Who can and cannot be saved.

[Kirby D. P.]

Look forward to it. Maybe a new thread?

I’m a bit gun-shy about starting new threads unnecessarily. Often administrators think I’m planning on being deliberately combative.

So, what do I make ofChristianity after “all” my studies? First I’ll mention what I think about the OT. I know skeptical atheists are fond of saying absolutely nothing in the Bible is factually accurate. That is just not true. The Book of Daniel recounts demonstrable facts concerning the Babylonian exile of the Hebrews. But, much of the OT is pure myth. (Again, earlier in this thread I pointed out that myth is not the same as lies, but neither is it the same as demonstrable fact.) Take the Exodus. The Bible claims the Jews wandered for forty years along a route which, if it were hiked, should take a healthy person about a week. And, long as you keep the sea on your left, it’s impossible to get lost.

Of course, the reason for 40 years of wandering is to allow the generation of all those who were slaves to die off. I find estimates of the population of the Exodus range between 2.4 million and 6 million. There are not 2.4-6 MILLION Bronze Age Hebrew graves in the Sinai. There’s plenty of magic described all over the Bible. It does not mention a magical disappearance of the remains of the millions of those people. The Exodus is important myth, among my favorite, with much to teach. But it is pure myth.

I find no reason I should consider the four Gospels as anything other than myth. They all cover many of the same teachings, plus each offers special wisdom justifying their canonization. Was Jesus a myth? Yes. So was George Washington. George Washington was ALSO a real person. It is said Washington was very tall and could throw a stone across the Potomac. Both of these are part of his myth. But the real person could not throw a stone across the Potomac. The only accounts of Jesus’ resurrection are in the same single document, or are based upon those accounts. Those accounts are definitely evidence for the Resurrection. I just don’t happen to consider them very compelling evidence for an actual Resurrection. In my opinion, the Resurrection is an example of myth (which, again, does NOT mean i claim it is a LIE.).

As for Jesus’ teachings, SOMEBODY came up with them. Were they all composed by one person named Jesus? Sure. It’s reasonable enough to accept until proven otherwise. I am much more concerned with the content of those teachings than with who invented them.

There are aspects of Jesus’ ministry which I find wonderful. And some I do not. I’m happy to pick through those, but, if experience is any guide, you’ll be more interested in the other two points of my perspective.

First, I ask you consider we both have access to the same scripture. I’ll admit I am not so expert in theology or Biblical studies as you, but then please accept I am as well-studied as some sincerely religious Christians. Two convictions I cannot “believe”my way out of (though I am truly happy to be convinced) are:

1. I see nothing in the Holy Scriptures to convince me, or so much as lead me to suspect, there was anything in any way supernatural about Jesus.

2. “ “ “ superhuman about Jesus.

I should point out I view these as two entirely separate reasons not to believe.

I do not WANT to remain unconvinced. All I WANT is to know, the best way I can, how the world really works. I’ll face any God or gods or godlessness on the straight and level the moment I accept that state of nature. For the moment, my operating hypothesis is “Nature exists without any supernatural involvement.”

I’m happy to discuss what I find disagreeable about the notion of salvation by way of Christ’s sacrifice. Or discuss why I am not swayed by the supernatural claims in scripture. But, be advised, I am neither afraid of utter extermination when I die, nor of suffering eternal punishment for reasons that are not just. And I don’t consider a lack of faith in an absence of convincing evidence worthy of being punished.

Sorry. I hope that didn’t rattle on to long.

 

[Hekuran]

Good answer.

On myths. The function of myth is a story that shapes a culture. In London we often refer back to the WWII blitz of the city when we feel the need to account for our gritty resilience and pluck. I believe the story of the Pilgrim Fathers comes up very often in discussion about freedom in the US. Both are historical, but they have a much bigger cultural function than history. Same with the Exodus.

I don't think we're a million miles apart on this.

On Jesus: there's deep, deep wisdom in his teaching, such as the sermon on the mount. But it's inextricably bound up with the most outlandish claims - that the whole scriptures point to him, he has the authority to forgive sins, that despite being born in a humble family that he is the king of Israel - surpassing the power of Caesar. Everything he does and says - as reported in the gospels - depends on these claims. Without them, everything collapses.

So, no matter how unlikely, I think we have to take the divine claims seriously.

Or ditch Jesus, his teaching and the church that grew up in his name altogether.

 

[Hekuran]

But I find Jesus too compelling to dismiss. And I have no way to account for his humility, gentleness and compassion alongside his claims, other than to accept those claims at face value.

 

[Sue D.]

