What Is HELL ?

[Charlie24]

You're correct. It's not reasonable if we look at Scripture Biblically. But most don't do that. Most hold to church doctrine. In this case Penal Atonement which says that Christ's death satisfied the wrath if God. In that scenario my question makes perfect sense.

Your question, "If eternal torment is the punishment for sins, who paid it? Jesus didn't suffer eternal torment" can only be answered by the individual who fails to obey Christ' command "you must be born again."

"You must be born again" was not a suggestion, it was a commandment in order to escape eternal separation from God in eternal torment.

 

[Butch5]

Your question, "If eternal torment is the punishment for sins, who paid it? Jesus didn't suffer eternal torment" can only be answered by the individual who fails to obey Christ' command "you must be born again."

"You must be born again" was not a suggestion, it was a commandment in order to escape eternal separation from God in eternal torment.

Huh? The argument is that Christ paid the price for the believer, not the unbeliever. If Christ died for the sins of the believer, and the penalty is eternal torment. Who paid the penalty? It wasn't Jesus because He didn't suffer eternal torment.

The question shows that eternal torment is not what the Bible teaches. There is no answer.

 

[Charlie24]

Huh? The argument is that Christ paid the price for the believer, not the unbeliever. If Christ died for the sins of the believer, and the penalty is eternal torment. Who paid the penalty? It wasn't Jesus because He didn't suffer eternal torment.

The question shows that eternal torment is not what the Bible teaches. There is no answer.

When you can show me where they get out of the lake of fire, then we can agree.

Until then we disagree.

 

[Butch5]

When you can show me where they get out of the lake of fire, then we can agree.

Until then we disagree.

They don't. They burn up.

 

[Charlie24]

They don't. They burn up.

Oh I see. You don't believe the spirit and soul of man is eternal in the lake of fire. We disagree again.

Daniel 12:2

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

If you believe that the spirit and soul of the saved live forever in a glorified body, then so does the spirit and soul of the lost live forever in the same indestructible body.

There are 2 resurrections in Revelation separated by 1000 years. Those of the second resurrection are cast into the lake of fire with indestructible bodies that will live in the lake of fire forever.

 

[Butch5]

Oh I see. You don't believe the spirit and soul of man is eternal in the lake of fire. We disagree again.

Daniel 12:2

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

If you believe that the spirit and soul of the saved live forever in a glorified body, then so does the spirit and soul of the lost live forever in the same indestructible body.

There are 2 resurrections in Revelation separated by 1000 years. Those of the second resurrection are cast into the lake of fire with indestructible bodies that will live in the lake of fire forever.

That's the disagreement. I don't believe in Platonic Dualism. Platonic Dualism says that man is a soul/spirit that lives on after the body dies. The Bible says no such thing.

The flip side of that is that what you've said requires that the wicked receive eternal life. Again, where do the Scriputres promise eternal life to the unbeliever? Also, if man has an immortal soul, why did God promise eternal life to those who believe? What's the point if they already have eternal life?

We see clearly in Scriputre what the contrast to eternal life is. It is death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

In both of these passages we see the contrast of eternal life and in both it's death.

There's nothing here about eternal torment. The righteous get life and the wicked get death.

 

[Butch5]

Some food for thought. If we remove the word aion from the equation there is no support for eternal torment. That means this whole doctrine is based on a mistranslation of one word.

 

[Charlie24]

That's the disagreement. I don't believe in Platonic Dualism. Platonic Dualism says that man is a soul/spirit that lives on after the body dies. The Bible says no such thing.

The flip side of that is that what you've said requires that the wicked receive eternal life. Again, where do the Scriputres promise eternal life to the unbeliever? Also, if man has an immortal soul, why did God promise eternal life to those who believe? What's the point if they already have eternal life?

We see clearly in Scriputre what the contrast to eternal life is. It is death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

In both of these passages we see the contrast of eternal life and in both it's death.

There's nothing here about eternal torment. The righteous get life and the wicked get death.

Come on Butch, you know that concept is not what's found in Scripture. You know it as well as I.

God promises eternal life in body, soul, and spirit. The body, soul, and spirit of the unsaved in also eternal, but it's not life with God, it's life without God.

The saved have been given eternal life, the unsaved have been given eternal death.

