What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[Bill]

This is one in the same.
God chose us
Christ made us worthy



Let's add 2:7 - 10 as well

6 kjv
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 kjv
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 kjv
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 kjv
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

You mentioned using a verse as a stand alone verse.
Funny how that worked out.

KJ
I am not concerned with Old Covenant ways. I live under the New Covenant between God and Man.

If you wish to categorise the levels of sin as not that bad to very bad that is your choice.

I am for one not going to approach the Father and tell Him this one is not that bad but the one Joe did, oh that's bad.



Death is death.
It is appointed for man to die one death . That's the natural death.
However there is a second death which is separation from the Father and that ultamently leaves one he'll bound.

Repentance will cover any sin.
Sin does not get you to hell.
The worse sinner does not go to hell for his sins BUT REJECTING CHRIST is what gets you into hell.

Any way I have said all I care to say on this. I can not see any profit on debating the pecking order of sin.

Have a great week
Blessings to you

Absolutely correct. It is by rejecting Christ that puts us in hell.

We separate ourselves from God by way of sin. And return fully to Him by way of repentance.

 

[Bill]

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


then there is sin that keeps you from heaven

1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

I think i also forgot to mention, i stand before God daily to be cleansed of my sins. I think of it as a spiritual sponge bath.

 

[Bill]

How long will it be before you have a REAL turn from sin?
You know, where you decide you will never sin again?

When God is ready for me to finish the work He has begun in me.

 

[KingJ]

This is one in the same.
God chose us
Christ made us worthy

You have just defined Calvinism / Partiality by God. God chooses, makes those chosen worthy = Rom 9:15 = Calvinism.

Let's add 2:7 - 10 as well

6 kjv
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 kjv
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 kjv
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 kjv
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


You mentioned using a verse as a stand alone verse.
Funny how that worked out

.

Paul made a statement and then gave general examples. We cannot read it as ''do good = inherit eternal life''. You are reading these verses with tunnel vision off of Rom 6:23.

I don't disagree that a person who with ''patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality'' inherits eternal life.

We just need to add the fact that there are levels in heaven Matt 20:21-23. Different rewards according to what we did. The fact that the righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. The fact that in the OT nobody doing 'good' could inherit eternal life. Jesus grafting us in is a separate subject from scales of righteousness!! Likewise sin.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

If God gives a murderer the same punishment as someone who stole candy from the candy store....God is a respecter of persons.

Imagine a judge saying to you ''Wired for fishing, you have thought about stealing that car. You will get 75 years in prison in maximum security. The same as that serial killer over there''.

KJ
I am not concerned with Old Covenant ways. I live under the New Covenant between God and Man.

Then why do believe in blessings, curses and promises? You are OT on prosperity but not on degrees of sin?

Don't you understand that both those views are probably the worst manner of interpreting scripture? The flesh loves the idea of holding God to gunpoint on promises as the Jews did. The flesh loves the idea that Jesus has taken away the curses so we can just hold God to the promises. Likewise the flesh loves the idea of not being harshly disciplined for its more grievous sins. Going to church and remaining a mortal sinner, because everyone is a sinner.

If you wish to categorise the levels of sin as not that bad to very bad that is your choice.

I am for one not going to approach the Father and tell Him this one is not that bad but the one Joe did, oh that's bad.

Why? God gave us a brain to discern all things. He certainly expects it of a Christian 1 Cor 2:15.

Death is death.
It is appointed for man to die one death . That's the natural death.
However there is a second death which is separation from the Father and that ultamently leaves one he'll bound.

In the OT, David was in death with Goliath. David was in Abrahams bosom. Goliath was not. All were outside of God's presence because Jesus, the only perfect sacrifice, had not yet been to the cross.

I am trying to get you to understand that we are all sinners who deserve death. But God sees a difference between a sinner and a sinner. If He didn't, none of us would be heaven bound, as, as you quoted Rom 2:11, God is no respecter of persons.

Repentance will cover any sin.
Sin does not get you to hell.
The worse sinner does not go to hell for his sins BUT REJECTING CHRIST is what gets you into hell.

Yes agreed. But again, this is a separate subject to degrees of sin and righteousness.

Any way I have said all I care to say on this. I can not see any profit on debating the pecking order of sin.

