Universalism - a discussion

[Rhema]

I've started this thread on behalf of @Marston and anyone who wishes to discuss Universalism.

My belief is that God does indeed give us time and space to be "lost" from him - for now. I believe that God sent the son to us to "find" the lost sheep and that God wants Jesus to find and save ALL people and that God's will WILL be accomplished.

I believe the LOF is punitive but that it's punitive for the purpose of restoration, not endless torture.

I believe that the ages will culminate with all who ever existed entering God's Kingdom.

I believe ALL who ever existed will, eventually, be in God's Kingdom, even Hitler.

While I have in the past considered this view, I've found a better understand to be that fire burns up and destroys anything that was there. Fire is all consuming. And so I've adopted a position of Obliteration for the unrepentant - they shall be no more.

@Marston if you could be so kind as to present your case with the appropriate scriptures, it might make for a beneficial discussion.

Kindly
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

While I have in the past considered this view, I've found a better understand to be that fire burns up and destroys anything that was there. Fire is all consuming. And so I've adopted a position of Obliteration for the unrepentant - they shall be no more.

I find annihilationism to be a low effort discernment of scripture.

Whilst on one hand it is better than a belief of eternal conscious torture in something akin to a brazen bull, on the other hand it has serious scriptural shortcomings that expose manipulation and does sadly still incriminate God as evil by suggesting He does not give free will.

My arguments against it are:

1. Why is fire not all consuming in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31?

2. Annihilationists cannot explain Rev 14:10 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. - Our expectation would be that the smoke would die out once the fire had finished its work.

3. Matt 25:46 Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. - In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.”

4. If God is good, He has to give His highly intelligent creation free will. Accept me or die, is not free will. If death = eternal separation in a home away from God, it is free will. If you don't agree with me, make it personal. Ask your daughter, sorry demand that your daughter marry a man you selected or else you will end her very existence. Let me know how it goes.

5. Scripture says that when Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit, they would die. Death for them was ex-communication from Eden. From God's presence. Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

 

[KingJ]

@Rhema I've started this thread on behalf of @Marston and anyone who wishes to discuss Universalism.

Marston said:
I believe ALL who ever existed will, eventually, be in God's Kingdom, even Hitler.

I would love to hear someone explain with rational thought and logic on how a belief of rehabilitation of the wicked is not a good thing. Something every good person would want to do. This is why universalism is a perfectly logical belief to hold to if and when you grasp that God is good and righteous in all His ways.

Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good and His mercy endures forever.
Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways.

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I do not believe in universalism because I believe we cannot grasp God's ability to properly judge us. It is a lot like the OSAS discussion that always goes sideways for the same reason.

Jer 17:9-12 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? “I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.

This verse states clearly that only God can judge the depths of a person's heart and mind. As such, if He says any will be cast into eternal punishment it is surely only after He has concluded that said individual would never be able to be truly rehabilitated.

We see snippets of this truth throughout scripture. Gen 15:16, sin of Amorites not 'yet' full measure. Pharoah, heart hardened Exo 10. Devil sinning since beginning 1 John 3:8, in Revelations too after every plague that hits mankind, it says they 'repented not'. God is giving more than ample evidence to us of this time on earth being an effective filtering process.

John 3:19 is also a key verse - This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

In order to teach and believe that God remains 'good' in the future if eternal punishment is a reality, one needs to believe that hell is a home and that it will not be torture 24/7. I believe this and explain it in the OP here - What to expect in hell.

 

[Marston]

God wants ALL to be saved and I believe that God gets what he wants.

1 Timothy 2:4
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[B-A-C]

God wants ALL to be saved and I believe that God gets what he wants.

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[Rhema]

I find annihilationism to be a low effort discernment of scripture.

OFF TOPIC. PLEASE READ THE TITLE AND GET A CLUE.

You tend to find everything that doesn't agree with you to be "low effort." You ever put the effort in to learn the language in which the New Testament was written? (Need I even ask...)

Rhema

a brazen bull

(I see your obsession with this continues...)

 

[Rhema]

John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Hi @B-A-C one might ask what this judgment consists of. Perhaps rehab? (Playing devil's advocate here.)

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I believe that God gets what he wants.

What about sickness and disease? The abject pain of childhood cancer?

Does God want that?

A more generic way of asking this questions would be did God want Adam and Eve to "fall" in the garden?

Just wondering,
Rhema

 

[Marston]

What about sickness and disease? The abject pain of childhood cancer?

Does God want that?

A more generic way of asking this questions would be did God want Adam and Eve to "fall" in the garden?

