No one goes to heaven!

[Rhema]

Mal 4:5 ; "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Luke 9:30; And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

(Matthew 17:12-13 KJV) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

 

[Rhema]

They aren't? Where'd they get a new body? If it's a different body it's reincarnation not resurrection.

If it's the same body it's resuscitation. (Zombies with plastic surgery. )

Jesus looked different after his resurrection, even Mary, looking in his face, could not recognize him until she heard his voice. There is also the two on the road to whom Jesus spoke. Though face to face, these also didn't recognize him. He looked different.

(1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.​

One doesn't put on the mortal again to then have it "tweaked" to be immortal. One doesn't put on the corruptible again to then have it made incorruptible. The dead ARE raised incorruptible straight away. On the living are "changed."

Changed - give in exchange, barter one thing for another (LINK).

Changed, not enhanced.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Depends on who you look to for the setting of canon and whether man is done adding or taking away. Most on TJ accept 66 books, but not everyone does, just like the different churches i.e. Catholic Bible 73, Greek Russian Orthodox 79, Ethiopian Orthodox 81 and away we go....

The canon as you know it for the New Testament was established by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in 367 AD. The canon of the Church of the (further) East was established by the Apostle Thomas during his lifetime.

The last time books were taken away occurred in the late 1880's. And I've been seeing an alarming trend to put in the Book of Enoch.

But if Jesus came preaching the Gospel (Mark 1:14) then the Gospel is what Jesus preached.

"All of history's dead are still in their graves and will stay there...",

It wasn't clear that you were focusing on the phrase "and will stay there."

I would have thought you'd see enough evidence that "once dead" doesn't mean they will necessarily "stay dead".

And in my first post, I did say, "Until the Resurrection of course."

And @Rxlx hadn't meant "will stay there forever..." since he directly said otherwise"

... and will stay there until Jesus and his angel army arrive...

Overall, though, it's been quite an interesting thread.

Rhema

 

[Butch5]

If it's the same body it's resuscitation. (Zombies with plastic surgery. )

Jesus looked different after his resurrection, even Mary, looking in his face, could not recognize him until she heard his voice. There is also the two on the road to whom Jesus spoke. Though face to face, these also didn't recognize him. He looked different.

(1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.​

One doesn't put on the mortal again to then have it "tweaked" to be immortal. One doesn't put on the corruptible again to then have it made incorruptible. The dead ARE raised incorruptible straight away. On the living are "changed."

Changed - give in exchange, barter one thing for another (LINK).

Changed, not enhanced.

Rhema

I'll have to disagree with you. A different body is reincarnation, not resurrection. It's very possible that Christ was veiled to them for whatever reason God may chosen. Jesus came out of the grave with the wounds from the cross. He told Thomas to out his hand in the wound. In 2 Cor 5 we find Paul explaining the incorruptible. He desires to put on immortality over his mortality.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I would ask, if nit this body what is raised from the dead?

 

[Rhema]

A different body is reincarnation

According to Buddhist theology, from whence reincarnation comes, a person is composed of three certain types of energy. At death, these three split apart and (bounce around until they) coalesce again, where each of the parts could come from different dead people. Once joined, these new three then reincarnate into a completely new person, thereby starting the cycle of pain once more. To the Buddhist, reincarnation is a curse.

Of course you might be using some modern(?) definition I don't know about.

It's very possible that Christ was veiled to them

And now we're just making things up.... excuses that cannot be supported either in the Lexicon or the cultural beliefs of either the Greek or Jew during the time of Jesus. The text makes no statement about any veiling at all.

(Luke 24:31 KJV) And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.​

The phrase "eyes were opened" is an idiom that means that they finally understood (cf. Eph 1:18). We need to let the idioms mean what they meant.

(Luke 24:35 KJV) And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.​

Again, as with Mary, they did not recognize him visually, but by his mannerism.

desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

The physical body is NOT a house that is from heaven. It's a house that comes from the dust of the Earth.

