What do you believe?

[B-A-C]

God is love, but God is just and righteous.

God may have loved the people of the Earth, but He still drowned the entire population of the Earth ( except Noah and his family )
God may have loved the sons of Achan, but He still opened up the Earth and swallowed them alive.
God may have loved the Egyptian chariot drivers, but He closed the red sea over them and drowned them.
God may have loved Sodom and Gomorrah, but He still rained fire and brimstone on the people of these cities.
God may have loved the Amalakites, but He told the Jews to kill their women and Babies.
God may have loved Herod Agrippa, but He still struck him down and let worms consume him.
God may have loved Ananias and Sapphira, but He still struck them down dead for lying to the Holy Spirit.
God may have loved the priests of Baal, but He still had them beheaded.
God may love the Devil ( questionable?) the beast and the false prophet, but they will still burn forever.
God may love those who take the mark of the beast, but they will still burn forever.

There are dozens more examples like these.
It seems that usually if God has to make choice between love and righteousness, He usually chooses righteousness.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[KingJ]

Explain to me how being separated for Abba having no light having nothing good isn't torment n torture

¯⁠\⁠_⁠༼⁠ᴼ⁠ل͜⁠ᴼ⁠༽⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Well of course it is a type of torture. But yet again, it appears you have not read my link. I am not batting for a nice hell. Only that it is not a place of torture as defined in my link......

I quote one more time hoping you will read it Discussion on Torture.

Now, if you are battling with discerning torture from torture, let's try an actual example. Please do both of the below:

A - Go into your room. Switch off the light and sit there for an hour. Let me know how much pain you felt and if you think doing that to someone else is a punishment you would 'ordain' for a criminal if you DEFINED yourself as LOVE.

B - Go into your room. Light a candle. Hold your finger 1mm above the fire for the entire hour. Let me know how much pain you felt and if you think doing that to someone else is a punishment you would 'ordain' for a criminal if you DEFINED yourself as LOVE.

Once you have done this, let's chat. It seems words are not helping you understand the difference between torture of separation and torture akin to a brazen bull.

 

[KingJ]

God is love, but God is just and righteous.

Yes, and there is nothing, LITERALLY NOTHING loving, just and righteous with TORTURE.

Now I can only assume you forgot to state this and do agree. If you don't, please try the above case study I have asked @Twistie to perform, see point A and B in post # 42.

 

[Rhema]

God may have loved the people of the Earth, but He still drowned the entire population of the Earth ( except Noah and his family )

After which God said this, "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" when Noah offered up burnt sacrifices.

It seems that usually if God has to make choice between love and righteousness, He usually chooses righteousness.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because they do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.​

(John 16:7-12 NRSV)

God is love, but God is just and righteous.

Forgiveness is just and righteous. Who are those who reject the sovereignty of God to forgive sin and declare that God demands payment?

Rhema

 

[B-A-C]

he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

Hmmm... talk about a bad translation.

John 16:8
(AMPC) And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:
(ASV) And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(BSB) And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
(CSB) When he comes, he will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment:
(ESV) And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
(GNB) And when he comes, he will prove to the people of the world that they are wrong about sin and about what is right and about God's judgment.
(Greek NT BYZ+) καιG2532 CONJ ελθωνG2064 V-2AAP-NSM εκεινοςG1565 D-NSM ελεγξειG1651 V-FAI-3S τονG3588 T-ASM κοσμονG2889 N-ASM περιG4012 PREP αμαρτιαςG266 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ περιG4012 PREP δικαιοσυνηςG1343 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ περιG4012 PREP κρισεωςG2920 N-GSF
(HCSB) When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment:
(ISV) When he comes, he will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment—
(KJV) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(MKJV) And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
(NAS77) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment;
(NAS95) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
(NET) And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong concerning sin and righteousness and judgment –
(NIrV) When he comes, he will prove that the world's people are guilty. He will prove their guilt concerning sin and godliness and judgment.
(NIV) When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
(NKJV) And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(NLT) And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.
(NRSV) And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
(NRSVA) And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
(RV) And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(YLT) and having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;

 

[Rhema]

Hmmm... talk about a bad translation.

As if you can read Greek....

So have at it then:

και ελθων εκεινος ελεγξει τον κοσμον περι αμαρτιας και περι δικαιοσυνης και περι κρισεως

I can wait. (Maybe....)
Rhema

 

[B-A-C]

και ελθων εκεινος ελεγξει τον κοσμον περι αμαρτιας και περι δικαιοσυνης και περι κρισεως

And he came to reprove the world about sin and about righteousness and about judgment

Υποθέτετε πάρα πολλά

 

[Rhema]

to reprove

Thank you, but why would anyone translate a Future Active Indicative as an Infinitive?

(And you chide others about a bad translation?)

