What If I'm Born Gay?

[Christ4Ever]

I think we're both agreed that the Inquisition, resulted in the torture and death, often by burning of thousands of its victims, i never claimed that "millions died", just that the Hate and intolerance shown by so called "Christians" has led to mass persecution and suffering and that the dangers of this Hate and Intolerance, particularly as they relate to homosexuality, are just as dangerous now as they were then,..... and whatever the supposed provocation, there are no justifications for the wanton killing and destruction unleashed on so called "pagans", be they Jews, Muslims or Christians of different beliefs that the Crusades unleashed, or are you trying to justify it with your "ISIS type islam extremism that had to be dealt with", you really need to be aware of the evil forces you are playing with here, read an account of the taking of Jerusalem in the first Crusade, of the slaughter that took place, how can you reconcile that with your professed belief in Christ,...... and where does Christ say that "Christians have a right of self defence", wheres the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies", i've always believed that Christ is a Pacifist, that he understands once we hit back, once we deem our cause so righteous it can justify violence, then we unleash the demons in our souls that threaten to engulf us in Hate and retribution, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Dresden and other German cities come to mind,...... you really do need to do a little more research, heres what i was referring to, "
The European wars of religion were a series of religious wars waged in Europe in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century.[1][2] The wars were fought after the Protestant Reformation's beginning in 1517, which disrupted the religious and political order in the Catholic countries of Europe. However, religion was not the only cause of the wars, which also included revolts, territorial ambitions, and Great Power conflicts. For example, by the end of the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), Catholic France was allied with the Protestant forces against the Catholic Habsburg monarchy.[3] The wars were largely ended by the Peace of Westphalia (1648), establishing a new political order that is now known as Westphalian sovereignty. However, religion-based armed conflict persisted in Europe, such as the Wars of the Three Kingdoms(1639–1651) on the British Isles and the Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) and Toggenburg War (1712) in the Western Alps, until the 1710s.[2]
The conflicts began with the minor Knights' Revolt (1522), followed by the larger German Peasants' War (1524–1525) in the Holy Roman Empire. Warfare intensified after the Catholic Church began the Counter-Reformation in 1545 against the growth of Protestantism. The conflicts culminated in the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), which devastated Germany and killed one-third of its population.[2] The Peace of Westphalia (1648) put an end to the war by recognising three separate Christian traditions in the Holy Roman Empire: Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism.[4][5] Although many European leaders were "sickened" by the bloodshed by 1648,[6] religious wars continued to be waged in the post-Westphalian period until the 1710s,[2] and collective memory of the wars lasted even longer." the wars in Europe between Protestant and Catholic that raged through the 16th - 18th centuries, Christians massacring and slaughtering other Christians to decide whose God is the one true God,....... we are not talking of rejecting Homosexuality, we are talking of Christian dominated societies persecuting, torturing and in some cases murdering Homosexuals, whatever your views on homosexuality, hate and Intolerance of the sinner should have no place in your Christian faith, thats the point i was making,...... and how may i ask are the Gay Community treating you unfairly, and even if they were, what as Christians should be our response, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you and pray for those that persecute you, seems to me that "Righteous Indignation" should have no place in aChristians response to sin, but then perhaps you view Christs commandments to love your neighbour as yourself differently,....... are you seriously saying that you believe the best way God could find to re-unite Jews in israel was to initiate the Holocaust, and the Holocaust had nothing to do with a "Wicked person demonising those that had Wealth and in a minority", it had everything to do with a Christian dialogue that had persisted in Europe for centuries of anti-semitism and that culminated in the bringing to power of Hitler and the unleashing of the Hate and Intolerance that led to the Murder of millions of innocent men, women and children, if you want references for this i will give them, but it seems to me that in some way you are attempting to justify the horrific abuses and slaughter that have taken place in the name of Christianity, and as such are playing with fire, as that same evil is alive and strong today, inciting Hate and Intolerance particularly as i say in some sections of the "Church" at homosexuals, as such your arguments are dangerous and in my opinion theologically bankrupt.

Hello Rad,
Thanks for sharing the history. Enjoyed it thoroughly!

Even though it was a start to what follows and its effects are felt even to this day. I would make one change and that would be to exclude the mentioning of the Crusades. Popish or Roman Catholicism along with the war between the Turks and the Byzantine Empire which they supported was the foundation for the initial Crusade. How they were manned, was the misuse of Christianity at its very core. Atonement & Indulgences were propagated by Pope Urban II as the method for this. This is what happens when the Word of God is constrained to only a select group. Corruption, greed, lies, and what I believe is the false belief of Salvation by Works allowed for such conditions as evidenced in the Crusades to thrive.

That is why the Word of God is clear that the learning of His word is necessary to show oneself approved. In fact this part from Timothy goes well with the subject at hand in this thread if followed to the end. (2 Timothy 2:14-26)

Again thanks for sharing the history Brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Rad]

Hello Rad,
Thanks for sharing the history. Enjoyed it thoroughly!

Even though it was a start to what follows and its effects are felt even to this day. I would make one change and that would be to exclude the mentioning of the Crusades. Popish or Roman Catholicism along with the war between the Turks and the Byzantine Empire which they supported was the foundation for the initial Crusade. How they were manned, was the misuse of Christianity at its very core. Atonement & Indulgences were propagated by Pope Urban II as the method for this. This is what happens when the Word of God is constrained to only a select group. Corruption, greed, lies, and what I believe is the false belief of Salvation by Works allowed for such conditions as evidenced in the Crusades to thrive.

