What if you die tonight?

[Shaolin]

How do you explain salvation for those who were never baptized.

Remember Gods word is eternal

I believe I covered that in my post. A person can genuinely get saved if they are not baptized if the person that leads them to Christ is ignorant of Scripture or prone to false teachings, and does not tell the person he is witnessing to that baptism is required - only because God is merciful. But, when that person hears that baptism is necessary - JUST as Scripture teaches - and does not receive baptism into Christ, then he has refused to enter Christ. And salvation is ONLY found in Christ...if you are not in Christ, then you are not saved; no matter what you believe:

Romans 6:3*
Or are you ignorant of the fact that those of us who were baptized through immersion in water into Christ Jesus, were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27*
because however many of you who were baptized into Christ, have entered Christ.

Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added to the church that day about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 18:24-26
Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Acts 19:1-6
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I Peter 3:21
Which also is now a type for you of deliverance through baptism, not the washing of the flesh, but of a right conscience of integrity in pledging yourself into God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

AGAIN...when we take the WHOLE Word of God, and not just verses here and there that seem to support our personal theology, Scripture teaches that unless one receives water baptism, he will not make it to heaven. That is because the NT Scriptures are NOT a "testament," they are covenant documents. We enter into the New Covenant of God in Christ today through faith, repentance, and water baptism (again, just as Scripture teaches), and if you are not in covenant relationship with God in Christ, then you are not saved, no matter what you believe.

Those passages like Acts 16:31 and others which only mention faith as a prerequisite to salvation, are true in the intent, but not complete statements on how to get saved. Again...we must take the WHOLE Word of God on the subject of how one gets saved, not cherry pick the Scriptures in order to support our own brand of false teachings. When we take all of the over 300 passages in Scripture that address salvtion, and not just 6 like calvinists do, then we come to the truth of the matter, which is faith, repentance, and water baptism into Christ. Baptism in the new covenant equates to the ceremonial rite of entrance into the old covenant through circumcision. In case you have not noticed, from cover to cover, God is big on ceremonial rites, and He is the one who instituted covenants from the very beginning.

We should always take what Scripture teaches in full over and above what faulty, biased, imperfect men say and teach...because we cannot get saved, nor make it to heaven, by listening to, defending, or walking in false teachings. We can only get saved and make it to heaven by listening to the Truth.

And besides...as I also said in the post - if you got saved, and got baptized also, but fail to engage God in personal relationship in prayer and worship and obedience, then you got saved for nothing and will still end up in eternal fire. Salvation is not the end of the issue like false teachers claim...it is only a means to qualify you to be able to enter into God's presence, and that for relationship.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What if you die tonight

Tonight would be fine -

 

[Bill]

can you be more specific?

There are a number of examples.

An example would be Jesus talking about The Last Judgement talking about the virtuous. Based on the reading they didn't even know who Jesus was. Yet Jesus stated that when you did all those virtuous things for others that they did it for him as well

Jesus never states that they had to be baptized to

Now these other two people that I can think of off the top of my head you can make excuses for being Enoch and Elijah. As it was somewhat of a new teaching.

There is a deeper teaching that we can get into but I don't think it would be very relevant here in this chat as I am afraid it would go over people's heads too much too much

 

[Bill]

I believe I covered that in my post. A person can genuinely get saved if they are not baptized if the person that leads them to Christ is ignorant of Scripture or prone to false teachings, and does not tell the person he is witnessing to that baptism is required - only because God is merciful. But, when that person hears that baptism is necessary - JUST as Scripture teaches - and does not receive baptism into Christ, then he has refused to enter Christ. And salvation is ONLY found in Christ...if you are not in Christ, then you are not saved; no matter what you believe:

Romans 6:3*
Or are you ignorant of the fact that those of us who were baptized through immersion in water into Christ Jesus, were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27*
because however many of you who were baptized into Christ, have entered Christ.

Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added to the church that day about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 18:24-26
Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Acts 19:1-6
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I Peter 3:21
Which also is now a type for you of deliverance through baptism, not the washing of the flesh, but of a right conscience of integrity in pledging yourself into God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

AGAIN...when we take the WHOLE Word of God, and not just verses here and there that seem to support our personal theology, Scripture teaches that unless one receives water baptism, he will not make it to heaven. That is because the NT Scriptures are NOT a "testament," they are covenant documents. We enter into the New Covenant of God in Christ today through faith, repentance, and water baptism (again, just as Scripture teaches), and if you are not in covenant relationship with God in Christ, then you are not saved, no matter what you believe.

Those passages like Acts 16:31 and others which only mention faith as a prerequisite to salvation, are true in the intent, but not complete statements on how to get saved. Again...we must take the WHOLE Word of God on the subject of how one gets saved, not cherry pick the Scriptures in order to support our own brand of false teachings. When we take all of the over 300 passages in Scripture that address salvtion, and not just 6 like calvinists do, then we come to the truth of the matter, which is faith, repentance, and water baptism into Christ. Baptism in the new covenant equates to the ceremonial rite of entrance into the old covenant through circumcision. In case you have not noticed, from cover to cover, God is big on ceremonial rites, and He is the one who instituted covenants from the very beginning.

We should always take what Scripture teaches in full over and above what faulty, biased, imperfect men say and teach...because we cannot get saved, nor make it to heaven, by listening to, defending, or walking in false teachings. We can only get saved and make it to heaven by listening to the Truth.

And besides...as I also said in the post - if you got saved, and got baptized also, but fail to engage God in personal relationship in prayer and worship and obedience, then you got saved for nothing and will still end up in eternal fire. Salvation is not the end of the issue like false teachers claim...it is only a means to qualify you to be able to enter into God's presence, and that for relationship.

The Holy Spirit jumped in me when i read your words " the whole Word of God "

Very good , excellent

Only two things that come to mind, yet both are extreemly important.

1 love .

2 it is in the spirit of the mind of God that He wants us to give of ourselves. Be Holy as God is Holy.

( i am not talking of the Holy Spirit, but in the Love and Grace of the Most High

 

[Garee]

Your understanding of Scripture is flawed. When we take Scripture as a whole, and study the requirements for getting saved topically like we are supposed to do, water baptism is an integral part of the deal. Those who CANNOT receive baptism, like the thief on the cross, God understands and does not hold that fact against them - if He did, then He would not be just.

According to Scripture, water baptism is God's ordained ceremonial rite of entrance into Christ, the living new covenant. If you don't receive water baptism into Christ, then your 'salvation' is in name only, not fact. Even a man who might get saved out in the desert, who has no water to receive baptism - God will accept him; but when he comes to a body of water large enough to get baptized, if he declines, then his standing with God becomes questioned.

It is the same with you...if you were not taught the Truth about baptism, but got saved years ago...and then hear that it is mandatory but because of flawed biased belief in false teachings, and refuse to get baptized into Christ...then according to Scripture you have refused the truth on the subject and your 'salvation' slips through your fingers.

This is why false doctrine and false teaching are hated by God and the Truth.

Blessings

The requirement for being saved is believing God as he gives us his mighty faith as a labor of his love to make it all possible in the end of the matter ..

Water baptism has its foundation in the old testament as a ceremonial law that is also applied to the new testament kingdom of priest, all believers that desire to make a show are eligible .

As a ceremonial law it is not a self edifying to the believer but a gospel sign to the world the need of a savior . When Aarons two sons the first to receive it . . they mixed what is called strange fire as a personal touch in a hope of glorying their own flesh .There fleshly bodies were consumed by false pride but the ceremonial clothing not a hint of smoke .

No such doctrine as a sign gift .I did it .Look at me it proves it .

We continue to walk by faith edifying God not seen Spiritual unseen gift yes. they are recorded .

Final words spoken by the Lord. .I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. Not they will be glorified rather than edifying our God alone

Leviticus 10:1-3 King James Version And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the Lord spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

 

[Sue D.]

False doctrine would be that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and that salvation comes through something other than Jesus Christ. I was told that it's possible that whomever led me to the lord did not have complete enough understanding of complete word of God. There are two passages that sum up what is needed to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15 : 1-3 sums it up. As does Romans 10 : 9-10


Baptism is important, yes, but not an essential part of. No one has led me astray. I know when the Holy Spirit came to indwell me and He has never left.

