What If I'm Born Gay?

[Brother-Paul]

God intended for us all to live with him forever.

The Apostle Paul explains in Romans 6:23 why instead we have to die, “Death is the wages of sin.”

That's what Paul means when he says in 1 Corinthians 15:56, “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

The bee brings forth nectar which is good and the bee never stings unless it is life or death situation.

But the sting of death is Sin, which are the due wages for unrepentant sins. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and the LIFE

 

[Br. Bear]

 

[Rad]

This is true. Even God does not hate a sinner. He communicates often with the devil. But the catch 22 is that the devil is cast out and will eternally be separated by his choice to love sin. I love every sinner. If I can, one day in heaven I will regularly visit those in hell and ensure they are fine. Well treated. Well fed. Healthy. God desires the same. But loving the sinner does not unfortunately result in them loving God.

This is why we cannot / must not blur what love for God is. We only stumble people further. Love is not a feeling. Love is not giving someone kisses. Love for God is doing Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17, Rom 12:9, Rev 3:20. IE Hating what is evil and repenting truthfully.

People hate God because they love the darkness, evil deeds John 3:19.


Such as? The Catholic inquisition stopped the mass slaughter of people. Under it just over 3 000 people died over 400 years. As opposed to 3 000 per month.


If you are a homosexual in a Muslim country you do need to be concerned, yes. But in a Christian dominated country, you mostly live in peace. You get ''harassed'' only by people trying to save you from hell. To compare that to those wanting to throw you off a roof repeatedly until you cant walk is a gross miss representation and pure dishonesty.

The Inquisition didn't stop the mass slaughter and persecution of people, the Inquisition had at its heart an intolerance and Hate that led to the torture and death of thousands of so called "heretics", and there are of course the Crusades, slaughter and destruction on a massive scale in the name of a Saviour who commanded his followers to Love their enemies, and then of course there have been numerous "Religious Wars" where nations have fought over who has the one true Christian God, and throughout History the persecution and mass killing of Jews has many times been carried out in the name of Christianity, ........ as for the treatment of Homosexuals in "Christian dominated Countries", it has taken many years of campaigning and struggle to achieve a level of equality free from persecution and discrimination in many "Christian" countries, and there are always those, in their perverted sense of Righteous intolerance and hate who seek to roll back those reforms, whether it be the right to deny Gay people essential services in the name of religious freedom , or calls for their being murdered by so called "pastors", to the right of employers to fire them just for their sexuality and of being deprived the right to serve in the military,....... and in some Christian Dominated countries in Africa people can be arrested, beaten, tortured and imprisoned just for the sin of being Gay, this is not a "gross misrepresentation", it is not "pure dishonesty", there has been , and is, a strong element of Intolerance and Hate running through "Christian" circles towards Homosexuality, not in the name of saving people from hell, but in the name of a Self Righteous persecution of the sins of others and abhorrence of Homosexuals...... i suggest you check your facts again and understand the capacity of ordinary people to commit extraordinary acts of evil if the wrong conditions in society prevail, did the Holocaust teach us nothing?.

 

[Armin]

If I may respond, a little bit indirectly to a post that I saw earlier without bothering the poster, yes, I believe you can hate sinning and sin without hating sinners. God does not hate sinners. He certainly punishes them for stubborn unbelief, even to the point of eternal hell, but that’s their fault. Not his will,

The gist of this video is that sinners go to Hell because it is their choice to be foolish, that even a sinner can choose to be changed by God’s grace through faith. Therefore God, God does not hate sinners.

 

[KingJ]

The Inquisition didn't stop the mass slaughter and persecution of people, the Inquisition

Yes it did. Inquisition was called such as the Catholic church wanted to make a proper inquiry of a person before they were just put to death for a silly reason (IE being a Jew or not a Catholic). Many distort the facts. But facts are that they stopped mass slaughter. I studied this in depth a year ago. The numbers being killed by the new Spanish king were on par with Isis in its heyday. Under the inquisition there are records kept of just over 3 000 deaths. Most of these by torture. That is bad, don't get me wrong. The torture of anyone is inexcusable. But it is a long stretch from as some claim ''millions died''.

the Crusades,

There is a letter the pope addressed to the church in the 12th century. You can Google it. Therein the pope makes his case for the start of the crusades. It said that Christians were being arrested, tortured and put to death. There was a rise of an 'Isis' type Islam extremism that had to be dealt with.

slaughter and destruction on a massive scale in the name of a Saviour who commanded his followers to Love their enemies,

Christians have a right to self defense. The only war I find hard to swallow was the killing of around 200 000 Welsh of which most were Catholics by Oliver Cromwell in the 16th century. Oliver Cromwell was himself not a good protestant Christian, but the war is seen as one of Christian verse Christian.

