Trevor
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Well said Samson, Fortunately all our children are born again so our faith doesn't have to cover them. bless you.
"Who did Jesus Pray to"
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Trevor
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Just a thought Butch, Scripture speaks of the two becoming one flesh, this is commonly understood as meaning the husband and the wife. If however the true meaning is that the two produce one flesh, as in a child, then the husband claiming that he and his wife are one, could well be a misnomer. And when Jesus says that the Father and he are one, he may well be saying just that. John 20:28. John 8:58. John 1:1. Bless you.
Butch5
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Hi Trevor, I have considered the idea that a child is the meaning of 'the two shalll be one flesh'. But, why would you consider Jesus means that He and the Father are one being? Would we ever think of any other two people making the same statement as one being?
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Hi Butch, Had the scriptures not pointed me in that direction and convinced me, I might well have seen it your way. But when Moses asked God, what to tell the Israelites, when they asked who'd sent him, God replied, tell them that "I Am" has sent you. Jesus in John 8:58, said to them, "truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am. In John 1:1, scripture states; In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And in John 20:28 Thomas when he was invited to put is fingers into the holes in Jesus hands, knew, and cried out, "my Lord and my God!" Who am I Butch, to disagree with, Thomas, God, and our Lord. I wouldn't dare, In Proverbs, it says, 'The fear of God is the start of wisdom.' I pray I'm being wise, bless you mate.
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I find it odd that Jesus never confirmed or denied this statement. But 3 verses later I quote 31- "But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
If doubting Thomas was right why does the Bible never plainly say that Jesus is God his own Father?
A lot of untrue things were said about God in the book of Job by Jobs friends, God never corrected that for a few Years until he finally spoke to Job.
And lastly in the book of the Revelation 1:4-5 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which
is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5- AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness and the first begotten of the dead......
How is it possible for a being that is Omnipotent and omnipresent to die so that he can be begotten from the dead and be the first to do so?
I know your Bible says the same as mine...... That if we believe in our heart that God hath raised Jesus from the dead we shalt be saved.
This Jesus is God is 100% contrary to the statement in Romans 10:9, as God did not die and Jesus did not resurrect himself according to scripture.
Butch5
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Thanks for the reply. My first question would be, what is God? If Jesus is God and the Father is God, what are they that is God? There's something I've noticed in Christianity that seems to go unaddressed. People will say Jesus is God and the Father is God. But then they will talk about God as a person, ie. God saved me. So, if God is a person or a being, and Jesus is a person or a being, and the Father is a person or a being. How can they all be one being? When someone says God saved me, who saved them? Was it the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit? Some say that there is one God in three persons. If that is the case then there God can't be a being or person. One being can't consist of three other beings. So we're left with this conundrum. How can all three be called God, there be one God, and there be three persons. This is a question that Christians have been wrestling with for 1500 years. Notice I said, 1500 years and not 2000. That's because this idea didn't come into the Christian faith until around the the 5th century. We find it codified in the Athanasian Creed. But you know what else we find in the Athansian Creed? We find these words. The creed opens with,
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
The creed ends with these words.
This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
In other words unless you believe what we say you can't be saved.
Now mind you that the state church had bee established for at least 100 years at this point. So, unless you believed what the state church said, you couldn't be saved. One also didn't challenge the state church, it didn't go well if one did. So, it's not hard to see how this doctrine became so widely accepted, you didn't have a choice. If you rejected it you were out of the church. However, since this time Christians have struggled to explain this claim of the 3 in 1 God.
But, what about the Christians before the 5th century? What did they believe. Tertullian, a Christian leader of the late first century is the guy who is credited with coining the term Trinity as it pertains to God. What did he believe about the "Trinity" ? He argued against some of the heretics in his day and he argued that there are two beings, one is the Father and that other is the Son. This was the position of the first Christians. They saw the Father and the Son as two different beings. We find this teaching in the Nicene Creed which states that Jesus is theos out of theos, or God out of God. They understood that Jesus literally came out of God. That's two different beings. Just as a baby comes out of the mother is two beings. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch. He was appointed by the apostle Peter and he was a disciple of the apostle John. The apostle John was his teacher. Ignatius speaks of Jesus as. 'begotten before all worlds'. We can see from this statement that he is not referring to the incarnation. So, he too understood Jesus as coming out of God. Coming out of God before creation. We know in the incarnation that Jesus was born of Mary, He came out of Mary. However, in John 8:42 Jesus says that He came out of God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Jn. 8:42 KJV)
The word from is translated from the Greek word "ek" . We also see in the Scriptures that there there are two different beings that are referred to as God or Jehovah.
Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven; (Gen. 19:24 ASV)
Here we have two Jehovahs, one on earth and one in Heaven. Two different ones. In context in this passage Abraham is standing before the LORD.
So, if there're two beings how can there be only one God? This is where people equivocate. People say all three are God, but there's only one God. That's illogical. The problem is easily remedied when we look at the word God. People say that God is three in one because the Bible refers to Jesus as God. Yet, the Bible also refers to Baal as a god and Molech as a god, however, no one claims that they are a part of the Trinity. So the claim, that God is three in one because Jesus is called God doesn't hold up. Using that same reasoning one could claim that Baal and Molech are also God, or a part of the Godhead. Christians don't make that claim. But it shows the flaw in claiming that God is three in one simply because Jesus is called God. So, how is there one God? The word God, the Greek word theos, is a title. The word means divine or deity. The Father is Deity and the Son is Deity. I think Paul clears up the question of how there is only one God, yet the Father and Jesus are both called God.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)
Here Paul acknowledges that among the heathen there are many gods. However, he says, 'to us there is one God, the Father.' In the context of the passage Paul is talking about being accountable to God for causing others to stumble. In the passage Paul makes a distinction between God and the Lord Jesus Christ. So we know he's talking about the Father. He's saying that ultimately we are responsible to the Father. The Father is the ultimate authority. Jesus, who is called God in the Scriptures shows us the same.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jn. 17:3 KJV)
Here Jesus calls the Father the only true God. As Paul said, there are many gods, but to us there is one God The Father and Jesus says the Father is the only true God. They both point to the ultimate authority. John too refers to the Father as the true God in contrast to the Son.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 KJV)
Jesus said all authority had been given to Him and yet we find this from Paul.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)
Here Paul is talking about the end. He says that all things were put under Christ, yet he acknowledges an exception. The one who put all things under Christ is excepted. All things were put under Christ, except the Father. The Father is the ultimate authority. He always is. When all of Christ's enemies are defeated Christ too will once again be subject to the Father. So, how is there one God? It's about authority. We answer to the Father.
But what about John 1:1?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. (Jn. 1:1-2 KJV)
If we translate it with the word deity instead of the word God, it becomes clear.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Deity and the Word was Deity.
Jesus is referred to as a prince in Scripture so let's us royalty as an example.
In the beginning was the Prince and the Prince was with Royalty and the Prince was Royalty. Royalty, like Deity, is a title, not a person, This doesn't mean that the Prince and the King are the same person, however, they are both Royalty.
Here's another example. In the US we have president. In Mexico they too have a president. There are two men who are called president. They are not one being they are two. However, even though there are two presidents, to us Americans there is only one president. The president of Mexico has not authority in the US.
