What is the best analogy to explain the Trinity?

[MedicBravo]

About to go to work.
Enjoy! (Not mine)

 

[Hekuran]

Very clear and balanced. And I appreciate that he explains where his preferred analogy falls short as well as where it's helpful. Statisticians like saying, "all models are wrong, some are useful". We can say the same thing when talking theology.

 

[Beetow]

~
Typical demigods are 50% human and 50% divine, whereas the second person of
the Trinity is 100% human and 100% divine, i.e. the second person exists as two
distinctly dissimilar beings simultaneously: the one an eternal spirit being with no
discernible origin, and the other a temporal material being whose origin can be
easily traced to Adam and the very dust with which Adam was constructed.
_

 

[Butch5]

About to go to work.
Enjoy! (Not mine)

I'm always amazed at how people keeping trying to explain a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy can't be explained. That's why it's a logical fallacy. The Trinity is a Catholic doctrine from the 5th century. It's not found anywhere in Scripture.

 

[MedicBravo]

I'm always amazed at how people keeping trying to explain a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy can't be explained. That's why it's a logical fallacy. The Trinity is a Catholic doctrine from the 5th century. It's not found anywhere in Scripture.

Lots of things aren't "Found in scripture." That doesn't mean the thing, person, or concept doesn't exist.
SIMPLE.
God Yahweh IS a Triune God.
We (humans) label and group everything.
The Bible can't contain every single issue in all of humanity since Time began.
Ex: God set the human standard with Adam and Eve. One man to one woman. Married.
Anything that is NOT the standard: Alphabet people, transgenders, trans-trenders, TRAPS, all this "I identify as...." mental illness garbage nonsense isn't "in Scripture" but God have everyone a brain and this thing one can easily learn called "Inference" and "most logical reason" to discern that all that and much more is abnormal, sin, and evil.
Homosexuality IS mentioned and as some idiots would argue only in this "specific way". Absurd.

 

[Butch5]

Lots of things aren't "Found in scripture." That doesn't mean the thing, person, or concept doesn't exist.
SIMPLE.
God Yahweh IS a Triune God.
We (humans) label and group everything.
The Bible can't contain every single issue in all of humanity since Time began.
Ex: God set the human standard with Adam and Eve. One man to one woman. Married.
Anything that is NOT the standard: Alphabet people, transgenders, trans-trenders, TRAPS, all this "I identify as...." mental illness garbage nonsense isn't "in Scripture" but God have everyone a brain and this thing one can easily learn called "Inference" and "most logical reason" to discern that all that and much more is abnormal, sin, and evil.
Homosexuality IS mentioned and as some idiots would argue only in this "specific way". Absurd.

I agree that not being found in Scripture doesn't mean something doesn't exist. However, if we're going to claim it's a Biblical doctrine, or that Scripture teaches it, then we probably should find it in Scripture. You said Yahweh is a triune God. Can you establish that from Scripture? As I said previously, the concept of the Trinity is a logical contradiction.

I agree also that God gave everyone a brain. Thus we should acknowledge the logical contradiction. We are given the ability to reason. It's stands to reason that no matter what we say, or how we try to manipulate it, three people simply can't be one person. If you worked for me and I said I'd pay you $900 a week and then on Friday I gave you three hundred one dollar bills and told you that each of those bills was a trinity and was actually three dollars in one bill, you won't accept that for a second. You'd be looking for your other $600. If you wouldn't believe that with something a trial as money, why would you believe it about something as important as God?

 

[Christ4Ever]

(Heavy sigh)
Here we go again! Man trying to reason who God is, by a corrupted reasoning process without the Word of God.
@Butch5
You say that no matter what we say, or how we try to manipulate it, three people simply can't be one person.
So, riddle me this. When a man marries a woman, they become one flesh.

Genesis 2:24
Ephesians 5:31
Mark 10:8

You do not even need marriage for this!!!

1 Corinthians 6:16

But are they not still separate beings??? How can they be one flesh? Especially when one means one, and flesh, means flesh. (scratching my head)

So, using human reasoning outside of the Word of God, Holy Spirit is not all it's cracked up to be...unless you put it through word gymnastics so it can be understood outside the Word of God.

I added a vid that had a nice graph in showing what is meant by the Trinity. It also provided some scripture that showed the Godhead of 3 without going to the gym, that God is 3 in Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why do I believe this is so, for He says so.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[lentz]

I agree that not being found in Scripture doesn't mean something doesn't exist. However, if we're going to claim it's a Biblical doctrine, or that Scripture teaches it, then we probably should find it in Scripture. You said Yahweh is a triune God. Can you establish that from Scripture? As I said previously, the concept of the Trinity is a logical contradiction.