and then of course there have been numerous "Religious Wars" where nations have fought over who has the one true Christian God,

Example? I hate generalization and statements that '''sound'' correct. Do proper research, don't come with weak and nauseating statements.

and throughout History the persecution and mass killing of Jews has many times been carried out in the name of Christianity,

I only know of the Spanish war. Where it is a known fact that the new king was not a Catholic but had to convert as he was now ruling a Catholic dominated country.

as for the treatment of Homosexuals in "Christian dominated Countries", it has taken many years of campaigning and struggle to achieve a level of equality free from persecution and discrimination in many "Christian" countries,

I can think of many reasons why a society at large reject homosexuality.

and there are always those, in their perverted sense of Righteous intolerance and hate who seek to roll back those reforms, whether it be the right to deny Gay people essential services in the name of religious freedom , or calls for their being murdered by so called "pastors", to the right of employers to fire them just for their sexuality and of being deprived the right to serve in the military,....... and in some Christian Dominated countries in Africa people can be arrested, beaten, tortured and imprisoned just for the sin of being Gay, this is not a "gross misrepresentation", it is not "pure dishonesty", there has been , and is, a strong element of Intolerance and Hate running through "Christian" circles towards Homosexuality, not in the name of saving people from hell, but in the name of a Self Righteous persecution of the sins of others and abhorrence of Homosexuals...... i suggest you check your facts again and understand the capacity of ordinary people to commit extraordinary acts of evil if the wrong conditions in society prevail, did the Holocaust teach us nothing?.

You don't need to be a Christian to know or believe that homosexuality upset a Creator. Every God fearing person will feel righteous indignation to the sin.

If I was the victim of another's righteous indignation, surely I would investigate why.

Christians are never taught to persecute and kill. We are told to love even our enemies Matt 5:44. I am all for fair treatment of those in the GLBT community. But they are not all for fair treatment of me. Are they?

We cannot force someone to do something they don't want to. As long as nobody is being harmed, we can be at peace. But is nobody being harmed? Many (including me) are up in arms because we believe the first amendment, Christian pastors, children and bakers are in harms way.

The holocaust was a partial fulfilling of scripture. It re-united Jews in Israel. The lesson we can learn is that a wicked person demonizes those who have wealth and are in minority. Christians are neither wicked nor in majority today. Your arguments are weak and full of conjecture.

 

[Brother-Paul]

1 John 4:7-21 (NKJV)
7 Beloved, let us love (agapao moral love) one another, for love is of God (agape divine love); and everyone who loves (agapao) is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God (agape divine love) was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love (agape divine love) one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. (agape divine love) God is love (agape divine love), and he who abides in love (agape divine love) abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love (agape divine love)has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; (agape divine love) but perfect love (agape divine love) casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love (agape divine love).
19 We love Him because He first loved us.
20 If someone says, "I love (agapao moral love) God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love (agapao moral love) his brother whom he has seen, how can he love (agapao moral love) God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves (agapao moral love) God must love (agapao moral love) his brother also.

God is Love, this scripture is often quoted incorrectly, it is true that God is Love, but we need to consider which 'love' is being referred to as there are, from memory, 7 or nine words used for love but in English and the western word it is used 'loosely' for love of wife or children, love of job, love soccer or football or sport, love holidays, love money, love sex, even to say love God!

The above passage uses two words for love, they read love, easy to misunderstand, but they have different meanings.

God's Love is 'agape love' which is 'Divine Love' not to be mistaken from any other type of love.

It is common amongst LGBTQ+ and amongst show business celebrities that God is love and if I love, God loves me, and I will go to heaven when I die!

Here again is a common error with scripture, reading out of context and not understanding the links to other verses which together reveal the Truth in God's Word.

Salvation only comes through Jesus.

Acts 4:12 (NKJV)
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5 (NKJV)
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

John 14:6 (NKJV)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. everlasting life.

To accept God is Love and not accept Jesus who died for our sins, to not accept ALL scripture,and not accept what Jesus says and everything He teaches, is like accepting to call on the Lord or Believe on the Lord and you will be saved.

Romans 10:13 (NKJV)
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Acts 16:31 (NKJV)
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have

Here the message is to the Saved, not to the lost wanting to be saved. It is important to understand how we Call and how we Believe, does what we say come from the head, the mind or the lips, or does it come from the heart, in true repentance.

To be Saved is to be born anew, born again, become a new creation, Jesus sums it up in John's Gospel verse 3, 5 and 7 but I include all the following scripture, as John 3:16, the Gospel in miniature, is often misread and the verses to follow are extremely important.

