Woman..

[Sue D.]

Yes, those are listed in Scripture -- but none Now. They ended Then.

 

[Brad Huber]

I suspect that there are some self-appointed apostles and others in 'ministeries' on TV that are not especially Biblically sound. We need to be cautious as to how we 'handle' Scripture.

I am sure you heard the phrase, "Dont throw the baby out with the bath water". Of course there are false apostles, have been, are now, and will be, just as there are false messiahs. We are to simply judge based on the fruit the tree produces.

 

[Brad Huber]

Yes, those are listed in Scripture -- but none Now. They ended Then.

Perhaps you are right, but since scripture doesnt say that, its a bit presumptuous.

 

[Sue D.]

There Is only One Messiah -- The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.

 

[B-A-C]

What is an apostle?

G652
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
Total KJV occurrences: 81

A little more digging, and I found out the following. This word has Roman origins. When the Romans were conquering the world, they would take over an area for a while, then they would move
on to the next country or territory to be conquered. Caesar and the Romans found out over a period of time.. that the people they had already conquered would simply revert back to their previous
beliefs and lifestyles they had before the Romans came. So the Romans starting leaving several people behind every time. These people were called "apostles". Simply ambassadors or messengers
for a specific cause or purpose. They were supposed to make sure people didn't revert back their old lifestyles and beliefs after the Roman's left. In a way it was the same with the original twelve. (well eleven + Paul)
One of the things they were supposed to do, was make sure the Christian church didn't just disband after Jesus left.

Some Bible even translate the word "apostle" as "messenger". Here is an example.. there are others.

Heb 3:1;
Hebrews 3:1
(AMPC) SO THEN, brethren, consecrated and set apart for God, who share in the heavenly calling, [thoughtfully and attentively] consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest Whom we confessed [as ours when we embraced the Christian faith].
(ASV) Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;
(CSB) Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.
(GNB) My Christian friends, who also have been called by God! Think of Jesus, whom God sent to be the High Priest of the faith we profess.
(GW) Brothers and sisters, you are holy partners in a heavenly calling. So look carefully at Jesus, the apostle and chief priest about whom we make our declaration of faith.
(HCSB) Therefore, holy brothers and companions in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession;
(ISV) Therefore, holy brothers, partners in a heavenly calling, keep your focus on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.
(KJV) Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
(KJVA) Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
(MKJV) Therefore, holy brothers, called to be partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,
(MSG) So, my dear Christian friends, companions in following this call to the heights, take a good hard look at Jesus. He's the centerpiece of everything we believe,
(NAS77) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.
(NASB) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
(NIrV) Holy brothers and sisters, God chose you to be his people. So keep thinking about Jesus. He is our apostle. He is our high priest. We believe in him.
(NIV) Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.
(NLT) And so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven, think carefully about this Jesus whom we declare to be God’s messenger and High Priest.
(RV) Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

The NLT says "messenger". The Good News Bible doesn't say apostle or messenger.

So it's true God specifically appointed the 12 "apostles" in the Gospels. After this it says God appointed Paul and Jesus. (yes Jesus is listed as an apostle, look at the verses above).
The Bible never specifically says God appointed Barnabas or Matthias, but they are generally accepted as apostles also.

But if the word apostle simply means "messenger" or "ambassador". Have there been no people God has appointed as messengers or ambassadors for Him in the last 2000 years?
In a way every evangelist, missionary, preacher and pastor is a messenger. Now whether they are all appointed by God or not could be up for debate.. but surely some are.

Why do we listen to pastors, and preachers if we don't think they were appointed by God?
Also if Jesus is called an apostle ( Heb 3:1; ) then can we really say there are no apostles today?

 

[Sue D.]

Because for one thing -- God gives us specific qualifications for pastors / elders and deacons in the local church.

Christ Jesus Is called an apostle in that passage. But, let's make no mistake -- He is / has always been -- the Son of God.

 

[PloughBoy]