@Kirby D. P. -- As for the Exodus -- and wandering for those 40 years. They were following God's leading. Exodus 13:17, 18 -22 vs 21 "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night." Their first major obstacle in traveling was encountering the Red Sea. The Lord God provided their way of escape. The Egyptian army was in hot pursuit -- the Pharoah had second thoughts about letting them go and wanted them captured and brought back. But the Lord was following through with His plans. That was in Spite of the Children of Israel already starting to complain. They thought that Maybe captivity and slavery were Better than their freedom to Go.

And they Will be allowed to wander for those 40 years.

And there were only about 1.2 - 2 million Israelites at that time. They had All been slaves -- Moses was being used by God to deliver them From Egyptian slavery. But some of the Egyptians Did join them to leave.

And Why would 'someone' make up a '"myth / story" like That? Especially when the tribe of Judah -- the Jewish people / Jesus Christ Came from the 12 tribes of Israel.

One more 'thing' for now -- you said you see nothing supernatural about Jesus Christ. How about how his mother, Mary was impregnated. And the fact that His Bodily resurrection Proved He was, in fact, the Son of God.

It's also the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ that you find to not be compelling -- just being a myth -- the account Of it you find interesting -- but an Actual Resurrection?! Back at the time it Did happen, the Romans did NOT want it to be truthful. During His ministry, He had been bringing people Back to life After their death. He raised Lazarus from the dead. And there was a little girl He brought back to life.

The four Gospels are written by 4 different men -- one was Dr. Luke, another was John , Mark, and Matthew. Will be more specific. God was the original author -- He told His chosen people What to write Through the Holy Spirit.

It's kind of like -- there's a car -- and there are 4 people standing at different places around that car. They are asked to tell what that car looked like. The person Asking would get 4 different views from those 4 people. Exactly the same car -- but seen through the eyes of those four different people. Put all of that information together and a person gets a more complete picture of what that car looked like.

So -- this world is operating without any supernatural involvement?! And Who or What put the planets in their own orbits around the sun with the moon giving light to varying degrees at night. And how did the human brain develop so that we have memory/ ability to Think / reasoning ability.

Your comments are usually interesting.

I know that there Is a risen Savior.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Good answer.

On myths. The function of myth is a story that shapes a culture. In London we often refer back to the WWII blitz of the city when we feel the need to account for our gritty resilience and pluck. I believe the story of the Pilgrim Fathers comes up very often in discussion about freedom in the US. Both are historical, but they have a much bigger cultural function than history. Same with the Exodus.

I don't think we're a million miles apart on this.

On Jesus: there's deep, deep wisdom in his teaching, such as the sermon on the mount. But it's inextricably bound up with the most outlandish claims - that the whole scriptures point to him, he has the authority to forgive sins, that despite being born in a humble family that he is the king of Israel - surpassing the power of Caesar. Everything he does and says - as reported in the gospels - depends on these claims. Without them, everything collapses.

So, no matter how unlikely, I think we have to take the divine claims seriously.

Or ditch Jesus, his teaching and the church that grew up in his name altogether.

I have my own armchair philosopher ideas about why the Christian proposition has such appeal and has survived as long and successfully as it has. I won’t bore you with them unless you are interested, but i agree its attraction is most evident to people who believe the Crucifixion/Resurrection literally occurred, or might have occurred, along the lines reported in the Gospels.

Obviously, I am not convinced in it. Despite that, I do find worthy tenets in Jesus’ doctrine. The idea that none of us is beyond any moral reproach, the awareness there is no meaningful value in material wealth, the Golden Rule are all beautifully demonstrated and explored in the New Testament, and I don’t think the worth of these things is in any way diminished absent a literal Resurrection.

The NT content I find most disagreeable is the dogma surrounding the Resurrection and much of Paul’s output. If I go into too-great detail, you’ll think I’m trying to convince you of my position and that is not my intention. I will simply say I don’t see any justice in anyone suffering any amount on my account. If it were offered to me I would reject it out of hand and, if I were at Calvary, I would consider it my moral duty to do anything within my power to spare Jesus the torture and execution he suffered.

As for Paul, nothing he writes strikes me as particularly inspired nor even enlightened. His material reads like a very practical nuts-and-bolts guide to the establishing of a church as wide and robust as possible. His judicial rulings on the necessity of circumcising gentiles is a classic case in point. As a (former) Jew he knew the gravity of the stricture for every Believer to circumsize himself, each and every one of his male relatives, his male servants, and his male domesticated animals. Imposing this upon non-Jews who wanted to embrace Christianity would have been a non-starter. So he decreed only hereditary Jews were beholden to this form of blood sacrifice. Jesus didn’t make that ruling. That was all Paul, with an eye to the membership rolls. I don’t mean to suggest Paul wasn’t a devout believer. I’m sure he was. But I do say the purposes behind his contributions to the Bible are different from the teachings of Christ and should be understood in that light. And that has nothing to do with the genuine divinity of Jesus.