John 3:1-21 (NKJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has 'not believed in the name' of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Sin is evil in God's eyes.

If we accept God is Love, we must accept Jesus as our Saviour, we must repent of all evil, of all our sins, we must be born again, born anew, we must be a new creation, or we will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Br. Bear]

1 John 4:7-21 (NKJV)
7 Beloved, let us love (agapao moral love) one another, for love is of God (agape divine love); and everyone who loves (agapao) is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God (agape divine love) was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love (agape divine love) one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. (agape divine love) God is love (agape divine love), and he who abides in love (agape divine love) abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love (agape divine love)has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; (agape divine love) but perfect love (agape divine love) casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love (agape divine love).
19 We love Him because He first loved us.
20 If someone says, "I love (agapao moral love) God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love (agapao moral love) his brother whom he has seen, how can he love (agapao moral love) God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves (agapao moral love) God must love (agapao moral love) his brother also.

God is Love, this scripture is often quoted incorrectly, it is true that God is Love, but we need to consider which 'love' is being referred to as there are, from memory, 7 or nine words used for love but in English and the western word it is used 'loosely' for love of wife or children, love of job, love soccer or football or sport, love holidays, love money, love sex, even to say love God!

The above passage uses two words for love, they read love, easy to misunderstand, but they have different meanings.

God's Love is 'agape love' which is 'Divine Love' not to be mistaken from any other type of love.

It is common amongst LGBTQ+ and amongst show business celebrities that God is love and if I love, God loves me, and I will go to heaven when I die!

Here again is a common error with scripture, reading out of context and not understanding the links to other verses which together reveal the Truth in God's Word.

Salvation only comes through Jesus.

Acts 4:12 (NKJV)
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5 (NKJV)
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

John 14:6 (NKJV)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. everlasting life.

To accept God is Love and not accept Jesus who died for our sins, to not accept ALL scripture,and not accept what Jesus says and everything He teaches, is like accepting to call on the Lord or Believe on the Lord and you will be saved.

Romans 10:13 (NKJV)
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Acts 16:31 (NKJV)
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have

Here the message is to the Saved, not to the lost wanting to be saved. It is important to understand how we Call and how we Believe, does what we say come from the head, the mind or the lips, or does it come from the heart, in true repentance.

To be Saved is to be born anew, born again, become a new creation, Jesus sums it up in John's Gospel verse 3, 5 and 7 but I include all the following scripture, as John 3:16, the Gospel in miniature, is often misread and the verses to follow are extremely important.

John 3:1-21 (NKJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has 'not believed in the name' of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Sin is evil in God's eyes.

If we accept God is Love, we must accept Jesus as our Saviour, we must repent of all evil, of all our sins, we must be born again, born anew, we must be a new creation, or we will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

thank you for that @Brother-Paul


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brother-Paul]

I did wonder if it should maybe have it's own thread.

Thank you for your kind comments brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes it did. Inquisition was called such as the Catholic church wanted to make a proper inquiry of a person before they were just put to death for a silly reason (IE being a Jew or not a Catholic). Many distort the facts. But facts are that they stopped mass slaughter. I studied this in depth a year ago. The numbers being killed by the new Spanish king were on par with Isis in its heyday. Under the inquisition there are records kept of just over 3 000 deaths. Most of these by torture. That is bad, don't get me wrong. The torture of anyone is inexcusable. But it is a long stretch from as some claim ''millions died''.


There is a letter the pope addressed to the church in the 12th century. You can Google it. Therein the pope makes his case for the start of the crusades. It said that Christians were being arrested, tortured and put to death. There was a rise of an 'Isis' type Islam extremism that had to be dealt with.

Christians have a right to self defense. The only war I find hard to swallow was the killing of around 200 000 Irish of which most were Catholics by Oliver Cromwell in the 16th century. Oliver Cromwell was himself not a good protestant Christian, but the war is seen as one of Christian verse Christian.


Example? I hate generalization and statements that '''sound'' correct. Do proper research, don't come with weak and nauseating statements.

I only know of the Spanish war. Where it is a known fact that the new king was not a Catholic but had to convert as he was now ruling a Catholic dominated country.


I can think of many reasons why a society at large reject homosexuality.



You don't need to be a Christian to know or believe that homosexuality upset a Creator. Every God fearing person will feel righteous indignation to the sin.

If I was the victim of another's righteous indignation, surely I would investigate why.

Christians are never taught to persecute and kill. We are told to love even our enemies Matt 5:44. I am all for fair treatment of those in the GLBT community. But they are not all for fair treatment of me. Are they?