I would ask, if not this body what is raised from the dead?

Our soul (Greek - pusche) the you that is you inside your physical body... your sentient consciousness.

The dead return to the dust. How much of your body came from the dust of another who died millennia ago? In the Resurrection, who gets those atoms? And what of those cremated? Is God really thwarted by those who have their ashes spread? That God must go on some snipe hunt to get all those atoms back in order to resuscitate the corpse?

Rhema

And look, do you really think that ugly people want to come back ugly?

 

[Christ4Ever]

The canon as you know it for the New Testament was established by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in 367 AD. The canon of the Church of the (further) East was established by the Apostle Thomas during his lifetime.

The last time books were taken away occurred in the late 1880's. And I've been seeing an alarming trend to put in the Book of Enoch.

But if Jesus came preaching the Gospel (Mark 1:14) then the Gospel is what Jesus preached.

As I said "Depends on who you look to for the setting of canon and whether man is done adding or taking away. Most on TJ accept 66 books, but not everyone does, just like the different churches i.e. Catholic Bible 73, Greek Russian Orthodox 79, Ethiopian Orthodox 81 and away we go..."

It wasn't clear that you were focusing on the phrase "and will stay there."

Maybe it was to Rxlx to whom it was meant for???

And in my first post, I did say, "Until the Resurrection of course."

And @Rxlx hadn't meant "will stay there forever..." since he directly said otherwise"

If necessary, he can address what he said, or his understanding—or misunderstanding—of my response to him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

According to Buddhist theology, from whence reincarnation comes, a person is composed of three certain types of energy. At death, these three split apart and (bounce around until they) coalesce again, where each of the parts could come from different dead people. Once joined, these new three then reincarnate into a completely new person, thereby starting the cycle of pain once more. To the Buddhist, reincarnation is a curse.

Of course you might be using some modern(?) definition I don't know about.

We know what it means.

And now we're just making things up.... excuses that cannot be supported either in the Lexicon or the cultural beliefs of either the Greek or Jew during the time of Jesus. The text makes no statement about any veiling at all.

(Luke 24:31 KJV) And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.​

The phrase "eyes were opened" is an idiom that means that they finally understood (cf. Eph 1:18). We need to let the idioms mean what they meant.

Did you say something about making things up?

(Luke 24:35 KJV) And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.​

Again, as with Mary, they did not recognize him visually, but by his mannerism.

So you "assume" from that that He wasn't in the same body?

The physical body is NOT a house that is from heaven. It's a house that comes from the dust of the Earth.

No, the house from Heaven is the immortality that he spoke if in the same passage

Our soul (Greek - pusche) the you that is you inside your physical body... your sentient consciousness.

And there lies the problem. Platonic Dualism. The soul includes the body. The souls is the body and breath of God. Gen 2:7.

The dead return to the dust. How much of your body came from the dust of another who died millennia ago? In the Resurrection, who gets those atoms? And what of those cremated? Is God really thwarted by those who have their ashes spread? That God must go on some snipe hunt to get all those atoms back in order to resuscitate the corpse?

Red herring.

Rhema

And look, do you really think that ugly people want to come back ugly?

If they're saved I'm sure they do. Otherwise they wouldn't have gotten saved.

But, you didn't answer my question. If not this body what is raised fron tbe dead?

 

[Rhema]

We know what it means.

That it's a curse?

I guess there's always a first time, but I've never run across any Christian in conversation who understood the Buddhist nature of Reincarnation. And despite the tradition, the major principle of Reincarnation is that one returns HERE, to the Earth. This Earth.

Did you say something about making things up?

Noting a linguistic idiom found within a language is most certainly not making things up.

So you "assume" from that that He wasn't in the same body?

Someone having the same body would look the same. That's not an assumption. (Or did God give Jesus a face-lift because he was ugly?)

No, the house from Heaven is the immortality that he spoke if in the same passage

I would encourage you to read the passage a bit more closely. (Although I'm not sure why we're arguing over Paul.)