To me, the significance of these distinctions, between the OT and the NT, and between the ministry of Jesus and the theology of Paul, is that the tendency among many Christians to say “The WHOLE Bible is ‘perfect’ in every regard,” runs the risk of religious people inadvertently worshiping a book, rather than the precepts of Christ (another dilemma which, so far as I can see, has nothing to do with whether the Resurrection occurred as it is commonly understood).

I have other, more fine-grain observations reading the Holy Bible keeping in mind a Christian perspective, but I think those are my biggest take-aways.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

@Kirby D. P. -- As for the Exodus -- and wandering for those 40 years. They were following God's leading. Exodus 13:17, 18 -22 vs 21 "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night." Their first major obstacle in traveling was encountering the Red Sea. The Lord God provided their way of escape. The Egyptian army was in hot pursuit -- the Pharoah had second thoughts about letting them go and wanted them captured and brought back. But the Lord was following through with His plans. That was in Spite of the Children of Israel already starting to complain. They thought that Maybe captivity and slavery were Better than their freedom to Go.

And they Will be allowed to wander for those 40 years.

And there were only about 1.2 - 2 million Israelites at that time. They had All been slaves -- Moses was being used by God to deliver them From Egyptian slavery. But some of the Egyptians Did join them to leave.

And Why would 'someone' make up a '"myth / story" like That? Especially when the tribe of Judah -- the Jewish people / Jesus Christ Came from the 12 tribes of Israel.

One more 'thing' for now -- you said you see nothing supernatural about Jesus Christ. How about how his mother, Mary was impregnated. And the fact that His Bodily resurrection Proved He was, in fact, the Son of God.

It's also the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ that you find to not be compelling -- just being a myth -- the account Of it you find interesting -- but an Actual Resurrection?! Back at the time it Did happen, the Romans did NOT want it to be truthful. During His ministry, He had been bringing people Back to life After their death. He raised Lazarus from the dead. And there was a little girl He brought back to life.

The four Gospels are written by 4 different men -- one was Dr. Luke, another was John , Mark, and Matthew. Will be more specific. God was the original author -- He told His chosen people What to write Through the Holy Spirit.

It's kind of like -- there's a car -- and there are 4 people standing at different places around that car. They are asked to tell what that car looked like. The person Asking would get 4 different views from those 4 people. Exactly the same car -- but seen through the eyes of those four different people. Put all of that information together and a person gets a more complete picture of what that car looked like.

So -- this world is operating without any supernatural involvement?! And Who or What put the planets in their own orbits around the sun with the moon giving light to varying degrees at night. And how did the human brain develop so that we have memory/ ability to Think / reasoning ability.

Your comments are usually interesting.

I know that there Is a risen Savior.

One final thought, and here I am keenly interested in your opinions. It concerns the authenticity of the Resurrection and our duty/opportunity to accept Christ.

I don’t believe. Maybe I’m wrong. The thought that I am wrong doesn’t bother me in the least. When I die, if there is anything beyond death, I will certainly be surprised, but I think I’ll get over that surprise. I avoid being deliberately cruel. I do what I can to pursue justice and mercy. If living by that standard but failing to find faith condemns me to an eternity of torment, so be it. I can’t see how I, or any just being, could subject a subordinate creature to such punishment. But, hey, I am imperfect and definitely don’t know everything.

So I think (and maybe I’m wrong about this, too) I’ll have no complaints no matter what happens. If there’s nothing, I’m comfortable with that. If there is truth in Christ and I spent my life poo-pooing it, hey, I made my bed. I’ll sleep in it.

How do Christians take those prospects? I’m not suggesting you reconsider your faith. But, how easy would it be to accept you were wrong in some major way about God and his Grace? Chances are, if you are wrong, there’s nothing to worry about because there’ll be nothing at all. But do you suppose you’d live your life in any way differently if you knew you’re not entitled to the deal you think you have?

Which is kind of an upside down way of phrasing my original android question.

 

[Sue D.]

Do you understand Why Jesus Christ went to Calvary and suffered For us.

I'm living my life Now -- sharing my beliefs of Scripture -- what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for me and you and everyone else BECAUSE I truly believe what God's Word tells us about the afterlife -- that Will exist. Hell Will be excruciatingly horrible Forever. But it's only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. It's Not meant for people.