Would the words in context of "holy scripture" makes a difference There are many kinds of Apostles and sent by many of organizations. But when we are referring to The "Gospel of Jesus Christ" and speak of The "12 Apostles of Jesus Christ' they have been identified. and "Apostle Paul" has been identified as sent by Jesus himself and the 12 Apostle sent by Jesus" Just because the church at "Rome" sent out "Apostles' Christ did not send them The church at Rome sent them. They are The Apostles of the Church of ROME. Like i have always said: we must pay attention to the "English syntax" like B-A-C partial definition for apostle:=messenger, he that is sent. Internet definitions are sometimes will not give you the in depth definition with verse for verse placement in the "original copied text" hard copy of "ISBE" must likely will give you about 2 to 3 pages of the definition of The word "APOSTLE". then when you look the verse up, first, and then the original greek work in that particular verse then you hunt that greek word down by Lexicon and the explanation. IF you are going to to do a research on a biblical word, do a proper research on it. Believe me i know and I know how to do one. and internet paste and copy and cut, is not going to get it. it doesn't work. You cannot do a proper research on biblical words with the internet unless you know how to speak greek. Even in hard book search, you have to know the Greek Alphabet, and for the OT you have to know the Hebrew Alphabet to do Hebrew word search. i know i had a years study how to interpret Holy scripture and how to research original text words. For the books of research was design that way for all biblical students through out the world , base on the KJV, AS, RSV, YOUNGS analytical, Strongs Concise, Englishman Greek, Englishmen Hebrew Concordances, Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon , Thayer english greek Lexicons, and had "Vines New testament greek words. tagging along. in times like these if you do not have to do a proper research. Just go to a web sight that has many of translations and paraphrases. that are listed. and you compare them to get the best flavor of the intended thought of the text. and leave that internet greek and hebrews definitions alone!

Satan is always busy, making you think you have done something by a quick fix definition of a portion of the text or word. Don't waste your time, Go to multiple translations list and know the difference between a "paraphrase "and a "word for word translation" and a "translation' and a very "close to word for word translation "of the original text"! God has made it easy for you. i still think, a serious student of the Bible still needs a Hard copy of "ISBE"! you can lead a horse to water but i know you can not make him drink. i have had 3 horses.

No criticizing of your research, but a comment on word research to get the flavor of the intended thought of Holy Scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

@PloughBoy -- you seem to have a talent for making studying Scripture sound excruciatingly complicated -- in order to get the real, deep , true meanings of words. It doesn't need to be all that complicated. Plain, ole fashioned reading your Bible works very well. If you Want to spend those hours doing that research, that's your choice, obviously. And ya really don't have to be able to read Greek/ Hebrew / Armaic in order gain the understanding necessary. Actually all of that is on Internet. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with Google. I do have my own copies of several study books -- I don't use them that often. Trust your 4th of July has been good.

 

[PloughBoy]

"Google, Google

 

[Sue D.]

You DO realize that most all the resources you list Are available on-line.

 

[PloughBoy]

I don't have to use them anymore, those books have been collecting dust in my library for years, I am familiar with the added words in the bible for the missing text of scripture the added verses the added transliterated words the added paragraphs and the substitutional words, just by reading it and knowing, but i don't think about it ,,,just when someone thinks about it or mention it. The problem texts and why they are called problem text. But somehow God shows you the things He wants to show you in his word. That is why it is God's Word. it is the avenue how he communicate with his children, both small and great per se. i don't use those tools any more. Earlier years, somehow i thought i would just read all of the word every bit of it read out loud unto yourself get it in you hear it as well. Then it is in you. like a computer program, if you do not put the data in it, you cannot get the data out of it. the "Central Processing unit" takes care of the rest. you put every word in the written word in you, The holy Spirit in time of need will bring it into your remembrance. for it acts also like a "central Processing unit" it only brings out, is what you put in it. so all of those words in the lexicons, vines, ASV, AS, RSV, KJV, NIV, and "ISBE" are in my spirit and in my brain, and I would pray every time i would ask that God would bless those words and that His blesseth spirit would bring it back to my remembrance in time of need. wow my God i cannot imagine how many times i have said those prayers in over 40 years. on a average of maybe of 35 or 40 times a week in over 40 years. i never paid attention to that, that would be the prayer when i finish reading, But i would also pray before i begin every time sometimes 5 times a day, begin prayer and ending prayer. "beginning pray would be: oh heavenly father forgive me of all my sins and may thy blesseth spirit guide me into thy truth and righteousness as i read from holy and divine word." I start to pray that prayer with my first brand new Scofield study system or reference study bible. i still have about 4 copyright 1967 and couple of 1999 copyright. 1 copyright of the 1967 addition is still like new. i saw one on E-bay asking bid over $900.00. that is crazy. copyright 1967. i figure you would like that Sue!

 

[Sue D.]

You are one who is quick to judge my relationship with the Father. I have no patience for someone who attempts to imply one is not a Christian because their understanding of scripture does not comport with the understanding of their judge /accuser.

I'll make two points and then we may conclude our exchange. Women are called by God to preach. The idea that women are to remain silent in the church is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, and when taken as women are to remain mute in the house of our Father, is no better an edict that that which is appointed Muslim women in their mosques. When the truth is, Paul was teaching women are not to openly seek clarity concerning something being taught in the church. That's why the verses following the one taken so far out of context is ignored. Because it makes clear what Paul was saying. The woman is to wait until she may inquire of her husband or what we today call pastor, for further understanding.
There are women apostles in the scriptures and there are women pastors today.

