Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

[Sue D.]

So -- apply all of that to the book of Revelation and what sounds 'weird' Now - - won't be so weird in the future that We're facing.

I grew up with TV. and all the really good family shows,. And I've also seen how it's content has changed so radically. And , yes, our friend in the corner has become so engrained in us that even though we are disappointed in TV content Now -- kick and holler - Hoping that someone in the entertainment business will wake up and adjust the contents -- but They also know that 'we' become adjusted to more and more junk. Because it's being portrayed by good looking men and women. They make the raunchy stuff look better than it is. And actually 'we' don't See the really bad stuff on TV. We don't see the drugged out women or men on the streets who are willing to sell themselves in order to survive. Well -- it Is depicted in programs like "Major Crimes"

And, some of us Have been through lot of stuff and can personally see how God CAN change a person from inside out.

And I've heard people who say they Don't need God cause they got out of a rotten life Without Him. They just didn't see His Hand working.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I grew up with TV. and all the really good family shows,. And I've also seen how it's content has changed so radically. And , yes, our friend in the corner has become so engrained in us that even though we are disappointed in TV content Now -- kick and holler - Hoping that someone in the entertainment business will wake up and adjust the contents -- but They also know that 'we' become adjusted to more and more junk. Because it's being portrayed by good looking men and women. They make the raunchy stuff look better than it is. And actually 'we' don't See the really bad stuff on TV. We don't see the drugged out women or men on the streets who are willing to sell themselves in order to survive. Well -- it Is depicted in programs like "Major Crimes"

Greetings Sue

I think because TV has been around since the mid 1950's we have all grown up with, at first even black and white people couldn't afford it but from 1960 it started to grow and grow with more and more people tuning in as they say.

But it was good honest, clean, funny programs. Now a days it is sin, sin, sin. We all have a choice we do not have to watch it but do so by habit. There is a drop of poison in every glass, sin galore in program after program, but people still watch it. many leave there tv on and go in another room, which is also crazy, wasting electricity, and showing the producers viewing ratings that people are watch the stuff even if they are not there all the time.

If it wasn't for my wife I would get rid of the tv completely, I don't want, sex scenes, violence, killing, all I watch is, news, nature programs, formula 1, some documentaries, that is it. We don't have sports channels, we don't have movie channels, they cannot seem to make films nowadays without sex, violence, killing, swearing, men kissing men and women kissing woman, sexual suggestiveness etc.

Films are dressed up, take Love Actually, quite a good film, then they add short clips of stuff that doesn't need to be in it. take Mama Mia, the music of Abba songs, a story of a slapper who had been with numerous men, her daughter and her didn't know who the dad was, yet it was made to be funny with Abba music. Any goes in this world at this time, and in the anything sin is intertwined to be acceptable and funny.

And I've heard people who say they Don't need God cause they got out of a rotten life Without Him. They just didn't see His Hand working.

I have been there Sue, I didn't need a God, I didn't need a crutch to get me through, I was in charge of my life, I had been hurt by so many, no one would hurt me again. You harden up all the time, the world jokes there are three sexes, men, women and priests and much worse. They take the mickey out of The Word, they don't need it, they don't want it, they are getting on fine, so they think, so I thought. They say, I have said, people go to church because they are old, they join the club and believe anything before it is to late, we know it is not true, but the church portrays itself as such, sad people who go together once a week and come out thinking they are righteous, yet are bigger sinners that some outside. They go and do their thing behind closed doors, they do not know what life is about. They do not know what fun is, they do not no how to have a good time. Because many do go to places of worship once a week, for a top up of the spirit to see them through till next Sunday, there is no wonder none believers see things this way.

Jesus went to the Temple regularly, but all the rest of His ministry time was out on the road, not behind closed doors.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (NKJV)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NKJV)
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings

I worded the post as I did for a reason, I am sure you picked up on the reason, I separated the components of the God created body to Flesh, Spirit and Soul, due to them having been referred to in previous ways further back in the thread, and also for us to clearly define them as God intended, and not talk of the lost sinners being thrown into the lake of fire, should that be the case. As we know the flesh would burn in an instant, so was it the spirit/soul that would burn in the lake of fire? Should they be thrown there.

So the aim, though maybe not as clear as I had hoped was to consider the flesh, spirit, soul for believers and none believers and to consider based on what a person thinks at that time what happens to them, should we be discussing believers or none believers. There seemed to me to be some hairy fairy type thoughts, or they seemed that way because it wasn't clear what the writer may be referring to when stating the body would be thrown into the lake of fire.

Moving on, Jesus refers to the Spirit as like the wind.