That is why the Word of God is clear that the learning of His word is necessary to show oneself approved. In fact this part from Timothy goes well with the subject at hand in this thread if followed to the end. (2 Timothy 2:14-26)

Again thanks for sharing the history Brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Hi Nick, many thanks for your kind words , i included the Crusades as i see it as yet another prime example of the way that "Christians" have corrupted and perverted the message of Christ throughout the centuries to suit their own often hate filled, intolerant and greed driven agenda, my original post in this thread was centred on how i struggle with the same Hate and Intolerance that is shown towards Homosexuals by some who identify themselves as Christians and by looking through our History just where that can lead,....... i've read today that here in the UK reported attacks on Transgender people have risen by over 80% in the last year, and in the US there have been moves by the Trump administration to ban such people from the military, together with proposals to allow the denial of services , including medical treatment to gay people on the basis of "religious Freedom", and in many states in the US its still legal to fire someone from their job simply on the basis of their sexuality, ....... now whilst not all these attacks are the result of actions by Christians, some are, and the marginalisation and vilification of any section of society by those called on to Love their Neighbour as themselves, is not only against Christs teachings, but extremely dangerous and can lead to some of the worst excesses known to history,....... we might differ on the issue of Salvation by works, but i guess thats a whole new thread my friend!!

 

[Rad]

Rad, don't just type ''Christian wars'' or ''Catholic persecution'' in Google. You must read and discern each one.

The Catholic church ruled. It was in power. It had wars to hold onto power. There is nothing Christian about holding onto power as they did. Christianity and government were one. I do believe one is ''insanely naive'' if they interpret wars fought to hold onto power as incriminating to the religion. It is like saying Iran going to war with America is due to Islam. We can say Iran going to war with Israel is due to 50% to Islam and 50% to land they feel was taken from Palestinians. The Catholic church did not kill rebel armies in the 'peasant war' because they believed they were GLBT. They posed a threat to their ''''reign of power'''. Martin Luther was a threat, not because His views inspired '''more sinful acts''. He was a threat because he inspired rebellion to a '''government in power'''.

When dissecting Catholicism you have to try and separate the two. The actual death toll for the '''inquisition'' and not the '''holding on to power / quelling rebellions'' is estimated at just over 3000 over 400 years. Here is an article on the Spanish inquisition where it is estimated at 1250 deaths Historians say Inquisition wasn't that bad. Also, please do a study on the Spanish inquisition. It will open your eyes to how much facts become fiction. History may not intentionally get things wrong, but people have a tendency to blur and group atrocities committed.

I isolate Oliver Cromwell's murders as this was a unique occasion in my view. It was not the typical ''Catholics quelling rebellion and holding onto power''. It was a war waged by protestants against Catholics for ''revenge''.

Wars and conflict are rarely about just one issue, theres nearly always a number of factors involved, in the "Religious Wars" of the 16th -18th centuries in Europe there was obviously factors other than religion at play, but Religion was a factor, and the "Christian" church used its position of Influence and power to promote Hate, Intolerance and violence, and the Suffering and destruction that ensued ,....... the same with the inquisition and the Crusades, Religion was used in the promotion of both and again led to Destruction and suffering on a vast scale,....... without going into the detailed history, which is beyond the scope of this thread, the point i'm making can probably best be summed up in the quote by Pascal " men never do Evil so completely and Cheerfully as when they do it from a Religious Conviction", so beware of "Righteous Indignation" , for it can so easily evolve into "Righteous anger", and from that point anything, as we can see from history, is possible.

 

[KingJ]

there are no justifications for the wanton killing and destruction unleashed on so called "pagans", be they Jews,

Yes there are. Pagans were only destroyed when God saw their sin was full measure Gen 15:16, Gen 18:20. We all need to try and ''grasp'' what sin full measure is. It is not annihilating very wicked people. It is not defending yourself against very wicked people. It is being wicked. An enemy of God. An enemy of what is right. One sold out to a hatred of what is good.

Let's consider the Amalekites as an example. Let's say you were the leader of the Amalekites. You see the Hebrews in Egyptian slavery for 400 years. You then hear of how God miraculously helped them escape Egypt. How He then kept them in the wilderness for 40 years because even though they were chosen, they were still guilty of degrees of wickedness that were unacceptable to God. Now when they finally leave the wilderness and arrive at your doorstep. They only want safe passage past your land. They will not be a nuisance. Then, when they least expect it, you attack them with your armies. HOW WICKED IS THAT? They knew these were God fearing people. Good people that would stone each other to death for grievous sins. That have suffered immensely in the past. These people would be such good neighbors. Yet you attack them. Evil personified. Utter hatred for good people and God.

It is on par with seeing Mother Theresa walk by your house and you picking up stones to throw at her.

or are you trying to justify it with your "ISIS type islam extremism that had to be dealt with",

ISIS extremism always has to be dealt with.

you really need to be aware of the evil forces you are playing with here, read an account of the taking of Jerusalem in the first Crusade, of the slaughter that took place, how can you reconcile that with your professed belief in Christ,.

The crusades were not solely for the ''taking of Jerusalem''. This was an ''added bonus''. Territory, minerals, wealth, helping allies for territory, minerals and wealth. These are the reasons nations fight wars. There was a ''people crusade'' whose only focus was to retake Jerusalem.

i've always believed that Christ is a Pacifist, that he understands once we hit back, once we deem our cause so righteous it can justify violence, then we unleash the demons in our souls that threaten to engulf us in Hate and retribution, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Dresden and other German cities come to mind,...... you really do need to do a little more research

God does not change Num 23:19. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We just fail at understanding Him.