We cannot force someone to do something they don't want to. As long as nobody is being harmed, we can be at peace. But is nobody being harmed? Many (including me) are up in arms because we believe the first amendment, Christian pastors, children and bakers are in harms way.

The holocaust was a partial fulfilling of scripture. It re-united Jews in Israel. The lesson we can learn is that a wicked person demonizes those who have wealth and are in minority. Christians are neither wicked nor in majority today. Your arguments are weak and full of conjecture.

So much is taken for granted in this day and age in what are called churches, the ways of each denomination and style of worship differ in each, but the theme is the same. There are comfortable pews, or cushioned seating, for many it is a meeting point for church goers, rather than the church coming together to worship and pray and have fellowship. For many sadly it is the going to church for a top up of the spirit to see through to next Sunday, an an hour an a half or so later it is back to the worldly ways.

Some churches do do out reach, but it is always the same people who do it, usually the born again, who when they come together are part of the worldwide One True Church. But for many, again sadly, there is an opportunity to at least reach in, if not out, but they miss that also. Churches, as they are called, are full of unsaved souls that think they will go to heaven for what ever reason, here is an opportunity to reach out from within, but so many miss the opportunity. Admittedly, it is not always easy to reach out from within, because those within the fellowship think they are saved and don't want other members telling them what is right or wrong.

How many Christians, or unsaved ones that think they are Christians, know about Church History, the Catholics and the Protestants both do not want to touch those areas due to church history, it could open a can of worms, a big can of worms.

But I believe every believer needs to look at church history, look at all the killings that took place in the name of 'Religion'. We owe it to our selves to find out, and to look back to Acts at the first church and compare the differences with what is called the Christian Church today. People would be in for a shock I am sure, but will many look back? NO! Life is to cozy in our materialistic world, they like things as they are, not as they used to be. But as they used to be tells us clearly what the church should be like.

Has the devil got his foot in the church door, No! He sits in the pews or those nice cushioned chairs and laughs.

 

[KingJ]

The only war I find hard to swallow was the killing of around 200 000 Irish.

Edit ''killing of 200 000 Welsh''.

 

[KingJ]

But I believe every believer needs to look at church history, look at all the killings that took place in the name of 'Religion'. We owe it to our selves to find out, and to look back to Acts at the first church and compare the differences with what is called the Christian Church today.

Could not agree more. I wish those who make false accusations would also do their research.

How many Christians, or unsaved ones that think they are Christians, know about Church History, the Catholics and the Protestants both do not want to touch those areas due to church history, it could open a can of worms, a big can of worms

Such as? No offence but I hate these '''assumptions''' that sound right and true.

 

[Sue D.]

King J -- God is the creator -- His plan has Always been for one man and one woman to join together in marriage and produce children/family.

No matter Why a person feels attraction to someone of the same sex, they are Not to act upon it. Two men 'together' are Not going to ever create a new life. Two women being 'together' are Not going to ever create a new life together.

As far as the church history is concerned -- is it really necessary To go 'there'? The RCC vs Protestantism -- is based mostly on there being a 1st Pope -- Peter. That is Not Scriptural. Pastor was speaking on that just yesterday. Peter, himself, is stating that Jesus Christ is the corner stone. That Peter is merely one of thousands of little stones that the Main cornerstone supports. That faith in Jesus Christ is the foundation. Nothing else is. So since Peter was never a 1st pope -- a succession of popes is equally not valid. The Vatican is very strong, powerful, but Not- Biblical.

Lots of concepts are Strong, powerful and Not Scriptural.

 

[KingJ]

If I may respond, a little bit indirectly to a post that I saw earlier without bothering the poster, yes, I believe you can hate sinning and sin without hating sinners. God does not hate sinners. He certainly punishes them for stubborn unbelief, even to the point of eternal hell, but that’s their fault. Not his will,

The gist of this video is that sinners go to Hell because it is their choice to be foolish, that even a sinner can choose to be changed by God’s grace through faith. Therefore God, God does not hate sinners.

Yes, God does not hate sinners. He hates only sin. His wrath is only on those sold out to sin Gen 15:16, Gen 18:20. His wrath is swift. He does not delay their death. No torture takes place. Scripture says the fires of Sodom were '''high'''. Swift destruction is not evidence of hate. It is evidence of change. God removing the wicked. He cannot have those sold out to wickedness around.....children. If one can prove that God tortures the wicked, they can prove that God hates the wicked and vice versa. Sadly nobody can prove that God tortures the wicked for said sin. The closest we can come if playing devils advocate is by proposing plagues and burning in hell fire is evidence of torturing the wicked. But if we read scripture properly we see that plagues are sent with the view to get people to repent and turn from wickedness. It is not a direct punishment for a specific wickedness or something that comes upon those sold out to wickedness. Hell fire being torturous is currently only an assumption. Luke 13:28 says people in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see that they are cast out. Not because they are on fire.