(2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved (G2647), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

One can readily see that Paul believed our "earthly house of this tabernacle" is the physical body we now have. And it dies -

G2647 καταλύω - die; decay LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon (cf. A II 3&4)​

The heavenly house will not. There is no need to use physical matter. Why does that seem to bother you?

And there lies the problem. Platonic Dualism. The soul includes the body.

No. This "problem" is an illusion. The New Testament texts DIRECTLY use the Greek word ψυχή (Psuche) to mean one's sentient consciousness. As does the LXX. Your "Platonic Dualism" dismissal is a fallacy known as Guilt by Association. Like it or not, the word ψυχή is what is written.

Red herring.

Ostrich.

But, you didn't answer my question. If not this body what is raised fron tbe dead?

Yes. I did. YOU. You are raised from the dead, into a heavenly house that has nothing to do with your current earthly house.

Rhema

 

[Butch5]

That it's a curse?

I guess there's always a first time, but I've never run across any Christian in conversation who understood the Buddhist nature of Reincarnation. And despite the tradition, the major principle of Reincarnation is that one returns HERE, to the Earth. This Earth.

Reincarnation is going through many lives and or forms

Noting a linguistic idiom found within a language is most certainly not making things up.

If in fact it's an idiom. Should I take your word for it?

Someone having the same body would look the same. That's not an assumption. (Or did God give Jesus a face-lift because he was ugly?)

Yes, they would. However, we can see today that people in the same body often aren't recognized when they shave, die their hair, etc

I would encourage you to read the passage a bit more closely. (Although I'm not sure why we're arguing over Paul.)

(2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved (G2647), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

One can readily see that Paul believed our "earthly house of this tabernacle" is the physical body we now have. And it dies -

No need. I've read it many times. The earthly house is the body. The Heavenly one is immortality. As Paul says, that mortality may be swallowed up. The mortal body will he swallowed up by immortality. Thats not getting a new body.

G2647 καταλύω - die; decay LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon (cf. A II 3&4)​

The heavenly house will not. There is no need to use physical matter. Why does that seem to bother you?

But, as we see Paul is contrasting bodies. He's contrasting states of being. Mortal vs. Immortal.

No. This "problem" is an illusion. The New Testament texts DIRECTLY use the Greek word ψυχή (Psuche) to mean one's sentient consciousness. As does the LXX. Your "Platonic Dualism" dismissal is a fallacy known as Guilt by Association. Like it or not, the word ψυχή is what is written.

Actually, the New Testament uses the word Psuche of the body in a concrete sense and life in an abstract sense. Gen 2:7, God breathed "His" breath into the man and the man "Became" a living soul. It doesn't say God put a soul into man or into a body. It says he "Became" a living soul.

But, yes, it Platonic Dualism. The idea that man is more than what we see.

Ostrich.

Still a fallacy

Yes. I did. YOU. You are raised from the dead, into a heavenly house that has nothing to do with your current earthly house.

Rhema

No, you didn't. I didn't ask "who" is raised from the dead. I asked "what" is raised from the dead. Again, if not the body, "what" is raised from the dead.

 

[KingJ]

I do wish I could find a Christian who has read the Bible enough to know that on death all thoughts perish - and therefore a dead person cannot know, feel or experience anything!

I have read the bible enough to know this is not true. What passages of scripture teach this?

People today go to Heaven or Hades when they die. Those in both, keep their memories.

All of history's dead are still in their graves

Incorrect. What scripture are you quoting?

and will stay there until Jesus and his angel army arrive at the height of Armageddon, Then he will resurrect 144,000 true Christians to help him govern Earth during the 1000 year millennium.

The 144 000 are 12 000 Jews from 12 tribes. Sealed and protected. They will preach during the tribulation.

The passage on the 144 000 is in Revelations 7 and 14. When you cross examine common theories you find that there are holes the size of craters in most. The line above is the only line that passes interrogation.