 

[Bill]

False doctrine would be that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and that salvation comes through something other than Jesus Christ. I was told that it's possible that whomever led me to the lord did not have complete enough understanding of complete word of God. There are two passages that sum up what is needed to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15 : 1-3 sums it up. As does Romans 10 : 9-10


Baptism is important, yes, but not an essential part of. No one has led me astray. I know when the Holy Spirit came to indwell me and He has never left.

That i know to be true, that you do have the Holy Spirit within.

The problem that takes place with many, isnt that theu have the Holy Spirit, it is that theu only accept certain things God shows them, unwilling to break the mold ingrained into thier minds.

A good example of that is the unforgiveness of our brothers and sisters, the catholics and the same goes for the catholics to protestants.

If you can not forgive, and cannot find love in your hearts, you will never reach heaven, no matter how much faith you think you have

 

[Sue D.]

God gives us this love for others. The Holy Spirit will give a person a love for others. Caring for them in a Godly way.

 

[Bill]

God gives us this love for others. The Holy Spirit will give a person a love for others. Caring for them in a Godly way.

Yes but it is us who have to love . God teaches us faith, but it is we who need to grow in it.

God is Love, and shares it with us freely , he expects no less of us

 

[Sue D.]

Yes but it is us who have to love . God teaches us faith, but it is we who need to grow in it.

God is Love, and shares it with us freely , he expects no less of us

Look

 

[Sue D.]

We love Him because He first loved us.

 

[Garee]

That i know to be true, that you do have the Holy Spirit within.

The problem that takes place with many, isnt that theu have the Holy Spirit, it is that theu only accept certain things God shows them, unwilling to break the mold ingrained into thier minds.

A good example of that is the unforgiveness of our brothers and sisters, the catholics and the same goes for the catholics to protestants.

If you can not forgive, and cannot find love in your hearts, you will never reach heaven, no matter how much faith you think you have

The water baptism as a ceremonial law or shadow of the unseen has its foundation in the Old testament it caries on in a kingdom of priests in the new testament ...

The Holy Spirt is represented by water and blood throughout the Bible .( over 25 directly)


Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

God who dwells in mankind is not literal water and blood.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one . . . (one Spirit not one unit of water and Blood ) God is Spirit he has no flesh and blood.

The two witnesses of God's Holy Spirit . . .blood and water = faith

Exodus 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

 

[Sue D.]

Baptism by immersion is following the example in Matthew 28: 19-20
It is a person's public testimony that he has already made the decision in his heart as to what Jesus Christ did on the cross. A person is being buried in to Christ and rising out of the water to live a "new life" in Christ.

 

[Rhema]

False doctrine would be that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and that salvation comes through something other than Jesus Christ. I was told that it's possible that whomever led me to the lord did not have complete enough understanding of complete word of God.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

(Matthew 16:15-17 KJV)​

Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, God's word teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that there is no other name given by which a person is saved.

 

[Garee]

Baptism by immersion is following the example in Matthew 28: 19-20
It is a person's public testimony that he has already made the decision in his heart as to what Jesus Christ did on the cross. A person is being buried in to Christ and rising out of the water to live a "new life" in Christ.

Mathew 28: 18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Verse 18 All power (not H20) is given unto me in heaven and in earth. We know that power is the unseen Holy Spirit not seen represented by water. that falls like rain. The Holy Spirit is not water or rain.

Washing them in the name or power of God not seen . Exposing them to the gospel as it is written. The doctrines that fall like rain.

Same water of the word Husbands are to wash their Wife with, just as we daily do receive the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit.. A picture of Christ washing his bride the whole church

Water baptism has its foundation in the old testament as a ceremonial law ,It is never used in self-edifying oneself as proof a person has received the Holt Spirit . The same water baptism exists today whenever ever a priest from the new kingdom of priest desires to show to the world his hope of salvation.