John 3:8 (NKJV)
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Here as you state the word 'Spirit' is the word pneuma

Greek Strong's Number: 4151
Greek Word: πνεῦμα
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Pronunciation:pnyoo'-mah
Root: from <G4154>
Vine's Words: Breath, Breathe, Spirit, Wind

English Words used in KJV:
Spirit 111
(Holy) Ghost 89
Spirit (of God) 13
Spirit (of the Lord) 5
(My) Spirit 3
Spirit (of truth) 3
Spirit (of Christ) 2
human (spirit) 49
(evil) spirit 47
spirit (general) 26
spirit 8
(Jesus' own) spirit 6
(Jesus' own) ghost 2
miscellaneous translations 21
[Total Count: 385]

from <G4154> (pneo); a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figurative a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implicaiton) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, dæmon,
OR
(divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit :- ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

I agree with this. Neshamah, ruach, and pneuma all mean wind or breath. The word spirit is a figurative use of the word. I've gone through these words along with Hades and Nephesh

 

[Sue D.]

The Holy Spirit Is 'Spirit' because God is Spirit -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a person at the moment of their salvation.

 

[Butch5]

So, to look at man, we see in Gen 2:7 that man consists of the dust of the earth.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

We see that man consists of the dust or elements of the earth. That's what a man is. Then we see that God breathed into the man the breath of life. The word used here for breath in the Hebrew is Neshamah. In the Greek Old Testament it is pnoa, which means wind or breath. When God did this man became a living soul. We see from this that it is the breath of life which animated the man. We are also told that this breath gives man certain abilities.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

The word spirit in this verse is the Hebrew word ruach and in the Greek OT it is pneuma. So, this passage says there is a wind or breath in man, and the wind or breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. Here Job says that there is a breath in man. We kmow from Gen 2:7 that that breath is the breath of life from God. Job goes on toe say that this breath from the Almighty gives man understanding. So, we are able to reason because of this breath of God that is in man.

The Divine Spirit is that which formed me, and the breath of the Almighty that which teaches me. (Job 33:4 LXE)

Here we have pneuma and pnoe. We see that Job says that the divine breath formed him and the breath of the Almighty teaches him.

3 As long as my breath is in me, And the breath of God in my nostrils, (Job 27:3 NKJ)

Here was have a Hebrew parallelism. That's where the writer says something and repeats it using different words. In this passage, "my breath is in me" is the same as "the breath of God is in my nostrils". The Hewbew words for breath are Neshamah and ruach in that order. The Greek words are pnoe and pneuma in that order.

It's interesting to see that it is the breath of life that enables man to think and reason. That explains what David said though,

His breath shall go forth, and he shall return to his earth; in that day all his thoughts shall perish. (Ps. 146:4 LXA)

We know from Ecc 12 that when a man dies the breath returns to God. Since it's the breath that gives man understanding it makes sense that when the breath leaves the man his thoughts perish. Solomon tells us the same thing.

For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost. (Eccl. 9:5 LXA)


I'll leave this here for now. It's something to think about and discuss.

 

[Br. Bear]

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Thessalonians 4:13-18

 

[Brother-Paul]

The issue here I feel is translation.

I agree with @Butch5 with his explanation of the translation, the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is referred to as wind and the breath of God.

So why do we have an issue between what seems like three options?

First we have to go back to catholic teaching which over the years became accepted as Holy Ghost, I understand that their translation ghost is because the spirit does not have body. We can argue neither does wind, but this is what seems to be what they decided and why.

In 1611 the KJV Bible was produced and used the term Holy Ghost, since then the KJV has also used Holy Spirit which is considered a more modern translation. The rue translations are as brother Butch5 has quoted...

We see that man consists of the dust or elements of the earth. That's what a man is. Then we see that God breathed into the man the breath of life. The word used here for breath in the Hebrew is Neshamah. In the Greek Old Testament it is pnoa, which means wind or breath. When God did this man became a living soul. We see from this that it is the breath of life which animated the man. We are also told that this breath gives man certain abilities.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

The word spirit in this verse is the Hebrew word ruach and in the Greek OT it is pneuma. So, this passage says there is a wind or breath in man, and the wind or breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. Here Job says that there is a breath in man. We kmow from Gen 2:7 that that breath is the breath of life from God. Job goes on toe say that this breath from the Almighty gives man understanding. So, we are able to reason because of this breath of God that is in man.

The Divine Spirit is that which formed me, and the breath of the Almighty that which teaches me. (Job 33:4 LXE)

Here we have pneuma and pnoe. We see that Job says that the divine breath formed him and the breath of the Almighty teaches him.