Not a death to the point of non-existence, but a death as opposed to life with God.

Daniel 12:2 is all you need to understand this, if you will understand it.

 

[Butch5]

Come on Butch, you know that concept is not what's found in Scripture. You know it as well as I.

God promises eternal life in body, soul, and spirit. The body, soul, and spirit of the unsaved in also eternal, but it's not life with God, it's life without God.

Then show where God promises eternal life to the wicked.

He doesn't. Man isn't immortal, that's clear in Scripture. The idea that man is immortal is Platonic Dualsim. It's not Scripture

The saved have been given eternal life, the unsaved have been given eternal death.

How are dead people tortured?

Not a death to the point of non-existence, but a death as opposed to life with God.

Youre redining Scriputre to fit your beliefs. Death is death. It’s not life.

Daniel 12:2 is all you need to understand this, if you will understand it.

We've been over olam and aion many time already. They don't mean everlasting. Besides, Daniel says contempt, not torment.

 

[Charlie24]

Then show where God promises eternal life to the wicked.

He doesn't. Man isn't immortal, that's clear in Scripture. The idea that man is immortal is Platonic Dualsim. It's not Scripture

How are dead people tortured?

Youre redining Scriputre to fit your beliefs. Death is death. It’s not life.

We've been over olam and aion many time already. They don't mean everlasting. Besides, Daniel says contempt, not torment.

Ok, you choose to not understand. That's between you and God.

Most everyone here is going to disagree with you.

This is not Burger King but can still have it your way!

 

[Butch5]

Ok, you choose to not understand. That's between you and God.

Most everyone here is going to disagree with you.

This is not Burger King but can still have it your way!

It's not that I don't understand. It's that I refuse to believe contradictions, fallacies, and things that are flatly refuted by Scripture.

If man had an immortal soul you'd be able to show me from the Bible. If God gave eternal life to unbelievers you'd be able to show me from Scriputre. That no one has been able to establish these shows clearly that they are not Scriptural concepts.

I don't have to redefine words to make my beliefs align with what the Scriputres say. When John speaks of the second death, it's just that dying a second time. I don't have somehow redefine the word death to mean life. You guys are defining death with it's opposite meaning, life. That's nonsensical. Why do we even need Scriputre if everyone can just make up words as they go?

 

[Charlie24]

It's not that I don't understand. It's that I refuse to believe contradictions, fallacies, and things that are flatly refuted by Scripture.

If man had an immortal soul you'd be able to show me from the Bible. If God gave eternal life to unbelievers you'd be able to show me from Scriputre. That no one has been able to establish these shows clearly that they are not Scriptural concepts.

I don't have to redefine words to make my beliefs align with what the Scriputres say. When John speaks of the second death, it's just that dying a second time. I don't have somehow redefine the word death to mean life. You guys are defining death with it's opposite meaning, life. That's nonsensical. Why do we even need Scriputre if everyone can just make up words as they go?

Paul said to the Church, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The physical body is mortal and goes to the grave.

The soul and spirit are immortal and go to be with the Lord. If you are saved.

Christ said in Matt. 25:46, "The wicked shall go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The soul and spirit of man whether saved or lost will live forever into eternity.

A child can understand this, but you can't?

 

[Butch5]

Paul said to the Church, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The physical body is mortal and goes to the grave.

The soul and spirit are immortal and go to be with the Lord. If you are saved.

Christ said in Matt. 25:46, "The wicked shall go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The soul and spirit of man whether saved or lost will live forever into eternity.

A child can understand this, but you can't?

The word "is" is not in Paul's statement. He's not equating the two. He's stating his desire. That is to absent fron the Christians, the body of Christ, and to be present with the Lord.

If you look at that passage in context you'll see that Paul is actually arguing against the very concept that your promoting, that is leaving his body. As I said, that is Dualism and it is what the Greeks believed. Paul is addressing Greek Christians in the church at Corinth who were denying the resurrection. They believed, as you're claiming, that they would live on after death in some immaterial form. In the early part of chapter 5 Paul says he doesn't want to be found naked. He equates the Greeks idea of leaving the body with being naked, without a body. He states that he doesn't want that.
Notice, his desire is to have immortality put on over his mortality.

Also note in that passage that Paul claims to mortal, not immortal.

