What Is The Mark Of The Beast?

[DHC]

Thank you DHC for your reply.
Historicism
I am that of the Reformers ... historicism

Hello Canada.

Regarding the Historicism approach to Eschatology, you would be advised to read the following article.

BibleStudiesTools (website)

The key problem for historicism is the need to constrain the events of the book of Revelation into the historic mold
brought to the text by the interpreter. Since different interpreters give priority and attention to different historical events
or geographical regions, the results predictably vary. Moreover, when the chain of events of the book mismatch those of
the historic period, there is the need to leave literal interpretation for the flexibility of spiritual interpretation. Thus, an
inconsistent interpretive approach results. John Hendrik de Vries decries the historical method of interpretation:
“It turns exegesis into an artful play of ingenuity.”

Historicism is not very popular today. This is partly because of its consistent failure to account for the actual events of history
to our own time. The variation in results obtained by proponents has also been so great that it tends to invalidate the approach.
Osborne lists a number of weaknesses of the system, including:

(1) an identification only with Western Church history;
(2) the inherent speculation involved in the parallels with world history;
(3) the fact that it must be reworked with each new period of world history.

The historicist position, suffers from the inability of interpreters of this school to establish a specific verifiable criterion of judgment
whereby positive identification for the fulfillment of specific prophecies can be proved to be historically fulfilled by specific events
in world history, in historical instances of fulfillment to which most of the interpreters of this school could agree. The method requires
the student of Revelation to go outside the Bible and seek for the fulfillment of predictions in the past events of world history, and to one
not well taught in history the method is impossible to carry out, leaving the book of Revelation largely closed to the ordinary reader.

The historical interpreters differ so much among themselves that we may well ask, which one of them are we to believe? It is this very diversity
which has caused so many earnest students to put the Apocalypse aside in despair.

Modern advocates of historicism include the Seventh-Day Adventists and the followers of the late David Koresh of Waco, Texas.

 

[RJ]

• I think the most important thing about "Mark of the Beast" is that it would be some type of, maybe symbolic, designation that one has fallen in with Satin.
• If your still around at that time, don't fall in with Satin.

 

[farout]

• I think the most important thing about "Mark of the Beast" is that it would be some type of, maybe symbolic, designation that one has fallen in with Satin.
• If your still around at that time, don't fall in with Satin.

One of my Professors thought the marks had symbolsic meanings. The forehead, means the mind, the hands means how we earn our living. It all stands for being sold out and in controlled by the evil one of this world. If our country continues as it has the last five years we just might be there by next election time.

 

[DHC]

The forehead, means the mind, the hands means how we earn our living. It all stands for being sold out and in controlled by the evil one of this world.

Hello farout.

Your explanation is parallel to Chad's description of the mark. Chad posted a thread entitled 'mark of the beast'
and in that thread Chad offered the following explanation;

In the Scriptures, "six" is the number representing man, so 666 stands for man at his highest level apart from God.
That 666 is marked on the right hands and the foreheads representing conformity to the image of the beast, thinking
Satan's thoughts and with the hands doing his evil works.

Interesting interpretation of the scripture regarding 'the mark'.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been
beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the
beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years.

The text above states 'and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand'. Notice that they 'received'
the mark and it is placed on the forehead or hand, i.e., it is a visible mark and it is positioned on the forehead or hand.
The text implies a visible, physical mark, representing allegiance to the beast. The mark was not inherent in the mind
because the text states 'forehead'. All through human history marks of different descriptions have been placed on
the foreheads of followers. Even Catholics wear a mark on the forehead made out of ash during lent I think. The way
of the world or the way of satan if you wish, has been the literal marking of the followers. Why would the kingdom of
the antichrist be any different to the course of history and badges of allegiance?

 

[Last Things]

Hello farout.

Your explanation is parallel to Chad's description of the mark. Chad posted a thread entitled 'mark of the beast'
and in that thread Chad offered the following explanation;

In the Scriptures, "six" is the number representing man, so 666 stands for man at his highest level apart from God.
That 666 is marked on the right hands and the foreheads representing conformity to the image of the beast, thinking
Satan's thoughts and with the hands doing his evil works.

Interesting interpretation of the scripture regarding 'the mark'.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been
beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the
beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years.