God and Jesus will bend over backwards for the person that repents sincerely of their sins Psalm 51:17. Turn left cheek. Forgive. Welcome into heaven. But to those that don't. Those that are sold out to sin. Swift destruction. Did Jesus command angels to stop Judas from killing himself? Did Jesus speak with sweetness to Pharisees? When Jesus returns, does he play tiddly winks with the devil and the wicked on earth?

We unleash ''inner demons in our souls'' when we do wicked things. Swift and decisive destruction of the wicked is NOT wicked. Not dealing with those sold out to wickedness is wicked. Torture is wicked. Not repenting of sins but continuing in them, is wicked.

 

[Sue D.]

King J -- we do wicked things because we are born with the propensity For doing wicked things. We are Not born with the desire For good things.
And we learn more and more About God as we read His Word and talk with Him in prayer.

 

[KingJ]

King J -- we do wicked things because we are born with the propensity For doing wicked things. We are Not born with the desire For good things.
And we learn more and more About God as we read His Word and talk with Him in prayer.

Please provide scripture. I disagree. Without a proper explanation or scripture I am currently assuming you would send babies and children to hell. As we '''are born'' to do wicked things.

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- a person needs to be able to understand right from wrong and that They Personally have committed a sin of some kind. ie was mean to their brother or sister -- didn't obey Mom or Dad.

I do not send Anyone to heaven Or hell.

The book of Romans -- chapter 3 vs 19 - 26 especially 23. and backing up to chapter 2: 10 - 18 vs 23 says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

And back in Genesis 3:1-13 or so -- Eve and then Adam followed satans' deceptive words instead of obeying God. They were told to not even touch the tree or fruit of the tree of the knowledge of both good and Evil. But they did Anyway.
Their eyes were opened immediately. First thing they saw was their nakedness and were embarrassed by it. As soon as they knew it, their innocence was Gone. And the Propensity for sinning was 'born'.

So - now you have the Scripture and explanation there of.

As a baby grows up, they Do show signs of a sinful nature. that's why children -- at a very young age -- need to be Taught to share and play nicely. And that biting / hitting/ taking toys from another child is Not nice. Their entire world is centered on 'me' -- their own personal survival.

 

[Rad]

Yes there are. Pagans were only destroyed when God saw their sin was full measure Gen 15:16, Gen 18:20. We all need to try and ''grasp'' what sin full measure is. It is not annihilating very wicked people. It is not defending yourself against very wicked people. It is being wicked. An enemy of God. An enemy of what is right. One sold out to a hatred of what is good.

Let's consider the Amalekites as an example. Let's say you were the leader of the Amalekites. You see the Hebrews in Egyptian slavery for 400 years. You then hear of how God miraculously helped them escape Egypt. How He then kept them in the wilderness for 40 years because even though they were chosen, they were still guilty of degrees of wickedness that were unacceptable to God. Now when they finally leave the wilderness and arrive at your doorstep. They only want safe passage past your land. They will not be a nuisance. Then, when they least expect it, you attack them with your armies. HOW WICKED IS THAT? They knew these were God fearing people. Good people that would stone each other to death for grievous sins. That have suffered immensely in the past. These people would be such good neighbors. Yet you attack them. Evil personified. Utter hatred for good people and God.

It is on par with seeing Mother Theresa walk by your house and you picking up stones to throw at her.

ISIS extremism always has to be dealt with.

The crusades were not solely for the ''taking of Jerusalem''. This was an ''added bonus''. Territory, minerals, wealth, helping allies for territory, minerals and wealth. These are the reasons nations fight wars. There was a ''people crusade'' whose only focus was to retake Jerusalem.

God does not change Num 23:19. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We just fail at understanding Him.

God and Jesus will bend over backwards for the person that repents sincerely of their sins Psalm 51:17. Turn left cheek. Forgive. Welcome into heaven. But to those that don't. Those that are sold out to sin. Swift destruction. Did Jesus command angels to stop Judas from killing himself? Did Jesus speak with sweetness to Pharisees? When Jesus returns, does he play tiddly winks with the devil and the wicked on earth?

We unleash ''inner demons in our souls'' when we do wicked things. Swift and decisive destruction of the wicked is NOT wicked. Not dealing with those sold out to wickedness is wicked. Torture is wicked. Not repenting of sins but continuing in them, is wicked.

I fear we are getting widely off thread, but i think the important point i would make is that you are not God, you are not Christ, you are , like all of us, a miserable sinner, and it seems to me that it is not up to you to decide who is worthy and who isn't, who deserves to live and who doesn't, who is worthy of Gods mercy and who isn't, be they Homosexual, member of ISIS, murderer, Pedophile or whatever, ........ for when you take that role upon yourself, or justify it for others, then you stand to repeat the many horrors that so called "Christians" have perpetrated over the centuries, who believe that their "Righteous Indignation", Righteous anger and hatred of sin, and sinners, gives them the right to carry out Gods righteous judgement on this Earth,....... i suggest you read and try to understand the teachings of Christ in Matthew 5 vs 38-48, and also the meaning behind John 8 vs 1-11, while we can judge the sin, we cannot judge the sinner, or pass sentence on them, that is Gods jurisdiction, ........ i find your thinking both dangerous and also depressing, it is dangerous in the demons it could unleash, it is depressing that someone who obviously has a deep faith and knowledge of the letter of Christs teachings has failed to understand the overriding message of Mercy, Love and Compassion that underpins it,..... perhaps i have misunderstood your position, i truly hope so, but there are many within the "Church" that aspire to these views, and its easy to see why many Gay people regard Christianity with both fear and Hostility .