The soul is intrinsically tied to the body thus it is not immortal. The spirit is a part of God, not man

And yet you've yet to show a single passage ofScripture that says the wicked get eternal life. Your simply making an unsubstantiated claim.

We've been through aion quite a few times. It doesn't mean eternal. You're arguing based on a mistranslated word.

But, even if the word was correct, it still wouldn't prove the argument you're making. The punishment is death. So, if it meant eternal it would simply mean their death was eternal. Eternal death is not someone being alive forever and tortured. Being alive is the exact opposite of death.

 

[Charlie24]

The word "is" is not in Paul's statement. He's not equating the two. He's stating his desire. That is to absent fron the Christians, the body of Christ, and to be present with the Lord.

If you look at that passage in context you'll see that Paul is actually arguing against the very concept that your promoting, that is leaving his body. As I said, that is Dualism and it is what the Greeks believed. Paul is addressing Greek Christians in the church at Corinth who were denying the resurrection. They believed, as you're claiming, that they would live on after death in some immaterial form. In the early part of chapter 5 Paul says he doesn't want to be found naked. He equates the Greeks idea of leaving the body with being naked, without a body. He states that he doesn't want that.
Notice, his desire is to have immortality put on over his mortality.

Also note in that passage that Paul claims to mortal, not immortal.

The soul is intrinsically tied to the body thus it is not immortal. The spirit is a part of God, not man

And yet you've yet to show a single passage ofScripture that says the wicked get eternal life. Your simply making an unsubstantiated claim.

We've been through aion quite a few times. It doesn't mean eternal. You're arguing based on a mistranslated word.

But, even if the word was correct, it still wouldn't prove the argument you're making. The punishment is death. So, if it meant eternal it would simply mean their death was eternal. Eternal death is not someone being alive forever and tortured. Being alive is the exact opposite of death.

This is like arguing with a 5 year old, why he can't have candy for supper.

I'm finished with this nonsense.

 

[Butch5]

This is like arguing with a 5 year old, why he can't have candy for supper.

I'm finished with this nonsense.

This is fallacious. You've claimed that man is immortal. Show proof. You can't just claim something and expect people believe it because you said so. Show me where man is immortal.

 

[Charlie24]

This is fallacious. You've claimed that man is immortal. Show proof. You can't just claim something and expect people believe it because you said so. Show me where man is immortal.

You have much to learn about Scripture. Unfortunately, no one can show you anything.

All I can do is pray for you that the Lord will make it clear for you.

 

[Butch5]

You have much to learn about Scripture. Unfortunately, no one can show you anything.

All I can do is pray for you that the Lord will make it clear for you.

Sure you can! I'm asking you to. Show me where man is immortal.

 

[B-A-C]

Also note in that passage that Paul claims to mortal, not immortal.

I actually agree with this statement, none of us are immortal quite yet.

Mark 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30; who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

No humans have ascended to heaven, not yet.. ( there could be a few notable exceptions, Elijah, Enoch, Jesus )

Prov 30:4; Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Yes, I am familiar with this verse.

2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

It seems to conflict with the verses above, but the obvious answer to reconcile these is... when are we absent from the body?

1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Right now, only Jesus has eternal life.... however that will change in the future. Right now, no one has ascended to heaven nor can see Jesus there.

 

[Butch5]

I actually agree with this statement, none of us are immortal quite yet.

Mark 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30; who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

No humans have ascended to heaven, not yet.. ( there could be a few notable exceptions, Elijah, Enoch, Jesus )

Prov 30:4; Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Yes, I am familiar with this verse.

2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

It seems to conflict with the verses above, but the obvious answer to reconcile these is... when are we absent from the body?

1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Right now, only Jesus has eternal life.... however that will change in the future. Right now, no one has ascended to heaven nor can see Jesus there.

I agree. If man is mortal then the only way he can live on after death is if God gives him life. That would mean that if the wicked suffer eternally God has to give them eternal life.

 

[B-A-C]

I agree. If man is mortal then the only way he can live on after death is if God gives him life. That would mean that if the wicked suffer eternally God has to give them eternal life.

Before we get to that point, we have to at least realize everyone gets resurrected, even the unsaved.
Everyone comes back to life...

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

How are "the dead" .. "standing" up if they are dead?

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,