KingJ
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What do you believe?
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Rhema
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KingJ
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@Still Learning
Just FYI, @Rhema is teaching falsely.
He is focusing on prayer specific scripture to make the case that Jesus was not recognised as God. IE God would be jealous if we prayed to Jesus. Imagine that.
This is sick and twisted ideology that will stumble the weak. It is also pushing a belief against the sites core beliefs. Mods do need to step in and put a stop to his heresy. Any person can cherry pick verses and push wicked theology.
God is a jealous God and He is 100% fine with us praying to, worshipping and glorifying Jesus!! to say otherwise is heresy.
Please see my post # 147 which has 10 valid scriptural points supporting the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Messiah has always been referred to as God. What do you believe?
If Rhema continues stumbling the weak, and teaching that we cannot and must not pray to and worship Jesus he will need to take swimming lessons - Matt 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Still Learning
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Thanks for teaching me. But I'm confused about the Trinitarian belief beginning with Tertullian statement you made.
Trinitarian belief didn't come about until Tertullian? I thought the Triune God was taught in the Old Testament. Was Tertullian before the Old Testament was written?
In the Book of Isaiah, God the Creator (who Christians know as Jesus before He was made manifest in the flesh) speaks, and He says the Lord God and His Spirit sent Him to speak. And then He identifies Himself as the Holy One of Israel who guides them in the way they should go. Wouldn't that be the Trinity seeing as Christianity knows that pre-incarnate Jesus is the Creator God?
Here's where I'm coming from:
1) God the Creator - The Pre-incarnate Jesus
2) The Lord God - God the Father who sends God the Creator
3) God the Holy Spirit who sends God the Creator
Isaiah 48:12-18 King James Version
Hearken unto me [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus], O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus]; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. I [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus], even I [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus], have spoken; yea, I [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus] have called him: I [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus] have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come ye near unto me [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus], hear ye this; I [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus] have not spoken in secret from the beginning [from Genesis 1:1]; from the time that it [the beginning - Genesis 1:1] was, there am I [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus]: and now the Lord God [God the Father], and his Spirit [God the Holy Spirit], hath sent me [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus]. Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my [God the Creator - the Pre-incarnate Jesus] commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
Colossians 1:14-17 King James Version
In whom [Jesus] we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he [Jesus] is before all things, and by him all things consist.
As the Scriptures show, even the Old Testament prophets knew God is a Triune God. Why do you think Tertullian started that belief? Are you listening to the heretical Talmudist Phariseess whom Jesus cursed for being false teaching children of Hell?
Matthew 23:13-15 King James Version
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Still Learning
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I just showed Rhema that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament straight from the Old Testament Scriptures. Maybe that'll be of help to Rhema. I hope so.
Still Learning
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Titus 3:3-7 King James Version
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Rhema
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You are welcome, but I would rather that the Holy Spirit teach you and guide you directly. Just take my words and ponder them in prayer, asking the Father to shine a light to your path. If my words ring true, then embrace them as having God's approval. If they ring false, then ask more questions until we are sure that we understand one another.
Well...we're starting to get into the deep end of the theological pool now, and discussing what scholars call "Christology" - who is Christ.
First, let me provide a video of Dr. Bart Ehrman who gives a nine minute overall presentation about how the early church started to settle questions about who Christ was. He explains the four views held by the early Christians quite well, and it's worth the watch.
What y'all call the Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible of the Jews, and no Rabbi or Jewish scholar would see anything Trinitarian in their scriptures, since it's not there. So, the view that "Here's JESUS !!" in any account in the OT as an example of the Trinity, is late century Christians back-reading things into the OT. As an example, last month I heard a sermon where the pastor said that Jesus was speaking to Moses in the burning bush.
If I may say, that's really stretching things past the limits of common sense.Now I'm NOT saying that there isn't prophecy in the OT about the Messiah. There is. There are numerous prophetic statements about the Messiah, but no place where the Messiah is presented as GOD. The Messiah was sent by God, stands on Earth as God's representative and agent, preached and taught in God's name, with the full power and authority of God being given only after his resurrection as stated in Matthew 28:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(Matthew 28:18 KJV)("IS" not "WAS" to indicate this as a specific point in time.)
