J.V. places a comma after the word " forever " - to say that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, then the comma " , "

followed by - , sat down on the right hand of God. The K.J.V removes the message that says that Jesus for ever sitteth on the right hand of God

because eventually Trinitarians realized that their translation expressly says that Jesus is NOT forever sitting on the right hand of God.


:13 FROM HENCEFORTH EXPECTING UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.


Mar 12:36 Sit ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thy enemies thy footstool.
Luk 20:42 Sit thou ON my right hand, - UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Act 2:34 Sit thou ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thy foes thy footstool.
Heb 1:13 Sit ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool?


the translators later translating the Protestant K.J.V. attempted to fix this contradiction by moving and shuffling the punctuation to move the " comma > to translate


after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever ,,,,, - sat down ON the right hand of God;

vs the Catholic

offering one sacrifice for sins,,,,, - for ever sitteth ON the right hand of God,


Protestants realized that they cannot believe in a Trinitarian Jesus who forever sits ON the right hand of Trinitarian God - but they cannot believe in a Jesus who is not a Trinitarian


so they adjust and simply move a punctuation mark to deny and diminish the very deity of Jesus that had been instituted in the confusing and contradiction of the Trinity Contradiction instituted by their Roman Catholic mother.
Protestants to this day cannot answer the question using their Translation, - when does Jesus be removed and taken away and loose his seat and position of being GLORIFIED to sit at the right hand of God ? ? ?

because to Trinitarians the question simply means to them - when is the seating arrangement in heaven changed for the Trinitarian Jesus

​

this is not something that Trinitarians can answer because the original manuscripts of the New Testament are so clear and so precise to explain that Jesus is NOW IN the right of God and this is eternal ..... - as they replace the word IN with the words - AT and ON . - Trinitarians are left with no answer from their translations nor do they have concern to answer the question, in fact it is insulting to ask about the manuscript - nor can they remove the underlying message of the manuscript no matter how many passages they change and alter.

after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever ,,,,, - sat down ON the right hand of God;

:13 FROM HENCEFORTH EXPECTING UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.

Mar 12:36 Sit ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thy enemies thy footstool.​

 

[paths that cross]

this is how trinitarian protestants rebelled against mother Rome

 

[Waggles]

YHWH is both the Father and the Son.
Two YHWH are indicated in the OT.
But one YHWH has the specific purpose of coming down to Earth often, and interacts with Adam and the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants,
and also then with Moses and the prophets.
This YHWH also has many other names and titles, including " the word of the LORD" or more properly the word of YHWH.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person of the "Trinity" but rather the operative power and action of YHWH the Father upon our world and us humans.
The Spirit of God is referred to as a HE because the Spirit is of God and is the will and consciousness of YHWH.

The amazing mystery about the Holy Spirit is that even though the Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father and comes from the Father yet the Spirit
is also described as the Spirit of Christ. [Romans 8:9 and 1Peter 1:11]
John 14:20 In that day [Pentecost] you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Here Jesus is clearly promising Pentecostal disciples that when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit they will indeed have both the Father and the Son.

 

[paths that cross]

.
Hello there Garee

Thank you so very much for taking time to reply to my post

I was not ignoring you but was thinking for some time about what you were saying, not immediately knowing what my response should be to your wonderful post.

I do understand what you say about the spiritual (unseen) and how that the Holy Ghost teacheth by comparing spiritual things with spiritual with the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: and that they are foolishness and - are spiritually discerned.

I do know that the Greek word for Angel means “ a messenger “ - aggelos - and this could apply to human messengers as well.

And you believe that I am misunderstanding the scripture and in error - to be mixing up and misrepresenting the passage in the Book of Hebrews where Jesus is saying “ unto which of the “ Apostles or Angel “ did he say I will be the father you be the first born of many sons of God .

If I understand you correctly, you believe that Jesus is referring to the Messengers meaning = the Apostles and not the Angels of heaven ?

But if we read the context of the entire chapter we see that it is the Angels of heaven that Jesus is truly referring to Angels who are spirits - as we see in Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit OUT OF MY RIGHT, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

In conclusion, the sons and daughters of God whom are humans here on earth are called “ sons and daughters of God “
and by being “ born again “ in the Spirit of Jesus Christ they can become “ BORN / BEGOTTEN OF GOD “ this is not something that the angels of heaven can ever receive.

Angels were never born therefore are incapable of becoming born again in the spirit. They would never be born of God in a spiritual sense.

Angels of heaven are made as - angels being spirits, and these ministers are made as a flame of fire and Angels are not born and conceived as sons - they were never sons or children because an Angel was never born as a child - Angels were never sons nor children of anyone. This is why to be born or begotten of God - humans must be born again in the Spirit of God - furthermore, humans were not created as - a flame of fire - as the passage explains.

Would you agree that to be made or created as “ a flame of fire “ this would mean that this is the creation of a spiritual angelic spirit and not a human being ?

please reply if you wish when you find time, i do appreciate the fellowship with other Christians .
also I forgot to mention - Heb 1:14

here the passages says that the Angels are sent to minister - for them - who shall be heirs of salvation, I notice that in the Bible there is no plan of salvation and repentance for Angels in heaven - it just is not something that is mentioned in the scriptures - as for Angels receiving salvation, redemption and a plan of salvation and being born of God. Angels were never born as children.

 

[Butch5]

YHWH is both the Father and the Son.
Two YHWH are indicated in the OT.
But one YHWH has the specific purpose of coming down to Earth often, and interacts with Adam and the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants,
and also then with Moses and the prophets.
This YHWH also has many other names and titles, including " the word of the LORD" or more properly the word of YHWH.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person of the "Trinity" but rather the operative power and action of YHWH the Father upon our world and us humans.
The Spirit of God is referred to as a HE because the Spirit is of God and is the will and consciousness of YHWH.

The amazing mystery about the Holy Spirit is that even though the Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father and comes from the Father yet the Spirit
is also described as the Spirit of Christ. [Romans 8:9 and 1Peter 1:11]
John 14:20 In that day [Pentecost] you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Here Jesus is clearly promising Pentecostal disciples that when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit they will indeed have both the Father and the Son.

Hi Waggles, I'd like add a bit if don't mind. The word translated Spirit, as in Holy Spirit, is in the Greek neuter gender. It should properly be translated as "it" not he. The only place the Spirit is referred to as "He" in the Greek text is when it is called the Conforter. The reason that it called he is a grammatical one. In Greek the pronoun of a word has to agree with that word in Gender. The Greek word Parakltos, translated Comforter, is in the masculine gender. Therefore the grammar requires that the pronoun also be masculine. Thus the Comforter is called "He" because the grammar requires. All of the places where the Holy Spirit is referred to as "He" the translation is being theologically driven.

 

[Curtis]

If you see your form in a mirror or a shadow that's not really another you is it.

If it is not you then who is it?

 

[Curtis]

If form is seen then we know it is not God

Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.

whose form did Moses see?