For example, your claim of them being 144 000 true Christians that will reign during the millennium.

1. Rev 7 is crystal clear that the 144 000 will be Jews. It even gives the names of the tribes.
2. The context of Rev 7 and 14 is during the great tribulation. Not the millennium.
3. How is it that only Jews can be Christians when Jesus included the gentiles?
4. If God foreknows that only 12 000 from 12 tribes will be saved, that would imply partiality. People cherry picked for heaven. AKA implying God is wicked when scripture is crystal clear that He is not.

Now I know this is a JW belief and I am sure you are one. As such you believe you need to work hard to be one of them. This belief opens up so many questions. Questions that cannot actually be answered by JW's without terribly incriminating God. The moment your belief hits a wall and can only but incriminate God, you know that you have a hole in your belief system that is the size of a crater. As God is 100% righteous in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17.

If you want to discuss further or for me to explain what I mean on JW specifically, just ask, I don't want to jump the gun if you are not up for discussion.

After the millennium Satan and his two gangs of fallen angels will be released from the pit inside Earth and allowed to travel earth trying to recruit new followers. This is shown in the pope's throne. Any new followers will be the tares who despite living with Jesus for 1000 years still harbour the possibility of being sinners. Some tares will join Satan but just when he is gloating he will be seized and tossed in the lake of fire while all his angel gangs, the demons of the Nephilim and the tares will be totally annihilated.

This is what the Bible says but I've yet to meet a minister who preaches it!

Please quote scriptures. This is not what the bible teaches.

 

[Rhema]

Reincarnation is going through many lives and or forms

So then Resurrection once into a different new heavenly body that is incorruptible and not some rehash of the old corruptible physical body is NOT Reincarnation by your own definition.

If in fact it's an idiom. Should I take your word for it?

No. Go study the phrase for yourself, and learn about idioms on your own. I already gave you one example. If you need more, go find them.

we can see today that people in the same body often aren't recognized when they shave, die their hair, etc

So Jesus lost his hair? Or it was died blue? Purple? Orange orange?

Then again, if the shroud of Turin is true, maybe Jesus was naked and Mary averted her eyes.

The mortal body will he swallowed up by immortality

Stop changing the words. The word "by" is not found in that phrase. The preposition used isn't "by" or even "up" it's ὑπό (G5259). The literal expression would be "swallowed under immortality." One of the main examples given for καταπίνω (G2666) is cities "swallowed" in an earthquake. Once that happens, there ain't no city no more. It's the same with the physical body. The overarching action is to be consumed.

I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for ὑπό which means "under." And besides, the word "body" is not even found in that phrase.

(2 Corinthians 5:4 KJV~) ... that mortality might be swallowed under life.​

It doesn't say that the Mortal Body might become immortal. Rather, Mortality itself is swallowed under life, as an earthquake swallows under a city, or as an ocean swallows under a ship. Mortality is no more. Paul makes a similar comparison in this verse:

(1 Corinthians 15:54 KJV) Death is swallowed in victory.​

But, as we see Paul is contrasting bodies. He's contrasting states of being. Mortal vs. Immortal.

Exactly, because it's not the same body. The mortal body is gone, and one receives a new immortal body.

(1 Corinthians 15:54 KJV) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed in victory.​

One might say, "SEE the corruptible body "PUTS ON" incorruption. Once more I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for ἐνδύω (G1746), where I note : I. c. acc., go into, 1. of clothes, put on,.

Butch, one takes off the "old clothes" (the corruptible body) before putting on "new clothes" the incorruptible one. One "goes into" the new body, leaving the old.

(1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

The DEAD, dead people, are raised incorruptible, not dead bodies. Their bodies are not raised at all. Dead bodies dissolve (cf. 2Co 5:1).

Gen 2:7, God breathed "His" breath into the man and the man "Became" a living soul. It doesn't say God put a soul into man or into a body. It says he "Became" a living soul.