Lastly, the reality is, I acknowledge the truth of God and his word. That there is no division among the faithful. There is no male nor female. We are all one in Christ. Galatians 3:28.

Born again believers are called to share the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen.

Preaching is a special calling. And there Are guidelines given For elders / bishops / deacons and these are in local churches. Titus 1 is one of the passages about qualifications -- vs 6 If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination, etc. The very first part -- "a man" is specified and have a wife and children. That disqualifies women as preachers.

1 Timothy 3 is the other passage with qualifications listed. Being blameless, the Husband of one wife, etc.. That also specifies a man (husband).

 

[Trevor]

Born again believers are called to share the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen.

Preaching is a special calling. And there Are guidelines given For elders / bishops / deacons and these are in local churches. Titus 1 is one of the passages about qualifications -- vs 6 If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination, etc. The very first part -- "a man" is specified and have a wife and children. That disqualifies women as preachers.

1 Timothy 3 is the other passage with qualifications listed. Being blameless, the Husband of one wife, etc.. That also specifies a man (husband).

In our family, when the phone rings, it is mostly Helen that is being sought. She runs our family, She has control of our money (that way the bills get paid) and she runs the house. If I make a decision, it is carried out because I am the authority in our family. In our fellowship, if the Spirit moves one of our women, then, of course, he is able to speak to us through our women. We willingly accept the positions the Lord has allotted to us and when love permeates our community, we all have dignity.

 

[Sue D.]

@Trevor -- your bio info says you're from Alston -- where is that? You said "in our fellowship" referring to a church group - what church group are you affiliated with. The Lord speaks to a person, well, the Holy Spirit works through a variety of circumstances to 'speak' to us. But there needs to be a leader in every kind of group. And when there's a mixed group -- both men and women -- there needs to be male leadership when coming together to worship God. You also said, IF the Spirit moves one of the women, then He speaks through that woman. Are you referring to a woman 'giving a word of wisdom' for the rest of the people? Okay -- that's one of the spiritual gifts for the edifying of the group. But the actual leader Of that group -- Biblically -- needs to be a man.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@PloughBoy -- you seem to have a talent for making studying Scripture sound excruciatingly complicated -- in order to get the real, deep , true meanings of words. It doesn't need to be all that complicated. Plain, ole fashioned reading your Bible works very well. If you Want to spend those hours doing that research, that's your choice, obviously. And ya really don't have to be able to read Greek/ Hebrew / Armaic in order gain the understanding necessary. Actually all of that is on Internet. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with Google. I do have my own copies of several study books -- I don't use them that often. Trust your 4th of July has been good.

Hi Sue

I do have to agree with PloughBoy regarding searching the true meaning of words, the order he stated is correct.

- look the verse up, first
- then the original greek word in that particular verse
- then you hunt that greek word down by Lexicon and the explanation.

Then go as deep as you wish to follow the true meaning, the above should be minimum, use of the additional resources takes you deeper.

But sometimes you have to be careful, there may be several words need looking up to get the correct understanding.

Here is an EXAMPLE I was looking into yesterday (Nothing to do with woman sorry)

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) - The verse with Strong's Numbers
And the LORD <H3068> God <H430> formed <H3335> man <H120> of the dust <H6083> of <H4480> the ground, <H170> and breathed <H5301> into his nostrils <H639> the breath <H5397> of life <H2416>; and man <H120> became<H1961> a living <H2416> soul. <H5315>

Each word or set of words relating to the Hebrew used and translated, plus in Hebrew text

And the LORD <H3068> Yhwy ‏יהוה‎

God <H430> ʾelōhîm ‏אֱלֹהִים‎

formed <H3335> yāṣar ‏יָצַר‎
man <H120> ʾādām אָדָם‎

of the dust <H6083> ʿāpār ‏עָפָר‎

of <H4480> minnî ‏מִנִּי‎

the ground, <H170> ʾadāmâ ‏אֲדָמָה‎

and breathed <H5301> nāpaḥ ‏נָפַח‎

into his nostrils <H639> ʾap אַף

the breath <H5397> neshāmâ ‏נְשָׁמָה‎

of life <H2416>; ḥay חַי

and man <H120> ʾādām ‏אָדָם‎

became<H1961> hāyâ ‏הָיָה‎

a living <H2416> ḥay ‏חַי‎

soul. <H5315> nepesh ‏נֶפֶשׁ‎

‏נֶפֶשׁ‎ ‏חַי‎ ‏הָיָה‎ ‏אָדָם‎ חַי ‏נְשָׁמָה‎ אַף ‏נָפַח‎ ‏אֲדָמָה‎ ‏מִנִּי‎ ‏עָפָר‎ אָדָם‎ ‏יָצַר‎ ‏אֱלֹהִים‎ ‏יהוה‎ (Read right to left)
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Because for one thing -- God gives us specific qualifications for pastors / elders and deacons in the local church.

