Vincent
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How do you know?
Why I know that God exists
- Thread starter Ariel K
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Quantrill
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Because the Spirit of God has opened my eyes to the Truth of God and Jesus Christ. The Christian has a 'knowing' that comes from the spirit, not the mind.
Quantrill
Brother-Paul
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Amen brother @Quantrill
Jesus made it very clear...
John 3:3-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
@Vincent - No matter how you try get your head round the thinking you will not.
Jesus says, if you are not born again
- you will not see the Kingdom of God - so you want see it you wont understand it
- you will not enter the Kingdom of God - so if you cannot see it or understand it you won't enter it.
- you MUST BE born again - to be able to see it, understand it and enter the Kingdom of God.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NKJV)
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
All people in the world who are not born again are in the same situation, you must be born-again, or you will not understand, God has veiled the minds of sinners, lost souls from the truth.
There is a battle in the universe, between God and satan, good and evil, but it is not our battle. God loves us and wants the best for us, He let His one and only son die for our sins, so that we can come back to God through him. God is not going to give his enemy his plans, but because the none believer belongs to the devil He had no option but to veil the unbelievers minds from the Truth.
God can do no more, He loves us so much He let His one and only son die for our Sins, we can now come to God through Jesus, Jesus stands at the door of our heart and knocks, but God is a loving God, He will not force Himself on us. We have to open the door and accept Jesus, repent of our sins, submit to God through Jesus. If we don't, it is our choice, we remain in sin, which multiply daily and we will pay the price. We have a choice my friend and we have all been where you are now.
Vincent
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And this cannot be demonstrated. So why should I believe you? I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you have no reasonable evidence to convince me that it is true.
Vincent
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Your own bible says he does not. He hates sinners from birth (Psalm 4:4-5, Psalm 51:5). He can only love the sinless me, which is not me at all. If I was perfect as god requires he would love me, but that would not be me would it. So no, god does not love sinners, he only loves sinless perfect people. Which we are not.
I don't belong to the devil. Please demonstrate that your claim is true?
Why not? Does he want me to be saved or not? If I have sufficient evidence I will believe.
I am well aware of this. Now can you demonstrate that it is true?
Brother-Paul
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John 3:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
God's love is the people of this world, He doesn't want any to perish.
He loves the people of the world so much, He gave His only son to die for our sins so we can be saved.
Saved believers are still sinners, we know we need a saviour, but we are Not perfect my friend.
God Hates SIN but loves the sinner.
Vincent
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These verses are taken from the CARM site.
- Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity."
- Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
- Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
- Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
- Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."
- These say that the God of the bible hates the sinner not just the sin. If he could love you like you are he would not need a savior to wipe away your sins. I love my children even when they do bad things and I forgive them without a sacrifice and while they are still sinners. I do not require them to be without sin before I can love them. God of the Bible does not actually forgive you. He takes away the sin through Jesus so he sees you as perfect and sinless so he can love you and be with you forever. If you have sinned and that is not wiped from your slate, then he will hate you and throw you into hell forever.
Quantrill
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Why should I care if you believe me? As I have said, I am not interested in convincing you.
Quantrill
Vincent
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Ok.
Curtis
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This is the reason why the new birth (being born again) is a requirement because no one can live inside a perfect God where there is no sin or darkness. When a person is born again Jesus Christ who is perfect, and sinless takes up his residence inside that person. A lot of born again Christians have not learned this to be true in their lives. As the scripture says.....
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Only by having Christ live in us are we able to live in God who is light having no darkness at all!
Why do Christians still sin, and fall short? Because we think someday we will be with Jesus when in reality he is living inside us as our new life. If we do not know this then we will continue to struggle to be like Jesus when we already are. The man who is not being a doer of God's Word (which is Christ working through us) has forgotten what manner of man he is.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
All Christians are supposed to let Christ in them be there new life where he talks and works through his body the Church.
This is not an easy task as the "flesh" along with its "lusts" wants to continue to dominate the person.
All Christians have eternal life not because we are good, but because Jesus in us is good. Without that, we would not stand a chance!
Brother-Paul
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Greetings @Vincent
God was angry with his children, you are correct so far. You will remember also Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot. God told Noah to build an ark, he did and the whole world was flooded, only eight people and the animals and birds were saved. What did God say after the flood? He said He would never again flood 'the whole world'. But even though there was a fresh start for mankind it wasn't long before sin increased and his children had to be punished. So you are right with the verses quoted.
But you are failing to see other scriptures, particularly the New Testament. In the OT God promised a Messiah, The Christ, who came, fulfilling prophesy, that is what the Old Testament is about, prophets were told to write down things that would happen in the future, they all lived at different times, they all wrote what they were told to write, but at the time what they wrote didn't make sense to them, each prophesy was a piece of a jigsaw that would only make sense when they come to pass.
