Who can and cannot be saved.

[Sue D.]

@Kirby D. P. -- so how would you apply that to You?!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

@Kirby D. P. -- so how would you apply that to You?!

I can’t. Hekuran took one analogy and ran with it — beautifully. But took it in a direction I did not intend. If the analogy backfired on me it doesn’t change anything about how the universe works. There’s probably two or three ways by which I think I can come to reconsider my perspective on Christianity. I could be convinced that God, as described in the Bible exists. I could be convinced there is an afterlife and, unless I accept Christ, I will be consigned to Hell after death. I could be convinced in the possibility in a Heavenly afterlife but my only chance of attaining that is to accept Christ. I don’t think any necessarily depend on the others, and I’m pretty sure any one of them could lead me to become a Christian.

Part of why I am active here is an interest in seeing if I’m overlooking something in my current thinking about Christianity. I could be wrong about it and, if i am, that would undoubtedly be the biggest blunder of my life.

I believe your sincerity when you tell me it is the one true path. Please believe me I am willing to be convinced of it. But I won’t, or I can’t — not sure which — take it on faith.

 

[Hekuran]

OK. I put the fireman story in mostly because there are not enough smiles on the internet. But there's a serious element about the basic story of the Bible to be made.

The main thread that goes through the Bible - Genesis to Revelation - is not about whether individuals spend the afterlife in heaven or hell. I believe there's no verse in the whole Bible in which the two words "heaven" and "hell" appear together.

God created the world good, beautiful, abundant, and put humans in place to care for it. And humans turned from God and made it a living hell. That's what the first four pages of the Bible tell us. The rest is God's unfolding plan to reconcile humans and all creation back to his original good purposes. And it culminates in the perfect human Jesus - through his life death and resurrection - being established as Lord over everything. When he returns, all evil will be banished and goodness will flourish again.

This story is not so easy to teach in Sunday school, and it doesn't get such quick results in evangelistic meetings. But it's a much better representation of what God is actually doing in the world. And it opens out much richer appreciation of what being a human is all about.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

OK. I put the fireman story in mostly because there are not enough smiles on the internet. But there's a serious element about the basic story of the Bible to be made.

The main thread that goes through the Bible - Genesis to Revelation - is not about whether individuals spend the afterlife in heaven or hell. I believe there's no verse in the whole Bible in which the two words "heaven" and "hell" appear together.

God created the world good, beautiful, abundant, and put humans in place to care for it. And humans turned from God and made it a living hell. That's what the first four pages of the Bible tell us. The rest is God's unfolding plan to reconcile humans and all creation back to his original good purposes. And it culminates in the perfect human Jesus - through his life death and resurrection - being established as Lord over everything. When he returns, all evil will be banished and goodness will flourish again.

This story is not so easy to teach in Sunday school, and it doesn't get such quick results in evangelistic meetings. But it's a much better representation of what God is actually doing in the world. And it opens out much richer appreciation of what being a human is all about.

I have heard bits of this before, but this is the first distillation of it which has gotten me to think. Thank you.

If I am grasping you correctly, then humanity has been provided/burdened with a goal: the rehabilitation of God’s original cosmic order. The only means by which this can be achieved is through perfection of ourselves as demonstrated by the perfect example of Christ. It seems to me (and please correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth) once this is achieved, Earth will be restored to its original state of Paradise. Without any “evil” there will be no death and, even if there IS a Heaven, there shouldn’t be any discernible difference between there and here.

This says nothing about history or divine punishment or whether we’ll get to see our loved ones again after we die, but, to plagiarize Hillel, “The rest is commentary.”

At all close?

 

[Hekuran]

That's close!

I'd say it's important to note that rehabilitation of humanity and creation will be done by Jesus, not by us. (Honestly, we're not up to the job.) Maybe it's best to say that we participate in the rehabilitation?

You're no fan of St Paul, I know, but here's an important passage from the letter to Colossians.

> The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

It's hardly just commentary from here on :smile:, but I think that's a pretty good lens through which to view the rest of the Bible story.

 

[Sue D.]

@Hekuran -- the Only part 'we' have in the rehabilitation of earth -- is accepting the plan that God has put in place -- accepting His Son as our personal Savior -- the blood of Christ / His death on the cross and His bodily resurrection = a package deal. The original fellowship that Adam and Eve enjoyed with God in the original perfect earth -- was destroyed By them. And, yes, eventually it Will be restored.

And , as it turns out -- we Do agree on 'peace through His blood, shed on the cross'.

At times, I find myself re-emphasizing what others have already stated. that was for Kirby's benefit.

 

[Sue D.]

I can’t. Hekuran took one analogy and ran with it — beautifully. But took it in a direction I did not intend. If the analogy backfired on me it doesn’t change anything about how the universe works. There’s probably two or three ways by which I think I can come to reconsider my perspective on Christianity. I could be convinced that God, as described in the Bible exists. I could be convinced there is an afterlife and, unless I accept Christ, I will be consigned to Hell after death. I could be convinced in the possibility in a Heavenly afterlife but my only chance of attaining that is to accept Christ. I don’t think any necessarily depend on the others, and I’m pretty sure any one of them could lead me to become a Christian.

Part of why I am active here is an interest in seeing if I’m overlooking something in my current thinking about Christianity. I could be wrong about it and, if i am, that would undoubtedly be the biggest blunder of my life.