You've shared your concern about being separated from your wife / kids for ever -- if All three of you end up in hell -- what makes you think you Will see them or even be aware Of their existence. Bible describes hell as being total darkness. God is the source of our light. Without God there is total darkness. Like not being able to see your hand in front of your face 'dark'. I was in darkness like that a couple of times -- the first time with warning -- the second time No warning. It was Not pleasant. I vowed after those two experiences -- the last one especially -- that I'd Always have a night-light on in my house. There are several in various places in my house.

And the lake of fire and brimstone. Maybe You'd be content with that kind of eternal existence -- but what about your wife -- your kids. Maybe They will come to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and You will be the one separated from Them.

You also said that you'd do what ever it would have taken -- if you had been alive at the time of the crucifixion to Stop it -- that no one should ever have to suffer like That for someone else. You do realize that Jesus Christ Could have called 10,000 angels To stop it IF He had wanted to. He knew ahead of time exactly what would be happening to Him. He Chose to do it Anyway. Because He wanted all of us to have a chance to stay Out of hell and be able To be with God in heaven.

You are Assuming that there is nothing beyond death. And you're okay with that -- Of Course you would be. It means that you can continue living the nice way You choose to live and that will be enough. But -- God's Word tells you Differently and You are choosing to Ignore that.

Many years ago -- on another Forum -- there was a young woman in this country for a law degree from Japan or maybe China. She decided that she would rather pay for her own sins than have someone pay in her place. She knew about Christianity but rejected it -- but she wanted Me to think seriously about her middle-eastern religious beliefs. I shared that Christianity was enough. She had a great opportunity to stay in this country as a lawyer, but had strong family ties 'back home'. She suggested that her family was Very influential in the business world and if she wanted to go back -- she would have No problems ever.

I have to admit that I'd never seen Christianity in That perspective before.

 

[Sue D.]

My computer just caught up with your earlier question -- I've already responded back to it -- but will add this thought concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It marked the beginning of Christianity. Sunday worship replacing Saturday Sabboth worship. And there Are those -- lots of people who maintain Saturday Sabboth day of rest. And we Are told in Scripture to not judge either the person who retains Saturday and those who start to worship on Sunday -- first day of week - Lords' Day worship.

One of the other posters had commented that Without the bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ -- this world has Nothing. And, yes, because of way back in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate that fruit and sin entered this world. Ever since then 'we've' needed a Savior -- and Jesus Christ , the Son of God -- became our Savior. Other-wise everyone ever born would be doomed to spend eternity exactly where satan, the beast, and the false prophet are headed. And That is because those three entities / people are purposely leading people Away from God and everything God and His Word stand for. I'm not saying that satan is a person -- he is an entity -- the other two -- they are simply referred to in Revelation as the land and sea beast. Revelation 13 talks about / describes a beast rising out of the sea. vs 1- 10 and the second beast coming out of the earth vs 11 - 18.

God and His grace are as real as you and I are. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

The existence of the trinity / Godhead / makes our salvation possible.

People who choose to Not accept the Bible as God's Word -- rejecting what we're all told -- well -- it Will end up making a Huge difference to you.

Satan Wants all of us to feel very content in our own lives -- living as a good citizen --helping our fellow man as we're able to. All the good works we can imagine to be doing. But God is Telling us that That is not going to earn our entrance into heaven. And that there Will Be an eternity either in heaven or in hell. We - each of us - has a decision to make. You kind of sound like an agnostic. Not quite enough information for you to make a decision. Sitting on that fence won't last 'forever'.

 

[Hekuran]

One final thought, and here I am keenly interested in your opinions. It concerns the authenticity of the Resurrection and our duty/opportunity to accept Christ.

I don’t believe. Maybe I’m wrong. The thought that I am wrong doesn’t bother me in the least. When I die, if there is anything beyond death, I will certainly be surprised, but I think I’ll get over that surprise. I avoid being deliberately cruel. I do what I can to pursue justice and mercy. If living by that standard but failing to find faith condemns me to an eternity of torment, so be it. I can’t see how I, or any just being, could subject a subordinate creature to such punishment. But, hey, I am imperfect and definitely don’t know everything.

So I think (and maybe I’m wrong about this, too) I’ll have no complaints no matter what happens. If there’s nothing, I’m comfortable with that. If there is truth in Christ and I spent my life poo-pooing it, hey, I made my bed. I’ll sleep in it.

How do Christians take those prospects? I’m not suggesting you reconsider your faith. But, how easy would it be to accept you were wrong in some major way about

To your question about what if I'm wrong about faith ... if there's nothing after death then, by definition, I'll not regret my choice about how to live. If another faith - say Sikhism - is actually the truth, then my defence is that I've lived my life according to the truth as I saw it and ...