So as prophesied, God sent His One and Only Son, who was born in Bethlehem in Judea. God came to dwell amongst us and experience what we experience, but most of all to put straight many misunderstanding from the OT. He was then, as we know crucified, but on the third day rose again, another prophesy.
During His ministry on earth, Jesus did everything the Father had told Him to do, and points us to the Father through Him. Why, because all authority had now been given from the Father to Jesus, He told us, a New Commandment I give unto you, that you love one another 'as I have loved you'. God loves us through His Son. Jesus corrected many wrong ideas of what the Father had said. God the Father instructed and punished the Jews for not obeying Him, that is clear through out the OT. But the situation changed dramatically with Jesus.
God now showed His love for mankind by allowing His Only Son to die on the cross, for our sins. The Jews failed to recognise Jesus as the Christ, the prophesied Messiah, they were blinded by their ways and sins, so salvation was made available to all, Jews and Gentiles, through the OT Promised Messiah, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Everything Jesus taught was based on love, God's love! We are now saved by Grace through Faith, we are free from the Law. There is no hard Fatherly approach anymore, we are free to accept Jesus and His teaching, or we will pay our price at the final judgement, when we will come before Christ and answer for ALL our sins, which includes rejecting God, rejecting God's Love, rejection His one and only son who died for our sins. The choice is now ours. Anyone can now come to the Father, through Jesus and be saved from their sins. Jesus made it perfectly clear, Love one another 'as I have Loved you'. Jesus says, I died for your sins, come to the Father through me, I stand at the door and knock of your heart and knock. But it is up to you, Jesus can do no more, He will not force us, the choice is ours. Accept Jesus and have Eternal Life, every sin we have ever done, said or thought is wiped away, remembered no more, from the second we repent, we are to baptised and submit to Him, floow him, take up our cross daily and learn from him. If we choose not to accept Jesus, that is our decision, but one day soon, everyone who has rejected God's one and only son, will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne and be judged, being reminded, of every sin we have ever done said, or thought. We will not have a say at this point, we had our chance in life and chose to reject God's only son.
Matthew 6:14-15 (NKJV)
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
John 3:16-18 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You see my friend, Jesus changed things, we can come to the Father through Jesus, who did not come into the world to condemn it, but that we 'might' be saved through him. Might be saved, the choice is ours.
In the OT God set the rules, His children disobeyed and were punished. Everything changed at the CROSS, Jesus died for our sins, He shed His blood for our sins, He paid the price we should pay, He paid it in FULL, so that if we are Saved we do not have a price to pay, we only pay the price if we reject Jesus the Christ. He therefore gives us the choice, we have no one to blame for the decision we make. We either come to the Father through Jesus and be saved from all our sins, and receive eternal life, or carry on in this life as we are, loaded with sin and adding to them daily.
God is love, and he showed his love by letting Jesus die for our sins, whilst we are still sinners.
Jesus stands at the door of our heart and knocks, He cannot do any more, He did all He could on the CROSS, this is the point we have to choose, the choice is ours.
Vincent
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You missed my point. I know the gospel message. God cannot be with you in heaven if you have sin that is unatoned for. My point is that there are many verses in the bible that say God hates the sinner not just the sin. If you have sinned then god hates you and will punish you in hell. So unless you are sinless god cannot love you. My point is that a sinless me or you is not really you or me. I do good and bad things and that makes me who I am today. I am not perfect, no one is, so god only loves a perfect person which is not us. This is my point.
Vincent
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I know the gospel message. I think you missed my point. My point is that we as perfect sinless people are not the same person as we are today. We are made form good and bad actions that we take and God cannot love us as we are. He actually hates us according to the bible as the verses I quoted above point out. I love my children no matter what they do, they do not need a sacrifice for me to love them or forgive them. The gospel is not about forgiveness it is about removing your sins so god can love you and be with you for eternity. If god actually forgave us he would not need an atoning sacrifice. I hope this makes sense.
Curtis
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Nobody is perfect except Jesus in every Christian. That's the whole point. This is why the scripture says....."....It is no longer "I" that lives, but Christ in me...." (Gal 2:20)
Brother-Paul
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With respect, if you knew the Gospel message you would know why Jesus had to die, He was the one true sacrifice, once for all.
You are dwelling on what God said in the OT. Jesus changed the old order, God shows His love for mankind through His son, He did so by Jesus shedding is blood on the cross for us.
From that point on we come to the Father through Jesus, (or not at all), Jesus is, The Way, The Truth, The Life, No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, all authority in Heaven and in earth was given to Jesus.
God hates sin but loves the sinner, for God so loved the world...
The new order is, we have a choice, there are only two options, God keeps things simple, it is man that complicates things.
Option 1 - we accept Jesus, we repent of our sins, we are baptised, we say with our lips (easy) and mean in our heart (this is where people fall) what scripture tells us to say and mean, a declaration of our faith.
Option - 2 - we don't accept and pay the price.
Either way there is a price to pay.