The important question, though, is from where do you get the word "reprove" ? Did you just copy the KJV? Because in your translation dump, most versions use the word "convict." Fourteen of them. Only the KJV uses "reprove." And five use "prove wrong," including the NRSV that I quoted.

What gives?

Υποθέτετε πάρα πολλά

Oh I do, do I? υποθέτω eh? Well your own post proves otherwise. I'm pretty sure you mean υποθέτεις. to mean ME singular. So why would you use the plural ending if you knew Greek? You could just be honest about your own abilities instead of slaughtering whatever web translator you used.

And should one really conflate modern Greek with Koine?

Rhema
(But at least you're not a KJV only-ist. )

 

[Twistie]

Well of course it is a type of torture. But yet again, it appears you have not read my link. I am not batting for a nice hell. Only that it is not a place of torture as defined in my link......

I quote one more time hoping you will read it Discussion on Torture.

Now, if you are battling with discerning torture from torture, let's try an actual example. Please do both of the below:

A - Go into your room. Switch off the light and sit there for an hour. Let me know how much pain you felt and if you think doing that to someone else is a punishment you would 'ordain' for a criminal if you DEFINED yourself as LOVE.

B - Go into your room. Light a candle. Hold your finger 1mm above the fire for the entire hour. Let me know how much pain you felt and if you think doing that to someone else is a punishment you would 'ordain' for a criminal if you DEFINED yourself as LOVE.

Once you have done this, let's chat. It seems words are not helping you understand the difference between torture of separation and torture akin to a brazen bull.

Naw I'm fine with that I'm not seeking the darkness I'm sticking with the Light
Like I said makes no sense what so ever to me..

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠⊙⁠_⁠ʖ⁠⊙⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

[KingJ]

Like I said makes no sense what so ever to me..

What makes no sense?

 

[KingJ]

God is love, but God is just and righteous.

God may have loved the people of the Earth, but He still drowned the entire population of the Earth ( except Noah and his family )

Death by drowning - 1. For the first several seconds after water is inhaled, the drowning person is in a state of fight-or-flight as they struggle to breathe. 2. As the airway begins to close to prevent more water from getting into the lungs, the person will start to hold their breath involuntarily. This takes place for up to 2 minutes, until they lose consciousness. 3. The person becomes unconscious. During this stage, they can still be revived through resuscitation and have a chance at a good outcome. Breathing stops and the heart slows. This can last for several minutes. 4. The body enters a state called hypoxic convulsion. This can look like a seizure. Without oxygen, the person’s body appears to turn blue and may jerk around erratically. 5. The brain, heart, and lungs reach a state beyond where they can be revived. This final stage of drowning is called cerebral hypoxia, followed by clinical death.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved the sons of Achan, but He still opened up the Earth and swallowed them alive.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved the Egyptian chariot drivers, but He closed the red sea over them and drowned them.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved Sodom and Gomorrah, but He still rained fire and brimstone on the people of these cities.

The fires of Sodom were as a furnace Gen 19;28. God ensured the city experienced a swift destruction in fire. No lengthened suffering as some do for torturous purposes.

The amount of pain experienced in fire is greatest at the beginning of the burning process before the flame burns the nerves, after which the skin does not hurt. Many victims die quickly from suffocation as hot gases damage the respiratory tract.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved the Amalakites, but He told the Jews to kill their women and Babies.

They were instructed to kill swiftly, no torture. Torture would make them as evil or worse. All children go to heaven. They are removed as a rule of war, as it is a known fact that children grow up to avenge the death of their parents.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved Herod Agrippa, but He still struck him down and let worms consume him.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved Ananias and Sapphira, but He still struck them down dead for lying to the Holy Spirit.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may have loved the priests of Baal, but He still had them beheaded.

This is terrible but not torture.

God may love the Devil ( questionable?) the beast and the false prophet, but they will still burn forever. God may love those who take the mark of the beast, but they will still burn forever. God may love those who take the mark of the beast, but they will still burn forever.

Vastly unknown future event. Why assume the absolute worst? Luke 16:19-31 describes suffering in fire. The only passage in scripture that does. Why imply something torturous like a brazen bull type scenario, when scripture does not?

There are dozens more examples like these.

Feel free to quote them. You have not yet provided scripture showing that God tortures the wicked.

 

[KingJ]

@Rhema @B-A-C

και ελθων εκεινος ελεγξει τον κοσμον περι αμαρτιας και περι δικαιοσυνης και περι κρισεως

Using Google translate: and when he comes he will judge the world about sin and about righteousness and judgment

(KJV) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Οι μεταφραστές έκαναν καλή δουλειά

 

[Twistie]

What makes no sense?

