"Who did Jesus Pray to"

[Butch5]

Hi Butch
1Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him. In the same way no-one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
What do you think Jesus meant when he said "Let the dead bury their own dead."? And what do you think Paul meant when he told us we were temples of the holy Spirit? bless you.

for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2:11 YLT)

Who has known man except the spirit that is in him? It's my understanding that this is the same spirit or breath that God put into man, the breath of life. The words breath, wind, and spirit are all translated from the same Greek and Hebrew words. The Hebrew words are neshamah and ruach and the Greek words are pneuma and noe. The base definition of these words is wind. They're translated breath because that is essentially wind. When they're translated spirit it is a figurative usage of the words. I think it would be better if they didn't use the word spirit because when one thinks of the English word spirit they usually think of a disembodied living being. However, these Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. When they translate them as spirit they are essentially saying that the Bible is using a figure of speech. I think it would be much better for the reader if they would just translate the words with their definition and let the reader decide if it is a figure of speech or not. The problem is they don't and the reader has no idea that this may be a figure of speech and not a literal statement. Let's translate the passage with the word breath.


for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the breath of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the breath of God.

What is the breath that is in man? It is the breath of life. That is something of God, not man. The passage talks about the thoughts of man. How does man think? What gives him this ability?

Surely a spirit is in man, And the breath of the Mighty One Doth cause them to understand. (Job 32:8 YLT)

In this passage we have the words spirit and breath. The word spirit is ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek and the word breath is the Hebrew word neshamah and the Greek word noe. All four words mean wind or breath. So, this passage says, surely a breath is in man, And the breath of the Mighty One doth cause them to understand. We know there is a breath in man. It is the breath of life. And, it is the breath of the Mighty One because it comes out of God. It is this breath that gives man the ability to understand. Our ability to think and have thoughts comes from the breath of life from God. So, I see this passage as having the breath of God in us and that breath gives us the ability to think, have thoughts, and everything else that we do.

I understand Jesus' statement, let the dead bury their dead as a metaphor. I believe He is using dead as a metaphor for those who are lost. In the context of that passage the man wanted to go and bury his father before he followed Jesus. Those who follow Jesus have life, those who don't, don't.

Regarding Paul's statement, 'your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit', the word you is plural so he was addressing the whole group. I don't understand the passage to be saying each Christian is a temple of the Holy Spirit, but rather I believe he was saying that the Church in Corinth, that body, was a temple of the Holy Spirit. I think it could be argued that the each church body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. I think the passage could be understood either way. However, I think the church body understanding is more likely.

 

[Trevor]

for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2:11 YLT)

Who has known man except the spirit that is in him? It's my understanding that this is the same spirit or breath that God put into man, the breath of life. The words breath, wind, and spirit are all translated from the same Greek and Hebrew words. The Hebrew words are neshamah and ruach and the Greek words are pneuma and noe. The base definition of these words is wind. They're translated breath because that is essentially wind. When they're translated spirit it is a figurative usage of the words. I think it would be better if they didn't use the word spirit because when one thinks of the English word spirit they usually think of a disembodied living being. However, these Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. When they translate them as spirit they are essentially saying that the Bible is using a figure of speech. I think it would be much better for the reader if they would just translate the words with their definition and let the reader decide if it is a figure of speech or not. The problem is they don't and the reader has no idea that this may be a figure of speech and not a literal statement. Let's translate the passage with the word breath.


for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the breath of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the breath of God.

What is the breath that is in man? It is the breath of life. That is something of God, not man. The passage talks about the thoughts of man. How does man think? What gives him this ability?

Surely a spirit is in man, And the breath of the Mighty One Doth cause them to understand. (Job 32:8 YLT)

In this passage we have the words spirit and breath. The word spirit is ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek and the word breath is the Hebrew word neshamah and the Greek word noe. All four words mean wind or breath. So, this passage says, surely a breath is in man, And the breath of the Mighty One doth cause them to understand. We know there is a breath in man. It is the breath of life. And, it is the breath of the Mighty One because it comes out of God. It is this breath that gives man the ability to understand. Our ability to think and have thoughts comes from the breath of life from God. So, I see this passage as having the breath of God in us and that breath gives us the ability to think, have thoughts, and everything else that we do.

I understand Jesus' statement, let the dead bury their dead as a metaphor. I believe He is using dead as a metaphor for those who are lost. In the context of that passage the man wanted to go and bury his father before he followed Jesus. Those who follow Jesus have life, those who don't, don't.