The text above states 'and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand'. Notice that they 'received'
the mark and it is placed on the forehead or hand, i.e., it is a visible mark and it is positioned on the forehead or hand.
The text implies a visible, physical mark, representing allegiance to the beast. The mark was not inherent in the mind
because the text states 'forehead'. All through human history marks of different descriptions have been placed on
the foreheads of followers. Even Catholics wear a mark on the forehead made out of ash during lent I think. The way
of the world or the way of satan if you wish, has been the literal marking of the followers. Why would the kingdom of
the antichrist be any different to the course of history and badges of allegiance?

Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists and others have an optional service available on one particular day in which some have ashes crossed on their forehead. It goes away in about an hour. Hardly a mark on the forehead and hands.

 

[Last Things]

Hello farout.

Your explanation is parallel to Chad's description of the mark. Chad posted a thread entitled 'mark of the beast'
and in that thread Chad offered the following explanation;

In the Scriptures, "six" is the number representing man, so 666 stands for man at his highest level apart from God.
That 666 is marked on the right hands and the foreheads representing conformity to the image of the beast, thinking
Satan's thoughts and with the hands doing his evil works.

Interesting interpretation of the scripture regarding 'the mark'.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been
beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the
beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years.

The text above states 'and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand'. Notice that they 'received'
the mark and it is placed on the forehead or hand, i.e., it is a visible mark and it is positioned on the forehead or hand.
The text implies a visible, physical mark, representing allegiance to the beast. The mark was not inherent in the mind
because the text states 'forehead'. All through human history marks of different descriptions have been placed on
the foreheads of followers. Even Catholics wear a mark on the forehead made out of ash during lent I think. The way
of the world or the way of satan if you wish, has been the literal marking of the followers. Why would the kingdom of
the antichrist be any different to the course of history and badges of allegiance?

Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists and others have an optional service available on one particular day in which some have ashes crossed on their forehead. It goes away in about an hour. Hardly a mark on the forehead and hands worn by almost all people

 

[RJ]

One of my Professors thought the marks had symbolsic meanings. The forehead, means the mind, the hands means how we earn our living. It all stands for being sold out and in controlled by the evil one of this world. If our country continues as it has the last five years we just might be there by next election time.

• Well I am 65 and I know we are much closer than we used to be!
• Of course no one knows when but the signs will tell that we may well be in the "end-times"...how long is that?
• The Bible talks about.."In the Days of Noah" and "In the Days of Lott" so shall it be before the coming of the "Son of Man". Since I was a young boy, the degradation on man has sunk to an all time low, so that should say something about the times we are in.
• Yes, I have read that the "mark of the beast" is symbolic. The mark on the forehead is a person who has turned his mind toward Satin. And the "mark on the hand" is symbolic of one who helps others to come to Satin. If we are even here when that happens, a true Christian won't do that.
• But, I always say it is a mute point, we all come to our own Armageddon the day we die! Thanks be to God that Chrit lives in me!

 

[Strypes]

Ash Wednesday is March 5th (next Wednesday).

 

[canada]

Hello DHC,

You have yet to divulge which of the five standard systems of interpretation you hold to.
However, you did have negative things to say about historicism ... equating it with 7thDay Adventists and David Korasch of the Branch Davidians.

You omitted Mormons who I believe hold to this understanding. Were you not aware of that?
I would be very interested in knowing your personal eschatological system of interpretation of the remaining four: full preterism partial preterism futurism idealism

You also equated "gematria" with paganism. I asked if you thought the numbering of the beast was to use a pagan system to count the 666 beast, but no answer from you as yet.

 

[DHC]

Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists and others have an optional service available on one particular day in which some have ashes crossed on their forehead. It goes away in about an hour. Hardly a mark on the forehead and hands.

Hello Last Things.

May i slightly revise what I said.

It is the physical and outward show or mark that is depicted through human history.
Whether it be a headband with an insignia similar to Muslim extremists worn on the
forehead. Loyal followers of Hitler or the S.S. as their known had a tattoo on the arm.

Military insignia always has head wear that displays a badge informing others of the
allegiance and rank. The sleeves of military dress also carry stripes and signs of
rank and position.

Some cultures have marks cut into the flesh to signify allegiance. Indian people
wear a forehead mark to show membership to the Hindu God(s).

Maoris have tattooed faces and foreheads in some tribes.

The way of the world under the control of satan has always placed
special emphasis on the external dress or marking if you like. It is
endemic in human nature to wear the attire that depicts your devotion.
Always external to the more hidden affiliation of the heart of the Christian
folk.