Just wondering,
Rhema

You're asking me to speculate and so I will.

My best guess is that God allows bad things to happen to us in order for us to learn and grow closer to him.

God knew Adam and Eve would fail and it was all a part of his plan.

 

[KingJ]

OFF TOPIC. PLEASE READ THE TITLE AND GET A CLUE.

While I have in the past considered this view, I've found a better understand to be that fire burns up and destroys anything that was there. Fire is all consuming. And so I've adopted a position of Obliteration for the unrepentant - they shall be no more.

Annihilation and eternal torture are the alternatives to universalism. Discussing them is 100% on topic.

Then, you somehow did not see or grasp the fact that I quoted your OP?

Ooh Rhema, long day?

You tend to find everything that doesn't agree with you to be "low effort." You ever put the effort in to learn the language in which the New Testament was written? (Need I even ask...)

Well, I explained why I believed it was low effort. I see you ignore it and focus on those specific words only.

(I see your obsession with this continues...)

Of course. Any who teach torture in fire insinuate that.

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One would think you try be civil and friendly in your own thread. If someone said my belief was low effort, I would post an efforted rebuttal .

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Well, at least now we have come closer to proving universalism to be true, by eliminating annihilationism from the discussion.

 

[KingJ]

What about sickness and disease? The abject pain of childhood cancer?

Does God want that?

Yes. He created evil.

It is important however to never state sin on the earth in isolation to Him also wanting this to start with Adam and Eve's decision to eat the forbidden fruit.

We need to consider A-Z of a scenario to grasp what He '''wanted''.

A more generic way of asking this questions would be did God want Adam and Eve to "fall" in the garden?

Yes. He placed the devil in Eden with Adam and Eve.

 

[KingJ]

God wants ALL to be saved and I believe that God gets what he wants.

1 Timothy 2:4
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has to say that to show us that He is impartial to all. Now when we see people go to hell for all eternity, we can know that He tried all he could for them.

 

[Marston]

God has to say that to show us that He is impartial to all. Now when we see people go to hell for all eternity, we can know that He tried all he could for them.

I don't believe anyone goes to through the Lake of Fire process forever. Such a punitive fate is counter to God's nature and it is unbiblical.

 

[KingJ]

I don't believe anyone goes to through the Lake of Fire process forever. Such a punitive fate is counter to God's nature and it is unbiblical.

I briefly explain myself in post #3 here and provided a link to a detailed explanation on a thread I created.

Eternal punishment is very Scriptural.

You choose to not believe it because you cannot reconcile God's good nature with eternal torture. That is a valid argument and sound thinking.

When we study scrupture we find that God never tortures the wicked. There is no evidence of this anywhere in scripture. The word 'torment' has a range to it like the word 'sick'. You can have the ebola virus or you can be sick and tired of listening to your teacher.

But what you are not grasping is what I explain in post 3. People are sold out to a love of what is evil. You would be forcing them to be with God. That would be a type of torture too. God is light and in Him is no darkness 1 John 1:5. Any who love darkness will hate Him, that is the verdict John 3:19.

Some people will just never want what is good. Never be able to reduce their pride and be humble.

 

[Marston]

Never be able to reduce their pride and be humble.

Are you humble?

 

[Marston]

1 Timothy 2:4
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

As I shared here, God desires ALL people to be saved. Why does anyone believe that God is incapable of getting what he wants?

 

[B-A-C]

Why does anyone believe that God is incapable of getting what he wants?

Maybe what He wants... is for people to make a choice.

Josh 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[Marston]

Maybe what He wants... is for people to make a choice.

Josh 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

No doubt that many have not been blessed with the gift of truth and faith as have we. However, it is clear to me that God will, in his own time, allow ALL to follow him, albeit for some that won't happen for them while they are living on Earth.

 

[Garee]

As I shared here, God desires ALL people to be saved. Why does anyone believe that God is incapable of getting what he wants?

How has he made it known to all people dead in their trespass and sin without God in this present world. . . . . that they will be saved?

What is the token ?

How can he hear if he has no ears to hear spiritual living words?

Faith belief in God not seen comes by hearing him not seen, the saving faith or work of grace is not from us. . . faithless no power to raise from the dead

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[MedicBravo]

There is no point in Hell if everyone "eventually goes to Heaven."
Sending all who "didn't make the cut" to a non-existent but will entertain it does,
Purgatory until they meet some list that no one knows about to get out.

A true Christian doesn't believe in Universalism. It's a spit in Jesus' face.