The whole splitting words which is worst torment or torture.. it's all the same to me Separation from YH is separation.. I'd rather focus on what bring me closer to Him

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

╮⁠(⁠.⁠ ⁠❛⁠ ⁠ᴗ⁠ ⁠❛⁠.⁠)⁠╭

 

[KingJ]

The whole splitting words which is worst torment or torture.. it's all the same to me Separation from YH is separation.. I'd rather focus on what bring me closer to Him

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

╮⁠(⁠.⁠ ⁠❛⁠ ⁠ᴗ⁠ ⁠❛⁠.⁠)⁠╭

A Christian is on earth to serve God. Now that you are saved, help others. You are NOT helping others if you ever teach God sit a top a list of the most evil beings to ever live.

''These are vain babblings?'' Please explain why you say that.

 

[KingJ]

I'd rather focus on what bring me closer to Him

Teaching and sharing Jesus with others brings you closer to Him.

I am sure that that goes very well for you.

Twistie - ''Dear Bob, come serve Jesus''.
Bob - ''Why''
Twistie - ''So that He doesnt cast you into hell and eternally burn you with fire, duh''
Bob - ''Ok Twistie, sure, I don't want to burn, let me attend your church and sing your songs''.
Bob - ''Twistie, I heard in church that God is love, please explain how He is when you said the above''
Twistie - ''If you torture those who hate you, that is love''
Bob - ''You mad and so are all Christians, goodbye''.
Twistie - ''No, Bob, just don't focus on hell, focus on you and your seat in heaven, thats all that matters''
Bob - ''You mad and so are all Christians, goodbye''.

 

[Twistie]

A Christian is on earth to serve God. Now that you are saved, help others. You are NOT helping others if you ever teach God sit a top a list of the most evil beings to ever live.

''These are vain babblings?'' Please explain why you say that.

That's just pure pride your filled up with lol teach a person the Word lmbo I guess you don't think Abba teaches we r told one teacher if ya think sitting at a computer punching letters arguing over about hell is saving anyone your deceiving yourself.. when u go into the hood n start helping them children to read or teaching them to do what is right n steer them away from selling dope on a corner then talk to me about how your helping..

N what part of the cross where you on that even makes you think you can save another?? Shows right there your still looking at the Word the way the world trys to teach..

Apparently you missed the part when the Messiah said it is finished..

Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves

Funny how a grown man think he needs to teach another grown man or grown woman what the Word tells us to do

If ya teach a man/woman to read they be able to put on the full Armor of God like we r told to do

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ ͡⁠°⁠ ͜⁠ʖ⁠ ͡⁠°⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

[Twistie]

Read!!! this link. if you did, you would not be typing such silly lines.

Thread 'Discussion on Torture'

Aug 22, 2023

Hi all. I think a discussion on torture will shed a lot of much needed light on controversial scripture that many use to incriminate God.

I want to make the argument that a good person cannot torture. Only the evil torture. The moment someone is guilty of torture, they are guilty of being evil.

Let's first 1. properly define torture, then 2. consider the reality of it and then 3. look at what history teaches us.

1. Defining torture:

Torture can be slowly pulling a persons limbs apart or it can be a teacher with an annoying voice. There are degrees.

For the purposes...

• KingJ
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Bible Study

I cannot think of someone further from God than someone who supports a belief that teaches He is not love.

1 John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

N I can't see anyone steering away from YH then to make Him a mushy pushover..
His Wrath is as Holy As His Love

(⁠*⁠・⁠～⁠・⁠*⁠)

 

[Rhema]

Using Google translate

 

[Twistie]

Teaching and sharing Jesus with others brings you closer to Him.

I am sure that that goes very well for you.

Twistie - ''Dear Bob, come serve Jesus''.
Bob - ''Why''
Twistie - ''So that He doesnt cast you into hell and eternally burn you with fire, duh''
Bob - ''Ok Twistie, sure, I don't want to burn, let me attend your church and sing your songs''.
Bob - ''Twistie, I heard in church that God is love, please explain how He is when you said the above''
Twistie - ''If you torture those who hate you, that is love''
Bob - ''You mad and so are all Christians, goodbye''.
Twistie - ''No, Bob, just don't focus on hell, focus on you and your seat in heaven, thats all that matters''
Bob - ''You mad and so are all Christians, goodbye''.

Lmbo

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema @B-A-C

και ελθων εκεινος ελεγξει τον κοσμον περι αμαρτιας και περι δικαιοσυνης και περι κρισεως

He likes the gloss "correct." BUT... I provide for you a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for ἐλέγχω.

A. disgrace, put to shame; treat with contempt,​

II 4. refute, confute​

Also note at the end... "by his coming" as a causal aspect of the verb.

Humans have their own ideas about sin, righteousness, and judgment, which "that one" (the Holy Spirit) by his coming, will correct (prove wrong), even putting those ideas to shame (cf. Acts 2). And yes, I include eternal torture as one of those ideas.

Hope this helps. It should give you a better insight into my world.

Rhema
(@B-A-C)