What is the best analogy to explain the Trinity?

[Butch5]

It's a fact that there is a difference of opinion in what Scriptural context is saying.

When it comes to context with a name and an action, as I have shown, it comes down to common sense.

But I also have to say that common sense to one is not common sense to another.

So it seems we disagree.

If the Holy Spirit is a third person, why did Jesus say it was the Father?

 

[Charlie24]

Consider these passages.

Romans 8:19 (NKJV): 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Romans 8:22 (NKJV): 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

The creation isn't a person or alive and yet Paul says it has an expectation and eagerly awaits. How can that be? He says the creation groans and labors. How can that be?

It's obviously figurative language. Why couldn't Scripture use the same language of the Spirit? I mean, the word spirit is, itself, a figurative definition of the Greek and Hebrew words for wind.

Paul is referring to all of creation suffering from the fall of man into sin. The resurrection will bring an end to this misery.

The creation Paul is speaking of includes man, even the animals know something is wrong and suffer because of man's sin.

This is not figurative, it is literal.

 

[Charlie24]

If the Holy Spirit is a third person, why did Jesus say it was the Father?

You have made an error, show me the Scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

The Nicene Creed does not agree with the modern doctrine if the Trinity.

I notice you conveneintly left out this part.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,

 

[Butch5]

Paul is referring to all of creation suffering from the fall of man into sin. The resurrection will bring an end to this misery.

The creation Paul is speaking of includes man, even the animals know something is wrong and suffer because of man's sin.

This is not figurative, it is literal.

It's literal? Where can I go and listen to the rocks groaning? If I go to the beach can I hear the ocean crying out in pain?

 

[Butch5]

I notice you conveneintly left out this part.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,

I didn't leave it out. I posted it. I said the word translated "from" is "ek". It means to come out of. They believe that God came out of God. What do they mean by that?

I believe in one God,

The Father almighty,

Maker of heaven and earth,

Of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,

The Only Begotten Son of God,

Born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light,

True God from true God,

Begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
consubstantial means of the same essence. So what they mean by God out of God is whatever the essence of the Father is the Son is also that same essense. That makes perfect sense if He came out of God. The fact that they say He came out of God proves He's completely separate. It shows a distinction where the Trinity doctrine claims they are one. That Jesus was the essense as God can be seen in Scripture.

Philippians 2:5–8 (ESV): 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Paul says, Jesus was in the form of God and emptied Himself. So, yeah, He was if the same essence as the Father.

 

[Charlie24]

It's literal? Where can I go and listen to the rocks groaning? If I go to the beach can I hear the ocean crying out in pain?

All of creation is suffering because of man's sin, everything that lives is suffering.

We don't know all of the misery that animals, and even plant life suffer in this present world.

So when Paul says that all of creation groans and is in pain, he literally means it.

But we can rest assured that God knows all of the suffering in this world, not only of mankind.

Nothing in this world is as God originally created it because of man's sin.

This includes both animate and inanimate, conscience life and that which has no conscious life.

 

[Butch5]

All of creation is suffering because of man's sin, everything that lives is suffering.

We don't know all of the misery that animals, and even plant life suffer in this present world.

So when Paul says that all of creation groans and is in pain, he literally means it.

But we can rest assured that God knows all of the suffering in this world, not only of mankind.

Nothing in this world is as God originally created it because of man's sin.

This includes both animate and inanimate, conscience life and that which has no conscious life.

Sure, the suffering is literal. The language isn't. The rocks aren't literally groaning. He's using figurative language to make a point. The same could be said about grieving the Spirit. How does one grieving wind? Can that be done or is that figurative language?

 

[Charlie24]

Sure, the suffering is literal. The language isn't. The rocks aren't literally groaning. He's using figurative language to make a point. The same could be said about grieving the Spirit. How does one grieving wind? Can that be done or is that figurative language?

Everything in this world is in bondage to man's sin. How do you know the animals, rocks and plant life are not crying out to God as man does for relief?