There should be no debate. It should be Christian common sense. It is new age teaching that wants to push all sin = sin. I have explained why. The reality of this should prompt us to further study / discuss / debate.

 

[KingJ]

Absolutely correct. It is by rejecting Christ that puts us in hell.

We separate ourselves from God by way of sin. And return fully to Him by way of repentance.

I am just curious. What would you say it takes to reject Christ? / What is rejecting Christ?

 

[KingJ]

Sin is also done of one's free will.

Yes, it is.

So when a child of yours decides to sin, do you throw him out?

 

[At Peace]

That verse is true and an excellent stand alone verse. But you are misusing it.
I have two points to make on why:
1. Being chosen to be in God's presence VS being worthy of being in God's presence are two completely different issues. This verse speaks to the latter. I have asked you to debunk levels of sin which speaks to the former.

Your post shows that you think the "unworthy" will be chosen to be in God's presence.
What determines one's unworthiness?
One sin? Five? twenty five?
The bible says those who commit "A" sin are not born of God. (1 John 3:8-10)

Perhaps you can post a verse where anyone is "chosen" to be in God's presence, unworthily?

If we look at God in the OT. We see punishments for sins among the Jews differing between stoned to death, excommunication and warnings among others.
If we look at God in the NT / Jesus. Many who believe sin is sin quote Jesus In Matt 5:28 ''thought - adultery''. But miss Matt 5:32 ''actual adultery = grounds for divorce''.

The end result of sin in either Testament is separation from God.
In the OT, men offered an appropriate sacrifice and walked away atoned for.
In the NT sinners can turn from sin forever, be washed with the blood of Christ in baptism in Jesus' name, and walk in the light till death.

If we look at Paul's teaching in the NT. We see 1 Cor 5 starting off with '''there is a sinner here whose sin is so terrible that not even the unsaved do it''.

The punishment for the unsaved is the same as for the allegedly saved.

You need to provide examples in scripture where a person thinking of murder is stoned to death as an actual murderer was.

Show where an actual murderer was stoned.

Or you need to debunk Paul in 1 Cor 6, where the first eight scriptures explain how we must judge disputes among ourselves properly / as we will judge the world and angels one-day. IE Do you think Paul will be impressed with ''your'' judgment skills if you said ''this guy stole that guys car, but because this guy thought of stealing the others first, they are even''.

Had you read just one more verse, you would have seen the "point" Paul was making..."the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
Neither the doer nor the thinker were righteous.
They will receive the same "reward" of unrighteousness.

2.

''Death'' needs to be better defined.
It simply means out of God's presence. It does not mean hell. All sin gets us out of God's presence. Some sin gets us into hell.

Your ambiguity infers a limbo status for some, in spite of God's words to the contrary.
It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:" (John 8:34-35)
There is no destination for the sinner besides the lake of fire.

Rom 2:6 God will repay each according to what they have done.

Some men worry enough about this verse to never sin again.
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)

 

[At Peace]

Then i am glad for you my friend. I think i wrote earlier, but i may have said it to anothsr. My dad was that way as well. He lived his life perfect in Jesus. Sinless.
It isnt impossible to be this way, i know a few others who walk the same path.

In my own life, as i said before, i am glad to be a sinner. I know it sounds odd. But i fear becoming proud. The Lord has given me so much. Let me just share a little. Spiritual warefare. I am deeply involved. I see and hear Angels.

I cant talk a lot about many things because it is plainly too deep for most. Thier faith cant handle it. I know, ive tried.

I am not afraid to write frankly here...
To be glad one is a sinner for worry of being a sinner is insanity.

Sinners have no faith, so quit sinning, and have faith.
You will find that the only pride you have is in Christ Jesus for His amazing love and grace.

 

[At Peace]

It is true that sin is sin. Yet not all sin is alike.

During the time of Christ. Many people were sinning. Jesus said he was a doctor. He came to help the sick. "Which is easier, to say be healed, or your sins are forgiven".
Yet he comdemned Judas before he died.
In our own world, there is human trafficing. A man who willingly buys and sells other people for his own profit is in danger of hell. A teenager who cusses the Lords name when he smacks his finger with a hammer, is not in danger of going to hell.
These are two examples of sin.
God will not punish these at the same level.

I guess you suppose some who are not born of God will be deemed worthy of eternal life?
Your post is contrary to 1 John 3:8-10.