I think you've misunderstood and underestimated Paul. What he preached was all people reconciled - Greek and Jew, men and women, slave and free. This was utterly contrary to 1st Century culture, that was highly stratified and separate. To have slave and free eating together in fellowship had no precedents as far as I'm aware, and questioned the whole structure of society.

And you've picked out some of the safer elements of Jesus's teaching. They'd never had killed him if his teaching was restricted to 'do unto others' or rejection of the pursuit of wealth. Also, ever religion has a variation on these teachings.

Love your enemy, bless those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, come to me you with heavy burdens and I will give you rest, blessed are the poor in spirit. To my mind these are the teachings (among others) that mark him out as unique. And they only hang together if Jesus is who he claimed to be.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Do you understand Why Jesus Christ went to Calvary and suffered For us.

I'm living my life Now -- sharing my beliefs of Scripture -- what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for me and you and everyone else BECAUSE I truly believe what God's Word tells us about the afterlife -- that Will exist. Hell Will be excruciatingly horrible Forever. But it's only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. It's Not meant for people.

You've shared your concern about being separated from your wife / kids for ever -- if All three of you end up in hell -- what makes you think you Will see them or even be aware Of their existence. Bible describes hell as being total darkness. God is the source of our light. Without God there is total darkness. Like not being able to see your hand in front of your face 'dark'. I was in darkness like that a couple of times -- the first time with warning -- the second time No warning. It was Not pleasant. I vowed after those two experiences -- the last one especially -- that I'd Always have a night-light on in my house. There are several in various places in my house.

And the lake of fire and brimstone. Maybe You'd be content with that kind of eternal existence -- but what about your wife -- your kids. Maybe They will come to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and You will be the one separated from Them.

You also said that you'd do what ever it would have taken -- if you had been alive at the time of the crucifixion to Stop it -- that no one should ever have to suffer like That for someone else. You do realize that Jesus Christ Could have called 10,000 angels To stop it IF He had wanted to. He knew ahead of time exactly what would be happening to Him. He Chose to do it Anyway. Because He wanted all of us to have a chance to stay Out of hell and be able To be with God in heaven.

You are Assuming that there is nothing beyond death. And you're okay with that -- Of Course you would be. It means that you can continue living the nice way You choose to live and that will be enough. But -- God's Word tells you Differently and You are choosing to Ignore that.

Many years ago -- on another Forum -- there was a young woman in this country for a law degree from Japan or maybe China. She decided that she would rather pay for her own sins than have someone pay in her place. She knew about Christianity but rejected it -- but she wanted Me to think seriously about her middle-eastern religious beliefs. I shared that Christianity was enough. She had a great opportunity to stay in this country as a lawyer, but had strong family ties 'back home'. She suggested that her family was Very influential in the business world and if she wanted to go back -- she would have No problems ever.

I have to admit that I'd never seen Christianity in That perspective before.

I am quite versed on why Jesus died on the Cross. I do get the intended point. However, I do not find it very impressive except as parable. In real world terms Jesus suffered a day of torture and was put out of his misery. My father died of lingering, agonizing cancer. He had to endure me changing his diapers the last several weeks of his life. I won’t claim he suffered more than Jesus was supposed to have suffered. But nothing in the Gospels suggests to me Jesus experienced anything very remarkable in terms of torment.

If I allow that Jesus was in any way supernaturally divine, his “sacrifice” seems even less impressive. People who believe they will find Jesus in Heaven with God seem to contend Jesus isn’t really dead, God only had to make it through 3 days without him (but Isn't God everywhere?), and of I don’t honor that supposed sacrifice I’m bound for Hell. My dad’s been separated from me for 20 years. REALLY separated. If that doesn’t buy salvation for just one kids somewhere and you expect me to see justice in that, while Jesus and God ran a gauntlet of one crummy weekend, I can’t.

As I raise my children, I take pains not to tell them what to believe. They know of Christianity and get the gist of it. They also know about my lack of belief. I tell them there MAY BE truth in Christianity, but I simply don’t find any. To do otherwise would be telling them a lie. And not just a little white lie. I, their parent and guardian, would be lying to them about my own feelings and understanding of how the universe works. I think you are unintentionally suggesting I lie to them about my feelings on God in the hope of sparing them Hell. But, think for a second, of ALL the things about which to lie in the universe, do you really suppose God would want me to lie to my children about my relationship with him?