Did you create all these things? Do you have the understanding with all these things that God has?

Man is only part of creation that groans in pain, how do you know the rest of creation, as Paul said, doesn't have a way to groan in pain?

 

[Butch5]

Everything in this world is in bondage to man's sin. How do you know the animals, rocks and plant life are not crying out to God as man does for relief?

Did you create all these things? Do you have the understanding with all these things that God has?

Man is only part of creation that groans in pain, how do you know the rest of creation, as Paul said, doesn't have a way to groan in pain?

Are you taking the argument to absurdity?

 

[Charlie24]

Are you taking the argument to absurdity?

Well, I was thinking you were doing that.

At the same time you have avoided the subject at hand.

You know, the Holy Spirit being a person, a member of the Triune Godhead.

 

[Butch5]

Why is it that when speaking of God rationale is the first casualty?

 

[Butch5]

Well, I was thinking you were doing that.

At the same time you have avoided the subject at hand.

You know, the Holy Spirit being a person, a member of the Triune Godhead.

By pointing figurative language?

No, I don't know the Holy Spirit is a third person. There's nothing in Scripture that would lead to that conclusion.

 

[Charlie24]

Why is it that when speaking of God rationale is the first casualty?

By pointing figurative language?

No, I don't know the Holy Spirit is a third person. There's nothing in Scripture that would lead to that conclusion.

If you can't see from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person and Deity, it's because you have chosen not to believe it.

I have proof of His personage and His Deity from the Scripture and I chose to believe it.

 

[Butch5]

Here's the Athanasian Creed. This is where th le Trinit doctrine comes from. This is where it was codified. Good luck making sense of it.


Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

 

[Butch5]

If you can't see from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person and Deity, it's because you have chosen not to believe it.

I have proof of His personage and His Deity from the Scripture and I chose to believe it.

Hold on. You said a third person. You've produced nothing to suggest a third person. This, "it's because you have chosen not to believe it."
Is nonsense. If you have a case please make it. But this nonsense isn't conducive to progress.

 

[Charlie24]

Hold on. You said a third person. You've produced nothing to suggest a third person. This, "it's because you have chosen not to believe it."
Is nonsense. If you have a case please make it. But this nonsense isn't conducive to progress.

He is the third person because He is the third person in Scripture that possesses the power of Deity.

He is the One that John includes in name with the Father and the Son.

He is the One that you are denying to be equal with the Father and the Son.

That is dangerous ground for a self proclaimed believer to be walking on.

 

[Butch5]

He is the third person because He is the third person in Scripture that possesses the power of Deity.

He is the One that John includes in name with the Father and the Son.

He is the One that you are denying to be equal with the Father and the Son.

That is dangerous ground for a self proclaimed believer to be walking on.

You've said that. But you've not given any Scripture to support it.

How is denying a 5th century Catholic doctrine dangerous ground?

It seems to me the opposite would be true. God said, there is no other God besides me. Yet, your doctrine has two others that are supposedly equal with Him. The doctrine robs God of His uniqueness and His glory. Instead of the Father being God alone, the doctrine has two others that are supposedly equal, thus saying He is not unique and must share His glory with two others. That seems lime the dangerous ground to me.

 

[lentz]

You've said that. But you've not given any Scripture to support it.

How is denying a 5th century Catholic doctrine dangerous ground?

It seems to me the opposite would be true. God said, there is no other God besides me. Yet, your doctrine has two others that are supposedly equal with Him. The doctrine robs God of His uniqueness and His glory. Instead of the Father being God alone, the doctrine has two others that are supposedly equal, thus saying He is not unique and must share His glory with two others. That seems lime the dangerous ground to me.

Paul in one of his epistles,said Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God

 

[Butch5]

Paul in one of his epistles,said Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God

That text is open for debate. It depends on who translates it.

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2:5–8 (ESV): 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

It depends on which text you look at.