God is love. 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

People hate God and will eternally be separated because they love the darkness. That is the verdict according to John 3:19.

I don't agree with the line ''that even a sinner can choose to be changed by God’s grace through faith''. Faith comes '''after''' we repent. If it comes before and is the reason for repentance you are espousing a partial God. A wicked God. God is not partial Acts 10:34. We give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1.

We repent Psalm 51:17, we choose to follow Jesus and lay our lives down for Him Matt 16:24, He then judges our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11, if we pass we get faith Rom 12:3 / a revelation of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 Nobody can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Exactly what happened to Peter in Matt 16:16-17. He could muster up way more faith then any of the other disciples, but yet he still needed this revelation of Jesus from God.

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- Your very last paragraph -- you are taking passages that are very much Scripture and misapplying them. There is no test to pass in order to get 'faith'. You're doing a works based salvation. Yes, repentance Is part of salvation. An important part. We accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. We are then Wanting to follow Christ. And Lots of people Do end up giving their lives for the cause Of Christ. It's like -- either renounce your faith - deny Christ Or you Die. And the person doing the threatening doesn't really care which happens, But, He does Not Then judge our hearts and minds. There is No 'test' we are needing To pass. The Holy Spirit Does work in our hearts --the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit Does give us the desire To obey God.

Okay -- Peter was being questioned. Others were being asked 'who am I' -- verse 13 - asking His disciples "Who do men say that I , the Son of Man, am?" They responded that Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah and other Jeremiah or one of the prophets. vs 15 "But who do you say that I am?" vs 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "you are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
The next verse says that no person was telling Peter that , but only the Father in heaven.

Peter is given the job of sharing Gospel unto salvation to the Jewish population. And I'm thinking it's Paul who goes to the Gentile people with Gospel unto salvation.
The keys to the kingdom of heaven. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Salvation is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Placing our faith in the blood / Jesus Christ.

Does that passage say what you said it does? That Peter could muster up way more faith than the other disciples. All we know is that he's the one who Did speak up. And, from what I've understood, that every person does Not especially have the same amount of faith.

And, yes, Peter Still did need that from God. Just like everyone else does.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Edit ''killing of 200 000 Welsh''.

Done

 

[Rad]

Yes it did. Inquisition was called such as the Catholic church wanted to make a proper inquiry of a person before they were just put to death for a silly reason (IE being a Jew or not a Catholic). Many distort the facts. But facts are that they stopped mass slaughter. I studied this in depth a year ago. The numbers being killed by the new Spanish king were on par with Isis in its heyday. Under the inquisition there are records kept of just over 3 000 deaths. Most of these by torture. That is bad, don't get me wrong. The torture of anyone is inexcusable. But it is a long stretch from as some claim ''millions died''.


There is a letter the pope addressed to the church in the 12th century. You can Google it. Therein the pope makes his case for the start of the crusades. It said that Christians were being arrested, tortured and put to death. There was a rise of an 'Isis' type Islam extremism that had to be dealt with.

Christians have a right to self defense. The only war I find hard to swallow was the killing of around 200 000 Irish of which most were Catholics by Oliver Cromwell in the 16th century. Oliver Cromwell was himself not a good protestant Christian, but the war is seen as one of Christian verse Christian.


Example? I hate generalization and statements that '''sound'' correct. Do proper research, don't come with weak and nauseating statements.

I only know of the Spanish war. Where it is a known fact that the new king was not a Catholic but had to convert as he was now ruling a Catholic dominated country.


I can think of many reasons why a society at large reject homosexuality.



You don't need to be a Christian to know or believe that homosexuality upset a Creator. Every God fearing person will feel righteous indignation to the sin.

If I was the victim of another's righteous indignation, surely I would investigate why.

Christians are never taught to persecute and kill. We are told to love even our enemies Matt 5:44. I am all for fair treatment of those in the GLBT community. But they are not all for fair treatment of me. Are they?

We cannot force someone to do something they don't want to. As long as nobody is being harmed, we can be at peace. But is nobody being harmed? Many (including me) are up in arms because we believe the first amendment, Christian pastors, children and bakers are in harms way.

The holocaust was a partial fulfilling of scripture. It re-united Jews in Israel. The lesson we can learn is that a wicked person demonizes those who have wealth and are in minority. Christians are neither wicked nor in majority today. Your arguments are weak and full of conjecture.