I believe your sincerity when you tell me it is the one true path. Please believe me I am willing to be convinced of it. But I won’t, or I can’t — not sure which — take it on faith.

Your comment that you somehow can't grasp the 'take it on faith' -- well -- how many things in your daily life do you 'take on faith' and don't even realize it. For instance, unless you've wired your own house for electricity or visually watched the electrician do it. You are 'by faith' turning on the light switch and assuming the light will come on. You buy a major appliance --- you use it 'by faith' that the manufacturers knew what they were doing when they put it together. You don't personally check out every detail Of that appliance just to make sure it's put together correctly. When you travel -- you use a map or the gps system -- to get you where you're going. You're putting your faith in it's ability to get you on the right highways , etc and get you where you want to go in a safe, timely manner.

When you turn on your TV or radio =placing your faith in it's ability to work right. You don't take time to personally check out all of it's circuits / wiring, etc Just to make sure.

So - in reality -- you're placing your faith in things all the time.

 

[Hekuran]

 

[Kirby D. P.]

That's close!

I'd say it's important to note that rehabilitation of humanity and creation will be done by Jesus, not by us. (Honestly, we're not up to the job.) Maybe it's best to say that we participate in the rehabilitation?

You're no fan of St Paul, I know, but here's an important passage from the letter to Colossians.

> The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

It's hardly just commentary from here on :smile:, but I think that's a pretty good lens through which to view the rest of the Bible story.

Excellent passage. And, I admit, I did not notice its excellence until now.

I think at this point I’m supposed to press on with the conversation, but I confess this prompts me to a lot of thinking –– I think.

One question as I do: How do I respond to the many Christians I have met who carp on about lakes of fire and adultery of the heart and the abomination of birth control, etc., etc. Which, if I’m reading you correctly, are fairly small potatoes in the big scheme of things?

 

[Hekuran]

Always a pleasure to do to-and-fro with you.

The video I posted is from the Bible Project, and I really, really rate their work highly. It's a partnership between a Bible scholar and a creative designer. They consistently do a great job of distilling profound insights to bite sized presentations. They've helped me develop my thoughts on lots of areas over the past couple of years.

Sorry. I've not got an answer about the small potatoes other than to concentrate on the big things and to let the smaller things slot into place.

If this is a good point for a pause in the conversation that's cool. I'm willing to take it up again whenever. And difficult questions energise me, rather than offend.

 

[Trevor]

Hello. Friendly atheist here. I come to the forums ‘cuz I’m interested in discussing religious matters and they just don’t generally come up when hanging out with my in-person Christian friends. I am definitely NOT here to insult or to (de)convert. I may say things to which some take offense. Please know, none is intended. But I will be frank and honest about my own positions.

Anyway, I am eager to know how some faithful people respond to a question that came to mind:

What would you say to an android who wanted to be a Christian?

Thanks!

Christians are human and their names were written in the book of life before the world was made. to most people the word of God doesn't make sense but when one whose name was written in the book of life hears the word of God they come to life and respond. Scripture informs us that Christians are a Royal Priesthood, well if that's the case, then questions arise regarding this. Many say that if one doesn't say the sinners prayer, then they go to hell. Well if we are a Royal Priesthood we have to ask ourselves what the function of a priest is? I would say that the function of a priest is to serve. If all the people who are not called to be part of this priesthood go to hell, then who are we going to serve? We are called the elect and if that is so, it stands to reason that there has to be an unelected and these are the people that we are called to serve, so maybe we should stop telling them they are going to hell and start serving them. however, we are called to be wise so when we do help someone it's good to remember the good Samaritan, he was there for the man in need but it's good to remember, he didn't take him to his house, he put him in an inn. Scripture calls us to come out from among them.

 

[newname]

Hello, newname. I don’t worship Satan. But I am a hopeless failure at the 10 Commandments, or at least the first 4. I don’t actually bow down before graven images, but I don’t avoid it out of Biblical stricture. And I suppose I don’t have other gods before God, but I’m pretty sure not believing in God in the first place is just as bad.

You’ll just have to take my word for it when I say I HAVE asked Jesus to reveal himself to me. As sincerely as I am able. If you think the test you made is a good one, could you please describe it? If it is at all reasonable I might give it a try.

You do raise one issue that draws my attention. “We cannot be with Him if there is the slightest sin.” Do you mean no one who dies with ANY sin upon them may enter Heaven?

No then you can't be in His Presence, but I believe that God can show people that they need Him before they die.
I was 14 and I just said all the time: if this doesn't happen, I don't believe in God. If that doesn't happen I don't believe in God, like getting an 8+ for German in school, very specific things I just needed help with. The last one was that I wanted to win a tennis game. I was just a selfish teen and I played very bad. She was just better and I said: if I don't win I don't believe in God and this had been going on for a year, such things and they all happened, but I was like: ah it's just a coincidence, but I remember with that tennis game I was like: this can't be coincidence anymore and then I believed He existed and promised to go to a church. My mom used to be Dutch reformed and she told us how boring it was and how she ate peppermint and then finally he said Amen and it was over, so it took a while before I went, but my brother found a good church that wasn't boring. He was zen meditating and then he saw Jesus. We got saved at the same time.