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Hi Butch, You question is, how can three persons be one, yet we are. We are made in the image of God, three in one. We are flesh, soul and spirit and each has their own attributes, they can commune with one another, often disagreeing, this is why man has an inner conflict. The flesh consists of our senses, sight, smell, hearing, touch and taste. this is (the outer court of the temple) that Paul referred to. Through the senses we experience creation. we see it, we smell it, we hear it, we touch and taste it. Then we have the soul, (the holy place of the temple). the intellect, the will, and emotions. Through the soul, we feel, reason and act. Finally we have the spirit. (The holy of holies in our temple). Our conscience, intuition and communion. In the holy of holies we should commune with God, receive his instruction and impart it to our soul. But because of the fall in the garden, Adam was turned out, the cherubim were placed at the entrance so Adam could not access the tree of life. His spirit became impotent without the tree of life, and his soul became dominant. Originally it was the other way round and the spirit was dominant, keeping the whole body in tune with the will of God. We inherited this condition of being soulish. Jesus said "let the dead bury their own dead". In that statement he was speaking of the condition of the human spirit that is dead, and has to be born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, bringing the human spirit back into dominance over our soul, enabling the body to be able to abide by God's will. In the fallen state, the flesh would taste something, the soul would desire it and without the spirit to forbid it the soul would, because of it's desire, lead us into sin. This grieved our spirit, but without the power of the Holy Spirit to give it life, our spirit had no power to control our soul, leaving us in the sinful state that causes man the grief and sorrow that is so prevalent today. So you could say that the flesh introduced the desires of the world to the soul, the soul said cheers mate, I'll have some of that. the spirit said hold on that's not good for us and the soul says shut up misery guts chill out and enjoy yourself. Three in one communing with one another. God is known as the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son also being known as the Word. as men being made in the image of God, we don't have the power to separate our trinity, but God is God and I believe he is well able to impart the Word into a human body and come down to earth to save mankind. and The Word is as much of God as our soul is to our spirit. Bless you
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Butch5
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Thanks Trevor,
My first response would be, while the Scriptures do say that man is made in the image of God, they don't elaborate on what that means. I would also have to disagree that man is a trinity. According to the Scriptures man consists of the dust of the earth. According to Gen 2:7 God breathed His breath into the man and the man became a living soul. I would submit that a soul is a living being as we see in Gen 2:7. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It is used of a living being and it is used of life itself. I don't believe there is any place in Scripture that says the soul is the intellect or emotions. Regarding the spirit, when I look at Gen. 2:7 the only spirit I see in man is God's spirit or breath of life. I would submit that there is no human spirit. So, I don't hold a concept of man having a dead spirit. I don't see anything in the Scriptures that would indicate spiritual death as pertaining to man.
In your analogy you spoke of man being three, parts, a body, soul, and spirit, as three individual things. You said the soul was the intellect and emotions. However, if the body dies the intellect and the emotions cease to exist. We know that the intellect is tied to the brain. Emotions are tied to the body. Without a body I don't see how one could experience any of these.
My question though wasn't how can three persons be God. It was, what is God? If Jesus is God, and the Father is God, what is it that they both are that is God?
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Greetings Trevor
The two becoming one flesh, to me at this point is, the husband and the wife becoming one in marriage.
Genesis 2:24 (NKJV)
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Ephesians 5:25-33 (NKJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
Scripture says 'together they' became one flesh, not they created another flesh, one of them.
Matthew 19:4-6 (NKJV)
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'
5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
'together they' became one flesh, not they created another flesh, one of them.
Shalom
Trevor
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But the other flesh is the creation of the two becoming one. blessings
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I agree Trevor,
But the husband and wife are one body through marriage.
If and when the two have children, God created that flesh through them, go forth and multiply scripture says.
Blessings
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Hi Butch
1Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him. In the same way no-one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
What do you think Jesus meant when he said "Let the dead bury their own dead."? And what do you think Paul meant when he told us we were temples of the holy Spirit? bless you.
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Hi Paul, I fail to see how two separate bodies can become one body, but I can see those two bodies becoming one in a child. Yes and God did create that flesh through them making them one. The child Paul, is of both parents, two becoming one. bless you.
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Scripture is clear brother, surely it stands above anything we believe it think.
God's ways are not our ways, they are far higher than ours. We cannot understand it all, we don't have to understand it all.
Just believe The Truth in The Word.
Scripture says 'together they' became one flesh, not they created another flesh, one of them.
Matthew 19:4-6 (NKJV)
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female
5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
Bless you brother
God's ways are not our ways, they are far higher than ours. We cannot understand it all, we don't have to understand it all.
Just believe The Truth in The Word.
Scripture says 'together they' became one flesh, not they created another flesh, one of them.
Matthew 19:4-6 (NKJV)
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female
5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
Bless you brother
Trevor
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I believe on this one brother we will have to agree to disagree. bless you bro. Trevor
Samson2020
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The scripture never says that the man and woman have to procreate to become one flesh. Just joined. That is an addition to the scripture. If they do have children so be it,
but they do not have to, and are still considered one flesh.
Some couples cannot have children, so do we consider them separate fleshes until they do, even tough they are joined (married)?
but they do not have to, and are still considered one flesh.
Some couples cannot have children, so do we consider them separate fleshes until they do, even tough they are joined (married)?
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Hi Samson, as I said to Paul, we're going to have agree to disagree on this one. Bless you.