 

[KingJ]

you are not Christ, you are , like all of us, a miserable sinner,

Paul says I am a new creation 2 Cor 5:17. I am a sinner still, correct. Miserable, no. Stop this view of sin = sin. There is a difference between an unrepentant sinner and a repentant sinner. A WORLD of difference. Then there is a difference between a mortal sinner, a venial sinner, a good person and a Christian.

and it seems to me that it is not up to you to decide who is worthy and who isn't,

Why would you say that? The bible is rather crystal clear on who is worthy and why. Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17, Rev 3:20, James 1:27, James 4:8, Rom 12:9.

who deserves to live and who doesn't,

Of course that is not up to me. Only God judges hearts and minds and depths of intent that we can't Jer 17:9-11. But we can....'''learn''' from past judgments by Him ...surely??? In every instance in the OT where His wrath came upon people resulting in their immediate death we see a commonality among the wicked, namely unrepentant and in mortal sins.

who is worthy of Gods mercy and who isn't, be they Homosexual,

Everyone alive is worthy, that is why they are not dead and in Hades. Jesus died for everyone John 3:16. God made us all His friends when He lay His life down John 15:13.

member of ISIS, murderer, Pedophile or whatever,

I like how you exclude....someone who said a few curse words (venial sinner) from the mortal sinners you mentioned. Then end with ''whatever''. A Christian is supposed to discern sin and punishments better then the unsaved according to Paul in 1 Cor 6:1-9. Now the unsaved can grasp the need to punish a murderer with 25 years in prison. The unsaved can grasp the need to punish a ''terrible thief'' who stole a piece of candy from a candy store with a $1 fine. Yet we ''Christians'' have even worse discernment. Like literally on the other end of the spectrum. Just insanely hilarious. Whenever I hear someone espouse sin=sin ''whatever'', I just know that person is deceived or about to justify their sin to me.

for when you take that role upon yourself, or justify it for others, then you stand to repeat the many horrors that so called "Christians" have perpetrated over the centuries,

The reformation wars were not hatred toward sinners. There are not many Christian horrors toward people in sin. You have such a propaganda / contrived view of Christian history. The only space you are correct in is one where non-Christians or fake Christians (everyone wants to be a Christian) do a random act of violence. Hitler / Germans in WW2 for example killed many homosexuals. For this reason, we must not and we do not promote hate for sinners. This does not equate to us promoting approval of sin. We can and should still be able to HATE the sin. Preach against the sin. As God hates the sin. God does not change. False teachers would preach hatred for sinners or preach only a lob-sided message of intolerance for those in sin as opposed to a balanced message. You want a lob-sided message too with all your '''Jesus is a pacifist, mercy, love''. God hates false teaching. It is a mortal sin for which their are many warnings in scripture.

i suggest you read and try to understand the teachings of Christ in Matthew 5 vs 38-48,

I love my enemy. I do turn the left cheek. God does this. He is our role model. Yet I also grasp those scriptures where God deals with the wicked. God does not do nothing about the wicked who hurt and oppress the innocent. Nor should we. Your message is a half truth. Teaching half truths when knowing the full truth is false teaching.

and also the meaning behind John 8 vs 1-11, while we can judge the sin,

I fully grasp this passage. Note, Jesus never said what they were doing was wrong. God ordained death by stoning for adultery. God is Jesus. God does not change Num 23:19. You have cherry picked those verses out of much needed context. Jesus says in vs 11, ''go and sin no more''. What do you think would happen to her if she continued sinning? If she disobeyed Jesus?

What we have to understand is that Jesus saw in the adulterer a heart that was in a mortal sin but not yet sold out to the mortal sin. IE He saw hope. A lot like Psalm 51:17 was available in the OT to every mortal sinner that was stoned to death. We don't have to believe every mortal sinner stoned to death will be in hell as a result. The dangerous space is to be in sin unrepentant and a sin that points to a love of sin. IE a mortal sin. Jesus said we know someone by their fruits. If you had to leave your child with a sinner, which of these three sinners would you choose to leave them with? 1. A pedophile 2. a murderer 3. a person who thought about stealing candy from the candy store.

we cannot judge the sinner,

Nonsense. Paul says in 1 Cor 6:3 that we will judge angels. Paul says in 1 Cor 11:31 that we are able to judge ourselves at a level that would result in God not needing to judge us. 1 Cor 2:15 says we judge all things. The ''do not judge'' passage in I think Matt 7 has been discussed in depth on this site. It is not a ''do not judge''... fullstop statement.

or pass sentence on them, that is Gods jurisdiction,

Again, nonsense. We sentence a murderer to 25 years in prison, do you disagree with that? The sentence we don't pass is whether or not they are sold out to sin and now hell bound. Only God knows that. Only God judges heart and mind at that depth of intent Jer 17:9-11.

i find your thinking both dangerous and also depressing,

That is rather rude.

it is dangerous in the demons it could unleash,

What specifically? Maybe quote a line from me. That is a rather insulting statement / bold accusation to make.

it is depressing that someone who obviously has a deep faith and knowledge of the letter of Christs teachings has failed to understand the overriding message of Mercy, Love and Compassion that underpins it,.