I think we're both agreed that the Inquisition, resulted in the torture and death, often by burning of thousands of its victims, i never claimed that "millions died", just that the Hate and intolerance shown by so called "Christians" has led to mass persecution and suffering and that the dangers of this Hate and Intolerance, particularly as they relate to homosexuality, are just as dangerous now as they were then,..... and whatever the supposed provocation, there are no justifications for the wanton killing and destruction unleashed on so called "pagans", be they Jews, Muslims or Christians of different beliefs that the Crusades unleashed, or are you trying to justify it with your "ISIS type islam extremism that had to be dealt with", you really need to be aware of the evil forces you are playing with here, read an account of the taking of Jerusalem in the first Crusade, of the slaughter that took place, how can you reconcile that with your professed belief in Christ,...... and where does Christ say that "Christians have a right of self defence", wheres the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies", i've always believed that Christ is a Pacifist, that he understands once we hit back, once we deem our cause so righteous it can justify violence, then we unleash the demons in our souls that threaten to engulf us in Hate and retribution, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Dresden and other German cities come to mind,...... you really do need to do a little more research, heres what i was referring to, "
The European wars of religion were a series of religious wars waged in Europe in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century.[1][2] The wars were fought after the Protestant Reformation's beginning in 1517, which disrupted the religious and political order in the Catholic countries of Europe. However, religion was not the only cause of the wars, which also included revolts, territorial ambitions, and Great Power conflicts. For example, by the end of the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), Catholic France was allied with the Protestant forces against the Catholic Habsburg monarchy.[3] The wars were largely ended by the Peace of Westphalia (1648), establishing a new political order that is now known as Westphalian sovereignty. However, religion-based armed conflict persisted in Europe, such as the Wars of the Three Kingdoms(1639–1651) on the British Isles and the Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) and Toggenburg War (1712) in the Western Alps, until the 1710s.[2]
The conflicts began with the minor Knights' Revolt (1522), followed by the larger German Peasants' War (1524–1525) in the Holy Roman Empire. Warfare intensified after the Catholic Church began the Counter-Reformation in 1545 against the growth of Protestantism. The conflicts culminated in the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), which devastated Germany and killed one-third of its population.[2] The Peace of Westphalia (1648) put an end to the war by recognising three separate Christian traditions in the Holy Roman Empire: Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism.[4][5] Although many European leaders were "sickened" by the bloodshed by 1648,[6] religious wars continued to be waged in the post-Westphalian period until the 1710s,[2] and collective memory of the wars lasted even longer." the wars in Europe between Protestant and Catholic that raged through the 16th - 18th centuries, Christians massacring and slaughtering other Christians to decide whose God is the one true God,....... we are not talking of rejecting Homosexuality, we are talking of Christian dominated societies persecuting, torturing and in some cases murdering Homosexuals, whatever your views on homosexuality, hate and Intolerance of the sinner should have no place in your Christian faith, thats the point i was making,...... and how may i ask are the Gay Community treating you unfairly, and even if they were, what as Christians should be our response, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you and pray for those that persecute you, seems to me that "Righteous Indignation" should have no place in aChristians response to sin, but then perhaps you view Christs commandments to love your neighbour as yourself differently,....... are you seriously saying that you believe the best way God could find to re-unite Jews in israel was to initiate the Holocaust, and the Holocaust had nothing to do with a "Wicked person demonising those that had Wealth and in a minority", it had everything to do with a Christian dialogue that had persisted in Europe for centuries of anti-semitism and that culminated in the bringing to power of Hitler and the unleashing of the Hate and Intolerance that led to the Murder of millions of innocent men, women and children, if you want references for this i will give them, but it seems to me that in some way you are attempting to justify the horrific abuses and slaughter that have taken place in the name of Christianity, and as such are playing with fire, as that same evil is alive and strong today, inciting Hate and Intolerance particularly as i say in some sections of the "Church" at homosexuals, as such your arguments are dangerous and in my opinion theologically bankrupt.

 

[KingJ]

@King J. -- Your very last paragraph -- you are taking passages that are very much Scripture and misapplying them. There is no test to pass in order to get 'faith'. You're doing a works based salvation. Yes, repentance Is part of salvation. An important part. We accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. We are then Wanting to follow Christ. And Lots of people Do end up giving their lives for the cause Of Christ. It's like -- either renounce your faith - deny Christ Or you Die. And the person doing the threatening doesn't really care which happens, But, He does Not Then judge our hearts and minds. There is No 'test' we are needing To pass. The Holy Spirit Does work in our hearts --the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit Does give us the desire To obey God.

Okay -- Peter was being questioned. Others were being asked 'who am I' -- verse 13 - asking His disciples "Who do men say that I , the Son of Man, am?" They responded that Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah and other Jeremiah or one of the prophets. vs 15 "But who do you say that I am?" vs 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "you are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
The next verse says that no person was telling Peter that , but only the Father in heaven.

