What If Christian Churches Were Gone?

[golfjack]

reply

For those of you that don't want to give to a local church, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some say that tithing is not found in the NT, but there are 2 NT scriptures that say we should. Can you find them? Can someone help me here? I just can't remember right now, but know they are there. A LOCAL CHURCH CANNOT OPERATE WITHOUT MONEY.


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Gracealone]

1Cor. 16:1-2 is a good principle for giving of our money to help others, and also, where the Bible says laborers are worthy of their hire....Luke 10:7.......just a couple.

 

[Boanerges]

For those of you that don't want to give to a local church, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some say that tithing is not found in the NT, but there are 2 NT scriptures that say we should. Can you find them? Can someone help me here? I just can't remember right now, but know they are there. A LOCAL CHURCH CANNOT OPERATE WITHOUT MONEY.


Peace, Golfjack

From the Book of Acts forward (the birth of the church) tithing is never mentioned but giving is and that with a cheerful heart. In fact the only place tithing is mentioned in the New Testament is in relation to practicing Jews.

 

[SAN]

what if christian churches were gone

I am a member of a very old organised chruch I have been a beliving christian for the past 10 years attending beliving christian prayer groups and churches, I feel hurt when the newly formed churches label the the old organised church members as non belivers. As a beliving christian its my duty to be a light and example to the other members through my new life in Christ. Why only tithe's it should even more.

In christ
San

 

[Coconut]

For those of you that don't want to give to a local church, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some say that tithing is not found in the NT, but there are 2 NT scriptures that say we should. Can you find them? Can someone help me here? I just can't remember right now, but know they are there. A LOCAL CHURCH CANNOT OPERATE WITHOUT MONEY.


Peace, Golfjack

This is NT giving:

Act 4:32 Now the whole group of believers was one in heart and soul, and nobody called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything they owned.
Act 4:33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was on them all.
Act 4:34 For none of them needed anything, because all who had land or houses would sell them and bring the money received for the things sold
Act 4:35 and lay it at the apostles' feet. Then it was distributed to anyone who needed it.

Makes tithing only 10% sound like a cop-out huh...
Still want to shame those who dont give to a building fund Jack? :wink:


2Co 10:12 We would not dare put ourselves in the same class with or compare ourselves to those who recommend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves to themselves, they show how foolish they are.
2Co 10:13 We will not boast about what cannot be evaluated. Instead, we will stay within the field that God assigned us, so as to reach even you.
2Co 10:14 For it is not as though we were overstepping our limits when we came to you. We were the first to reach you with the gospel of Christ.
2Co 10:15 We are not boasting about the work done by others that cannot be evaluated. On the contrary, we cherish the hope that your faith may continue to grow and enlarge our sphere of action among you until it overflows.
2Co 10:16 Then we can preach the gospel in the regions far beyond you without boasting about things already accomplished by someone else.
2Co 10:17 "The person who boasts must boast in the Lord."
2Co 10:18 It is not the person who commends himself who is approved, but the person whom the Lord commends.

 

[jiggyfly]

For those of you that don't want to give to a local church, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some say that tithing is not found in the NT, but there are 2 NT scriptures that say we should. Can you find them? Can someone help me here? I just can't remember right now, but know they are there. A LOCAL CHURCH CANNOT OPERATE WITHOUT MONEY.


Peace, Golfjack

Well go find those scriptures and while your looking for those how about look for the scriptures that dictate how and where and when we are to gather together.:wink:

A LOCAL CHURCH CANNOT OPERATE WITHOUT MONEY.

Heard you loud and clear here GolfJack and in reference to the religious system's meeting your are absolutely right. The source is carnal because the origin is carnal.

Now take a look at this scripture.
Acts 3:6&7
6* Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7*And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.

 

[Boanerges]

I am a member of a very old organised chruch I have been a beliving christian for the past 10 years attending beliving christian prayer groups and churches, I feel hurt when the newly formed churches label the the old organised church members as non belivers. As a beliving christian its my duty to be a light and example to the other members through my new life in Christ. Why only tithe's it should even more.

In christ
San

That my friend depends on the church, it's doctrine and it's heart. Some have wandered so far from the truth of God's Word that they are not biblically recognizable. Some still burn with the fire of God's presence and some are lost in traditions long forgetting the meanings of what grandpa and grandma used to believe.
Tradition will never take the place of a living relationship with a personal Savior.

 

[Fellowservant]

Well if your visible Church burnt down by some bad luck or something, where would the members go? By members i mean the church body of believers in your congregation.

You would have too rent a place, or gather in your homes. The people who gathered in homes in the NT were also considered a Church, and they had a ministry as well. Having a building to gather the saints together, can be a visible church or a visible home, it is the same thing as long as it is run according to scripture .

With the internet now a church is even possible online, God can use anything at his disposal to spread the gospel, and i believe he does. This is not our work, it is the lords work. Paul says who can know the mind of the lord, or who can be his counselor.

I would feed my sheep, and not worry so much about buildings. Steven said to the Jews who condemned Christ, that God dwells not in temples made with hands, a few minutes later he was on the other side. I hope you know what i mean....