I am aware of Jewish Dualism. But that same belief rejects the afterlife period, teaching that at death, the body is subsumed back into dust, and the animating spirit is subsumed back into God. But that's not the view taught by Jesus (or Paul). At the Resurrection, the you that is you must put on (be clothed with) an incorruptible body, not one made of Earthly dirt.

(2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.​

No, you didn't. I didn't ask "who" is raised from the dead. I asked "what" is raised from the dead. Again, if not the body, "what" is raised from the dead.

The DEAD are raised.

(1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) ... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ...​

What scripture states that Dead Bodies are raised from the dead? And who are the dead? PEOPLE. People are raised from the dead. You are raised from the dead, being composed of an immortal body and the self that is you. (If not YOU, who else?)

I answered the question. The fact that you don't like the answer is your problem.

I still get the feeling that you're somehow afraid to accept any view that your current physical body made of corruptible Earth dust that decays and dissolves has nothing to do at all with your house not made with hands (your parents) but an eternal "building" of God in the heavens.

If there is a New Heaven and a New Earth, there is a New body.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I have read the bible enough to know this is not true. What passages of scripture teach this?

(If I may be so bold....)

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

 

[KingJ]

(If I may be so bold....)

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

This verse is a popular quote from annihilationist's. Are you one?

If you are you will take that line literally. If you are not, you will not. If you read the context and do a study on the passage, you will see that there is something more to the speech style. It's a 'chiastic structure' (had to google that).

Every verse mentioning eternal punishment debunks taking it literally. Then we have teaching from Jesus in Luke 16 of the rich man in fire asking Abraham to warn his family and friends. IE He still has his memories. Some believe we all lose our memories, but Rev 6:10 shows those in heaven don't and Luke 16 those in Hades.

 

[34BillionthHumanBeing]

The only death I'm aware of is a spiritual death, i.e. sin. Sure, your physical body will wear out and it will go, but the real you will persist. When God created you, at that point, you exist, no different than God exists. The question is... Is where will you exist once the flesh is gone.

The 144,000 people are the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 each tribe who are saved during the end times.

A bit of history here:

So, Joshua is tired of fighting. He doesn't complete God's prime directive, wipe out the Canaanites. He dismantles the Canaanites as a functioning society but leaves enclaves of people and giants. These Canaanites later become the Phoenicians. Next King Solomon takes over. For a wise man, he engages in much foolishness, such as learning sorcery, creating division among the 12 tribes, and eventually becoming a tyrant. During Solomon's reign tribes Judah and Benjamin move to the south of the region. Solomon invests a great deal of time, energy and money in this region building up his legacy. This is done at the expense of the North Region, with slave labor and heavy taxation. When Solomon dies, his son takes over. He's just as bad as his father. The 10 tribes in the north plead with him to change policy and lighten up. Instead, Solomon's son doubles down and demands even more from the north. This in turn causes a split from the tribes where the Northern Kingdom establishes its independence, and the Southern Kingdom (Judah and Benajmin) continues in the splendor of Solomon's legacy.

Later the Assyrians invade the Northern Kingdom. The outcome is that the Assyrians won by conquest. However, the whereabouts of the 10 tribes is unknown. Did they flee? Were they all killed? Where they conquered and the eventually assimilated? So, the 10 tribes of the North are out of the picture, gone!

Later again, the Babylonians invade the south. They are merciful compared the Assyrians. Instead of scorch earth warfare, the Babylonians take tribes Judah and Benajmin as slaves back to Babylon. It is here over time that Talmud is authored into two version: Babylonian and Jewish. Eventually tribes Judah and Benajmin are able to leave Babylon and return back to the Southern Region where they came from. When they arrive, they discover that their cousins, the Edomites have successfully occupied the region and developed quite a civilization. This causes both conflict and opportunities for cooperation. Tribe Judah somehow manages to convince the Edomites to convert to Judaism. However, over time the Edomites remained the dominate culture and tribes Judah and Benjamin were assimilated (or "faded away" metaphorically). In the 21st century the people that live and populate the country Israel are not from the tribes of Judah or Benajmin (or the other 10 tribes). They are Edomites. Their ancestors converted to Judaism.