As for being protective of my sinful ways, I’m honestly having trouble rightnow thinking of a single thing I would change about how I live my life if I accepted Christ. I’m sure I indulge in lots of behaviors some would find sinful. But that’s not for them to judge, correct? If I believed, I would automatically come into compliance with the only commandments of the Big Ten I don’t already practice. This may be unrealistic, but I have a hunch most people come a lot closer to toeing that line than most of us suspect.

 

[Sue D.]

@Kirby -- It's as much of what Jesus Christ endured before He even got To the cross. He endured a scourging -- do you know what That is / consists of? It pretty much tears apart a person's back. Loss of LOTS of blood. And then the crown of thorns that got pushed into his head. You know what Thorns are -- how sharp They are. By a 'crown' it's meant sort of a halo affect -- the thorns -- what the thorns are On -- all wrapped together in a circle and pushed down on His head. Mocking Him as a 'king' with His crown of thorns. If you've ever gotten a sliver in your finger, you know how much That hurts. You get it Out as quickly as you can. Or that splinter stuck Way down into the skin of your finger. It Hurts.

And Then He had to walk up to the hill carrying His own cross -- and there's the account of one of the men , seeing Him stumbling and falling down -- offering to carry it up For Him.

And Normally -- a crucifixion takes as long as it takes the person Being crucified to die. They are literally nailed to the cross -- their feet Nailed together and their arms stretched out on the side arms of the cross and Nailed. In This particular situation, there was a feast day or something coming up the next day. So -- they soldiers were ordered to break the legs of the people hanging so to cause them to die faster. They suffocate faster. BUT Jesus was Already dead. They knew That because one of the soldiers pierced his side with a sword. The blood was already starting to separate -- or whatever blood does After a person is dead.

Maybe people Want to treat it as a parable -- but Who would ever want to make up such a gruesome story -- unless that person is already sick in their head. Horror stories / movies come from the minds of very sick, cruel people.

Honestly -- to hear you belittling the crucifixion of Christ -- kind of sickens me. Okay -- I'm sorry your Dad experienced such a slow, agonizing death -- that was very hard on you, too.

As far as 'if Jesus was Really dead' the medical experts will assure you that He was.

God is Not in hell -- and That is where Jesus Christ went In Our Place AFTER He died on that cross.

You're Dad's being in eternity for 20 years -- My Dad has Also been in eternity for about that long. Actually a few years over that. He was a believer and I'll see him again in eternity in heaven.

Jesus Christ's death was a very real painful, bloody sacrifice and it was All done For You and Me and every human being ever been born or will Be born.

I'm sitting here crying -- because my Dad died all those years ago AND my husband would have been 71 Today. They are Both in heaven as are my Mother and my Mother in law. It simply sickens me to hear you belittle Jesus Christ's death. Especially because He did it for YOU and me and all our loved ones. And you kids. And My kids. So that they Can be with Jesus Christ Now. And for all eternity.

There's a Big difference between out-right Lying and simply not sharing important information. Some would call that 'lying by ommission'. I don't go That far, though. IF I were in Your place -- I'd probably tend to do the same thing. BUT I'm Not and I'm very thankful That I'm not.

Okay -- you probably Are living a fairly good life -- Not doing anything purposely wrong. And your personality type is probably the hardest To win to Christ. Simply because you Are basically a good person. The Holy Spirit is the One who will - at some point - open your Spiritual eyes.

And there Are a lot of good people who are being taught that good works are fine. And Those preachers / teachers are going to be answering to God at some point. Because God's Word tells us differently. Because salvation is NOT of works - because people tend to be boastful. They put their trust / faith / in their good works but Not in the blood of Christ. He gave His perfect, pure blood -- lots of it -- For us.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

@Kirby -- It's as much of what Jesus Christ endured before He even got To the cross. He endured a scourging -- do you know what That is / consists of? It pretty much tears apart a person's back. Loss of LOTS of blood. And then the crown of thorns that got pushed into his head. You know what Thorns are -- how sharp They are. By a 'crown' it's meant sort of a halo affect -- the thorns -- what the thorns are On -- all wrapped together in a circle and pushed down on His head. Mocking Him as a 'king' with His crown of thorns. If you've ever gotten a sliver in your finger, you know how much That hurts. You get it Out as quickly as you can. Or that splinter stuck Way down into the skin of your finger. It Hurts.

And Then He had to walk up to the hill carrying His own cross -- and there's the account of one of the men , seeing Him stumbling and falling down -- offering to carry it up For Him.