You are not grasping the message of grace and love. God is love. God gives grace. God is merciful. God is compassionate. But there is a point of no return. A point where God's love can no longer reach us because WE have made our intentions to HATE Him known. We hate God by loving what He hates. He HATES sin. I feel you are not grasping Prov 27:6. Kisses and standing by merely watching those in sin fall deeper, not wanting to ''offend them'' is NOT helping them.

perhaps i have misunderstood your position, i truly hope so, but there are many within the "Church" that aspire to these views, and its easy to see why many Gay people regard Christianity with both fear and Hostility .

Well there is more to it. Christians are taught once a week, sometimes 4 times a week to ''turn the left cheek, love our enemies, visit those in prison and comfort them''. They are NEVER taught to hate the sinner and make plans to hurt them.

There is uneasiness between GLBT and Christians because GLBT groups are impressing their way of life on us who want nothing to do with it. A baby girl can change her sex to male or some pro-noun. We who hate homosexuality are forced to ordain gay marriages in our church. Forced to bake cakes for gay marriages. We are losing our rights to hate this and love that. The first amendment is dying. We are moving toward a leftist socialism. I am more concerned for good Christians under a far left ruler-ship compared to GLBT's under the far right.

 

[KingJ]

The book of Romans -- chapter 3 vs 19 - 26 especially 23. and backing up to chapter 2: 10 - 18 vs 23 says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Wages of sin is death. Not eternal lake of fire. Adam and Eve were cast to....earth. Not Hades. Not the lake of fire.

Those sold out to wickedness, will go to the eternal lake of fire. In the OT the sinners who repented went to Abraham's bosom. A place in ''death''. But a nice place in ''death''.

The gift of God, salvation is given to all. But only those who repent lay hold of it. IE Those in Abraham's bosom, did not need to be separated any longer. They could lay hold of God's gift of reconciliation with Him. Eternal life. Likewise us now, who repent.

And back in Genesis 3:1-13 or so -- Eve and then Adam followed satans' deceptive words instead of obeying God. They were told to not even touch the tree or fruit of the tree of the knowledge of both good and Evil. But they did Anyway. Their eyes were opened immediately. First thing they saw was their nakedness and were embarrassed by it. As soon as they knew it, their innocence was Gone. And the Propensity for sinning was 'born'.

A sinful environment was born. We have sin all around us. We are not born with sin. We are born with a weak flesh. Not with sin or ''a propensity to sin''. God does not see any sin in children. When children reach an age of accountability (I believe 20), they can choose to give in to the lustful desires of the flesh. When this happens they will feel a ''propensity to sin''. As they choose to give in to the flesh and its desires.

As a baby grows up, they Do show signs of a sinful nature.

No they don't. They show signs of grasping ''needs''. They know they have to eat, so they want food. They will take someone else's food. They will not grasp the evil in taking another's food. So, literally no sin or desire to sin.

that's why children -- at a very young age -- need to be Taught to share and play nicely. And that biting / hitting/ taking toys from another child is Not nice. Their entire world is centered on 'me' -- their own personal survival.

They are victims of a sinful / dog eat dog environment. They are not themselves guilty of a propensity for evil. The environment is geared toward a balance of good and evil. As you said correction (good) selfishness (evil). Selfishness is from their existing a need to look after / out for oneself. IE the environment we are in. When Adam sinned, lions ate lambs. Before Adam's sin, lions did not eat lambs. Does a lion have a propensity for evil because God gave them big teeth? Or is a lion simply a victim of a sinful environment of 'dog eat dog' and has to 'go with it'.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- the 'age of accountability' is around 5 or 6 NOT 20.

Romans 3:23 "For All have Sinned....." -- Physical death.

Adam and Eve were cast Out of the garden and Did die eventually. After 930 years. IF they had Not touched or eaten of that fruit, they/ we could be living forever in the here and now.

And, actually , we're not told anything except that Adam died and at a specific age. And Eve isn't mentioned again after giving birth to Seth.

Look at Revelation 20: 11 - 15 for context vs 13-14.

Adam and Eve were created into a perfect environment. They sinned against God and ruined that environment.

A 'nice' place of death? What about the rich man and Lazarus. They both died -- but the rich man was begging someone to Please 'just a drop of water' to cool his parched tongue and to Please warn his brothers who were still alive and living a really messed up life that they Don't want to end up there where he found himself. No Fun at All.

Those who Do accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior --God sees Them through the blood of Christ - "just as if they'd never sinned' for the rest of us Our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.

In order for Anyone to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior -- they have to be old enough to Understand right from wrong. Are you Seriously saying that No one has that understanding until they are 20 yrs. of age? Maybe YOU didn't -- but Most kids can understand right from wrong at a very young age. Like 5 or 6. Kids that young Have understood salvation and Have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Adults younger than 20 -- Much younger than that are very capable of choosing to give in to lustful thinking or Not. Decision-making is done Very early in life. Junior high school age kids make Bad choices all the time. Even grade-school age kids do.

Young children do not usually take other kids' food. Very young children are still being fed or learning to eat finger foods.

So - in effect - you're saying that kids are Not responsible for their own actions. They are victims of their environment. Kids should Not have to be looking out for themselves.

Before Adam -- all we're told is that God Created all of them. Nothing more. The animal world was killed and eaten by people. In the animal world there is the chain of "environment" Animals are not the victim of Anything. They are a food source for other animals.

Sometimes I have a hard time believing that I'm having some of the 'conversations' that I'm having with you. .

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- the 'age of accountability' is around 5 or 6 NOT 20.

Scripture?