 

[At Peace]

Yes, it is.

So when a child of yours decides to sin, do you throw him out?

It is written..."Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Pro 22:6)
If my child is of age, and committed a sin, I would offer him repentance or he would be thrown out.
He would have manifested that any prior "turn from" sin was a lie, however.

I thank God that I have no children so I never need experience the sadness parents would feel for their failure to "train up" their children.

 

[At Peace]

When God is ready for me to finish the work He has begun in me.

So it is God's fault you continue to commit sin?
You should re-examine that POV.

 

[KingJ]

Your post shows that you think the "unworthy" will be chosen to be in God's presence.
What determines one's unworthiness?One sin? Five? twenty five?The bible says those who commit "A" sin are not born of God. (1 John 3:8-10)
Perhaps you can post a verse where anyone is "chosen" to be in God's presence, unworthily?
The end result of sin in either Testament is separation from God.In the OT, men offered an appropriate sacrifice ans walked away atoned for.
In the NT sinners can turn from sin forever, be washed with the blood of Christ in baptism in Jesus' name, and walk in the light till death.The punishment for the unsaved is the same as for the allegedly saved.Show where an actual murderer was stoned.Had you read just one more verse, you would have seen the "point" Paul was making..."the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God"Neither the doer nor the thinker were righteous.They will receive the same "reward" of unrighteousness.Your ambiguity infers a limbo status for some, in spite of God's words to the contrary.It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:" (John 8:34-35)There is no destination for the sinner besides the lake of fire.Some men worry enough about this verse to never sin again.
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)

The day you acknowledge you are a sinner, I will take discussion with you serious. As for right now, I just can't be bothered to repeat the same old. Please stop trolling my replies to others. That is not very Christ like.

 

[KingJ]

It is written..."Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Pro 22:6)
If my child is of age, and committed a sin, I would offer him repentance or he would be thrown out.
He would have manifested that any prior "turn from" sin was a lie, however.

I thank God that I have no children so I never need experience the sadness parents would feel for their failure to "train up" their children.

Cop out.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Men,

may i ask you to please re-read these two posts?
What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'? post #1
and
What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'? post #5

and, from post #9

"I'm still interested in any replies relating to the actual word 'perfect' in the early Hebrew written language, which reflects to at least some degree the language and understanding of that word.
English does not do Scripture many favours. Especially in a world where people are pre-set in understanding what words mean. Most use words without giving them much thought and rarely get too interested in what the word(s) they use actually mean or where they come from.

Perhaps this also is the case with this word perfect.
תָּמִים

remember that we read backwards!
a Cross, water, an arm and hand, water
Perfect"

It's not about 'hieroglyphics'. It's about looking at what it means to be perfect as the LORD God required of Abram and requires of us. Looking at the early writing and having a basic understanding of how the Hebrews understood and wrote about the LORD can help us to understand some things better.


One thing I have noticed, after 10 pages of replies is that nobody has said anything about the way in which perfect was initially written.

It is good that we have been able to discuss so much so far. May it be that each one of us has been edified and encouraged to some degree or another.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


then there is sin that keeps you from heaven

1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

There are lots of sin that brings natural death but only one that brings Spiritual death, or the second death and that is rejecting Christ.

Dave look at Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

It's Kingdom Laws that governs the force and power of God's Word.
It's Peace of God and so forth.

They won't experience these things no matter how much they read their queen James bibles.
Blessings of grace to you

 

[Bill]

So it is God's fault you continue to commit sin?
You should re-examine that POV.

Greetings,

thank you Brothers for your replies.
You are sort of touching on the question and answer and I appreciate that.

B-A-C without going into an unnecessary argument with you or anyone, (please everyone) you mentioned grace. Perhaps it is grace that enables and provides for 'perfect'? So in that sense, yes, it is by grace alone, for without it we have no provision to do the loving as 'perfect'. Anyone can love, as such, but the whole search here is to grasp what 'perfect' is.

also, to love your neighbour is good but it is fairly loose, as is. After all, what is love? Who decides? A bit on the abstract side and without any concrete, is quite 'out there' for self-definition and boundaries.
So we need the LORD's definition (which He has given us).

To all,
if we use words to explain that is good. But if those words we use are abstract, ie something we need to individually think with our own present understanding, then those words do not really covey anything for the hearer except that which the hearer may imagine that term to mean to them. This is dangerous territory and the whole world is full of people who reckon that it is up to them to believe in whatever idea of a god they want and they base their often sincere considerations on what they imagine their god to be, along with any principals they think with their own understanding that their god would be requiring of them.

Please tell me if this doesn't make sense and i will try to re-word it.

I used the verse from Genesis about Abram and the LORD and it fit well with what followed but there are of course many uses of the word 'perfect' at least in the KJV.
When we look at the other versions provided above in a previous reply, we can see lots of abstract and not so much concrete regarding any amplified or paraphrased versions go, so unless we sift through them all and pick and choose, we are not much better off. Yes, having those many to look at surely gives us a more definite word to understand but even still, much is left to our imagination.
Likewise, we can say that God is perfect and Jesus is the perfect sacrifice but how does that mean?
Once we really understand what the term 'perfect' means according to the LORD we can use it because we understand from the LORD what He means and therefore if one says or writes 'perfect' another will completely understand. From there, nor disputing will arise because everyone is on the same page, being the LORD's not their own. Another way of putting that is that everyone will be not only on the same page but in the same book.

The problem; our own understanding.
The solution? God's understanding (if I can use that expression)

Look again at the pictograph way of writing what the word 'perfect' is.
A Cross, water, an arm and hand, water.
what does that mean to you?


Bless you ....><>

I understand what you are saying Bro. Being perfect and being in perfection is doing as God tells us and having God live in you. It could be said that you become the prayer.

 

[At Peace]

The day you acknowledge you are a sinner, I will take discussion with you serious. As for right now, I just can't be bothered to repeat the same old. Please stop trolling my replies to others. That is not very Christ like.

I used to be a sinner, but I took advantage of God's gracious gift of repentance and turned from sin.
The same gift is available to everyone else.

 

[At Peace]

I understand what you are saying Bro. Being perfect and being in perfection is doing as God tells us and having God live in you.

As that is the Christian life, are you willing to be a Christian?

It could be said that you become the prayer.

Could you elaborate on this a tad?

 

[At Peace]

Greetings Men,
Perhaps this also is the case with this word perfect.
תָּמִים

remember that we read backwards!
a Cross, water, an arm and hand, water
Perfect"

It's not about 'hieroglyphics'. It's about looking at what it means to be perfect as the LORD God required of Abram and requires of us. Looking at the early writing and having a basic understanding of how the Hebrews understood and wrote about the LORD can help us to understand some things better.

Would it be a correct assumption to say that all men intrinsically know what God requires of us?
I think our consciences are all in tune on this point, as all know murder is wrong and theft is wrong, etc.
Where the water gets muddy is when folks start to excuse wickedness with private interpretations of God's will.
For example...some say they can kill someone who threatens their wife and kids, without any qualms or guilt.
Some say that in the army they can kill, without guilt.
But are these really "escape clauses"?
I think not.
They are reactions by folks who don't do the work necessary to remain in God's good graces ahead of time.
If husbands don't stay in subjection to God, constantly asking God to bless and protect their families, they may end up in a test from God that may show they are not in subjection to God.

Our own perfect obedience to God won't guarantee those around us will be equally obedient, but the odds of it go up considerably..

 

[Bill]

Would it be a correct assumption to say that all men intrinsically know what God requires of us?
I think our consciences are all in tune on this point, as all know murder is wrong and theft is wrong, etc.
Where the water gets muddy is when folks start to excuse wickedness with private interpretations of God's will.
For example...some say they can kill someone who threatens their wife and kids, without any qualms or guilt.
Some say that in the army they can kill, without guilt.
But are these really "escape clauses"?
I think not.
They are reactions by folks who don't do the work necessary to remain in God's good graces ahead of time.
If husbands don't stay in subjection to God, constantly asking God to bless and protect their families, they may end up in a test from God that may show they are not in subjection to God.

Our own perfect obedience to God won't guarantee those around us will be equally obedient, but the odds of it go up considerably..

Is God subject to His own Laws? If not, then the whole concept of the Covenant is meaningless?

As God is subject to His own Laws, explain the justification of God telling the Israelites to kill thier enemies. I mean, after all, He is God. Couldn't He have made the enemies of Israel all friends?