What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[Bill]

Would it be a correct assumption to say that all men intrinsically know what God requires of us?
I think our consciences are all in tune on this point, as all know murder is wrong and theft is wrong, etc.
Where the water gets muddy is when folks start to excuse wickedness with private interpretations of God's will.
For example...some say they can kill someone who threatens their wife and kids, without any qualms or guilt.
Some say that in the army they can kill, without guilt.
But are these really "escape clauses"?
I think not.
They are reactions by folks who don't do the work necessary to remain in God's good graces ahead of time.
If husbands don't stay in subjection to God, constantly asking God to bless and protect their families, they may end up in a test from God that may show they are not in subjection to God.

Our own perfect obedience to God won't guarantee those around us will be equally obedient, but the odds of it go up considerably..

I am being a little bit (i can think of the word, but the spelling escapes me) fa she ses. (Not the spelling, just sound it out). Ok, but God did tell the Israelites to often kill thier enemies.

Killing here, and murder are two different things. Im glad i am not God

 

[KingJ]

Would it be a correct assumption to say that all men intrinsically know what God requires of us?
I think our consciences are all in tune on this point, as all know murder is wrong and theft is wrong, etc.

We are aware of hurting ourselves and others. Someone who is not God fearing will not grasp things like the Sabbath or consented immoral sex (homosexuality, threesomes).

Where the water gets muddy is when folks start to excuse wickedness with private interpretations of God's will.
For example...some say they can kill someone who threatens their wife and kids, without any qualms or guilt.
Some say that in the army they can kill, without guilt.
But are these really "escape clauses"?
I think not.
They are reactions by folks who don't do the work necessary to remain in God's good graces ahead of time.
If husbands don't stay in subjection to God, constantly asking God to bless and protect their families, they may end up in a test from God that may show they are not in subjection to God.

Our own perfect obedience to God won't guarantee those around us will be equally obedient, but the odds of it go up considerably.

Self defense is fine. We are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling before God. When I get on my knees I feel fully justified for protecting my family.

A man or woman who does not protect their family does not love God or their family.

You are again straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

 

[KingJ]

I am being a little bit (i can think of the word, but the spelling escapes me) fa she ses. (Not the spelling, just sound it out). Ok, but God did tell the Israelites to often kill thier enemies.

Many occasions. Outside of that, God kills all wicked whose sin is full measure. This is not wicked though. God has given even the wicked an eternal life, just in hell. Their lives are not ''ended''. Jews and Christians know this. It would be something if God annihilated his enemy as some believe. I would find it hard to prove God is 100% good in that scenario.

Killing here, and murder are two different things. Im glad i am not God

Don't underestimate yourself. A Christian will judge the world and angels 1 Cor 6. We are able to escape our own judgement if we judge ourselves truthfully 1 Cor 11:31.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,

as the title says, what is 'Perfect' or what is 'Perfection'?

If I asked you to describe it to me, how would you do so?
When Abram was a tender 90 years old, the LORD said unto him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, and be thou perfect." from Genesis 17:1 KJV

There is perfect to God and then there is perfect to us.

Perfect to God:

God's expectation of perfection from humans is them having a heart after his and passing a session of sincere repentance Psalm 51:17 ''God will not despise''. Acts 13:22 God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do. I find the underlined interesting. 'God testified'. So God could use him to do whatever He wanted, because he had a heart after God's. I believe a heart after God's is also defined in Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. When we stop repenting, we have stopped hating what we do.

What more can God ask of us???? :wink:. This is why those few OT prophets qualified to go to a 'part' of heaven. Many qualified for Abraham's bosom. Even without Jesus cleansing them of sins.

Perfect to us:

Outside of knowing the above and God, we are quick to say nobody is perfect because we know perfection is making no mistakes and always having perfect love for others.

So we can make statements of Mother Theresa and her level of selflessness for others. She was without a doubt closer to perfection then any of us here. To even think we are close to her is simply vanity.

We can have the '''talk''' but without the ''works'', we are trying to deceive others / IE lying. We will not / should not have to tell others we are perfect....if we are perfect. People said Jesus was good, He never said He was. Then there are works and there are works. People doing works like Matt 7:22 were far from perfect. Not to say all who do that are. But it is a stark contrast to people doing works per James 1:27. Religion undefiled = perfect religion.

Was Jesus perfect?

This is also an interesting discussion. We know Jesus did not sin. Yet He said He was not good. He said only God is good in Mark 10:18.

I think the answer is obvious when we consider verses like Luke 22:42 ''take this cup from me''. It showed he was battling with a weak / sinful flesh. But He overcame it when not only said ''your will be done'', but actually did God's will. This is important because we can clearly vouch for Jesus / God '''not cheating'''. He had a weak flesh, just as we do. So, He was perfect inside, but on the outside, not. As a whole, He was not perfect.

 

[amadeus2]

When God is ready for me to finish the work He has begun in me.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

Man wants to and usually does take time as if it is his own. God gave us quite few things to use, but what we do with what we have been given is really the ultimate test. Time, like everything else, really belongs to God. Getting to the place where we really recognize and live as if it is His, is a major part of our journey. How do we get there? Well certainly not alone:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

 

[amadeus2]

It is written..."Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Pro 22:6)
If my child is of age, and committed a sin, I would offer him repentance or he would be thrown out.
He would have manifested that any prior "turn from" sin was a lie, however.

I thank God that I have no children so I never need experience the sadness parents would feel for their failure to "train up" their children.

Or to feel the emptiness of never having had physical children of your own to fill up as you train them. Even the best of parents are seldom if ever "perfect" parents, but they love their children anyway. This is how I believe our God, [who would be a perfect parent if we would allow it], must feel about all of His children. To love a child and work with that child and watch him as he responds in good ways and to help him when his responses are not so good. That is the love of the Father toward those who are His.

"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:9-11

Thank God that He is the best of fathers. All He wants is that we love Him in return.

Yesterday I was thinking of my two children grown with children of their own and even one grandchild [my son's] and then it got busy. Our son called had a lovely conversation with myself and his mother. Scarcely had we gotten off the phone and our doorbell rang. It was our daughter come to spend some time with her parents. Perhaps never having had children you cannot understand the delight of those contacts for us. I am praying that God help you to receive all that He has for you.

Give God the glory!

Give God the glory!

 

[At Peace]

Is God subject to His own Laws? If not, then the whole concept of the Covenant is meaningless?

As God is subject to His own Laws, explain the justification of God telling the Israelites to kill thier enemies. I mean, after all, He is God. Couldn't He have made the enemies of Israel all friends?

Good point.
First, they weren't Israel's enemies: they were God's enemies..
As all are sinners, (till the real "turn from" sin offered us in the NT), the death of the committers of iniquity was already ordained.
God used the Israelites as His sword.
If God were to tell us to kill, now days, we would be obliged to obey.
He won't, though, and has told us to pray for our enemies and do them good, in the hope they will one day turn from sin as we have.
Only God knows what and how much more iniquity would have been done by the slain, as is evidenced by the wickedness the survivors did after the Israelites left some alive.

As God gives life, is He not entitled to also take it away?

 

[Bill]

As that is the Christian life, are you willing to be a Christian?


Could you elaborate on this a tad?

Im going to write a thread if i can figure out how to do it. I hope it will demistrate how one becomes the pr

Good point.
First, they weren't Israel's enemies: they were God's enemies..
As all are sinners, (till the real "turn from" sin offered us in the NT), the death of the committers of iniquity was already ordained.
God used the Israelites as His sword.
If God were to tell us to kill, now days, we would be obliged to obey.
He won't, though, and has told us to pray for our enemies and do them good, in the hope they will one day turn from sin as we have.
Only God knows what and how much more iniquity would have been done by the slain, as is evidenced by the wickedness the survivors did after the Israelites left some alive.

As God gives life, is He not entitled to also take it away?

Certainly God is entitled to take life away. At least in the sense of the body. But He will never take away our souls, never destroy the soul as non exist

 

[At Peace]

Or to feel the emptiness of never having had physical children of your own to fill up as you train them. Even the best of parents are seldom if ever "perfect" parents, but they love their children anyway. This is how I believe our God, [who would be a perfect parent if we would allow it], must feel about all of His children. To love a child and work with that child and watch him as he responds in good ways and to help him when his responses are not so good. That is the love of the Father toward those who are His.

"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:9-11

Thank God that He is the best of fathers. All He wants is that we love Him in return.

Yesterday I was thinking of my two children grown with children of their own and even one grandchild [my son's] and then it got busy. Our son called had a lovely conversation with myself and his mother. Scarcely had we gotten off the phone and our doorbell rang. It was our daughter come to spend some time with her parents. Perhaps never having had children you cannot understand the delight of those contacts for us. I am praying that God help you to receive all that He has for you.

Give God the glory!

Give God the glory!

I can "hear" the joy in your post.
Glory to God, indeed!

 

[Bill]

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

Man wants to and usually does take time as if it is his own. God gave us quite few things to use, but what we do with what we have been given is really the ultimate test. Time, like everything else, really belongs to God. Getting to the place where we really recognize and live as if it is His, is a major part of our journey. How do we get there? Well certainly not alone:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

I invite you to read my post, A Sunday with Jesus

 

[Bill]

I can "hear" the joy in your post.
Glory to God, indeed!

When we talk about what is perfect and what is perfection, the thought of what King David said about his troops comes to my mind.

My troops are always ritually pure for a regular mission, how much more for a special mission.

This goes along with the reading of using regular dishes and using special dishes. NT.

In my life i strive to do Gods will, but when God moves in me, it becomes His perfection.

 

[At Peace]

I am being a little bit (i can think of the word, but the spelling escapes me) fa she ses. (Not the spelling, just sound it out). Ok, but God did tell the Israelites to often kill thier enemies.

(facetious)
Yes He did,
As He is the giver of life, is He not authorized to take it?
Especially if He knows the "dead" would have gone on to much more wickedness?

Killing here, and murder are two different things. Im glad i am not God

Which word is used in the ten commandments?
"Kill" or "murder"?
Christians are to turn the other cheek, and pray for those who spitefully use us.
Pray ahead of time that you are never put in a position where you may be tempted to use violence against another human being.

 

[At Peace]

When we talk about what is perfect and what is perfection, the thought of what King David said about his troops comes to my mind.
My troops are always ritually pure for a regular mission, how much more for a special mission.
This goes along with the reading of using regular dishes and using special dishes. NT.

In my life i strive to do Gods will, but when God moves in me, it becomes His perfection.

Are not all your "moves" done with "God in you"?

 

[Bill]

Are not all your "moves" done with "God in you"?

Yes, Jesus is in me. But i am still human. I will never claim equality with God

 

[At Peace]

Yes, Jesus is in me. But i am still human. I will never claim equality with God

To be reborn of God's seed means you have a divine nature, and that you have crucified the old self. (Rom 6:3-6)
Your new mind is in charge of the "human".

Ever fasted?
It is the mind's way of showing the "skin" who is the boss.

 

[KingJ]

To be reborn of God's seed means you have a divine nature, and that you have crucified the old self. (Rom 6:3-6)
Your new mind is in charge of the "human".

Ever fasted?
It is the mind's way of showing the "skin" who is the boss.

Why do you need to fast if you are perfect?

 

[At Peace]

Why do you need to fast if you are perfect?

To keep showing the "skin" who is boss.
Also for help to grow in grace and knowledge.
Or perhaps for an answer to a question: like...How does the man reborn of God's seed interpret 1 John 1:8?
Or maybe just to show God how much you love Him.

Why does the man who is still a servant of sin fast?
Does he really think God will give him anything?

 

[Br. Bear]

Why does the man who is still a servant of sin fast?
Does he really think God will give him anything?

powerful question

 

[Br. Bear]

May i interrupt this broadcast?

Sorry to be a bore, but going back to my original 'questions', when we consider the term 'Perfect' or 'Perfection' we can either have an abstract idea of what it means or a 'concrete' knowledge of it.

How about if I was to ask, "you have given abstract responses to what does 'perfect/perfection' mean, meaning, you have been able to tell me what you THINK it means or WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU but, can you please attempt to at least, give me a concrete view of it?"

Again, I provided some original ancient Hebrew writing with my feeble explanation of what use it can be, and a verse that tells us that the LORD required Abram (before he was called Abraham) to be perfect.
In the pictograph we saw, a Cross, Water, An outstretched and strong Arm and Water. Notice the a b a b effect? (or A B A B) as Paul used in some of his explaining of the Word.
{for those familiar with the name of God, which I shall attempt here in my tongue, yod hey vav hey you have the same pattern, so all this 'hieroglyphics nonsense' might not be all that non sense after all. I think they call it the tetragrammaton or something , YHVH.}

Perhaps mix this up with all your responses and see if anything sets?


Bless you all and thank you for reading this and replying so far ....><>

 

[Dave M]

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.