What is sin to a believer?

[regibassman57]

This is to all my "Brothers and Sister in Christ; I believe when we look at the term "sin" in scripture, we have to know if it's a "verb" or a "noun" in the context of the scripture we're reading.
Some scriptures are just saying, the action of a person is not of God; the influence and action is of Satan.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

People have completely taken these verses out of context. If I have diabetes and I know I'm not supposed to eat candy, and I do, have I sinned? That is not what God is saying. It's talking about the influence of Satan.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law (emotion) in my body, warring against the law (God's word) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (Satan's influence) which is in my body.

Paul feels Satan's influence in his body through temptations.

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
What do you think I mean by "unfruitful works; or I should say, what does the bible say and mean about unfruitful works?

Well, at one level, "fruit" is, of course, figurative language for our good deeds (Jer. 32:19).

After all, should bananas and apples literally be growing whenever we perform "fruitful" works? Surely not!

So, I think a simple way to think about it is this: fruitful works are good works.

Then, we can fill-in the meaning for "fruitful" by simply examining those good things we, as Christians, should do.

There are MANY good things we Christians should be doing! It would be tough to list everything.

Jesus talks about good fruit vs. bad fruit (Mt. 7). And then He gets specific, in context, associating bad fruit with LAWLESSNESS (Mt. 7:21-23).

Thus, Jesus teaches that we should OBEY the law (Torah), for this is good fruit.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,

I do agree that fruit is used figuratively for good deeds, but they are also used to describe an evil or sinful character (Matthew 7:18, 19).

The analogy of "fruitful works" is used by Christ to get us to understand character development.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth “fruit” (character) unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were “by the law,” did work in our bodies to bring forth fruit (character) unto death.

The only fruit we bring forth unto God is character (Ephesians 4:22-24).

Joh 15:2 Every branch “in me” that bears not fruit (character) he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit (Romans 5:3-5).

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.

What is the fruit believers bring forth?

Gal 5:22 But the “fruit of the Spirit” is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: “against such there is no law.”

Developing the character of the Fruit of the Spirit has nothing to do with the Torah. The Fruit of the Spirit has to do with the character of Christ, or the Ten Commandments; not the hand writtings of the Laws of Moses.

Deu 4:13 God declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone “written with the finger of God;” and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spoke with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

If a believer is or becomes unfruitful, they are as a castaway.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

G96 (castaway)
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, “that they be not unfruitful.”

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,

I do agree that fruit is used figuratively for good deeds, but they are also used to describe an evil or sinful character (Matthew 7:18, 19).

The analogy of "fruitful works" is used by Christ to get us to understand character development.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth “fruit” (character) unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were “by the law,” did work in our bodies to bring forth fruit (character) unto death.

The only fruit we bring forth unto God is character (Ephesians 4:22-24).

Joh 15:2 Every branch “in me” that bears not fruit (character) he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit (Romans 5:3-5).

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.

What is the fruit believers bring forth?

Gal 5:22 But the “fruit of the Spirit” is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: “against such there is no law.”

Developing the character of the Fruit of the Spirit has nothing to do with the Torah. The Fruit of the Spirit has to do with the character of Christ, or the Ten Commandments; not the hand writtings of the Laws of Moses.

Deu 4:13 God declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone “written with the finger of God;” and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spoke with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

If a believer is or becomes unfruitful, they are as a castaway.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

G96 (castaway)
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, “that they be not unfruitful.”

Hello!

You wrote: "Developing the character of the Fruit of the Spirit has nothing to do with the Torah. The Fruit of the Spirit has to do with the character of Christ, or the Ten Commandments; not the hand writtings of the Laws of Moses."

My response: You've got MANY problems with that statement!

PROBLEM #1

The Ten Commandments are INCLUDED in the Law of Moses (Dt. 5 is included in the Torah of Moses described in Dt. 31:9-12 and in Dt. 32:46).

Thus, your comment which I just quoted is simply wrong, because you wrongly assume that the 10 Commandments were not subsequently transcribed in writing by Moses.


PROBLEM #2

You wrongly assume that the character of Christ is expressed in the 10 commandments (but not the written Torah of Moses).

In fact, the character of Christ is expressed in obedience to ALL the Torah of Moses (Mt. 4:4; 5:19; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34), with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28), and with great warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 7:21-23; 13:41-42) even the smallest of commands (Mt. 5:19-20).

So, you have failed to properly identify the character of Christ as expressed in the words of Christ I just quoted from Scripture.

PROBLEM #3

You are wrong, again, by claiming that the fruit of the Spirit does not pertain to Torah.

1. The fruit of the Spirit includes faithfulness (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 5:22).
2. Jesus says "pistis" comes straight from Torah (Mt. 23:23) and should be obeyed.
3. The fruit of the Spirit includes Torah faithfulness (from 1 and 2)

Thus, you have wrongly opposed the above Scripturally-motivated line of reasoning.

And again, you are wrong to claim that Spirit is contrary to the law:

1. We are either of the spirit or of the flesh (Rom. 8:5).
2. Those of the flesh disobey Torah (Rom. 8:7)
3. Those of the Spirit obey Torah (from 1 and 2).

So, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah from the heart! (confirmed also in Heb. 10:15-16 and in Dt. 30:14 cited by Paul in Rom. 10:8).

Thus, you have wrongly identified the nature of the fruit of the Spirit and its relationship to Torah.


Are you willing to address these three problems in your position?

 

[regibassman57]

Hello Bibleguy,

If I’m not mistaken, however, you will correct me if I am; the book of the Law of Moses is different than the Testimonies of God. I’m pretty sure the Testimony of God and the Book of the Law of Moses were placed separately in the Ark of the Covenant of God. They are considered the "Torah," but one is temporary for the time and the other is Evrlasting.

Isn’t the Book of Moses written by Moses? but the writings of the Testimony, which are the Ten Commandments, were written by God? These were placed separate in the Ark of the Covenant it seems for a reason? I believe it shows the two different covenants. One is a temporary covenant and the other is an Everlasting Covenant.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the “side” of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a “witness against thee.”

The Ten Commandments are not against a man. This is specifically talking about the Law of Moses (carnal commandments). This is why Colossian is important to understand. The Law that was “against us" was crucified on the cross. The Ten Commandments are not a witness against us.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was “against us,” which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Book of Moses is the carnal covenant written for man, Jesus is not a part of this Covenant; though He had to fulfill it as a man? Jesus is the Everlasting Covenant; the word/character of God which has only to do with the Ten Commandments; the Testimonies of God (Psa. 119:144, 152).

Heb 7:16 (Jesus) Who is made, not after the law of a “carnal commandment,” but after the power of an endless life.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the “testimony of the LORD” is sure, making wise the simple.

These are the Ten Commandments being spoken of here. The Book of Moses was placed on the “side” of the Ark of the Covenant, while the Testimony of God was placed “in” the Ark of the Covenant; there is a differene.

Exo 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

Exo 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

God wrote the Testimony, but He had Moses put them “into” the Ark. To me “into” and “on the side” are different places.

Exo 25:16 And thou shall “put into” the “ark the testimony” which I shall give thee.

 

[Dave M]

sins of the flesh are listed in the bible and people who practice them will not inherit the kingdom of God

 

[regibassman57]

What's up @Dave M.

Just keeping you sharp; as I know you'll do me,
Your statement:
"sins of the flesh are listed in the bible and people who practice them will not inherit the kingdom of God"

I think you may have meant, "the works of the flesh" are listed.

 

[bibleguy]

Hello Bibleguy,

If I’m not mistaken, however, you will correct me if I am; the book of the Law of Moses is different than the Testimonies of God. I’m pretty sure the Testimony of God and the Book of the Law of Moses were placed separately in the Ark of the Covenant of God. They are considered the "Torah," but one is temporary for the time and the other is Evrlasting.

Isn’t the Book of Moses written by Moses? but the writings of the Testimony, which are the Ten Commandments, were written by God? These were placed separate in the Ark of the Covenant it seems for a reason? I believe it shows the two different covenants. One is a temporary covenant and the other is an Everlasting Covenant.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the “side” of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a “witness against thee.”

The Ten Commandments are not against a man. This is specifically talking about the Law of Moses (carnal commandments). This is why Colossian is important to understand. The Law that was “against us" was crucified on the cross. The Ten Commandments are not a witness against us.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was “against us,” which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Book of Moses is the carnal covenant written for man, Jesus is not a part of this Covenant; though He had to fulfill it as a man? Jesus is the Everlasting Covenant; the word/character of God which has only to do with the Ten Commandments; the Testimonies of God (Psa. 119:144, 152).

Heb 7:16 (Jesus) Who is made, not after the law of a “carnal commandment,” but after the power of an endless life.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the “testimony of the LORD” is sure, making wise the simple.

These are the Ten Commandments being spoken of here. The Book of Moses was placed on the “side” of the Ark of the Covenant, while the Testimony of God was placed “in” the Ark of the Covenant; there is a differene.

Exo 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

Exo 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

God wrote the Testimony, but He had Moses put them “into” the Ark. To me “into” and “on the side” are different places.

Exo 25:16 And thou shall “put into” the “ark the testimony” which I shall give thee.

Howdy partner!

The testimonies include more than just the 10 Commandments. Remember YHVH's testimony cited in Ps. 122:4? It came NOT from the 10 Commandments, but from Ex. 23:17 and Dt. 16:16.

And, the 10 Commandments were spoken by Moses (Dt. 5:1ff) and were written by Moses (Dt. 31:24). Thus, you CAN NOT separate the 10 Commandments from the rest of Torah!

Here's more proof:

1. The first of the ten commandments requires that YHVH be our ONLY God.
2. If YHVH is our only God, then we will do ALL that He requires.
3. YHVH requires obedience to all Torah (Dt. 6:25), not merely the 10 commandments.
4. Obedience to the ten commandments entails obedience to ALL Torah (from 1, 2, and 3).

So, this is REALLY GOOD reason why we must STOP separating the 10 commandments from the rest of Torah.

Would the Israelites ever properly consider obeying only selected portions of Torah, when 100% obedience was expected and required? Of course not. Such an idea is utterly foreign to the text and foreign to the context.

100% obedience was expected (Dt. 6:25), and 100% obedience is prophesied to occur (for us) again in the future (Dt. 30:1-8).


You wrote: "They are considered the "Torah," but one is temporary for the time and the other is Evrlasting."

My response: Ok. Now why are you saying one is temporary? Remember Dt. 30:1-8? That's a FUTURE prophecy of a FUTURE time when Torah will again be 100% obeyed.

Thus, it's unbiblical to suppose that even the smallest of Torah instructions has passed away.

Jesus concurs, claiming that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for a single letter of the law to fall away (Mt. 5:18).

That's why Jesus expects us to teach and obey even the SMALLEST of Torah commands so as to attain greatness in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

No portion of Torah will pass away until evidently sometime in the VERY DISTANT future (i.e., after the Millennium).

Torah will be in full force (complete with animal sacrifices) throughout the Millennium.


You wrote: " I believe it shows the two different covenants. One is a temporary covenant and the other is an Everlasting Covenant."

My response: I have now already shown you that the 10 Commandments entail obedience to all the rest of Torah. They (the 10 commandments and the rest of Torah) are inter-dependent. They are NOT independent.

You wrote: "The Ten Commandments are not against a man. "

My response: Incorrect. Here's why:

1. The first of the ten commandments requires that YHVH be our ONLY God.
2. If YHVH is our only God, then we will do ALL that He requires.
3. YHVH requires obedience to all Torah (Dt. 6:25), not merely the 10 commandments.
4. Obedience to the ten commandments entails obedience to ALL Torah (from 1, 2, and 3).
5. Torah is AGAINST those who disobey (Dt. 30:14-20).
6. Obedience to the ten commandments entails that Torah is against those who disobey Torah (from 4 and 5).

So if you accept that the 10 Commandments continue to be in force, then you MUST also accept that Torah continues to be against those who disobey Torah.

Of COURSE Torah continues to be against those who continue to disobey it! That's precisely what Paul said (Gal. 3:10). Paul never said that the curse is no longer in force. Paul said the curse continues to be in force!

And guess what else? Paul applies that very passage (Dt. 30) to YOU!. Faithful Torah-obedience IS THE WORD OF FAITH WHICH PAUL PREACHED! (Rom. 10:8)

Choose for yourself: life or death. Torah-obedience or Torah-disobedience. Dt. 30.

Let's stop pretending that Torah no longer applies to us. Jeremiah plainly passes Torah directly into the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33).


You wrote: "This is why Colossian is important to understand. The Law that was “against us" was crucified on the cross."

My response: Careful! You just did a no-no! Eisegesis must stop. You just misquoted Paul. Col. 2:14 cancels the DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon, G5498), not the Torah itself!

TORAH is not DEBT! TORAH is not canceled (according to Col. 2).

Rather, the DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon") is canceled (according to Col. 2).

TORAH is "nomos" in Greek. Paul never said the "nomos" is canceled in Col. 2. In fact, "nomos" appears nowhere in the entire book of Colossians!

So, let's stop misinterpreting Col. 2. It does not say Torah was canceled.

And, let's stop contradicting the Biblical evidence which confirms that Paul OBEYED Torah:

1. Paul condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he walked "orderly according to the law" (Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul and do likewise (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
2. Paul taught against sin (Rom. 6:15); Torah-disobedience is sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7); thus Paul taught against Torah-disobedience; thus Paul taught Torah-obedience.
3. Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you (Rom. 10:8). Thus, we should likewise obey the Torah-obedient word of faith which Paul preached.
4. Paul affirms the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25) in which Torah is to be written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33) so that we would obey it (Dt. 30:14 cited in Rom.10:8).
5. Paul believed everything in Torah (Ac. 24:14). Belief entails obedience. Thus, Paul obeyed all Torah. We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
6. Paul believed everything in the Prophets (Ac. 24:14). The prophets affirm Torah-obedience. Thus, Paul affirmed Torah-obedience. We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
7. Paul affirmed the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom. 2:27).
8. Paul said we should keep God's commandments (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).
9. Paul said we should live by faithfulness (Gal. 3:11 citing "emunah" in Hab. 2:4). And, the way of "emunah" entails Torah-obedience (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138).
10. Paul said we are in the flesh or in the spirit (Rom. 8:5). The flesh DISOBEYS Torah (Rom. 8:7). The Spirit, by contrast, leads us to OBEY Torah (confirmed, also, in Heb. 10:15-16 and Eze. 36:27).

Agreed?

We can not misinterpret Col. 2, and then ignore these 10 Biblical considerations.

We need to be consistent.


You wrote: "The Book of Moses is the carnal covenant written for man, Jesus is not a part of this Covenant."

My response: Jesus most assuredly obeyed AND TAUGHT Torah-obedience. Have I not shown you this already?

Jesus taught Torah-obedience (Mt. 4:4; 5:19-20; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28), and with great warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42), and these Torah-teachings apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

How can you say Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant (Lk. 22:20), yet simultaneously oppose the Torah (Jer. 31:33) of the covenant which Jesus (and Paul and John and Peter and Stephen, etc.) obeyed AND TAUGHT OTHERS TO OBEY?

We REALLY need to stop ignoring this Biblical evidence.

Sure, the Melchizedek priesthood is distinct from the Aaronic priesthood (Heb. 7:16), but that's no excuse to ignore the Torah obeyed and taught by Jesus and the Apostles.


You wrote: "These are the Ten Commandments being spoken of here. The Book of Moses was placed on the “side” of the Ark of the Covenant, while the Testimony of God was placed “in” the Ark of the Covenant; there is a differene."

My response: Of course the 10 commandments are DIFFERENT than the rest of the Torah.

The two GREATEST commandments (Lev. 19:18; Dt. 6:4-5) are also DIFFERENT than the 10 commandments.

The two GREATEST commandments are also DIFFERENT than the rest of Torah.

But they ALL ENTAIL ONE ANOTHER!

So let's stop splicing and dicing the Torah into pieces. That's unbiblical. It needs to stop.

Think of concentric circles.

The innermost circle is the Torah portion found in Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18.
Next larger concentric circle is the Torah portion known as the 10 Commandments (Dt. 5 and Ex. 20).
Next larger concentric circle is the remainder of Torah portions.

And guess who is at the very center? The Messiah!

Torah points us to the Messiah (Col. 2:17; Heb. 10:1; Rom. 10:4).
Messiah points us to Torah (Mt. 4:4; 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42; 22:37,39; 23:2-3,23,34; Lk. 10:25-28; 22:20).

Jesus is the Torah-made-flesh (Jn. 1:14).

Did Jesus come to abolish Himself? Of course not! Thus, He (the Living Torah) is still in force!

Hope you take these words to heart....as Paul requires (Dt. 30:14).

blessings....

 

[Dave M]

What's up @Dave M.

Just keeping you sharp; as I know you'll do me,
Your statement:
"sins of the flesh are listed in the bible and people who practice them will not inherit the kingdom of God"

I think you may have meant, "the works of the flesh" are listed.

so works of the flesh are sins so this answers the original question for "what is sin to a believer"

 

[regibassman57]

@Dave M,
Dave take a look at my post, "WHAT IS AN UNFRUITFUL BELIEVER?," this will explain my points on this subject.

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
We’ve been talking mostly about the “whole law of the Torah, It's been fun, but i cannot continue talking about a law that I as a believer am "dead to" through the fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:17; Hebrew 10:8,9). Though it has honestly been fun, it’s fruitless.

I realize you used Matthew 5:18 to make your point. However, Jesus fulfilled “all the law” at the cross; this is what Colossian 2:14 is confirming. Once Jesus did this, a new covenant was established between God and believers (not the old)(Hebrew 8:7-10). Jesus took away the first covenant through the fulfillment of it, that He might establish the second. The second is not according to the first. The first covenant could not be taken away unless it was fulfilled. A good read for you to understand this New Covenant would be Acts 15.

James teaches; if we fulfill the Royal Law according to the scriptures, "we do well" (James 2:8). We are no longer justified by the whole Law of Moses; we are justified by Christ..

You are teaching that believers are required to keep laws that have been done away with. We as believers are dead to all the Mosaic Law (the Torah) "except" the Commandments of Love (Romans 7:1-6; Galatians 2:19). You are teaching righteousness comes by the law. Jesus is not teaching this.

Galatians. 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You are teaching believers are to keep the same laws as Israel was required to keep under the Mosaic laws. This is the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

2John 1:9
Whosoever transgresses and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The "doctrine of Christ" is not teaching believer are required to keep the whole Law of Moses.

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,
We’ve been talking mostly about the “whole law of the Torah, It's been fun, but i cannot continue talking about a law that I as a believer am "dead to" through the fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:17; Hebrew 10:8,9). Though it has honestly been fun, it’s fruitless.

I realize you used Matthew 5:18 to make your point. However, Jesus fulfilled “all the law” at the cross; this is what Colossian 2:14 is confirming. Once Jesus did this, a new covenant was established between God and believers (not the old)(Hebrew 8:7-10). Jesus took away the first covenant through the fulfillment of it, that He might establish the second. The second is not according to the first. The first covenant could not be taken away unless it was fulfilled. A good read for you to understand this New Covenant would be Acts 15.

James teaches; if we fulfill the Royal Law according to the scriptures, "we do well" (James 2:8). We are no longer justified by the whole Law of Moses; we are justified by Christ..

You are teaching that believers are required to keep laws that have been done away with. We as believers are dead to all the Mosaic Law (the Torah) "except" the Commandments of Love (Romans 7:1-6; Galatians 2:19). You are teaching righteousness comes by the law. Jesus is not teaching this.

Galatians. 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You are teaching believers are to keep the same laws as Israel was required to keep under the Mosaic laws. This is the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

2John 1:9
Whosoever transgresses and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The "doctrine of Christ" is not teaching believer are required to keep the whole Law of Moses.

Ok then....thanks for the chat!

But, as you continue to disregard Biblical considerations....I'll continue to remind you what you've disregarded! (hopefully in a friendly way, of course!)

You wrote: " It's been fun, but i cannot continue talking about a law that I as a believer am "dead to" through the fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:17; Hebrew 10:8,9). Though it has honestly been fun, it’s fruitless."

My response: No....please don't leave!

But, if you discontinue our discussion, then I'll try to catalogue, here, the many problems with your anti-Torah position which you have not properly addressed, hoping that these seeds of Biblical truth will bear fruit in your life at some point in the future.

66 PROBLEMS WITH YOUR POSITION

1. You oppose obedience to Torah. But Jesus said such opposition puts you at risk of being called least in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).
2. You are a religious person who opposes Torah. But Jesus said that religious people opposed to Torah will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23).
3. You oppose obedience to Torah. And the consequences of Torah-lessness in Mt. 13:41-42 are too awful for me to even think about.
4. You oppose obedience to the Torah which came form God's mouth. But Jesus said we live by EVERY word from God's mouth (Mt. 4:4).
5. Jesus said that we should love (Mt. 22:37) according to Dt. 6:4-5, in which context, we learn that we should love in obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
6. You claim to be "dead" to all Torah, yet Jeremiah places that very Torah into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16).
7. You claim to be "dead" to Torah, yet Jesus applies Torah directly to YOU (Mt. 22:37,39 citing Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18).
8. You claim to uphold the 10 Commandments, but obedience to the 1st commandment entails obedience to ALL the rest of Torah (yet you oppose that very Torah).
9. You routinely cite Pauline Scripture, yet you disregard the many Biblical considerations which confirm that Paul obeyed Torah and taught others to do the same.
10. The prophets (Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) routinely uphold Torah-obedience, yet you oppose the prophets by opposing the Torah which they uphold.
11. The proverbs routinely uphold Torah-obedience, thus you stand in opposition to the Proverbs as well, even though Peter and Paul quote the Proverbs as Scripture which applies to us.
12. Paul said those who obey Torah will be justified (Rom. 2:13). You oppose Torah-obedience.
13. Paul upholds the legitimacy of Gentiles who obey Torah (Rom. 2:27). You oppose Gentile Torah-obedience.
14. Paul said we should obey God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1 Ki. 2:3), yet you oppose many of God's commands.
15. Paul upholds the Psalms which uphold Torah, yet you oppose the Psalms and, thus, you oppose Paul's upholding of the Torah-obedient Psalms.
16. Paul says ALL Scripture (thus, including all TORAH) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior (2 Ti. 3:16), yet you oppose that very Torah which Paul applies to you.
17. Paul believes (thus obeys) all Torah (Ac. 24:14), but you oppose (and promote disobeying) that Torah.
18. Paul believes (thus obeys) everything in the Prophets, and the Prophets routinely uphold Torah-obedience. But you oppose that Torah-obedience which Paul modeled.
19. Paul opposed sin (Rom. 6:15); Torah-disobedience is sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7); thus, Paul opposed Torah-disobedience; thus, Paul taught Torah-OBEDIENCE. But you oppose Paul here too.
20. Paul said we should live by faithfulness ("emunah" in Hab. 2:4, cited in Gal. 3:11), and the way of "emunah" is Torah-obedience (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138). But you oppose Torah.
21. Paul condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he walked "orderly according to the law" (Ac. 21). You oppose such law-obedience.
22. Paul said that Torah-obedience from the heart IS THE WORD OF FAITH WHICH HE PREACHED (Dt. 30:14 cited at Rom. 10:8). But you oppose this Torah-obedient word Paul preached.
23. Paul affirms the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25) in which Torah is to be written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33) so that we would obey it (Dt. 30:14 cited in Rom.10:8). But you oppose New-Covenant Torah which Paul affirmed.
24. Paul said we are in the flesh or in the spirit (Rom. 8:5). The flesh DISOBEYS Torah (Rom. 8:7). The Spirit, by contrast, leads us to OBEY Torah (confirmed, also, in Heb. 10:15-16 and Eze. 36:27). But you oppose the Spirit here.
25. John said we should obey God's commands (1 Jn. 5:3) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3). But you oppose obedience to such commands.
26. Stephen (full of the Spirit and wisdom, grace, power, wonders, and signs, Ac. 6) was falsely accused of being anti-Torah (Ac. 6:13). Thus, Stephen was truly pro-Torah. Yet you oppose this Spirit-authenticated New-Covenant-era testimony of the martyr Stephen.
27. Peter applied Lev. 11 to Christians (1 Pe. 1:16), but you evidently oppose this too.
28. Jesus stated that Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28), but you have chosen to disagree with Jesus.
29. Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent his Torah-upholding Torah-teaching ministry. You, however, oppose Torah-teachers sent by Jesus.
30. Our DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon", Col. 2:14) is cancelled, not TORAH. Torah is not debt. "Torah" is "nomos" (in Greek), not "cheirographon". You have not proven that Torah is debt. Thus, you have not justified your interpretation of Col. 2:14.
31. Of COURSE Jesus fulfilled the Torah! But that's not an excuse to disobey it! "Fulfilled" does not entail "canceled" or "terminated" or "no longer in force". You haven't justified your interpretation of "fulfilled". You can fulfill your marriage covenant today, and does that fulfillment TERMINATE the marriage? Of course not! The marriage goes on!
32. Of COURSE a permanent once-for-all sacrifice (Heb. 10:10) is superior to animal sacrifices, but Torah STILL requires that they be offered (Heb. 10:8), and that same Torah passes directly into the NEW Covenant (Heb. 10:15-16).
33. Of COURSE the Old Covenant (which is obsolete, Heb. 8:13) is taken away and replaced with the second (NEW) Covenant (Heb. 10:9). But the SAME Torah passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16).
34. You evidently oppose Torah-sanctioned Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activity, but some of the 1st-century believers were animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac. 6:7). Thus, you oppose 1st-century church practice.
35. You evidently oppose Torah-sanctioned Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activity, but THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21), thus zealous for Torah sacrifices. Again, you oppose 1st-century church practice.
36. Jesus desired that the temple be a house of prayer for all nations (Mk. 11:17), citing Is. 56:7 which entails Torah-sanctioned animal sacrifices. Yet you evidently oppose those sacrifices which Jesus desires.
37. Dt. 30:1-8 is a FUTURE prophecy of 100% full Torah-obedience. Sadly, you oppose this prophecy too.
38. Ezekiel says the Spirit properly compels people to OBEY Torah (Eze. 36:27). Sadly, you oppose this function of the Spirit.
39. Ezekiel says a future temple will be replete with animal sacrifices (Eze. 40-47). Sadly, you evidently oppose this ceremonial/Levitical/sacrificial activity God guarantees for the future.
40. Isaiah says Levitical activity will be restored in the future (Is. 66). Sadly, you apparently oppose this prophecy too.
41. Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3). Sadly, you evidently oppose restoration of Levitical Torah service which Jesus comes to restore.
42. The Davidic Covenant absolutely assures the restoration of fully functioning Levitical activity (Jer. 33). Sadly, you evidently oppose this prophecy too.
43. The entire PLANET will (in the FUTURE) be required to send people to participate in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (Zec. 14). Evidently you oppose this prophecy too.
44. You wrongly assume that the character of Christ is expressed in the 10 commandments (but not the written Torah of Moses).
45. You have wrongly identified the nature of the fruit of the Spirit and its relationship to Torah. You have also evidently not addressed this problem with your position.
46. You claim "The second is not according to the first." Indeed! We Israelites widely DISOBEYED Torah in the Old Covenant (Heb. 8:9), but we will OBEY Torah from the heart (Heb. 8:10) in the New Covenant. Different covenants, same Torah! (Jer. 31:33)
47. Nothing in Ac. 15 states that believers should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER being saved through the grace of Jesus. The four rules are an entrance requirement (Ac. 15:20), not an exit exam! And, Paul (present in Ac. 15) taught and obeyed Torah (as I've shown), which you oppose, sadly.
48. Of COURSE you do well to obey Lev. 19:18 (Jas. 2:8). But James ALSO said that God's grace extends to those who are HUMBLE (Jas. 4:6); and humble people OBEY Torah (Nu. 12:3; Ps. 25:9; Zep. 2:3). But you oppose Torah.
49. Of COURSE we are justified by the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9). But that same Christ (and His apostles) teach us to obey Torah....yet you oppose Torah.
50. You have not shown me a single good reason to suppose a single law of Torah has been "done away with". And, Mt. 5:19 plainly says that if you "do away" with even the smallest of Torah commands, then you may be LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19). I don't understand why you would want to do that.
51. You say: "We as believers are dead to all the Mosaic Law (the Torah) "except" the Commandments of Love " But that's a contradiction! LOVE for God (Dt. 6:4-5) entails obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25); John agrees (1 Jn. 5:3).
52. Love for Jesus entails obedience to His commands (Jn. 14:15), and Jesus commanded obedience to His teachings (Mt. 28:19-20) which include TORAH-Teachings (Mt. 4:4; 5:19; 7:21-23; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34; Lk. 10:25-28). But you oppose this Torah-obedient love which Jesus commands.
53. Of COURSE we are dead to the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2) because we already died in Christ (Rom. 7:4) to that law (Gal. 2:19). But that's no excuse to ignore the Torah of righteousness (Dt. 6:25) and life (Dt. 30:19) which Paul applies to you (citing Dt. 30 at Rom. 10:8) and which is taught and commanded by that same Christ, as I've shown here.
54. Torah is holy (Rom. 7:12); we should be holy (1 Pe. 1:16). Thus we should obey Torah. But you oppose this Torah holiness.
55. Torah is righteous (Rom. 7:12); we should DO righteousness (1 Jn. 2:29; 3:7). Thus, we should do Torah. But you oppose this Torah righteousness.
56. Torah is good (Rom. 7:12); we should do good (Gal. 6:10); thus we should do good in obedience to Torah. But you oppose this Torah goodness.
57. Nothing in Rom. 7 states that all Christians should ignore all Torah except the "love" command. Such an interpretation fails to account for all pertinent Pauline data, as I've shown. And, the "love" command (e.g., Dt. 6:4-25) entails obedience to all Torah anyway! You must interpret ALL Pauline data consistently, not just a few passages (and then ignore others).
58. You wrote: "You are teaching righteousness comes by the law. Jesus is not teaching this." Then read Mt. 5:20 again! Our works of Torah-obedient righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees so as to enter the forthcoming kingdom.
And again, Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (which states that Torah-obedience is righteousness which we DO). Sadly, you missed this context of Dt. 6.
59. Of COURSE righteousness does not come by FAITHLESS works of law (Gal. 2:16,21). But that's no excuse to neglect your duty to FAITHFULLY do works of Torah-obedience, as required in Scripture, even by Paul (Dt. 30:14 cited in Rom. 10:8).
60. Of COURSE we oppose adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (Gal. 5:2-3), because it's not even commanded by God (1 Cor. 7:19). But that's no excuse to ignore infant circumcision which Paul never opposed (Lev. 12:3).
61. Of COURSE those who seek to be justified by law (Gal. 5:4) without faith (Gal. 5:5) are wrong! But, that's no excuse to not walk in FAITHFUL obedience to the Torah of the New Covenant in which you participate, as required by Paul (Dt. 30:14 cited by Paul in Rom. 10:8).
62. You uphold the doctrine of Christ (2 Jn. 1:9), yet that SAME CONTEXT upholds obedience to God's commands (2 Jn. 1:6) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3) which you, tragically, oppose. Thus, you don't even interpret the broader context of that passage consistently.
63. You wrote: "The "doctrine of Christ" is not teaching believer are required to keep the whole Law of Moses." So Jesus was just joking in Mt. 5:19, applying the very SMALLEST of Torah commands to you? Of course Jesus was not joking! Why do you refuse to address this passage?
64. You do try to pick a few passages from Scripture to seek to support your position, but unless you address all my Biblical objections to your interpretations, and unless you address these other problems in your position (detailed here in this post), then you have NOT done a good job of setting forth a more comprehensive and consistent Biblical theological position, relative to mine.
65. You claim our discussion is "fruitless". However, bad fruit (Mt. 7) is likened unto lawlessness (Mt. 7:21-23). Good fruit (e.g., "pistis", Gal. 5:22-23) is from TORAH ("pistis" in Mt. 23:23, commanded by Jesus). So, I set before you the FRUITFUL benefits of growing in faithful obedience to Torah, as required by God, the Messiah, the Spirit, the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles, Gospels, Hebrews, even in Revelation.
666. The antichrist desires Torah-lessness (2 Th. 2:3). You also seek to promote an anti-Torah viewpoint. Yikes! Please stop working for the wrong team!


Our discussion is potentially ENORMOUSLY fruitful, if only you would be willing to test your position against the Biblical counter-arguments I've set forth.

And, I've barely scratched the surface regarding the mountain of evidence which overwhelmingly confirms my position over yours.

Sadly, it appears you may be showing signs of walking away from our discussion.

Thus, you're evidently not even interested in testing your position against a Biblically-grounded alternative view.

I'm saddened. I would think you would desire that iron sharpens iron.

Instead, I fear you are running away.

But I won't run away. I'll happily address whatever Scriptural concerns you have.

So, are you SURE you want to oppose God, the Messiah, the Spirit, the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles, Gospels, Hebrews, even Revelation, so as to hold onto your unbiblical lawlessness?

ok....hope to hear from you.

blessings.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
If you answer this question I may consider continuing the chat with you.

What is Colossians 2:14 sayhing?

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
If you answer this question I may consider continuing the chat with you.

What is Colossians 2:14 sayhing?

Hi! Ok...I'll try not to scare you away....let's see.....Col. 2:14.

I think I already discussed it. But I'll be happy to say again: Col. 2:14 discusses the fact that our DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon") has been canceled.

Sin incurs a debt which needs to be repayed. But, none of us can pay our own debt for our own sins.

Only Jesus is the perfect spotless Lamb of God who laid down His life for us, taking the punishment we deserve for the sins we have committed.

Thus, Jesus has paid the debt! Our debt is, thus CANCELED!

Our debt (not the Torah!) was nailed to the cross.

Is TORAH a debt? Of course not. Paul never said that. Paul never said the Torah was canceled.

Paul said the DEBT was canceled.

Hope that's what you're looking for....

blessings...

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
You are 70 years old... I'm sure you have wisdom and understand what I'm getting at.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
Where are you gettting "debt" from when you read "Colossians 2:14?"

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
The Greek definition for "ordinances":

G1378 (ordinances)
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

This is what was blotted out on the cross.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
Where do I find the scriptures about the debt being paid without sin being taken away? Help me with that one.

I truly do not understand how we are "saved from sin," we still sin, but the cause of the penalty (sin) has not been taken away. And I'm told Jesus took away the penalty without taking away the sin? Makes no sense because I cannot find any scripture on it.

 

[bibleguy]

Hi! Ok...I'll try not to scare you away....let's see.....Col. 2:14.

I think I already discussed it. But I'll be happy to say again: Col. 2:14 discusses the fact that our DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon") has been canceled.

Sin incurs a debt which needs to be repayed. But, none of us can pay our own debt for our own sins.

Only Jesus is the perfect spotless Lamb of God who laid down His life for us, taking the punishment we deserve for the sins we have committed.

Thus, Jesus has paid the debt! Our debt is, thus CANCELED!

Our debt (not the Torah!) was nailed to the cross.

Is TORAH a debt? Of course not. Paul never said that. Paul never said the Torah was canceled.

Paul said the DEBT was canceled.

Hope that's what you're looking for....

blessings...

Bibleguy,
Where are you gettting "debt" from when you read "Colossians 2:14?"

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Hi! Thanks for asking! It comes from G5498. Greek "cheirographon" (χειρόγραφον). It's a certificate of debt. A hand-written debt. A DEBT.

It's not Torah.

Paul uses "dogma" (i.e., "decrees" or "ordinances") in Col. 2:14 to refer to this certificate of debt.

"Dogma" (Gr. "δόγμα") NEVER refers to Torah ANYWHERE throughout the LXX or NT. Go ahead and do a word-study to prove it.

I'll address any δόγμα usage anywhere in the Bible, if you like. Just bring up whichever occurrence of δόγμα concerns you, if you like.

blessings...

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy
I do not see the connection with "debt." These are the Greek definitions from the "Strongs" and it says nothing about debt. The Greek for "ordinances" G1378 is accurate according to Colossian 2:14:

This is the Greek for “G5498” (handwriting)

G5498
χειρόγραφον
cheirographon
khi-rog'-raf-on
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.

This is the Greek for “G1378” (ordinance)
G1378
Dogma
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

It seem to say the ordinances (the law) was nailed to the cross. Says nothing about debt?