I use two scriptures for my argument.

1. Num 14:29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.
2. Acts 10:34 God is impartial. IE He will not treat Bob differently to Joe.

 

[KingJ]

Sometimes I have a hard time believing that I'm having some of the 'conversations' that I'm having with you. .

Sue, I see you as a sweet person. I love reading your replies. But, I do feel though that you need to quote more scriptures and quote me. This post above for example, I don't see how 90% of it relates to anything I posted.

 

[Rad]

Paul says I am a new creation 2 Cor 5:17. I am a sinner still, correct. Miserable, no. Stop this view of sin = sin. There is a difference between an unrepentant sinner and a repentant sinner. A WORLD of difference. Then there is a difference between a mortal sinner, a venial sinner, a good person and a Christian.

Why would you say that? The bible is rather crystal clear on who is worthy and why. Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17, Rev 3:20, James 1:27, James 4:8, Rom 12:9.

Of course that is not up to me. Only God judges hearts and minds and depths of intent that we can't Jer 17:9-11. But we can....'''learn''' from past judgments by Him ...surely??? In every instance in the OT where His wrath came upon people resulting in their immediate death we see a commonality among the wicked, namely unrepentant and in mortal sins.

Everyone alive is worthy, that is why they are not dead and in Hades. Jesus died for everyone John 3:16. God made us all His friends when He lay His life down John 15:13.

I like how you exclude....someone who said a few curse words (venial sinner) from the mortal sinners you mentioned. Then end with ''whatever''. A Christian is supposed to discern sin and punishments better then the unsaved according to Paul in 1 Cor 6:1-9. Now the unsaved can grasp the need to punish a murderer with 25 years in prison. The unsaved can grasp the need to punish a ''terrible thief'' who stole a piece of candy from a candy store with a $1 fine. Yet we ''Christians'' have even worse discernment. Like literally on the other end of the spectrum. Just insanely hilarious. Whenever I hear someone espouse sin=sin ''whatever'', I just know that person is deceived or about to justify their sin to me.

The reformation wars were not hatred toward sinners. There are not many Christian horrors toward people in sin. You have such a propaganda / contrived view of Christian history. The only space you are correct in is one where non-Christians or fake Christians (everyone wants to be a Christian) do a random act of violence. Hitler / Germans in WW2 for example killed many homosexuals. For this reason, we must not and we do not promote hate for sinners. This does not equate to us promoting approval of sin. We can and should still be able to HATE the sin. Preach against the sin. As God hates the sin. God does not change. False teachers would preach hatred for sinners or preach only a lob-sided message of intolerance for those in sin as opposed to a balanced message. You want a lob-sided message too with all your '''Jesus is a pacifist, mercy, love''. God hates false teaching. It is a mortal sin for which their are many warnings in scripture.

I love my enemy. I do turn the left cheek. God does this. He is our role model. Yet I also grasp those scriptures where God deals with the wicked. God does not do nothing about the wicked who hurt and oppress the innocent. Nor should we. Your message is a half truth. Teaching half truths when knowing the full truth is false teaching.

I fully grasp this passage. Note, Jesus never said what they were doing was wrong. God ordained death by stoning for adultery. God is Jesus. God does not change Num 23:19. You have cherry picked those verses out of much needed context. Jesus says in vs 11, ''go and sin no more''. What do you think would happen to her if she continued sinning? If she disobeyed Jesus?

What we have to understand is that Jesus saw in the adulterer a heart that was in a mortal sin but not yet sold out to the mortal sin. IE He saw hope. A lot like Psalm 51:17 was available in the OT to every mortal sinner that was stoned to death. We don't have to believe every mortal sinner stoned to death will be in hell as a result. The dangerous space is to be in sin unrepentant and a sin that points to a love of sin. IE a mortal sin. Jesus said we know someone by their fruits. If you had to leave your child with a sinner, which of these three sinners would you choose to leave them with? 1. A pedophile 2. a murderer 3. a person who thought about stealing candy from the candy store.

Nonsense. Paul says in 1 Cor 6:3 that we will judge angels. Paul says in 1 Cor 11:31 that we are able to judge ourselves at a level that would result in God not needing to judge us. 1 Cor 2:15 says we judge all things. The ''do not judge'' passage in I think Matt 7 has been discussed in depth on this site. It is not a ''do not judge''... fullstop statement.

Again, nonsense. We sentence a murderer to 25 years in prison, do you disagree with that? The sentence we don't pass is whether or not they are sold out to sin and now hell bound. Only God knows that. Only God judges heart and mind at that depth of intent Jer 17:9-11.

That is rather rude.

What specifically? Maybe quote a line from me. That is a rather insulting statement / bold accusation to make.

You are not grasping the message of grace and love. God is love. God gives grace. God is merciful. God is compassionate. But there is a point of no return. A point where God's love can no longer reach us because WE have made our intentions to HATE Him known. We hate God by loving what He hates. He HATES sin. I feel you are not grasping Prov 27:6. Kisses and standing by merely watching those in sin fall deeper, not wanting to ''offend them'' is NOT helping them.

Well there is more to it. Christians are taught once a week, sometimes 4 times a week to ''turn the left cheek, love our enemies, visit those in prison and comfort them''. They are NEVER taught to hate the sinner and make plans to hurt them.

There is uneasiness between GLBT and Christians because GLBT groups are impressing their way of life on us who want nothing to do with it. A baby girl can change her sex to male or some pro-noun. We who hate homosexuality are forced to ordain gay marriages in our church. Forced to bake cakes for gay marriages. We are losing our rights to hate this and love that. The first amendment is dying. We are moving toward a leftist socialism. I am more concerned for good Christians under a far left ruler-ship compared to GLBT's under the far right.