Peter is given the job of sharing Gospel unto salvation to the Jewish population. And I'm thinking it's Paul who goes to the Gentile people with Gospel unto salvation.
The keys to the kingdom of heaven. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Salvation is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Placing our faith in the blood / Jesus Christ.

Does that passage say what you said it does? That Peter could muster up way more faith than the other disciples. All we know is that he's the one who Did speak up. And, from what I've understood, that every person does Not especially have the same amount of faith.

And, yes, Peter Still did need that from God. Just like everyone else does.

Sue, I just don't see any scripture in your post. Why don't you quote a scripture I have provided and explain your view of it. That would be a lot more fruitful.

Why do you say I believe a works based salvation? I don't. Please quote my phrase.

 

[KingJ]

I think we're both agreed that the Inquisition, resulted in the torture and death, often by burning of thousands of its victims, i never claimed that "millions died", just that the Hate and intolerance shown by so called "Christians" has led to mass persecution and suffering and that the dangers of this Hate and Intolerance, particularly as they relate to homosexuality, are just as dangerous now as they were then,..... and whatever the supposed provocation, there are no justifications for the wanton killing and destruction unleashed on so called "pagans", be they Jews, Muslims or Christians of different beliefs that the Crusades unleashed, or are you trying to justify it with your "ISIS type islam extremism that had to be dealt with", you really need to be aware of the evil forces you are playing with here, read an account of the taking of Jerusalem in the first Crusade, of the slaughter that took place, how can you reconcile that with your professed belief in Christ,...... and where does Christ say that "Christians have a right of self defence", wheres the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies", i've always believed that Christ is a Pacifist, that he understands once we hit back, once we deem our cause so righteous it can justify violence, then we unleash the demons in our souls that threaten to engulf us in Hate and retribution, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Dresden and other German cities come to mind,...... you really do need to do a little more research, heres what i was referring to, "
The European wars of religion were a series of religious wars waged in Europe in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century.[1][2] The wars were fought after the Protestant Reformation's beginning in 1517, which disrupted the religious and political order in the Catholic countries of Europe. However, religion was not the only cause of the wars, which also included revolts, territorial ambitions, and Great Power conflicts. For example, by the end of the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), Catholic France was allied with the Protestant forces against the Catholic Habsburg monarchy.[3] The wars were largely ended by the Peace of Westphalia (1648), establishing a new political order that is now known as Westphalian sovereignty. However, religion-based armed conflict persisted in Europe, such as the Wars of the Three Kingdoms(1639–1651) on the British Isles and the Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) and Toggenburg War (1712) in the Western Alps, until the 1710s.[2]
The conflicts began with the minor Knights' Revolt (1522), followed by the larger German Peasants' War (1524–1525) in the Holy Roman Empire. Warfare intensified after the Catholic Church began the Counter-Reformation in 1545 against the growth of Protestantism. The conflicts culminated in the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), which devastated Germany and killed one-third of its population.[2] The Peace of Westphalia (1648) put an end to the war by recognising three separate Christian traditions in the Holy Roman Empire: Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism.[4][5] Although many European leaders were "sickened" by the bloodshed by 1648,[6] religious wars continued to be waged in the post-Westphalian period until the 1710s,[2] and collective memory of the wars lasted even longer." the wars in Europe between Protestant and Catholic that raged through the 16th - 18th centuries, Christians massacring and slaughtering other Christians to decide whose God is the one true God,....... we are not talking of rejecting Homosexuality, we are talking of Christian dominated societies persecuting, torturing and in some cases murdering Homosexuals, whatever your views on homosexuality, hate and Intolerance of the sinner should have no place in your Christian faith, thats the point i was making,...... and how may i ask are the Gay Community treating you unfairly, and even if they were, what as Christians should be our response, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you and pray for those that persecute you, seems to me that "Righteous Indignation" should have no place in aChristians response to sin, but then perhaps you view Christs commandments to love your neighbour as yourself differently,....... are you seriously saying that you believe the best way God could find to re-unite Jews in israel was to initiate the Holocaust, and the Holocaust had nothing to do with a "Wicked person demonising those that had Wealth and in a minority", it had everything to do with a Christian dialogue that had persisted in Europe for centuries of anti-semitism and that culminated in the bringing to power of Hitler and the unleashing of the Hate and Intolerance that led to the Murder of millions of innocent men, women and children, if you want references for this i will give them, but it seems to me that in some way you are attempting to justify the horrific abuses and slaughter that have taken place in the name of Christianity, and as such are playing with fire, as that same evil is alive and strong today, inciting Hate and Intolerance particularly as i say in some sections of the "Church" at homosexuals, as such your arguments are dangerous and in my opinion theologically bankrupt.