The Catholic mark may be short lived but it is on the forehead and is
an external mark. My point is valid Last Things.

 

[DHC]

Hello DHC,

You have yet to divulge which of the five standard systems of interpretation you hold to.
However, you did have negative things to say about historicism ... equating it with 7thDay Adventists and David Korasch of the Branch Davidians.

You omitted Mormons who I believe hold to this understanding. Were you not aware of that?
I would be very interested in knowing your personal eschatological system of interpretation of the remaining four: full preterism partial preterism futurism idealism

You also equated "gematria" with paganism. I asked if you thought the numbering of the beast was to use a pagan system to count the 666 beast, but no answer from you as yet.

Hello Canada.

Once again I do appreciate your reply Canada.

The article I posted said negative things about historicism, not I Canada.

I agree that to quote 'equating it with 7thDay Adventists and David Korasch of the Branch Davidians.'
Is slightly unfair and a disservice to those other denominations that have a respectable historical
based eschatology. That section was a red herring but the rest of the article is solid enough.

I do agree with the main argument of the article, i.e., historicism is far to flexible
in it's application to many areas of history. This renders the eschatology to open
to personal preference and not defined specifically to fit a true fulfillment. Just to many
possible variations are available, too many flavors for my liking.

There are more than five systems of eschatology. I hold to none of the five you offered
except futurism is more in keeping with I think the flow of the scripture. I would rather be aware
of the many possibilities than to stand on one position and be caught out in the end. But I must
add that the scripture sometimes has a dual meaning and dual fulfillment at given times. For example
the 'beast' is representative both of a collective assembly of kings and nations. But also a
person who takes his seat in the temple of God. The 'harlot' is definitely the physical church of
Rome but also all churches that are not true to Jesus Christ in a general sense. A harlot is
not faithful and true.

I have found if you push to hard in eschatology it tends to push back with a greater force.
We need to be aware that God is sovereign and in control and will duly notify us when necessary.

Of all the possible views to hold in eschatology when there will be only one correct interpretation.
Implores everyone to be very careful in how they approach the eschatology available within the
pages of the scripture.

 

[canada]

Thank you DHC for your comments.
We do agree that the 'harlot' is the physical Church of Rome.

It is my understanding that the "Vatican" hierarchy headed by a reigning pope is the "False Prophet".
"vatic" meaning prophet or prophecy" ... Vatic = Prophet = Vatican = False Prophet

You noted that you lean toward futurism. I was a follower of that system for ten years, but I wearied of the many predictions of what was "going to happen".

It was Sir Isaac Newton who said ... we are not to become prophets, but to recognize the event when it comes to pass.

May 1948 being a good example.

 

[Last Things]

Hello Last Things.

May i slightly revise what I said.

It is the physical and outward show or mark that is depicted through human history.
Whether it be a headband with an insignia similar to Muslim extremists worn on the
forehead. Loyal followers of Hitler or the S.S. as their known had a tattoo on the arm.

Military insignia always has head wear that displays a badge informing others of the
allegiance and rank. The sleeves of military dress also carry stripes and signs of
rank and position.

Some cultures have marks cut into the flesh to signify allegiance. Indian people
wear a forehead mark to show membership to the Hindu God(s).

Maoris have tattooed faces and foreheads in some tribes.

The way of the world under the control of satan has always placed
special emphasis on the external dress or marking if you like. It is
endemic in human nature to wear the attire that depicts your devotion.
Always external to the more hidden affiliation of the heart of the Christian
folk.

The Catholic mark may be short lived but it is on the forehead and is
an external mark. My point is valid Last Things.

Did you just compare the ashes of Ash Wednesday, used by most Christians, with Nazis?
You might as well compare ear rings to swastika armbands.

The ashes are not meant to be a mark. It is meant to be an individual reminder that we are going to die. That is the last thing Satan wants.
You mentioned outward show - is that not what you consider baptism to be?

 

[Last Things]

Thank you DHC for your comments.
We do agree that the 'harlot' is the physical Church of Rome.

It is my understanding that the "Vatican" hierarchy headed by a reigning pope is the "False Prophet".
"vatic" meaning prophet or prophecy" ... Vatic = Prophet = Vatican = False Prophet

You noted that you lean toward futurism. I was a follower of that system for ten years, but I wearied of the many predictions of what was "going to happen".

It was Sir Isaac Newton who said ... we are not to become prophets, but to recognize the event when it comes to pass.