Hi KingJ wow, thats some reply, could i just ask for conveniences sake and the fact that i'm still trying to get used to the Copy/ reply system on this site to perhaps break up your comments into smaller sections, thanks in advance,..... right where to begin, could i just say, and i don't mean to be rude, that you seem very self assured of your views and of your own righteousness, and also of the assurance that you are a "Christian", you speak of "repentance", do you repent of all your sins, and how do you know that you're not one of the "many" Christ spoke of who believe themselves saved, but in fact are condemned, is there no room for doubt or uncertainty in your beliefs?,...... in Christs parable of the Publican and the Pharisee, it was the "miserable sinner" who was redeemed, not those assured of their own righteousness and actions,....... and who amongst us is to say who will be condemned , as Christ said" with god everything is possible", he sees into our hearts, knows our lives and actions , and he alone will judge us, you are a sinner, you view "judgement" through the prism of your own sins, who are you to cast the first stone, leave that where it belongs , to God,....... and talking of casting stones, thats an interesting take on the incident of the woman taken in Adultery, i would imagine that the woman, like all of us continued to sin, it seems to me that the point of Christs teaching there was aimed at the would be killers, those who presumed themselves in a position to pass judgement on a fellow sinner, and do i believe as a Christian i'm in a position to pass sentence on another, no i don't, for a corrupt and Evil society sets the laws and the penalties and then enforces them, someone murders a child and is executed, someone drops an A bomb on a city that kills thens of thousands of children and in all probabilities gets a medal, someone signs a piece of paper that condemns a whole nation to debt and servitude and is lauded in the press as a National saviour,....... yes God is Merciful, Loving and Compassionate, and as you say there is a day of Judgement and a point of no return, but thats for God to decide , not you, i fear you are failing to grasp the point at which your jurisdiction ends and Gods begins,...... as to your final point, and perhaps this could bring us back on thread, you have spoken passionately and vehemently of yours, and Gods Abhorrence of Homosexuality, and how you feel threatened by the Gay agenda infringing your rights, this for me is a reflection of your general attitude, there is an intolerance, a self righteousness , an absolute conviction of the correctness of your position that is displayed here, talk of Baking cakes and Gay marriage i feel hides a deeper dislike not just of Homosexuality but of Homosexuals themselves, i have the same "uneasiness" with Homosexuals as i do with Rich people, those that care little for the poor and needy, those that pollute and destroy Gods creation, abuse animals,....... and my own sins as well, which include most of the aforementioned, and despite my best attempts, my hypocrisy still runs deep ...... could i ask you a question, when did your Church or group last "censure" a sinner for being rich, or for not helping those in need, or for working for an Oil or Gas company thats trashing the Earth, you don't see that very often, too busy perhaps bashing those that are marginalised and despised, but aren't they the ones that Christ came for?.

 

[Sue D.]

Scripture?

I use two scriptures for my argument.

1. Num 14:29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.
2. Acts 10:34 God is impartial. IE He will not treat Bob differently to Joe.

The Numbers passage is talking about all men who are old enough to go to war. That's what the census was for. and being held accountable for their actions as adults. Nothing to do with anyone's salvation.

The Scriptures you're using are not grounds for the stand you are trying to take.

Your personal understanding of Scripture / doctrine leaves a Lot to be desired.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Nick, many thanks for your kind words , i included the Crusades as i see it as yet another prime example of the way that "Christians" have corrupted and perverted the message of Christ throughout the centuries to suit their own often hate filled, intolerant and greed driven agenda, my original post in this thread was centred on how i struggle with the same Hate and Intolerance that is shown towards Homosexuals by some who identify themselves as Christians and by looking through our History just where that can lead,....... i've read today that here in the UK reported attacks on Transgender people have risen by over 80% in the last year, and in the US there have been moves by the Trump administration to ban such people from the military, together with proposals to allow the denial of services , including medical treatment to gay people on the basis of "religious Freedom", and in many states in the US its still legal to fire someone from their job simply on the basis of their sexuality, ....... now whilst not all these attacks are the result of actions by Christians, some are, and the marginalisation and vilification of any section of society by those called on to Love their Neighbour as themselves, is not only against Christs teachings, but extremely dangerous and can lead to some of the worst excesses known to history,....... we might differ on the issue of Salvation by works, but i guess thats a whole new thread my friend!!

Hello Rad,
No problem on the kind words I do love you brother!

Now on what you are seeking to put into the Christian realm of authority or control is something that actually belongs to the secular. The governments we are talking about are secular. Certain individuals within the government might profess to being of one faith or another, but in total they really are Secular. To quote former President Obama. America is not a Christian Nation. So, tying what drives policies to Christianity, is either not understanding, or seeing only part of the picture. Certainly there are churches & faith based organizations that are attempting to ensure that faith based policies are in place. However, there is probably more movement (laws) in the direction of condoning alternate life styles, or immoral life styles, which is the way I see it according to Scripture, than there is promoting Bible based Morality. Which means to me that these laws are allowing for a new type of Sodom/Gomorrah to exist. Normalizing certain types of life styles is not loving dear brother. Quite the opposite really.