And Normally -- a crucifixion takes as long as it takes the person Being crucified to die. They are literally nailed to the cross -- their feet Nailed together and their arms stretched out on the side arms of the cross and Nailed. In This particular situation, there was a feast day or something coming up the next day. So -- they soldiers were ordered to break the legs of the people hanging so to cause them to die faster. They suffocate faster. BUT Jesus was Already dead. They knew That because one of the soldiers pierced his side with a sword. The blood was already starting to separate -- or whatever blood does After a person is dead.

Maybe people Want to treat it as a parable -- but Who would ever want to make up such a gruesome story -- unless that person is already sick in their head. Horror stories / movies come from the minds of very sick, cruel people.

Honestly -- to hear you belittling the crucifixion of Christ -- kind of sickens me. Okay -- I'm sorry your Dad experienced such a slow, agonizing death -- that was very hard on you, too.

As far as 'if Jesus was Really dead' the medical experts will assure you that He was.

God is Not in hell -- and That is where Jesus Christ went In Our Place AFTER He died on that cross.

You're Dad's being in eternity for 20 years -- My Dad has Also been in eternity for about that long. Actually a few years over that. He was a believer and I'll see him again in eternity in heaven.

Jesus Christ's death was a very real painful, bloody sacrifice and it was All done For You and Me and every human being ever been born or will Be born.

I'm sitting here crying -- because my Dad died all those years ago AND my husband would have been 71 Today. They are Both in heaven as are my Mother and my Mother in law. It simply sickens me to hear you belittle Jesus Christ's death. Especially because He did it for YOU and me and all our loved ones. And you kids. And My kids. So that they Can be with Jesus Christ Now. And for all eternity.

There's a Big difference between out-right Lying and simply not sharing important information. Some would call that 'lying by ommission'. I don't go That far, though. IF I were in Your place -- I'd probably tend to do the same thing. BUT I'm Not and I'm very thankful That I'm not.

Okay -- you probably Are living a fairly good life -- Not doing anything purposely wrong. And your personality type is probably the hardest To win to Christ. Simply because you Are basically a good person. The Holy Spirit is the One who will - at some point - open your Spiritual eyes.

And there Are a lot of good people who are being taught that good works are fine. And Those preachers / teachers are going to be answering to God at some point. Because God's Word tells us differently. Because salvation is NOT of works - because people tend to be boastful. They put their trust / faith / in their good works but Not in the blood of Christ. He gave His perfect, pure blood -- lots of it -- For us.

Sue, I appreciate all you say. And I won’t try to convince you there was nothing special in the Crucifixion. I just wanted to explain some of the reason why I don’t see it.

 

[Sue D.]

@Kirby -- and now you know why you Need To be able To see it.

 

[newname]

I am quite versed on why Jesus died on the Cross. I do get the intended point. However, I do not find it very impressive except as parable. In real world terms Jesus suffered a day of torture and was put out of his misery. My father died of lingering, agonizing cancer. He had to endure me changing his diapers the last several weeks of his life. I won’t claim he suffered more than Jesus was supposed to have suffered. But nothing in the Gospels suggests to me Jesus experienced anything very remarkable in terms of torment.

If I allow that Jesus was in any way supernaturally divine, his “sacrifice” seems even less impressive. People who believe they will find Jesus in Heaven with God seem to contend Jesus isn’t really dead, God only had to make it through 3 days without him (but Isn't God everywhere?), and of I don’t honor that supposed sacrifice I’m bound for Hell. My dad’s been separated from me for 20 years. REALLY separated. If that doesn’t buy salvation for just one kids somewhere and you expect me to see justice in that, while Jesus and God ran a gauntlet of one crummy weekend, I can’t.

As I raise my children, I take pains not to tell them what to believe. They know of Christianity and get the gist of it. They also know about my lack of belief. I tell them there MAY BE truth in Christianity, but I simply don’t find any. To do otherwise would be telling them a lie. And not just a little white lie. I, their parent and guardian, would be lying to them about my own feelings and understanding of how the universe works. I think you are unintentionally suggesting I lie to them about my feelings on God in the hope of sparing them Hell. But, think for a second, of ALL the things about which to lie in the universe, do you really suppose God would want me to lie to my children about my relationship with him?

As for being protective of my sinful ways, I’m honestly having trouble rightnow thinking of a single thing I would change about how I live my life if I accepted Christ. I’m sure I indulge in lots of behaviors some would find sinful. But that’s not for them to judge, correct? If I believed, I would automatically come into compliance with the only commandments of the Big Ten I don’t already practice. This may be unrealistic, but I have a hunch most people come a lot closer to toeing that line than most of us suspect.