3 As long as my breath is in me, And the breath of God in my nostrils, (Job 27:3 NKJ)

Here was have a Hebrew parallelism. That's where the writer says something and repeats it using different words. In this passage, "my breath is in me" is the same as "the breath of God is in my nostrils". The Hewbew words for breath are Neshamah and ruach in that order. The Greek words are pnoe and pneuma in that order.

It's interesting to see that it is the breath of life that enables man to think and reason. That explains what David said though,

His breath shall go forth, and he shall return to his earth; in that day all his thoughts shall perish. (Ps. 146:4 LXA)

We know from Ecc 12 that when a man dies the breath returns to God. Since it's the breath that gives man understanding it makes sense that when the breath leaves the man his thoughts perish. Solomon tells us the same thing.

For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost. (Eccl. 9:5 LXA)

The 15th, 16th and 17th century English translators used “ghost” to translate the Latin “spiritus,” which in turn was a translation of the Greek “pneuma”. The Douay Rheims uses “Holy Ghost” 95 times, and “Holy Spirit” 8 times.

Which is right? They are but translations, wind and breath of God as Butch5 states are the correct meanings.

The first quote 'Holy Spirit' in the Bible (translation) in KJV is...

Psalm 51:11 (NKJV)
Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

The second is

Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV)
But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.

Holy - <H6944>
Hebrew Word: ‏קֹדֶשׁ‎
Transliteration: qōdesh
Phonetic Pronunciation:ko'-desh

Spirit - <H7307>
Hebrew Word: ‏רוּחַ‎
Transliteration: rûaḥ
Phonetic Pronunciation:roo'-akh

from <H7306> (ruwach); wind; by resemblance breath,

Vine's Words: Spirit

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

These are the only two in the OT and they are both translated from the same Hebrew words.


The following are the only translations in the NT for 'Holy Spirit' and all are translated from the same words stated below.

Holy - <G0040>
Greek Word: ἅγιος
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Pronunciation:hag'-ee-os

Spirit <G4151>
Greek Word: πνεῦμα
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Pronunciation:pnyoo'-mah

Vine's Words: Breath, Breathe, Spirit, Wind

from <G4154> (pneo); a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figurative a spirit,

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Luke 11:13 (NKJV)
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV)
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 (NKJV)
Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Although the word Holy Ghost was accepted by the RCC, Holy Spirit became used more since the 20th century, the term became universally accepted by all denominations and were the words taught to congregation. This should not be taken as the correct meaning, but the used translation, the true meaning is as Butch5 has stated, wind or breath of God.

It is clear the meaning was known but was not taught in places of worship, one exampe wuld be the hymn/song...
Breath on me Breath of God... which was written in the late 1800's.

 

[Brother-Paul]

So, to look at man, we see in Gen 2:7 that man consists of the dust of the earth.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

I remember reading a few year back although now I cannot find the details.

Scientists have checked every chemical in man, and cannot find one chemical in him that has not come from the earth. Every chemical found in man can be found in the earth.

Man was made from the dust of the earth, as God confirms he formed him.

Thanks be to God.

 

[Butch5]

I remember reading a few year back although now I cannot find the details.

Scientists have checked every chemical in man, and cannot find one chemical in him that has not come from the earth. Every chemical found in man can be found in the earth.

Man was made from the dust of the earth, as God confirms he formed him.

Thanks be to God.

Yeah, science has established that all of the elements in man are found in the earth.

 

[Butch5]

As Brother Paul has shown, the English word "spirit" is a figurative usage of Pneuma. It's also a figurative usage of the Hebrew words Neshamah and Ruach. When we see the word "spirit" in our Bible we know that it's a figure of speech. If using the word "spirit" is a figure of speech, what is the figure? What does it mean? The Hebrew words Neshamah and ruach mean wind or breath. The Greek words, pneuma and pnoe mean wind or breath also. So why is the English word "spirit' used for wind? Jesus gives the best example.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

Jesus said the wind blows where it will and you cannot tell where it comes from. However, even though we can't see the wind or know where it comes from or where it goes, we can see the effects of the wind. We can see the tress blowing. We can feel the wind against our skin. We can struggle against the wind when we walk. If you ask most people what a spirit is, they will say it is some form of living being that doesn't have a body. The problem is, this is the figure. People have exchanged the figure for the definition. Angels and demons are called "spirits". Why? Its a figure. Just like the wind, we cannot see an angle or demon, we don't know where they come from or where they go. However, we can see the effects of angels and demons. They can do things in the physical world. They can move things. In the Scriptures we see they're able to control people. It's in this sense that they are like the wind. We see the same thing with God. We can't see God, we don't know where He comes from or where He goes. However, we can see the effects of God. We can see His creation. We can see when He does miracles and so on. In this sense God is referred to as spirit, or wind. The Scriptures say God is wind (spirit). This is why.