Option - 1 - Jesus has paid the price for us IN FULL.
Option - 2 - Because we choose not to accept Jesus, we pay the price IN FULL
Jesus stands at the door of your heart right now, which do you choose?
It is nobody's choice but yours, every person gets the same choice, God keeps it simple.
I pray now, or in the not to distant future you make the right choice. In Jesus Name. Amen.
Vincent
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I agree. I don't think I have explained my point very well. Can you be in heaven if your sin is still attached to you? God does not forgive sin he removes it and gives it to Jesus. Because you cannot be with god if you have ever sinned. This is the gospel. My point is that the way you are is not lovable to god, you must be perfect for him to love you and I am saying a perfect me or you is not who you are or I am. He loves Christ not you, the verse you quoted says it. Like I said, I love my children no matter what they do, they don't need to be perfect.
Vincent
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I agree this is what the bible says.
I have shown that the bible disagrees with you.
I agree this is what the bible says. BTW, This is not a choice. Is, "do what I say or I will kill your child" a choice? No.
I am not disagreeing with any of this. This is the gospel message. I am talking about the implication of that message. Which is that god cannot love you unless you are sinless and a sinless you or me is not who we are. God hates sinners not just the sin as the bible says.
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Hello Vincent,
Been awhile if I remember correctly. :smile:
Hopefully this doesn't rehash previously gone over ground and not only from this thread.
I believe in a Resurrected Christ, who declared himself the Son of God. To me it would just make sense that who better to know God then His only begotten Son? This is my confirmation of what I came to realize as a child that long ago night by looking at the heavens. There is a God Vincent. :smile:
How I came to be drawn by Him, to Jesus, and to make by declaration of my belief in Him is in my bio. As with many here who have added their own testimony, and the one you had when you first joined. It leaves me to ask what exactly drew you away from when you first believed, and as Brother Amadeus asked; what was it that you believed?
Personally I see a Supernatural occurrence like Paul's Damascus Road experience is the only thing a self-proclaiming Atheist seek to have, before they'll believe. While the reality for many is usually more of a tugging of your Spirit, which of course for the Atheist is conjecture at best on one existing, or is attributed to this or that.
There is enough evidence that Jesus the Christ lived, died on the Cross, and if you believe those who died for their faith in Him, in His Resurrection as well. Something tells me you're probably more of an Agnostic, then actually Atheist, but regardless if it's one of these, or anything in between. Without Jesus as your Savior, you really have nothing but self.
So, my hope and I'm sure of others here. Is that you will reach out to His hand that has always been extended to you. Not only in welcome, but for an embrace of a complete Love which is found nowhere else.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
Brother-Paul
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@Vincent
Jesus says, unless you become like little children you will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.
Very simple I think, you won't see it in this life or the next, you therefore won't understand it.
I thank you for the things you say you agree with, but with the second item your continue referring to the OT passages. As I have explained this to you and you have chosen not to listened but keep referring back to those passages, therefore I brush the sand of my shoes and move on.
One thing I would mention, if I may, before I move on, every born-again believer has been where you are my friend, it is not until we submit like little children, it is not until the spirit dwells in us that everything makes sense. Could we understand it previously No, can we explain it now, only in part, only God can explain it to you but you have to open your heart to Him.
It is incredibly amazing when we look back, but prior to that point it couldn't make sense, we were veiled from the Truth due to our sins. Can we see through a window if the curtains are closed blocking the light. No. Can you see through a door without opening it. No.
My prayer is that God will reveal the Truth to you, but unless you open the door it won't happen, you have made your choice.
One day Lord please, one day. In Jesus Name. Amen
Jesus says, unless you become like little children you will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.
Very simple I think, you won't see it in this life or the next, you therefore won't understand it.
I thank you for the things you say you agree with, but with the second item your continue referring to the OT passages. As I have explained this to you and you have chosen not to listened but keep referring back to those passages, therefore I brush the sand of my shoes and move on.
One thing I would mention, if I may, before I move on, every born-again believer has been where you are my friend, it is not until we submit like little children, it is not until the spirit dwells in us that everything makes sense. Could we understand it previously No, can we explain it now, only in part, only God can explain it to you but you have to open your heart to Him.
It is incredibly amazing when we look back, but prior to that point it couldn't make sense, we were veiled from the Truth due to our sins. Can we see through a window if the curtains are closed blocking the light. No. Can you see through a door without opening it. No.
My prayer is that God will reveal the Truth to you, but unless you open the door it won't happen, you have made your choice.
One day Lord please, one day. In Jesus Name. Amen
Curtis
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Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Every human being that has, and will ever live on planet earth has already sinned. No one can be perfect except Jesus. To become "righteous" (which means to be in right standings with God) is by "faith" of Jesus, and in Jesus!!
All believers are declared "righteous" because Jesus gave us his faith, so we can have faith in him. You can not go wrong, unless you make the choice to not believe what Jesus gives you!