Seperated from God is hell. It's being seperated from anything good, love. Why would anyone want that? Noone with a well functioning brain rather worships satan to go to hell than worship God and go to heaven. God is holy. We cannot be with Him if there is the slightest sin. Sinning is serving satan. Ppl can't stop sinning, cause they're a slave to sin. It's standing up against God and God is only good. If you already keep the 10 commendments you already serve Him. If you really hated Him you'd kill everyone in the neighbourhood. Then why not accept Him? It's not about who suffered the most. He got our sin nature on Him. That sin nature had to die. Someone saw heaven and he saw ppl wanting to go in, but because they didn't want His offer all their sins were for everyone to see in His pure Light and they ran and hid in darkness. Don't let the devil deceive you. Jesus loves you. If you don't believe He exists then ask Him to reveal Himself to you. I used to not believe. I just tested if He existed and after a year I was convinced and the thought of not following Him never entered my mind. It was easy for me, cause the devil bugged me and He kicked him out. Easy choice. Gimme Jesus please. The devil couldn't even act towards me as if he didn't exist or wasn't bad.

 

[newname]

 

[Kirby D. P.]

@Kirby -- and now you know why you Need To be able To see it.

Sorry. Still can’t. It is a peculiar bargain. To me it seems like being sound asleep and a fireman on a ladder appears at my window. He begs me to let him rescue me and, if I don’t, he’ll firebomb my house. (Yes, I know if it were a more perfect analogy, he would also be the owner of the house. I don’t think that changes it much, though.)

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Seperated from God is hell. It's being seperated from anything good, love. Why would anyone want that? Noone with a well functioning brain rather worships satan to go to hell than worship God and go to heaven. God is holy. We cannot be with Him if there is the slightest sin. Sinning is serving satan. Ppl can't stop sinning, cause they're a slave to sin. It's standing up against God and God is only good. If you already keep the 10 commendments you already serve Him. If you really hated Him you'd kill everyone in the neighbourhood. Then why not accept Him? It's not about who suffered the most. He got our sin nature on Him. That sin nature had to die. Someone saw heaven and he saw ppl wanting to go in, but because they didn't want His offer all their sins were for everyone to see in His pure Light and they ran and hid in darkness. Don't let the devil deceive you. Jesus loves you. If you don't believe He exists then ask Him to reveal Himself to you. I used to not believe. I just tested if He existed and after a year I was convinced and the thought of not following Him never entered my mind. It was easy for me, cause the devil bugged me and He kicked him out. Easy choice. Gimme Jesus please. The devil couldn't even act towards me as if he didn't exist or wasn't bad.

Hello, newname. I don’t worship Satan. But I am a hopeless failure at the 10 Commandments, or at least the first 4. I don’t actually bow down before graven images, but I don’t avoid it out of Biblical stricture. And I suppose I don’t have other gods before God, but I’m pretty sure not believing in God in the first place is just as bad.

You’ll just have to take my word for it when I say I HAVE asked Jesus to reveal himself to me. As sincerely as I am able. If you think the test you made is a good one, could you please describe it? If it is at all reasonable I might give it a try.

You do raise one issue that draws my attention. “We cannot be with Him if there is the slightest sin.” Do you mean no one who dies with ANY sin upon them may enter Heaven?

 

[Hekuran]

Believe it or not, my own father is a billionaire fireman.

He built a beautiful mansion with his stupendous wealth and gave it to me to live in and look after.

Problem is, I've not been a good son. I've let rubbish accumulate throughout every room to the point that it's become a fire hazard. And I refuse to take his advice about not smoking cigarettes in bed.

It's developed into a bit of a family rift - to the extent that I don't answer the door to him or return his phone calls.

He knows the situation has got beyond my ability to deal with it. Every night he climbs a ladder and knocks on the window begging me to let my older brother come and clean up the mess so that we can start over.

I'm afraid that if this goes on, eventually he'll insist I leave the house. I'm not too happy about the way I'm living, but on the other hand I really don't want to change.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Believe it or not, my own father is a billionaire fireman.

He built a beautiful mansion with his stupendous wealth and gave it to me to live in and look after.

Problem is, I've not been a good son. I've let rubbish accumulate throughout every room to the point that it's become a fire hazard. And I refuse to take his advice about not smoking cigarettes in bed.

It's developed into a bit of a family rift - to the extent that I don't answer the door to him or return his phone calls.

He knows the situation has got beyond my ability to deal with it. Every night he climbs a ladder and knocks on the window begging me to let my older brother come and clean up the mess so that we can start over.

I'm afraid that if this goes on, eventually he'll insist I leave the house. I'm not too happy about the way I'm living, but on the other hand I really don't want to change.

Touché, Hekuran.

 

[Sue D.]

@Hekuran -- your analagy is wonderful.