And that's a bit of misapprehension. There is no text in the OT that says "JESUS the creator." This is modern Christian theology back-reading things into the OT that are just not written therein. Just look at your own example of Isaiah. YOU have to add in the words to make it say Jesus. Such is not written there to begin with. God had always been seen as the creator, and God the Father at that.
While I appreciate your clarification (explaining the invisible words that you hear up inside your head) let me ask you a question about that quote from Isaiah..
Who is the "him" that was brought?
I really do appreciate you wrangling with the troublesome pronouns, but you left that one out. And who is the "he" that makes the "his" way prosperous. A general interpretation of the majority of Christians that I've either heard, read, or spoken with would view the text in this manner, "I (God the Father) have brought him (the nation of Israel)....
And in your zeal to read Jesus into everything, you seem to have lost the name of God Himself. Is Jesus the name of God? Then who is Jehovah?
Be gathered all of you, and hear, Who among them did declare these things? Jehovah hath loved him, He doth His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm is on the Chaldeans.
(Isaiah 48:14 YLT)The actual Hebrew text uses the name JEHOVAH. (Not Jesus or YESHUA.) Of course you might be a Functional Modalist (a Modalist who thinks he is a Trinitarian). I've encountered quite a number of these lately.
But I see where you have woven together various scripture verses to make a tapestry that is not present in the original texts. I'm surprised that we haven't switched focus to the Gospel according to John - the LOGOS becoming flesh. HOWEVER, (long pause) the Gospel according to John was written as a response to the teachings of Philo, a Jewish scholar living in Alexandria Egypt at the time of Christ, and wrote extensively about the LOGOS of God. One cannot understand the statements in John unless one has first read Philo.
No. They don't. This is taking the idea of the Trinity and going on a snipe hunt to try and find passages that can be twisted into looking something like a Triune God but ONLY if one has to add in words. Like you did.
Why are you comfortable with adding in words to scripture? Like you did with the passage from Isaiah? I've never been able to understand people who could do this without any care in the world.
And then you weaponize scripture to try and curse me? Y'all should look inside yourself to see what went wrong there, brother.
You don't even know what belief Tertullian stated. Have you done a dissertation on him?
I can see that you don't even know when the Talmud was written. It was long after Jesus was dead, Resurrected and ascended.
Talmudic tradition emerged and was compiled between the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the Arab conquest in the early seventh century. Traditionally, it is thought that the Talmud itself was compiled by Rav Ashi and Ravina II around 500 CE, although it is more likely that this happened in the middle of the sixth century. LINK
It's going to be very difficult having a civil conversation with you if you think you know it all before doing any in depth study. There were no "Talmudist Pharisees" during the time of Christ. (How could there be? There was no Talmud.)
Both major families of Greek manuscripts read: οτι (SEEING THAT) εν (IN RESPECT OF) αυτω (HIM)... not "by" him.
(cf. Liddell Scott Lexicon - εν A. I. 7).
I've been reading the Greek text of the New Testament for the last 52 years. Enough to confidently state that your English translations lie to you, especially in verse 14: (go check it out).
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(Colossians 1:14 NRSV)in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
(Colossians 1:14 RV)in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
(Colossians 1:14 ASV)It would seem the word "blood" was added in by later scribes.
BUT... perhaps we should start with this. At least you acknowledge that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature, no? (Or are you going to change the words in verse 15 as well?) So was Jesus born prior to every creature of not?
The Doctrine of the Trinity denies that Jesus was the "firstborn of every creature," a position that Arius held.
Ah... I'm sorry, I missed the sarcasm at first.
At this point, I don't think you are confused, but just said this to ease into your polemic. Are you sure you've not been disingenuous?
God bless,
Rhema
Still Learning
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Lol. The Scriptures determine the truth, not so-called know it all's like Erhman, you, nor anyone else. You don't believe the Scriptures or that Jesus is God and I say so be it. Amen. I'm moving on to someone who actually does have the Holy Spirit, because you clearly don't. You are filled solely with yourself and religious pride, so good bye.You are welcome, but I would rather that the Holy Spirit teach you and guide you directly. Just take my words and ponder them in prayer, asking the Father to shine a light to your path. If my words ring true, then embrace them as having God's approval. If they ring false, then ask more questions until we are sure that we understand one another.
Well...we're starting to get into the deep end of the theological pool now, and discussing what scholars call "Christology" - who is Christ.
First, let me provide a video of Dr. Bart Ehrman who gives a nine minute overall presentation about how the early church started to settle questions about who Christ was. He explains the four views held by the early Christians quite well, and it's worth the watch.
What y'all call the Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible of the Jews, and no Rabbi or Jewish scholar would see anything Trinitarian in their scriptures, since it's not there. So, the view that "Here's JESUS !!" in any account in the OT as an example of the Trinity, is late century Christians back-reading things into the OT. As an example, last month I heard a sermon where the pastor said that Jesus was speaking to Moses in the burning bush.
Now I'm NOT saying that there isn't prophecy in the OT about the Messiah. There is. There are numerous prophetic statements about the Messiah, but no place where the Messiah is presented as GOD. The Messiah was sent by God, stands on Earth as God's representative and agent, preached and taught in God's name, with the full power and authority of God being given only after his resurrection as stated in Matthew 28:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.(Matthew 28:18 KJV)
("IS" not "WAS" to indicate this as a specific point in time.)
And that's a bit of misapprehension. There is no text in the OT that says "JESUS the creator." This is modern Christian theology back-reading things into the OT that are just not written therein. Just look at your own example of Isaiah. YOU have to add in the words to make it say Jesus. Such is not written there to begin with. God had always been seen as the creator, and God the Father at that.
While I appreciate your clarification (explaining the invisible words that you hear up inside your head) let me ask you a question about that quote from Isaiah..
Who is the "him" that was brought?
I really do appreciate you wrangling with the troublesome pronouns, but you left that one out. And who is the "he" that makes the "his" way prosperous. A general interpretation of the majority of Christians that I've either heard, read, or spoken with would view the text in this manner, "I (God the Father) have brought him (the nation of Israel)....
And in your zeal to read Jesus into everything, you seem to have lost the name of God Himself. Is Jesus the name of God? Then who is Jehovah?
Be gathered all of you, and hear, Who among them did declare these things? Jehovah hath loved him, He doth His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm is on the Chaldeans.(Isaiah 48:14 YLT)
The actual Hebrew text uses the name JEHOVAH. (Not Jesus or YESHUA.) Of course you might be a Functional Modalist (a Modalist who thinks he is a Trinitarian). I've encountered quite a number of these lately.
But I see where you have woven together various scripture verses to make a tapestry that is not present in the original texts. I'm surprised that we haven't switched focus to the Gospel according to John - the LOGOS becoming flesh. HOWEVER, (long pause) the Gospel according to John was written as a response to the teachings of Philo, a Jewish scholar living in Alexandria Egypt at the time of Christ, and wrote extensively about the LOGOS of God. One cannot understand the statements in John unless one has first read Philo.
No. They don't. This is taking the idea of the Trinity and going on a snipe hunt to try and find passages that can be twisted into looking something like a Triune God but ONLY if one has to add in words. Like you did.
Why are you comfortable with adding in words to scripture? Like you did with the passage from Isaiah? I've never been able to understand people who could do this without any care in the world.
And then you weaponize scripture to try and curse me? Y'all should look inside yourself to see what went wrong there, brother.
You don't even know what belief Tertullian stated. Have you done a dissertation on him?
I can see that you don't even know when the Talmud was written. It was long after Jesus was dead, Resurrected and ascended.
Talmudic tradition emerged and was compiled between the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the Arab conquest in the early seventh century. Traditionally, it is thought that the Talmud itself was compiled by Rav Ashi and Ravina II around 500 CE, although it is more likely that this happened in the middle of the sixth century. LINK
It's going to be very difficult having a civil conversation with you if you think you know it all before doing any in depth study. There were no "Talmudist Pharisees" during the time of Christ. (How could there be? There was no Talmud.)
Both major families of Greek manuscripts read: οτι (SEEING THAT) εν (IN RESPECT OF) αυτω (HIM)... not "by" him.
(cf. Liddell Scott Lexicon - εν A. I. 7).
I've been reading the Greek text of the New Testament for the last 52 years. Enough to confidently state that your English translations lie to you, especially in verse 14: (go check it out).
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.(Colossians 1:14 NRSV)
in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:(Colossians 1:14 RV)
in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:(Colossians 1:14 ASV)
It would seem the word "blood" was added in by later scribes.
BUT... perhaps we should start with this. At least you acknowledge that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature, no? (Or are you going to change the words in verse 15 as well?) So was Jesus born prior to every creature of not?
The Doctrine of the Trinity denies that Jesus was the "firstborn of every creature," a position that Arius held.
Ah... I'm sorry, I missed the sarcasm at first.
At this point, I don't think you are confused, but just said this to ease into your polemic. Are you sure you've not been disingenuous?
God bless,
Rhema
KingJ
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Funny you start with this line and then proceed to teach something the Holy Spirit would never teach.
Imagine thinking the Holy Spirit be against prayer, worship and praise of Jesus when ALL of Christianity EXCEPT for a few like you believe He taught them to prayer, worship and praise of Jesus!
Rhema
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Well I guess you are still learning....
One thing you ought to learn is that you can't read the scriptures. All you have are English translations. (Am I wrong?) So you have to rely upon others (your translator know-it-alls) to even read the New Testament. From my 50 years of reading Greek, I at least have the knowledge and experience to tell you that your translators lie to you. But how would you know? (Speaking of pride... claiming you know something without having the education.
)So whose brain do you use to figure out what the Scriptures say? Yours? (Again, we're back to cognitive ability and faulty reasoning that stems from minimal education.)
With regards to Erhman, I posted that video for the historical FACTS it contains, not his conclusions, which at times are in error.
But of course you shouldn't let the Facts of history mess up your little religious narrative you tell yourself at bedtime, should you.
Now your profile states, "I've always wanted the truth." So we have something in common. I would suggest you start here like I did over 50 years ago:
The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…
The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…
You can compare the actual Greek text with two popular translations and see the errors. I'll buy you one if need be. ( I mean it.)
I believe this one. How about you?
For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I (God) did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)I believe and follow the teachings of Jesus, who commanded us to pray to the Father. How about you?
After this manner therefore PRAY ye: Our Father which art in heaven, ... forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(Matthew 6:9-12 KJV)And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
(Luke 11:4 KJV)I truly don't understand someone like you who says he is still learning and yet REJECTS the clear teachings of Jesus.
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
(Luke 6:46 KJV)But I shall pray for you, that God actually guide you to READ THE WORDS that are actually written, and Obey the teachings and commands of Jesus. If you get the NT above, then you'll actually have those words.
I never said that. See? You can't even get the words that I write straight. While I don't believe in the Trinity (neither did Sir Issac Newton), I never mentioned anything about what I do believe with regards to the divinity of Jesus. So you can "say" all you'd like. You'll still be wrong.
I get it. You're offended with the teachings of Jesus. That happens a lot with both Protestants and Catholics.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
(Matthew 11:6 KJV)Now ask yourself.... did I hit a nerve?
Blessings,
Rhema
"People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
- Helen Keller
Rhema
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YES.. you ARE our resident Holy Spirit, now aren't you..... (like I said, I know what you are.)
Still Learning, you're trying to reason biblically with one of the rare persons that I've ever put under "Ignore". I do not waste time with someone who claims to know how to translate a verse, better than, and in opposition to, all of our translators into the English. When a person cannot even 'cherry pick' a translation to support their heresy, the rest of their writings are such a confused mess, I find it distracting to try and discuss the Bible seriously there.
Still Learning
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I understand why you chose to hit him with the "ignore" feature. I did the same. It didn't take me long to see him for the wolf in sheep's clothing that he is. I thank you for the heads up, though. I appreciate that you don't want to see me lured down the myriad of rabbit holes intended to get me to stop looking to the truth of God's Word.
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The thread title: What do you believe?
Now people have issue with some of the beliefs that are being posted. If this was bait in an attempt to play gotcha it was just as wrong as some of the beliefs that people are professing to have.
So, with that being said I have closed the thread.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Now people have issue with some of the beliefs that are being posted. If this was bait in an attempt to play gotcha it was just as wrong as some of the beliefs that people are professing to have.
So, with that being said I have closed the thread.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
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