May 1948 being a good example.

The Vatican is in reference to Mons Vaticanus, a hill in Rome named by the Romans before the arrival of Christianity. Vatican hill was outside the city of Rome and was a place of burial. Right now it is in the middle of NW Rome. But bear in mind, modern Rome is so much bigger. If you have ever been to the Old City in Jerusalem, it is amazing how small and compact it was!

A church was built on the site believed to be Peter's grave (Vaticanus Mons). Christians in Rome, during the Roman persecution, worshiped underground among the catacombs, among those that had died. It was a reminder about their own death, but also their unity in the body of Christ with those who had died. They found it fitting to build Church in places of Christian martyrs.

The name refers more to an Etruscan concept of first utterance, in reference to the crying to a newborn child, not really prophesy. Nevertheless, it was the pagan Romans that named it. I do not see a conflict in getting a name from a previous group. Many towns in the new and old world were named by pagans. Even our calendar is of pagan origin.

 

[DHC]

Did you just compare the ashes of Ash Wednesday, used by most Christians, with Nazis?
You might as well compare ear rings to swastika armbands.

The ashes are not meant to be a mark. It is meant to be an individual reminder that we are going to die. That is the last thing Satan wants.
You mentioned outward show - is that not what you consider baptism to be?

Hello Last Things.

You seemed confused about what I was discussing.

Water baptism is a single event and is not worn on the forehead or the hand.

Catholics every year walk around with a mark on the forehead.

There is a marked difference between these two examples.

 

[canada]

Online dictionary:

vatic ... of or characteristic of a prophet, oracular
from Latin vates, seer, of Celtic origin

vatic ... of relating to, or characteristic of a prophet.
Thesaurus vatic ... resembling or characteristic of a prophet or prophecy.
"the high priest's "divinatory prounouncement".
fortelling events as if by supernatural intervention

Last Things ... might you be Roman Catholic or Anglican?

 

[Last Things]

Hello Last Things.

You seemed confused about what I was discussing.

Water baptism is a single event and is not worn on the forehead or the hand.

You said outward sign - is that not how you see baptism?

Catholics every year walk around with a mark on the forehead.

There is a marked difference between these two examples.

A few Catholics, along with a few Anglicans, a few Methodists, and a few Lutherans who go to an Ash Wednesday service have ashes placed on their forehead, not their hands, which wears off very quickly. This is no way seems related to the permanent sign given to all people in Revelation.

I don't think reminding faithful Catholics and protestants of their death before the season of Lent is something Satan wants.

 

[Last Things]

Online dictionary:

vatic ... of or characteristic of a prophet, oracular
from Latin vates, seer, of Celtic origin

vatic ... of relating to, or characteristic of a prophet.
Thesaurus vatic ... resembling or characteristic of a prophet or prophecy.
"the high priest's "divinatory prounouncement".
fortelling events as if by supernatural intervention

That is from the stem of vatic-, not vatican-. Vaticus is the first person singular nominative form of prophet. Vaticanus is the first person singular nominative form of Vatican-. Vaticanus refers to initial utterance or crying. This is like comparing seeing with seething. They are different words.
It is called Vatican today because most Indo-European languages no longer use declensions, that is, endings to words. Thus, the -us, -i, -o, -um, -o, -i, -orum, -is, -os, -is is dropped from words. The endings told us the meaning of the word within a sentence. Today, the ordering of words in the sentence indicates their relationship with other words.

You also cut off the celtic part, of which the stem is wet-. The way you quoted it might suggest the word is of Celtic origin, which it is not. The dictionary is showing the two forms of the word relevant to English speakers. That is because our language is influenced by both Latin and Celtic (the original language of Britain and Ireland).

Last Things ... might you be Roman Catholic or Anglican?

Yep.

 

[canada]

CHARACTEREM ... MARK

Original Latin Trent text read:
"Si quis dixerit, in tribus sacramentis, baptismo scilicet, confirmatione et orgine, non imprimi characterem in anima, hoc est signum quoddam spirituale et indelebile, unde ea iterari non possunt: a.s."

This mark is alleged to be indelible, given through the sign of the cross on the subject's forehead by the right hand of the priest or bishop.

According to Revelation, the mark of the beast is "received" ... not forced upon people.
If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived

 

[Last Things]

This issue also does not seem relevant anyways, since the name of the hill was given by Romans. It was a graveyard outside of the city in which many Christian martyrs were buried.