The problem is that people have taken these words, Neshamah, ruach, pneuma, and pnoe, and replaced the definition with the figure. So now when people read the Scriptures and see these words translated as spirit, they read this idea of a disembodied life form into the text instead of reading the word wind. The English words, wind and spirit have two completely different meanings. The Greek and Hebrew readers only the word wind. It was up to the reader to determine if wind was being used literally or figuratively.

 

[Butch5]

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Thessalonians 4:13-18

This translation is more accurate.

or if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, (1 Thess. 4:14 YLT)

the word bring is better translated Lead. In this passage, "sleep in Jesus" is not accurate. The Greek word is "dia" and not "en". Dia means througth, not in. The Greek prepositon "en"means in. So, this passage says that God, through Jesus, will lead the dead. God, through and with Jesus will lead forth the dead.

 

[Dave M]

There is no valid reason to conclude from this passage that people go to heaven when they die

I know your stance is that we dont go to heaven

, so then, why does Jesus tell us to store up treasure in heaven?? if we aint going their?

Matthew 6:19-20
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[Butch5]

I know your stance is that we dont go to heaven

, so then, why does Jesus tell us to store up treasure in heaven?? if we aint going their?

Matthew 6:19-20
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Hi Dave,

I beleive what Jesus is referring to here is the idea that one day we will be judged and a record is being kept in Heaven. The Scriptures tell us we will be judged according to our works. By doing good deeds that are being recorded, so to speak, in Heaven we are storing up treasure.

 

[Dave M]

Hi Butch thanks for both of your polite replies it is appreciated.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch thanks for both of your polite replies it is appreciated.

You're welcome my friend!

 

[Wnl]

Hi All,
FOOD FOR THOUGHT EVERYBODY AND CONSIDERATION

PHYSICAL BURNING IN PHYSICAL FIRE FOREVER,
Is this position COMPATIBLE with the list below.

God is love, Love your enemy, Love your neighbor as yourself,
Forgive, 7x7, Turn the other cheek, Kind, tolerance,
Cherish, And many others that I'm sure you could add to this list.

Your desire one day is to judge with Jesus, if you know this, how can
you love your neighbor who is not a believer, knowing that you are
going to send them to Hell.

If your child lied to you and didn't say sorry, will you beat them
day and night forever

Would you as judge cast your unbelieving child into hell.

This post is just to think of the reality of hypercritical positions
that you might take.
I'm not being judgemental, it's just to give you food for thought.

With Love, Wnl

 

[Butch5]

On a side note I wanted to touch on the Greek word "aion" again. As has been shown Jesus spoke of the end of the aion and of this aion and the one to come. These passages show that aion cannot mean forever. The Hebrew word that is often translated aion in the Greek Old Testament is olam. This is the meaning of olam. As you can see, olam doesn't mean eternal. It simply means to the horizon and beyond. This is the concept that aion in the Greek Scriptures is portraying. Both olam and aion are used of finite periods of time so they can't mean forever.

 

[B-A-C]

These passages show that aion cannot mean forever. The Hebrew word that is often translated aion in the Greek Old Testament is olam. This is the meaning of olam.

No they don't.
Hebrew is not Greek, Greek in not Hebrew. The new Testament wasn't written in Hebrew. Trying to translate the old testament into the new testament
and the new testament into the old testament is false justification of translation. The Bible says what it means, and means what it says.

If you have to close your left eye every third word, and blink your right eye every fourth word, and reverse the letters every fifth word...
You're probably confused. The Bible isn't that hard.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I know your stance is that we dont go to heaven

, so then, why does Jesus tell us to store up treasure in heaven?? if we aint going their?

Matthew 6:19-20
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Hi Dave,

I beleive what Jesus is referring to here is the idea that one day we will be judged and a record is being kept in Heaven. The Scriptures tell us we will be judged according to our works. By doing good deeds that are being recorded, so to speak, in Heaven we are storing up treasure.

Do you not think that what Jesus is saying in this message is...

Don't trust in worldly treasures, material items, worldly wealth, materialism. On earth these things can rust, be eaten by moths, be stolen. Instead trust in God, spiritual things do not rust, get eaten, get stolen, where your treasure is your heart is also.

 

[Butch5]

Do you not think that what Jesus is saying in this message is...

Don't trust in worldly treasures, material items, worldly wealth, materialism. On earth these things can rust, be eaten by moths, be stolen. Instead trust in God, spiritual things do not rust, get eaten, get stolen, where your treasure is your heart is also.

I think that falls in there too.