I agree also that God gave everyone a brain. Thus we should acknowledge the logical contradiction. We are given the ability to reason. It's stands to reason that no matter what we say, or how we try to manipulate it, three people simply can't be one person. If you worked for me and I said I'd pay you $900 a week and then on Friday I gave you three hundred one dollar bills and told you that each of those bills was a trinity and was actually three dollars in one bill, you won't accept that for a second. You'd be looking for your other $600. If you wouldn't believe that with something a trial as money, why would you believe it about something as important as God?

When God said “sit here on my right hand”,that should settle the question. It does for me anyway. Unless you think God is like Biden and talks to himself

 

[Butch5]

(Heavy sigh)
Here we go again! Man trying to reason who God is, by a corrupted reasoning process without the Word of God.
@Butch5
You say that no matter what we say, or how we try to manipulate it, three people simply can't be one person.
So, riddle me this. When a man marries a woman, they become one flesh.

Genesis 2:24
Ephesians 5:31
Mark 10:8

You do not even need marriage for this!!!

1 Corinthians 6:16

But are they not still separate beings??? How can they be one flesh? Especially when one means one, and flesh, means flesh. (scratching my head)

So, using human reasoning outside of the Word of God, Holy Spirit is not all it's cracked up to be...unless you put it through word gymnastics so it can be understood outside the Word of God.

I added a vid that had a nice graph in showing what is meant by the Trinity. It also provided some scripture that showed the Godhead of 3 without going to the gym, that God is 3 in Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why do I believe this is so, for He says so.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Interesting concept Nick. However, the whole Trinity doctrine is man's reasoning without God's word. it's a 5th century Catholic doctrine. Why did it take 400 years for them to figure it out? There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of a Trinity. There is nothing that says God is three in one. The Johanan Comma is not original. God created the human mind and He said to Israel. come, let's reason together. Reason. There is nothing reasonable about the doctrine. it's totally illogical. However, The bible does speak to the nature of God. Paul said there is one God, the Father. Paul also spoke of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. How exactly can God have Father, be His own Father, and have a God? One can't be their own father and one can't be their own son. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. If Jesus said that then He's stating that He is not the true God. The Shema says, God is one. It doesn's say God is three. There are so many passages of Scripture that disprove the doctrine that it amazes me that Christians choose this as a hill to die on.

How can Adam and Eve become one flesh. That's quite easy. They can do it through procreation. They can also do it through unity. Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one. Was He praying that all of His followers would somehow morph into a single being? Or, was He praying that they would be unified?

 

[Butch5]

When God said “sit here on my right hand”,that should settle the question. It does for me anyway. Unless you think God is like Biden and talks to himself

Agreed. There are sooooo many passages of Scripture like that. The fact that those who codified the doctrine had to write this along with it speaks volumes.

This is how they started the creed.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

So, before they say anything about the Trintiy, they say if you don't believe what we say, you can't be saved. So, they start the creed off with a threat. So, if one doubts the Trinity they can't be saved. Then they end the creed with a reminder.

" This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

The Catholic Faith that they are referring to is the Trinity doctrine they just tried to explain. I say tried because the creed contains contradictions. But, the whole point is, if you have to threaten people to make them believe something there's a problem. The threat is probably there for those who see and would challenge the obvious contradictions. If the doctrine made sense there would be need to threaten people.. They would accept it because it makes sense. However, because what they said clearly doesn't make sense, to keep people from challenging them, they made a threat. If you don't believe us you can't be saved. I wonder if all of those people who died before the creed was written were saved. After all, they knew nothing of the creed.

 

[lentz]

Agreed. There are sooooo many passages of Scripture like that. The fact that those who codified the doctrine had to write this along with it speaks volumes.

This is how they started the creed.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

So, before they say anything about the Trintiy, they say if you don't believe what we say, you can't be saved. So, they start the creed off with a threat. So, if one doubts the Trinity they can't be saved. Then they end the creed with a reminder.

" This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

The Catholic Faith that they are referring to is the Trinity doctrine they just tried to explain. I say tried because the creed contains contradictions. But, the whole point is, if you have to threaten people to make them believe something there's a problem. The threat is probably there for those who see and would challenge the obvious contradictions. If the doctrine made sense there would be need to threaten people.. They would accept it because it makes sense. However, because what they said clearly doesn't make sense, to keep people from challenging them, they made a threat. If you don't believe us you can't be saved. I wonder if all of those people who died before the creed was written were saved. After all, they knew nothing of the creed.