Regarding Paul's statement, 'your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit', the word you is plural so he was addressing the whole group. I don't understand the passage to be saying each Christian is a temple of the Holy Spirit, but rather I believe he was saying that the Church in Corinth, that body, was a temple of the Holy Spirit. I think it could be argued that the each church body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. I think the passage could be understood either way. However, I think the church body understanding is more likely.

hallo Butch, I am a believer that all scripture is God breathed and what is in them is exactly what God intended, and not one jot or tittle is to be altered. I've walked with Jesus for over fifty years and he hasn't let me down yet, and the words in that book have revolutionised my life. I am a renewed person to what I was and whereas I once was in misery, I am now in joy. Many people have questioned translations to encourage me to see scripture in a different light, but I believe if God had wished me to see the written Word in a different light, he would have written it differently. It was the writtenWord, the Sword of the Spirit that Jesus used to defeat Satan in the desert. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. Our salvation rests on understanding the word and I would rather put my faith in the fact that those who translated it did so prayerfully and were highly educated scholars, whom I believe God chose for the task. Many people study scripture, delving into various languages, coming up with differing conclusions, until in the end they end up in total disagreements and so the debates go on and on. Bless you in your studies, but I was told to feed on the Word not study it.

 

[Butch5]

hallo Butch, I am a believer that all scripture is God breathed and what is in them is exactly what God intended, and not one jot or tittle is to be altered. I've walked with Jesus for over fifty years and he hasn't let me down yet, and the words in that book have revolutionised my life. I am a renewed person to what I was and whereas I once was in misery, I am now in joy. Many people have questioned translations to encourage me to see scripture in a different light, but I believe if God had wished me to see the written Word in a different light, he would have written it differently. It was the writtenWord, the Sword of the Spirit that Jesus used to defeat Satan in the desert. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. Our salvation rests on understanding the word and I would rather put my faith in the fact that those who translated it did so prayerfully and were highly educated scholars, whom I believe God chose for the task. Many people study scripture, delving into various languages, coming up with differing conclusions, until in the end they end up in total disagreements and so the debates go on and on. Bless you in your studies, but I was told to feed on the Word not study it.

Hi Trevor,

I too believe that God's word is God breathed. I don't believe that translations are. Having studied the transmission of the word through church history I have seen that certain things have been done to make the translations work with what people believe. A good starting place would be to compare the NT quotes of the OT with both the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts. There are places where they disagree. How does one know which translation is correct? For instance, you're probably familiar with a passage that Paul states in Hebrews.

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.1
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:1
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (Heb. 10:1-6 KJV)

Here Paul makes the argument that the OT sacrifices couldn't take away sins. Then he quotes from the OT that God had prepared a body for Christ. It's a quote from Psalm 40:6. Here is the passage from the Masoretic text.

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.1 (Ps. 40:6 KJV)

Notice there is no mention of "a body thou hast prepared me". That phrase is central to Paul's argument and yet it is not found in the Masoretic text of the passage he quotes. However, it is found in the Greek OT called the Septuagint.

Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require. (Ps. 40:6 LXE)

There are quite a few passages like this. Since they're different we have to ask which translation is correct? I would submit that it is the Septuagint based on the fact that Paul quotes it as it is in the Septuagint and not the Masoretic text. We know Paul was inspired so his quote is correct which means the Septuagint reading is the correct reading. However, most English Bibles have the Masoretic text for their OT. If you look in your Bible you'll likely see the passage says something about the ears. Yet Paul's quote says nothing about ears.

This is why I would encourage you not to just accept what people or translations say. It never hurts to check things out. Even the most earnest of Christians make mistakes. For the most part I think translators do their best to help, but they are human and they make mistakes just like everyone else.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I believe on this one brother we will have to agree to disagree. bless you bro. Trevor

Greetings brother

Let us look at the scriptures, I always keep an open mind, can you confirm scriptures to confirm what you believe?

Bless you

 

[Trevor]

Greetings brother

Let us look at the scriptures, I always keep an open mind, can you confirm scriptures to confirm what you believe?

Bless you

I've already given you the scriptures Paul, It's just that our understandings differ, but as the Lord loves us both, If one of us is in error I'm sure our counsellor will put us right. your a good brother, bless you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

We walk in Faith brother, we Trust in the Lord, we feed on Him, The Word, in our hearts with thanksgiving daily.

Bless you

 

[Trevor]

We walk in Faith brother, we Trust in the Lord, we feed on Him, The Word, in our hearts with thanksgiving daily.

Bless you

Amen.