When Aarons two sons desired to take on the ceremonially law they added a little what is called strange fire. (A unauthorized personal touch) that came from self-pride , they were destroyed for using it in personal matters .it was not designed to reflect the glory of their own flesh but the unseen glory of faith.

 

[Bill]

The water baptism as a ceremonial law or shadow of the unseen has its foundation in the Old testament it caries on in a kingdom of priests in the new testament ...

The Holy Spirt is represented by water and blood throughout the Bible .( over 25 directly)


Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

God who dwells in mankind is not literal water and blood.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one . . . (one Spirit not one unit of water and Blood ) God is Spirit he has no flesh and blood.

The two witnesses of God's Holy Spirit . . .blood and water = faith

Exodus 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Never jump to conclusions when talking about God.

How do you know that God is not the water nor the blood.

We have seen time and again where the litteral and spiritual translation are both God present.

Jesus says , your sins are forgiven = spiritual . Then when challenged , the healing takes place = physical.

Jesus is both the spiritual and physical at the same time. To refer to God then as only spirit, you are forgetting " the Father and I are One "

 

[Shaolin]

There are a number of examples.

An example would be Jesus talking about The Last Judgement talking about the virtuous. Based on the reading they didn't even know who Jesus was. Yet Jesus stated that when you did all those virtuous things for others that they did it for him as well

Actually, that is not true. Here is what the text states...

Matthew 25:37-39
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'

Their reply does not give any such idea that they didn't know who Jesus was, it says that they didn't understand that when they loved on others they were also loving on Him. That is a far cry from "they didn't even know who Jesus was." If they didn't know Him, then He would have told them, "I never knew you, depart from Me..."

Jesus never states that they had to be baptized to

It amazes me how many people here do not understand how to study Scripture. Jesus didn't have to say anything about baptism in this passage when it is addressed in other passages. When you don't study a subject topically, then you will never get the whole accurate and complete truth on any Biblical subject.

 

[Shaolin]

The Holy Spirit jumped in me when i read your words " the whole Word of God "

Very good , excellent

Only two things that come to mind, yet both are extreemly important.

1 love .

2 it is in the spirit of the mind of God that He wants us to give of ourselves. Be Holy as God is Holy.

( i am not talking of the Holy Spirit, but in the Love and Grace of the Most High

More likely than not, that was your liver jumping...the Holy Spirit was not taken by surprise by what I stated, so it wouldn't make Him jump...

 

[Shaolin]

False doctrine would be that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and that salvation comes through something other than Jesus Christ.

Again, your understanding is very flawed...there are false doctrines on salvation, eternal life, redemption, baptism, eternal security, the reason you are here, the reason God saves people, original sin, and I could go on and on. If you think those two subjects are the only ones that can be false doctrine, you are sadly mistaken.

I was told that it's possible that whomever led me to the lord did not have complete enough understanding of complete word of God.

This is not only possible, but more than half of the church left do not have a complete understanding of God's Word - simply because they were never taught how to accurately read and study God's Word.

There are two passages that sum up what is needed to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15 : 1-3 sums it up. As does Romans 10 : 9-10

This is another fault in your understanding...there is not one passage in Scripture that "sums up" what is needed to be saved. Evidently, you have never been taught how to read and study Scripture...

1 Corinthians 15:1-3
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

There is nothing in this passage that "sums up" salvation...perhaps you meant some other passage...


Romans 10:9-10
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


Close, but no cigar here either...this passage does not mention repentance or baptism, only faith. You are taking one piece of a 300 piece jig saw puzzle, setting it on the table, and exclaiming what a beautiful picture that one piece makes...I will leave it to you to decide how sane that is...

Baptism is important, yes, but not an essential part of. No one has led me astray. I know when the Holy Spirit came to indwell me and He has never left.

Out of your own mouth here, you say that you were led astray...because baptism is not just important, without entering Christ through water baptism you will never enter into heaven...


John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (baptism) and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Contrary to false reformed theology, "born of water" here means water baptism...and without it, even if you did "get saved" years ago, you will not enter into the kingdom of God. Its that simple, and I gave the passages that tell you as such earlier. When you believe men over what the Word of God states, plainly, then you are only allowing your bias to blind you to Scriptural truth.