Jesus (1) says I will ask the Father (2) and he will send the Comforter (3). I would call that a trinity

 

[Christ4Ever]

Interesting concept Nick. However, the whole Trinity doctrine is man's reasoning without God's word. it's a 5th century Catholic doctrine. Why did it take 400 years for them to figure it out? There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of a Trinity. There is nothing that says God is three in one. The Johanan Comma is not original. God created the human mind and He said to Israel. come, let's reason together. Reason. There is nothing reasonable about the doctrine. it's totally illogical. However, The bible does speak to the nature of God. Paul said there is one God, the Father. Paul also spoke of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. How exactly can God have Father, be His own Father, and have a God? One can't be their own father and one can't be their own son. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. If Jesus said that then He's stating that He is not the true God. The Shema says, God is one. It doesn's say God is three. There are so many passages of Scripture that disprove the doctrine that it amazes me that Christians choose this as a hill to die on.

How can Adam and Eve become one flesh. That's quite easy. They can do it through procreation. They can also do it through unity. Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one. Was He praying that all of His followers would somehow morph into a single being? Or, was He praying that they would be unified?

Dear Butch5,

Isaiah 43:10
Isaiah 44:6-8
Isaiah 48:16

In my mentioning of marriage or the coming together of man & woman was only to show you that what you say is interesting conjecture on how God see's the coming together of man & woman from 2 to 1 as your example of why God cannot be 3, but you not mentioning the Scripture verses that tie it to procreation as a definition of the "one flesh" does nothing to further enlighten us to knowing if what you are using/saying is true. However, to give you the benefit of the doubt to what you are saying, it then begs the question of what about those who have no children? Are they somehow absent from being of one flesh for the lack thereof? I do not believe that to be the case.

Yet, the man & woman united become one flesh who were two. The word gymnastics you have tried seems out of place. Why must you use "morph into a single being" to be the end result or to explain 2 into 1? Is it possible that it is something else entirely unknown to man's reasoning? Maybe the totality of man & woman in the flesh that includes the spirit?

I toss this out there to you because when scripture describes something that humanity does not have the ability in words to explain, they come up with words in order to do so! Kind of like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

Which is what has happened with other doctrines, and not just with the use of the Word Trinity or the Doctrine of the Trinity. It helps to explain what is seen in Scripture as existing, but which Scripture does not give the singular word in describing it. Yet, because it is not given a word of description in Scripture does not mean that concept/doctrine is wrong.

I am sure you have looked at the verses mentioned by me above, and am curious of how many personages can be identified in their readings by you?

While you do that, you might also look to Zechariah 12:1-10. You will notice I'm sure a lot of "i's" being used. Is this being spoken of as God, the preincarnate Jesus, or as some would say a Christophany?

Now you can look at the Baptism of Jesus at the Jordan, by John the Baptist. Again, how many personages are identified in these verses as "being" at the same time, who are without fault and consistent in all four Gospels.

Matthew 3:16-17
Luke 3:21-22
Mark 1:10-11
John 1:32-34

As far as Scripture verses disproving it. I'd disagree. People will see what they want to see, even to removing what is being said out of context to what is written.
It is as if when Scripture speaks of God the Father, if it doesn't mention God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, that somehow the other parts of the Godhead cease to exist! This is prevalent in what is called the "Oneness" Theology. If you don't know about them, you should check it out. Sadly, you might even agree with them!

That being said, the same can be said for each co-equal part of the Godhead. Meaning that if just God is mentioned that it must be God the Father, instead of just God as in Father, Son, Holy Spirit. One must always keep in mind the context of what is being written. In other words, the Who, What, When, How, Why of Scripture. Jesus talking of His Father, and always doing what He sees speaks to a Godhead that is as close as I can tell is hierarchal. Yet, always, I say again, always in agreement. Of the same essence meaning characteristics, co-eternal, and to break it down even more. If you could if it were possible to take any of the three away, you will not then have God! Each part of Scripture that each is mentioned, remove them as an exercise is something you should do. Then tell me what you have, and if there is any coherence in what is being said, that is, if anything is being said!

Too often Jesus is seen as the weak link in all this, because He was the first begotten Son of God. It is like Jesus had no existence prior to this point in time. Which one can see throughout the OT is not the case, and so the use of Christophany for showing Jesus' presence at different times in the OT. That He wasn't called Jesus, okay, but how many names does He have or is identified as being?

Then the Holy Spirit, is easy to set aside too, because He is perceived as only a "force", a conveyance for the will of God the Father, or God the Son if you will, with no characteristics of identity so to speak. Again, anything in Scripture that speaks to decision making/identity of self by the Holy Spirit is skipped/glossed over. We do not really even know how the Holy Spirit does what He does, nor any other parts of the Godhead for that matter, but we somehow know He is not God! lol

I am sure that much of what is being said, doesn't make sense to you, but then when has the workings of God, made sense to the imperfect/sinful man, which is everyman?

If this at least gives you pause or provides you something to chew on so to speak. Then all to the good. We should always be searching, seeking, to know God, because that is what Eternity is for don't you know!