God bless you much, and keep feeding your sheep.

 

[Trishann]

Just wonder if these "home church" has something for the little ones too. Many people have different age children, can they bring the whole family to these "home church"? Would they have teaching for the different age group at their level of understanding? Would these "home group" houses be big enough for couple of big size family?

 

[Victory53]

That is great that your husband works a job to support his family
I don't have a home church, I don't believe in religious liturgy. Are numbers important to you?

Sorry to have taken so long to reply. Have been too busy to be on the computer!

No - we believe that God is the one who builds the church. If numbers were the priority, my husband would not mention false teaching of cults (some were offended by this and left) - he would not preach about sin and repentence (which could offend). He preaches the whole Word of God. We love it, of course, when our family grows but we know it's God that oversees the growth. It still does not negate our duty to preach the gospel to the lost and witness.

 

[Victory53]

For those of you that don't want to give to a local church, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some say that tithing is not found in the NT, but there are 2 NT scriptures that say we should. Can you find them? Can someone help me here? I just can't remember right now, but know they are there. A LOCAL CHURCH CANNOT OPERATE WITHOUT MONEY.


Peace, Golfjack

This is true. We struggle with meeting our bills as anyone does. My husband's paycheck recently rose from $125 a week to a raise of $150 and he did not ask for it. So there goes the theory of "money hungry" pastors! We have also discussed it and although we live 30 miles from the church he pastors, we would be there if the church could not afford a salary at all.

Here are a few scriptures that indicate that the church should be supported:

"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows." (Malachi 3:8-10 NASB)

"You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs. Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account. But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God. And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:15-19 NASB)

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matthew 6:19-21 NASB)

"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." (1 Timothy 5:17-18 NASB)

"And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on." (Mark 12:41-44 NASB)

Sorry it took so long to respond. Haven't been able to be on the computer!


---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

From the Book of Acts forward (the birth of the church) tithing is never mentioned but giving is and that with a cheerful heart. In fact the only place tithing is mentioned in the New Testament is in relation to practicing Jews.

Yes, and tithing = giving, but to God for the building up of His Church. The amount you tithe is up to you. In our church, we have those who have who never give. We also have those who struggle but give more. God sees your heart and intent, but the needs of the church are many and it is the will of the Lord that His people support it.

 

[Victory53]

Very good post Gracealone, ofcourse I would like to add something. ( you know me):wink: As you stated, Jesus said where two or three are gathered in His name there He will be there among them. A very important part of this scripture that is typically overlooked it "in My name". Today with most of the "christian gatherings" it seems that they are gathered in their own name or in the name of their denomination. Another thing I've noticed with many is that while Christ is prominent , He isn't preeminent in their meeting. The focus is on the flock and or the co-shepherd rather than the master Shepherd. It really becomes all about the meeting and ministering one to another and few ever minister to the Lord Himself.

And here is the point: You are very good at demeaning the visible church while promoting home gatherings. Again - do you baptize? Do you send out missionaries? I have to wonder if you actually have the full picture here?

It doesn't matter where the gathering is, but a church according to the New Testament has order and annointing by God. There are many churches that don't teach in truth and I suspect many more home "chuches" that are in even greater error, but that does not negate the fact that there are still preachers who preach truth and buildings that are a blessing to those who would not otherwise be able to find your house!

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

I am a member of a very old organised chruch I have been a beliving christian for the past 10 years attending beliving christian prayer groups and churches, I feel hurt when the newly formed churches label the the old organised church members as non belivers. As a beliving christian its my duty to be a light and example to the other members through my new life in Christ. Why only tithe's it should even more.

In christ
San

God bless you brother. The reason for this post was to get an idea of how many actually follow the Lord's commandment to assemble together (even more so as His coming draws near.) I also wanted to know how much anti-church establishment sentiments would be laid against the visible church. Where your heart is...

 

[Victory53]

Tithing is strictly an old covenant practice. Those who do teach it today, teach it in error of the scriptures. As far as assembling with other believers, how about listing some scriptures that clearly state how to assemble. I would be very interested in them :wink:

We need to be led by HolySpirit, we can already see what happens when everyone follows another man.:shock:

What does "tithing" actually mean? In the Old Testament it meant a tenth. In the New Testament it is what God puts on your heart to give. If you give nothing, it simply shows where your heart is. Take a look at the scriptures I quoted on golfJack's reply. Jesus taught the lesson in the widow's might. Paul collected money from congregations to support others in need and to fund his missionary journeys. The church and the apostle's were supported by voluntary giving. This is what we have today and the concept is still the same.

"Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers; and they have testified to your love before the church. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God. For they went out for the sake of the Name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles. Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth. I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say." (3 John 1:5-9 NASB)

"You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs. Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account. But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God." (Philippians 4:15-18 NASB)

 

[Victory53]

We (the born again children of God) are the church.

No kidding.

 

[Victory53]

That is great that your husband works a job to support his family
I don't have a home church, I don't believe in religious liturgy. Are numbers important to you?

Curious - what does "religious liturgy" mean to you? Like this?

"What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification."
(1 Corinthians 14:26 NASB)

Or this?

"Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." (1 Timothy 4:13-14 NASB)

If you are so sure that gathering in a visible church or tithing is unscriptural, you might want to refer to the scriptures.

 

[Victory53]

In Conclusion...

In summary. Thanks to all who engaged in this discussion. It was very informative. However, the forum got off of the main subject, which was “What If All the Christian Churches Were Gone” so I’ll end with this:

If the visible church in the world was no longer visible, the lost would have even less ways to find the Lord. Many of those in churches today are there because they felt the call of God in their hearts and found a local body of believers. I know someone who did just that. Distraught, they ran into a church during a service and cried out for help. They embraced him and he was saved – truly saved. He was 11 years old at the time and is 28 now. He will be ordained as a Southern Baptist minister within two years. That was my son and he prayed for my salvation after he himself was embraced by God.

In our church we have children as young as three years old, who in spite of non-believing parents, come through our doors on their own (with older siblings) to find a refuge from the world and attend Sunday school. Again, what would happen to them if the church wasn’t visible?

If the visible church was to close its doors, all we would have left is the false. Just imagine nothing but visible false churches? Remember, my post said CHRISTIAN churches. Where would the desperate go for help? Surely not someone’s house! Let’s get real for a moment. The difficulties for some would be terrible. God has always maintained a presence in this world but what if…what if…

Christian based groups have done more good in this world in the name of Christ than any others. If they were gone, who would feed the hungry on a massive scale? Who would fight for civic morality? Who would be able to hold back complete depravity in our society if not for those who have banded together to fight it? I’m not saying home churches are wrong unless they don’t follow SCRIPTURAL guidelines. I don't know of any that actually make a visible difference in this world. These “churches” are not churches as God ordained, but bible studies that don’t and cannot administer baptism, nor are they willing to support missionaries – a New Testament teaching. They aren't "organized" enough to do much of anything other than minister to a select few! There may be exceptions, but I don't know about them. In places where the church must hide, such as China, they would love to have the visible church!

In truth, to denigrate the visible church is to attack God’s people unjustly. You become the accuser of the brethren apart from the brethren. I am well aware that the church is made up of true believers, but the visible, local body of believers is a mixture of wheat and tares that must grow together until the Lord reveals the heart. This goes for home churches or visible, but the visible, orderly church is found all over the New Testament. God gave directions to the churches – see the book of Revelation!

Christians have always been hated for resisting evil. This has been the restraining force in the world since the first century. Only when persecution was the greatest was the visible church forced to go into hiding and yet we stood. The blood of the martyrs testifies that we continued to witness and spread the word around the world.

I only hope that those who don’t attend any church don’t continue to see us through the eyes of the world. We have enough persecution and we don’t need any more slander from those who claim to be Christian but don’t wish to participate with us in fellowship.

In conclusion – the building is not the church, but it is certainly the vehicle God uses to bring His children together to worship Him, even amidst the criticism. I fear that those who are critical of the organized church will get their wish some day. What a world THAT will be! God help us all.

 

[jiggyfly]

In conclusion – the building is not the church, but it is certainly the vehicle God uses to bring His children together to worship Him, even amidst the criticism. I fear that those who are critical of the organized church will get their wish some day. What a world THAT will be! God help us all.[/COLOR][/FONT]

Victory53 you and your post are understood. Some of us still disagree with your opinion, thats all and so do the scriptures. God doesn't live or reside in your church building nor any other buiding made with human hands. I have to be honest here, the thing you fear is my hope but carnal religious behavior won't disappear without going through the fire, then and only then will it be consumed.

I don't want you to feel attacked here at TJ but I do want you to be challenged with your religious paradigm. Why don't we try and start anew, and instead of starting threads that defend religious behavior and practices let's talk Jesus i.e. Truth, Life and Spirit.

 

[Coconut]

This is not our work, it is the lords work. Paul says who can know the mind of the lord, or who can be his counselor.

amen!

Take away mans buildings, and the Lord is still abundantly capable of doing HIS work.

ESV Act 2:47 Praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Act 17:28 For "'In Him we live and move and have our being';

 

[Gracealone]

jiggy, for goodness sake, stop!

Just because you dont want to fellowship in a established church building, where many of the body of Christ worship, and fellowship, doesn't give you the right to attack everyone else that does!

Maybe yours is in a home where two,or three gather, thats Cool, but I gather in a fellowship that has 1200, or better, and we love the Lord, are taught the word, love each other, and many through out the year are saved.
Souls coming to the Lord is the fruit the Lord desires, not attitudes, or disrespect for others.
Love you guy, but this is too much!

Victory 53, sorry, Just keep your eyes,and heart on Jesus. He keeps score, and will be your truth ,your way, and your life.

I would love to fellowship with you, in your church, and know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ would be there, and glorified.

Come join us sometime jiggy, you may see Jesus still dwells with us too. We would love to have you with us.:friends:

 

[Gracealone]

From the Book of Acts forward (the birth of the church) tithing is never mentioned but giving is and that with a cheerful heart. In fact the only place tithing is mentioned in the New Testament is in relation to practicing Jews.

Boanerges, I agree, wasn't tithing given to the Jew's alone? and the law too? :magnify: