Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

[Brother-Paul]

Moving on in the study, Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

The question, I think has to be, which parts of the God created human body go where?

1 - The flesh body is from the dust of the earth.
2 - God put a living soul in Adam and all others since.
3 - God breathed into him, and all others since the Spirit of life.

Some say body + spirit = soul
Some say each are separate but together they make one human being.

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust of the earth, God breath of life and soul, I start with soul.

Hebrew Strong's Number: 5315
Hebrew Word: ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎
Transliteration: nepesh
Phonetic Pronunciation: neh'-fesh
Root: from <H5314>
Vine's Words: None

English Words used in KJV:
soul 475
life 117
person 29
mind 15
heart 15
creature 9
body 8
himself 8
yourselves 6
dead 5
will 4
desire 4
man 3
themselves 3
any 3
appetite 2
miscellaneous translations 47
[Total Count: 753]

from <H5314> (naphash); properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) :- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead (-ly), desire, × [dis-] contented, × fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

I believe when we are talking of what happens to the complete flesh body that God created, at the point when man takes his last breath, we must consider what happens to each of these three components, individually at first, where they go and what happens to them. But I also think each component should be considered for both the sheep and also for the goats, the saved and the lost.

We must therefore reply on scripture translations and the original Greek and Hebrew to find the answers together. One we have discussed these bodily components and considered then for the saved and the lost, it should, I think, better help us consider the hades, sheol, geenna, eternal fire, etc.

Hopefully this will give us a better understanding, when people say a person is thrown into the eternal fire! Do they actually mean the person, the body, the spirit, the soul, one of these, part of these or none are thrown in the eternal fire. What happens to the components of the believers and the unbelievers, according to The Word.

I am hoping that my comments here make sense and we can discuss these things together to better understand a subject so many avoid for obvious reasons. My thoughts are shouldn't we know, what if what we think is wrong, I would prefer to know what God's Word truly means regarding this subject.

In His Love.

 

[Sue D.]

God's Word was written for Every one -- not simply one group of people. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World....... that who- so- ever believeth......"

To the Jew first and also to the Gentiles -- the rest of us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

God's Word was written for Every one -- not simply one group of people. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World....... that who- so- ever believeth......"

To the Jew first and also to the Gentiles -- the rest of us.

So true Sue

But not all will be saved, it is important to know what happens to the saved and the lost, I think so.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Some will still reject the gift of salvation, they prefer sin and the world, according to our Lord, they are condemned, no correction, they have condemned themselves, that is what scripture says.

 

[Butch5]

The Scriptures are "for" everyone, but they weren't written "to" everyone. There is no letter to the church in America or France, etc.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings brother

The New Jerusalem that 'comes down' from Heaven, sizes and description given in scripture, it also includes, the Tree of Life, one river instead of two like in Eden, but with trees on either side of the river that bear fruit, each one, twelve fruits over twelve months.

The New Jerusalem 'comes down' from Heaven 'onto earth' when Christ has made all things new.

Emmanuel God with us.

Hi Brother Paul,

I don't believe that Revelation is literally means a city will descend from the sky. I think it's figurative language. Peter spoke of the "restitution of all things". Isaiah prophesied of a Jerusalem in which there would be no more tears.

17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa. 65:17-25 NKJ)

Notice God said He creates Jerusalem as a rejoicing. Then He says, "The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her". This would indicate that weeping was heard in her. He also says that the voice of crying will be heard in her. Again, this would indicate that cry had been heard in her. It seems from this that this Jerusalem that God will create as a rejoicing has existed prior to this happening. Today the voice of weeping and crying is heard in Jerusalem.

 

[Butch5]

Moving on in the study, Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

The question, I think has to be, which parts of the God created human body go where?

1 - The flesh body is from the dust of the earth.
2 - God put a living soul in Adam and all others since.
3 - God breathed into him, and all others since the Spirit of life.

Some say body + spirit = soul
Some say each are separate but together they make one human being.

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust of the earth, God breath of life and soul, I start with soul.

Hebrew Strong's Number: 5315
Hebrew Word: ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎
Transliteration: nepesh
Phonetic Pronunciation: neh'-fesh
Root: from <H5314>
Vine's Words: None

English Words used in KJV:
soul 475
life 117
person 29
mind 15
heart 15
creature 9
body 8
himself 8
yourselves 6
dead 5
will 4
desire 4
man 3
themselves 3
any 3
appetite 2
miscellaneous translations 47
[Total Count: 753]

from <H5314> (naphash); properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) :- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead (-ly), desire, × [dis-] contented, × fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

I believe when we are talking of what happens to the complete flesh body that God created, at the point when man takes his last breath, we must consider what happens to each of these three components, individually at first, where they go and what happens to them. But I also think each component should be considered for both the sheep and also for the goats, the saved and the lost.

We must therefore reply on scripture translations and the original Greek and Hebrew to find the answers together. One we have discussed these bodily components and considered then for the saved and the lost, it should, I think, better help us consider the hades, sheol, geenna, eternal fire, etc.

Hopefully this will give us a better understanding, when people say a person is thrown into the eternal fire! Do they actually mean the person, the body, the spirit, the soul, one of these, part of these or none are thrown in the eternal fire. What happens to the components of the believers and the unbelievers, according to The Word.

I am hoping that my comments here make sense and we can discuss these things together to better understand a subject so many avoid for obvious reasons. My thoughts are shouldn't we know, what if what we think is wrong, I would prefer to know what God's Word truly means regarding this subject.

In His Love.

Hi Brother Paul,
I agree with a lot of what you said here. I would submit though that the soul is not a part of man but rather the whole of man. Gen 2:7 says that when God breathed his breath or spirit into the man, the man became a living soul. To me this indicates that the two components, the body and the breath/spirit, when put together form something new. It would be the same as if we added one molecule of oxygen to two molecules of hydrogen. When these two are combined something new is formed.

I agree with the definitions of soul as, concretely, a breathing creature, and abstractly as vitality or life.

One other thing I would add as we do this is that, in the Hebrew and Greek, breath and spirit are the same word. The English word spirit is a figurative usage of the Greek word Pneuma and the Hebrew words, Neshamah and ruach. So, when we see the word spirit in our English Bible we should consider that this s a figure of speech. I've found it useful, to understanding the Bible, to avoid the word spirit and simply use the word wind or breath in it's place. The reason I say this is because the original readers saw the word wind and they interpreted it as such. It was up to the reader to figure out if it was a figure of speech or if it was literal. In our English Bibles the translators have taken it upon themselves to determine for us whether it is literal or figurative. That's fine as long as they're correct. I think in some places they're not. Our English word spirit has the connotation of a ghost. The readers of the original texts saw no such thing as the words they saw meant wind. Wind and spirit in English conjure up, pun intended, two completely different ideas.

 

[Butch5]

I do agree with a lot of what you have put here.

Presuppositions not only affect our thoughts about things, they also mould our thoughts to fit our thinking, presuppositions come from many sources, including experiences in life, what we are told or have heard from others, but also from patterns created and followed in denominations.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

We all accept scripture as The Truth in the Word, but many times reproof and correction for instruction in righteousness, from other brothers and sisters, is not graciously accepted but taking in a conflicting manner. We are to Love one another, but what happens to that love when our faith and beliefs are challenged, that love seems to disappear and is dealt with like salt rubbed into an open wound.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV2011)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NJB)
All scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people's lives and teaching them to be upright.
This is how someone who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work.

All scripture is God breathed, and is inspired by Him, for teaching, refuting error, correcting presuppositions and wrong thinking, so that we may be good servants, obedient children of God, fully equipped to teach others in love and bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hi Brother Paul,

I'm not knocking presuppositions. We all have them. As you said, we form them from our experiences in life. My point was that it's these presuppositions through which we filter our experiences. When we look at the Scriptures it's through these presuppositions that we interpret the text. What we believe before reading the Scriptures determines how we understand the Scriptures. I think in order to really get a grasp on the Scriptures we need try to set a side our presuppositions and read the text for what it says.

 

[Sue D.]

The Scriptures are "for" everyone, but they weren't written "to" everyone. There is no letter to the church in America or France, etc.

That's because those countries didn't Exit at that time.

They Were written to the churches of Ephesus, Corinth, etc. places that Did exist at that time in history.

Revelation 1:1-3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophesy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

God's Word says that the New Jerusalem is going to be brought down from heaven -- It Will be brought down.

We Do need to let the Holy Spirit teach us -- we need to be teachable.


And really, what's the difference between For and To. It's the same thing. You like to 'split hairs'.

 

[Butch5]

KJV Ps. 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
16 All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

Greetings,

popping back to Abraham and Heaven we do have this passage to consider

5 ¶And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, "I will come and heal him."
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
11 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
12 "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, "Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee." And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Matthew 8:5-13

some of which resonates with Matthew 25:30 and Matthew 22:13

so, may i ask, what and/or where is 'outer darkness' ? [as well as who gets turfed there]


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br. Bear,

There's not a lot on this phrase so I'm not sure that we can say for certain. In the Old Testament we are told that the wicked gnash their teeth at the righteous.

KJV Ps. 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
KJV Lam. 2:16 All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

From this it seems that gnashing of teeth is more related to anger than pain. What's interesting is that Jesus uses the phrase, weeping and gnashing of teeth with both fire and outer darkness. But, He doesn't use fire and outer darkness in the same phrase. From this it seems to me that weeping and gnashing of teeth is in anger. As to what outer darkness means it's hard to say.

 

[Butch5]

That's because those countries didn't Exit at that time.

They Were written to the churches of Ephesus, Corinth, etc. places that Did exist at that time in history.

Revelation 1:1-3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophesy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

God's Word says that the New Jerusalem is going to be brought down from heaven -- It Will be brought down.

We Do need to let the Holy Spirit teach us -- we need to be teachable.


And really, what's the difference between For and To. It's the same thing. You like to 'split hairs'.

The difference between "for" and "to" is immense.

Yes, Revelation says that the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. The book also says that John saw Jesus who looked like a slain lamb with seven eyes. People saw Jesus all through the Gospels and no one describes Him as looking like that. Could it be that it's figurative? Revelation also tells us that there was horse whose rider's name was death and Hades followed with him. Could this be figurative? In Revelation the city of Babylon is referred to as a harlot. Could this be figurative? The book of Revelation is full of symbolism.

 

[Sue D.]

Maybe 'outer darkness' simply means what it says. The space around us -- outer darkness -- because there is also Inner darkness. Spiritual darkness.

And Maybe the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be due to the anguish of realizing where the particular person Is and will be Forever. And Maybe part of the agony will be realizing all the times and people who had Tried to warn the person About their eternal destination and they laughed at the people , maybe ridiculed them. And NOW that person discovers what they were being warned about was True. But that it's Now too late.

 

[Sue D.]

And Revelation Also full of Facts. God chose to give us that information in the form of a vision to John -- for a Reason.

Do you realize that maybe 20 yrs. ago -- if someone would have told us that people would use a cell phone to talk on -- 'we' would have thought they were crazy. Back Then in history, a phone was something that was dialed and either sat on a table to hung on a wall. It was connected by a chord. And Now -- a cell phone is Old news. There's now Instagram -- and Smart Phones, etc.

And remember even further back in history -- there were No T.V's or only black and white -- and computers weren't even heard of.

My point is that our world of technowledgy develops so fast -- that it's hard telling what's going to be common place in the future that now is 'symbolism' but will be as plain as day and real in the future.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The Scriptures are "for" everyone, but they weren't written "to" everyone. There is no letter to the church in America or France, etc.

Greetings brother

Does a country have to be mentioned, I don't think so, the world is made up of Jews and Greeks/Jews and Gentiles, all Jews and all gentiles. But we should always consider Jews first.

Romans 1:16-17 (NKJV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Romans 2:5-11 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 1:8 (NKJV)
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Luke 24:46-47 (NKJV)
Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Scripture therefore is to the Jews first and ALSO to the Gentiles, all Jews first, all Gentiles in all nations second.

Shalom

 

[Butch5]

Greetings brother

Does a country have to be mentioned, I don't think so, the world is made up of Jews and Greeks/Jews and Gentiles, all Jews and all gentiles. But we should always consider Jews first.

Romans 1:16-17 (NKJV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Romans 2:5-11 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 1:8 (NKJV)
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Luke 24:46-47 (NKJV)
Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Scripture therefore is to the Jews first and ALSO to the Gentiles, all Jews first, all Gentiles in all nations second.

Shalom

Ho Brother Paul,

I think you may have missed my point. I was making the difference between "for" and "to". For example, Paul said to the Corinthians that he couldn't speak to them as spiritual but as carnal. He said they were carnal. Was that "to" the Christian's in Ephesus or all Christisns, or was that specifically "to" the Corinthian Christians. I think we can agree that Paul wasn't saying all Christians or the Ephesian Christians were carnal, but only the Corinthians. So, his words were "to" the Corinthians. However, they are also "for" us. We can look at what they were doing and see why Paul called them carnal and understand that we shouldn't do likewise.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

I don't believe that Revelation is literally means a city will descend from the sky. I think it's figurative language. Peter spoke of the "restitution of all things". Isaiah prophesied of a Jerusalem in which there would be no more tears.

17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa. 65:17-25 NKJ)

Notice God said He creates Jerusalem as a rejoicing. Then He says, "The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her". This would indicate that weeping was heard in her. He also says that the voice of crying will be heard in her. Again, this would indicate that cry had been heard in her. It seems from this that this Jerusalem that God will create as a rejoicing has existed prior to this happening. Today the voice of weeping and crying is heard in Jerusalem.

Greeting brother,

I love that scripture Isa 65:17-25.

In this God created world, there is life and death, but there is also physical and spiritual.

There is the physical Israel and the spiritual Israel, the physical Jerusalem and the spiritual Jerusalem.

Could it be that God is referring to the physical and the spiritual? The spiritual Jerusalem is rejoicing, the physical Jerusalem is weeping and crying out. Jerusalem is away from God, it can only rejoice when it is made new in Christ.

This can also be said for the New Jerusalem, the spiritual Jerusalem in heaven, being prepared to come down onto the original making it complete, making it renewed and restored, when Christ returns and makes all things new.

There will be a New Heaven and New Earth, restored and made new, the spirit of God restored, put back, into all creation.

Romans 8:22-24 (NKJV)
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,
I agree with a lot of what you said here. I would submit though that the soul is not a part of man but rather the whole of man. Gen 2:7 says that when God breathed his breath or spirit into the man, the man became a living soul. To me this indicates that the two components, the body and the breath/spirit, when put together form something new. It would be the same as if we added one molecule of oxygen to two molecules of hydrogen. When these two are combined something new is formed.

I agree with the definitions of soul as, concretely, a breathing creature, and abstractly as vitality or life.

One other thing I would add as we do this is that, in the Hebrew and Greek, breath and spirit are the same word. The English word spirit is a figurative usage of the Greek word Pneuma and the Hebrew words, Neshamah and ruach. So, when we see the word spirit in our English Bible we should consider that this s a figure of speech. I've found it useful, to understanding the Bible, to avoid the word spirit and simply use the word wind or breath in it's place. The reason I say this is because the original readers saw the word wind and they interpreted it as such. It was up to the reader to figure out if it was a figure of speech or if it was literal. In our English Bibles the translators have taken it upon themselves to determine for us whether it is literal or figurative. That's fine as long as they're correct. I think in some places they're not. Our English word spirit has the connotation of a ghost. The readers of the original texts saw no such thing as the words they saw meant wind. Wind and spirit in English conjure up, pun intended, two completely different ideas.

Greetings

I worded the post as I did for a reason, I am sure you picked up on the reason, I separated the components of the God created body to Flesh, Spirit and Soul, due to them having been referred to in previous ways further back in the thread, and also for us to clearly define them as God intended, and not talk of the lost sinners being thrown into the lake of fire, should that be the case. As we know the flesh would burn in an instant, so was it the spirit/soul that would burn in the lake of fire? Should they be thrown there.

So the aim, though maybe not as clear as I had hoped was to consider the flesh, spirit, soul for believers and none believers and to consider based on what a person thinks at that time what happens to them, should we be discussing believers or none believers. There seemed to me to be some hairy fairy type thoughts, or they seemed that way because it wasn't clear what the writer may be referring to when stating the body would be thrown into the lake of fire.

Moving on, Jesus refers to the Spirit as like the wind.

John 3:8 (NKJV)
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Here as you state the word 'Spirit' is the word pneuma

Greek Strong's Number: 4151
Greek Word: πνεῦμα
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Pronunciation:pnyoo'-mah
Root: from <G4154>
Vine's Words: Breath, Breathe, Spirit, Wind

English Words used in KJV:
Spirit 111
(Holy) Ghost 89
Spirit (of God) 13
Spirit (of the Lord) 5
(My) Spirit 3
Spirit (of truth) 3
Spirit (of Christ) 2
human (spirit) 49
(evil) spirit 47
spirit (general) 26
spirit 8
(Jesus' own) spirit 6
(Jesus' own) ghost 2
miscellaneous translations 21
[Total Count: 385]

from <G4154> (pneo); a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figurative a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implicaiton) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, dæmon,
OR
(divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit :- ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

I think in order to really get a grasp on the Scriptures we need try to set a side our presuppositions and read the text for what it says.

Greeting brother,

That is what I was trying to define when I said, I try to step out of the picture and have an open mind, or as much as is humanly possible. I do not do this just because of what we already know affects our understanding, but also because with scripture we have no doubt read it many times before, this to is an issue, as our initial presuppositions affected our first reading, therefore when we read the passage again we are already thinking as we thought in the past, thus affecting the way we read now.

I think, I guess, I suppose, because of what I originally thought, or was it what I originally supposed?

 

[Sue D.]

The letters that were written to the seven churches in the 1st chapters of Revelation were written to specific churches with their plusses and minuses and Can be applied to churches Since then and Now. That each pastor should look at their own people and see what can be applied to Their church / if anything. Churches are full of People and people have problems that pastors and deacons deal with / help with and God's Word is to be our guide. Are churches willing to practice church discipline as needed? or allow 'stuff' to be done because the people are popular or whatever.

 

[Brother-Paul]

And Revelation Also full of Facts. God chose to give us that information in the form of a vision to John -- for a Reason.

Do you realize that maybe 20 yrs. ago -- if someone would have told us that people would use a cell phone to talk on -- 'we' would have thought they were crazy. Back Then in history, a phone was something that was dialed and either sat on a table to hung on a wall. It was connected by a chord. And Now -- a cell phone is Old news. There's now Instagram -- and Smart Phones, etc.

And remember even further back in history -- there were No T.V's or only black and white -- and computers weren't even heard of.

My point is that our world of technowledgy develops so fast -- that it's hard telling what's going to be common place in the future that now is 'symbolism' but will be as plain as day and real in the future.

Just stepping off topic a minute Sue if I may,

Do I remember when there were no televisions, I certainly do sister, families were families then, they did things together as families.

Then the television came into the home, like a newly invited friend. Very polite at first, no sex, no swearing, no attitudes, funny things were funny not taking the mickey out of others. But then this friend in the corner of the room became loud, rude, heartless, violent and more! How much the world has changed in the name of technology.

Then came the computer, ermm, we used to open Windows to let in fresh air, now we open Windows to do different things, not all good things. When I was younger chips used to be served with fish, now they are in computers! Rams used to be male goats now they are in computers. Virus' were colds and flu now they are in computers, a mouse was a small four legged animal now they are used with computers and a hard drive was an all terrain 4 wheel drive vehicle with no powered steering and probably needed to double the clutch to change gear.

How the world is changing, and so fast, but not all for good.

Sorry, back to topic

 

[Dave M]

Then the television came into the home, like a newly invited friend. Very polite at first, no sex, no swearing, no attitudes, funny things were funny not taking the mickey out of others. But then this friend in the corner of the room became loud, rude, heartless, violent and more! How much the world has changed in the name of technology.

man that is good right there !!!