God bless to you and yours.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

The 'no debate' verse in scripture that speaks to the trinity is Isa 9:6.

''For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.''

@Butch5 disagrees with the interpretation of every current existing version of the bible on this verse. CSB, ESV, KJV, MSG, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRS, NAS, ASV, BBE, CEB, CJB, DBY, GNT, GW, HNV, JUB, LEB, NCV, NIRV, RHE, RSV, TMB, VUL, WBT, WEB, WYC, YLT.

I'm always amazed at how people keeping trying to explain a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy can't be explained. That's why it's a logical fallacy. The Trinity is a Catholic doctrine from the 5th century. It's not found anywhere in Scripture.

A logical fallacy for a non Christian perhaps. A Christian, should know that God 'swiftly annihilates' all 'His' people that serve a different God to.......Him.

It's not found anywhere in Scripture.

Error. The 'word' trinity is found nowhere. The concept for which the word was given, is.

These scriptures have been given to you numerous times.

The only space I can see discussion with someone who rejects the 29 versions of scripture, is perhaps a discussion on logic. So here goes.

Question:

According to scripture, does God warn and annihilate all 'His people' who serve a different God to Him. Yes or No?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus (1) says I will ask the Father (2) and he will send the Comforter (3). I would call that a trinity

A trinity of what?

 

[lentz]

A trinity of what?

Butch I always thought you were brighter than this.
Your bulb is dimming

 

[Butch5]

Butch I always thought you were brighter than this.
Your bulb is dimming

I just don't want to make assumptions. I hear so many different descriptions of the Trinity that it's hard to remember who believes what.

 

[Butch5]

I just wonder why we believe this doctrine. We don't find it in Scripture. We don't find it in early church history. We don't find it until its appearance in the Catholic Church. There are a lot of things the Catholic Church believes that we don't. Why do we believe this one?

It would be one thing if it was just a matter of not finding it in Scripture. But, the Scriptures actually refute the idea.

 

[MedicBravo]

I agree that not being found in Scripture doesn't mean something doesn't exist. However, if we're going to claim it's a Biblical doctrine, or that Scripture teaches it, then we probably should find it in Scripture. You said Yahweh is a triune God. Can you establish that from Scripture? As I said previously, the concept of the Trinity is a logical contradiction.

I agree also that God gave everyone a brain. Thus we should acknowledge the logical contradiction. We are given the ability to reason. It's stands to reason that no matter what we say, or how we try to manipulate it, three people simply can't be one person. If you worked for me and I said I'd pay you $900 a week and then on Friday I gave you three hundred one dollar bills and told you that each of those bills was a trinity and was actually three dollars in one bill, you won't accept that for a second. You'd be looking for your other $600. If you wouldn't believe that with something a trial as money, why would you believe it about something as important as God?

"the concept of the Trinity is a logical contradiction." That's where you're wrong.

What Does It Mean that God is Triune? - Bibles.net

This is an excerpt about God being triune from Nancy Taylor and Phil Ryken's book, "God Is Real: Encountering the Almighty."

www.bibles.net

Your comparison is horrible.
God is many things and most of those things are so far outside your/our mortal, flawed thinking meat you'll never understand it.
Money is a finite, limited, material object.
God is an infinite, unlimited in all aspects, immaterial/spiritual Objective being yet can and does affect all of Creation.
God is a Triune God.
That link shows the truth.
I'll type it here for you and others:

1. The Father is God.
2. The Son is God.
3. The Spirit is God.
4. The Father is not the Son or the Spirit.
5. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
6. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
7. There is only one God.

 

[Butch5]

"the concept of the Trinity is a logical contradiction." That's where you're wrong.

What Does It Mean that God is Triune? - Bibles.net

This is an excerpt about God being triune from Nancy Taylor and Phil Ryken's book, "God Is Real: Encountering the Almighty."

www.bibles.net

Your comparison is horrible.
God is many things and most of those things are so far outside your/our mortal, flawed thinking meat you'll never understand it.
Money is a finite, limited, material object.
God is an infinite, unlimited in all aspects, immaterial/spiritual Objective being yet can and does affect all of Creation.
God is a Triune God.
That link shows the truth.
I'll type it here for you and others:

1. The Father is God.
2. The Son is God.
3. The Spirit is God.
4. The Father is not the Son or the Spirit.
5. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
6. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
7. There is only one God.

Do you realize the same same flawed thinking meat that you described above came up with the Trinity doctrine?

There is not a single sentence in the Bible that suggests a Trinity. However, that idea is refuted in quite a few passages of Scripture.

You can, like multitudes before you, try to explain the logical fallacy. However, like the others, you will never reach a logical conclusion.

 

[B-A-C]

There is not a single sentence in the Bible that suggests a Trinity.

Who created the Earth, the heavens, and well... everything?