Christ Jesus Is called an apostle in that passage. But, let's make no mistake -- He is / has always been -- the Son of God.

But every saved soul is a minister of God's Grace Sue.

We are priests, Jesus is our great high priest.

Pastors, vicars ministers of all titles prefer us to think you must learn from them, and we do that is true, but we must always check we have been taught correctly. When you talk of qualifications you are referring to a worldly certificate from Bible college, this does not mean they are born again and have received the Holy Spirit, it just says they have studied and got a certificate for doing so.

Sadly there are many 'qualified pastors' who are not born again from above.

 

[Trevor]

@Trevor -- your bio info says you're from Alston -- where is that? You said "in our fellowship" referring to a church group - what church group are you affiliated with. The Lord speaks to a person, well, the Holy Spirit works through a variety of circumstances to 'speak' to us. But there needs to be a leader in every kind of group. And when there's a mixed group -- both men and women -- there needs to be male leadership when coming together to worship God. You also said, IF the Spirit moves one of the women, then He speaks through that woman. Are you referring to a woman 'giving a word of wisdom' for the rest of the people? Okay -- that's one of the spiritual gifts for the edifying of the group. But the actual leader Of that group -- Biblically -- needs to be a man.

Alston, Sue, is in the 'high pennines' in Cumbria. If one drives north up the M6 till they get to Penrith, to the left is the mountains of the Lake District and to the right is the pennines, between the two is the Eden Valley. Alston is the highest market town in England 11 hundred feet above sea level. Our fellowship, originaly was a house fellowship numbering around 20 people. However, after several years, the Lord, in his wisdom decided to split it and so our family was all that was left and that is how it has remained since the early nineties. We know that this is how the Lord will have it as we still move in the Spirit. The story of the split is a painful one, that took me five years to get over, so I won't elaborate. It was the affiliation with another church that caused the split. Our family and our fellowship, I lead, as I am the authority in both. Helen, the girls and I often discuss our faith and the meaning of scripture around our kitchen table, and in our discussions the Spirit often move us, directing our understandings, it's hard to distinguish the interactions between fellowship in our daily lives and our fellowship on the Sabath, the Lord is involved in every aspect of our lives. We still interact with the local church members and those who used to fellowship with us, they occasionaly invite me to sing in their meetings. All the Christians in our small community are close.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings Trevor

You are worshipping from on high my friend.

If I am right you are in the Lake District, not the Yorkshire Dales, areas of outstanding beauty brother.

I have never been to Alston, but loved the Lake District, east and west and the passes between, beautiful countryside. I always avoided Windermere and Bowness, to commercialised, to many tourists, all nationalities, I like the peace and quiet areas, peace and quiet from the road as I cannot get a wheelchair to the real beauty spots. I loved driving through, especially in spring and autumn, but it is to far away now. Memories don't fade though.

Bless you, Helen and all your household, Bless the ministry you are all part of.

 

[Sue D.]

Sounds like the two of you are from England -- a fairly different culture that here in America.

 

[Sue D.]

But every saved soul is a minister of God's Grace Sue.

We are priests, Jesus is our great high priest.

Pastors, vicars ministers of all titles prefer us to think you must learn from them, and we do that is true, but we must always check we have been taught correctly. When you talk of qualifications you are referring to a worldly certificate from Bible college, this does not mean they are born again and have received the Holy Spirit, it just says they have studied and got a certificate for doing so.

Sadly there are many 'qualified pastors' who are not born again from above.

I was sharing the passages that they come from 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:5-9 -- and yes, there Are those who try to teach false doctrine. A pastor Should encourage his congregation to check out everything he is sharing. Pastors usually have an outline of the passage so a person can follow along in their own Bible.

My brother -in-law and late husband both went to accredited Bible colleges and seminary. And, yes, they earned their M.A. in theology. They are not 'worldly' certificates. When a person is born-again, they automatically have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. I'm very familiar with Bible-college level and seminary-level Bible education. I also grew up under a very good Bible teacher/ preacher. And I've also had a couple years of Bible college. My late husband and I were pastor / wife for about 5 yrs. in northern Minnesota. many years ago -- but we / I gained a lot of experience / knowledge in the process Of.

Obviously you have a low opinion of Bible colleges / seminaries. But you do seem to be big into using the various Bible study aides, At least you seem to agree with PloughBoy and his studying. Feel free to dig as deeply as you want to. I get a lot out of 'surface' study.