We as Christians cannot use a misapplying of the concept of love as an excuse to disregard what Scripture says as it pertains to Morality. There is a "truth" that exists in Scripture that time or social mores has no affect on. God does not change as it pertains to Sin. He's allowed His Mercy and Forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ to be made available to all. The problem is that not all want it. Many because they actually think they know what Scripture says, and "change" is not what they want, even if it's for their benefit. So, if man made laws, and misguided Christians can be used to make sinful behavior acceptable or appear normal. They'll jump at that, but leave the Word of God, to the annals of History. That is if they could. The Word of God is Eternal brother.

So, the battle for not only the hearts, but the very souls of each person is happening as we speak. Have there been excesses now and in history? Yes, and sadly, for what they have done. They will have a day of accounting. You may say, but that doesn't help those who have paid the price, or still paying the price, but I tell you they are in good company with our Lord and Savior.

I would just plead with you that what individuals go through or what they do while still without Christ in their lives, not hold you from sharing what He did on the Cross for them. Yes, I repeat, that many have paid a high price, by some misguided Christians, some so-called Christians, and Secular people mostly. Just remember that we're not living for this World as Children of the Most High, but for the one to come, as we await His return.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[KingJ]

The Numbers passage is talking about all men who are old enough to go to war. That's what the census was for. and being held accountable for their actions as adults. Nothing to do with anyone's salvation.

They were counted in a census, yes. Yes, correct at 21 they are accountable for their actions. Glad you acknowledge that. Nothing to do with salvation? Why you say that? Are you having a chat with someone else and including that line by mistake?

You are missing the point. The passage is not talking about them for example 'dying in battle'. It is God saying ''I am going to destroy you'', but NOT those 20 and under. Those who have ''grumbled'' against Him. 10 - 100 years of age grumbled. Only those 21 and over will fall.

Num 14:28-32 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: In this wilderness your bodies will fall every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.
Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected.

But as for you, your bodies will fall in this wilderness.

 

[Sue D.]

KingJ -- sounds like you're associating their grumbling with their salvation. Sort of a works-based salvation.

They were traveling to their Promised Land. They were grumbling to the Lord on the way. They were Supposed to follow Without grumbling. They were in the process of traveling to a far off destination. They were allowed to wander for those 40 years until they died naturally.

God Does have a 'promised land' waiting for Us. It's called heaven. But our grumbling / complaining about our journey isn't going to keep Us out Of the coming eternity In heaven. That would be -- in effect -- a works-based salvation.

Seems that You are the one missing the point. And, no, I'm not mixing up conversations with anyone else. I said that That had Nothing to do with their salvation. Because it Didn't. In That particular situation and , well, nowdays -- God does Not want us grumbling about His directions in our lives. BUT our grumbling or complaining is Not affecting our salvation. I have a younger son - in his late 30's. He's going through a stage of bad attitude towards Lots of things. Does That mean he's not saved? No. Because he is a born-again believer. Does it mean he's in danger of loosing his salvation? No. But he Is going through a bad / negative stage of life right now. His Dad died about 9 months ago. One of his nephews died about 7 yrs. ago and a brother-in-law who he greatly respected decided to divorce his older sister. And he was Mean-spirited about it. And, all of this, has had a negative affect on him. The people he's around is being negatively affected By his sour attitudes, but it's not risking his salvation.

 

[Brother-Paul]

LGBTQ+ There is never a day now that there isn't publicity about it.

This week SKY TV are pushing films that back it.

The other day I read that big nation accompanies are now backing it, why, quite simple it says, there is big money to be made in it.

I went to Sainsbury's supermarket, a big bill board says We back LGBTQ+ The bar code readers have rainbow colours on them. They sell Tu brand clothing, who is gay.

The only good news, though for the wrong reason, was Putin had the film Rocket Man by Elton John edited to take out the gay parts.

It is good to see people stand up to the LGBTQ+ movement, sadly the only ones to stand up against it so far are
- Putin in Russia
- Muslims in Birmingham UK

Where are the institutionalised christian church leaders?

Not a word, they are probably to frightened due to their own sins, probably to frightened as church numbers are dropping.

But let us not worry, in the end times, in the latter days, it will appear the devil has domain. It sure does but the good news it is only confirming scripture as True!

 

[KingJ]

KingJ -- sounds like you're associating their grumbling with their salvation. Sort of a works-based salvation.

They were traveling to their Promised Land. They were grumbling to the Lord on the way. They were Supposed to follow Without grumbling. They were in the process of traveling to a far off destination. They were allowed to wander for those 40 years until they died naturally.

God Does have a 'promised land' waiting for Us. It's called heaven. But our grumbling / complaining about our journey isn't going to keep Us out Of the coming eternity In heaven. That would be -- in effect -- a works-based salvation.

Seems that You are the one missing the point. And, no, I'm not mixing up conversations with anyone else. I said that That had Nothing to do with their salvation. Because it Didn't. In That particular situation and , well, nowdays -- God does Not want us grumbling about His directions in our lives. BUT our grumbling or complaining is Not affecting our salvation. I have a younger son - in his late 30's. He's going through a stage of bad attitude towards Lots of things. Does That mean he's not saved? No. Because he is a born-again believer. Does it mean he's in danger of loosing his salvation? No. But he Is going through a bad / negative stage of life right now. His Dad died about 9 months ago. One of his nephews died about 7 yrs. ago and a brother-in-law who he greatly respected decided to divorce his older sister. And he was Mean-spirited about it. And, all of this, has had a negative affect on him. The people he's around is being negatively affected By his sour attitudes, but it's not risking his salvation.

It was not because they were '''grumbling about their journey'' that God ordained capital punishment for them.