Rad, don't just type ''Christian wars'' or ''Catholic persecution'' in Google. You must read and discern each one.

The Catholic church ruled. It was in power. It had wars to hold onto power. There is nothing Christian about holding onto power as they did. Christianity and government were one. I do believe one is ''insanely naive'' if they interpret wars fought to hold onto power as incriminating to the religion. It is like saying Iran going to war with America is due to Islam. We can say Iran going to war with Israel is due to 50% to Islam and 50% to land they feel was taken from Palestinians. The Catholic church did not kill rebel armies in the 'peasant war' because they believed they were GLBT. They posed a threat to their ''''reign of power'''. Martin Luther was a threat, not because His views inspired '''more sinful acts''. He was a threat because he inspired rebellion to a '''government in power'''.

When dissecting Catholicism you have to try and separate the two. The actual death toll for the '''inquisition'' and not the '''holding on to power / quelling rebellions'' is estimated at just over 3000 over 400 years. Here is an article on the Spanish inquisition where it is estimated at 1250 deaths Historians say Inquisition wasn't that bad. Also, please do a study on the Spanish inquisition. It will open your eyes to how much facts become fiction. History may not intentionally get things wrong, but people have a tendency to blur and group atrocities committed.

I isolate Oliver Cromwell's murders as this was a unique occasion in my view. It was not the typical ''Catholics quelling rebellion and holding onto power''. It was a war waged by protestants against Catholics for ''revenge''.

 

[KingJ]

hate and Intolerance of the sinner should have no place in your Christian faith, thats the point i was making,

I can '''promise'' you that if it were not for Christianity, a lot more ''GLBT sinners'' would be killed. Not, that even one is right.

and how may i ask are the Gay Community treating you unfairly

Yes. I have said why.

and even if they were, what as Christians should be our response, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you and pray for those that persecute you

Well this is a catch 22 isn't it? You are abusing scripture / teaching a half truth.

On one hand, yes. We must forgive those who persecute us. On the other, we are charged to defend our families and the innocent. Christianity makes my Christian neighbor, my family. My brother. We are to stand up for what is right.

Example: Saddam Hussein was a wicked leader. Is the Christian response A. Sit back and watch him hurt the innocent. or B. Attack him, put him on trial for his crimes and stop him hurting the innocent?

If we do nothing, we condone the atrocities committed. The British came to the call of Poland. After the war they signed the Geneva convention. The Geneva convention stipulates that those German soldiers captured, be treated the same as your soldiers. The only difference being that they be isolated. Allowed banking facilities, doctor visits, good food etc etc. The Russians did not sign the Geneva convention. I would say the British were Christian and at that time, the Russians were not.

 

[KingJ]

are you seriously saying that you believe the best way God could find to re-unite Jews in israel was to initiate the Holocaust,

No. Where did I say that?

and the Holocaust had nothing to do with a "Wicked person demonising those that had Wealth and in a minority", it had everything to do with a Christian dialogue that had persisted in Europe for centuries of anti-semitism and that culminated in the bringing to power of Hitler and the unleashing of the Hate and Intolerance that led to the Murder of millions of innocent men, women and children,

You need to do more research. The Germans were broke after WW1 and had heavy sanctions on them. Hitler knew he needed as much money as he could get to wage war successfully. The Jews were rich and a minority group. They were a simple answer to his dilemma. The fact that there was already antisemitism among many made it easier. But, no, that was not '''the'' reason.

in some way you are attempting to justify the horrific abuses and slaughter that have taken place in the name of Christianity,

Just discerning properly. Imagine I did not discern you properly?

Lets say you did charity work on weekends at an orphanage. You gave all your money to the needy. You took the worst job of taking care of the pigs. You had a good job during the week that enabled you to do this. You then approach me and say ''J, I like your sister, please put in a good word for me''. I then go to my sister and say ''Sis, my good friend who is poor, smells and is busy all week long likes you''.

We must not miss-represent scripture. We must not miss-represent anything! I don't want to be that guy God gets hold of for teaching His word falsely.

and as such are playing with fire, as that same evil is alive and strong today, inciting Hate and Intolerance particularly as i say in some sections of the "Church" at homosexuals, as such your arguments are dangerous and in my opinion theologically bankrupt.

The worst thing a homosexual has to fear from me or those at my church who utterly HATE the sin, is a bird feather dropping on their head when we come and preach. Trying to save sinners from eternal hell. And, yes, there is a million things we would rather be doing with our time. Anyone preaching to sinners, is literally devoting their time to God and that person.