At this point in time the 12 tribes are "missing in action". That is until the end times where the people, whoever they are and wherever they are, realize their true identity and repent. When they repent the 12 tribes return back into the scene where God saves them. They are the 144,000.

These 144,000 are not the only people saved. You have countless millions of people prior to the end times who accepted by faith that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. These people will go to heaven. It's God's promise. God never fails on his promise.

 

[KingJ]

Rhema said:
(If I may be so bold....)

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

This verse is a popular quote from annihilationist's. Are you one?

If you are you will take that line literally. If you are not, you will not. If you read the context and do a study on the passage, you will see that there is something more to the speech style. It's a 'chiastic structure' (had to google that).

Every verse mentioning eternal punishment debunks taking it literally. Then we have teaching from Jesus in Luke 16 of the rich man in fire asking Abraham to warn his family and friends. IE He still has his memories. Some believe we all lose our memories, but Rev 6:10 shows those in heaven don't and Luke 16 those in Hades.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 displays a chiastic structure (ABBA format) like this:

A For the living know that they will die,
B but the dead know nothing;
B they have no further reward,
A and even their name is forgotten.

 

[Charlie24]

The 144 000 are 12 000 Jews from 12 tribes. Sealed and protected. They will preach during the tribulation.

The passage on the 144 000 is in Revelations 7 and 14. When you cross examine common theories you find that there are holes the size of craters in most. The line above is the only line that passes interrogation.

For example, your claim of them being 144 000 true Christians that will reign during the millennium.

The JW's I've talked to claim the 144,000 in Rev. 7, which are Jews, are not the same 144,000 of Rev. 14, which are JW's.

How these folks can believe this is bewildering!

 

[B-A-C]

Let us say no old testament saints went to heaven. John 3:13;
But then Jesus made a way for people to go heaven after He died on the cross.

For sake of argument, let's say all the saint who have died since then go directly to heaven.
Now let's the tribulation starts tomorrow, and it lasts for seven years. Then we have the millennial reign. 1,000 years.
Then we have Satan let loose again .. for a "season", however long that is.

But finally, the New Jerusalem comes down "out of" heaven. Jesus and the Father will dwell there.
And we will dwell with them in the New Jerusalem, not in heaven.

I don't know when the tribulation will start, some say it has already started. ( If that's the case, so much for
knowing when Jesus will return ) But whenever it is, roughly 1007 years or so, whoever is in heaven now
will be moved to a more permanent location in the New Jerusalem.

 

[th1bill]

Let us say no old testament saints went to heaven. John 3:13;
But then Jesus made a way for people to go heaven after He died on the cross.

For sake of argument, let's say all the saint who have died since then go directly to heaven.
Now let's the tribulation starts tomorrow, and it lasts for seven years. Then we have the millennial reign. 1,000 years.
Then we have Satan let loose again .. for a "season", however long that is.

But finally, the New Jerusalem comes down "out of" heaven. Jesus and the Father will dwell there.
And we will dwell with them in the New Jerusalem, not in heaven.

I don't know when the tribulation will start, some say it has already started. ( If that's the case, so much for
knowing when Jesus will return ) But whenever it is, roughly 1007 years or so, whoever is in heaven now
will be moved to a more permanent location in the New Jerusalem.

Good food for thought. It beats the living snot out of me trying to understand these modern-day scholars teaching their thoughts and imaginings. As nearly as I can learn from the notes our Elohim left us, the Great White Throne is found in Heaven and every Lost Person will appear there to be judged for their deeds.

 

[Butch5]

Let us say no old testament saints went to heaven. John 3:13;
But then Jesus made a way for people to go heaven after He died on the cross.

For sake of argument, let's say all the saint who have died since then go directly to heaven.
Now let's the tribulation starts tomorrow, and it lasts for seven years. Then we have the millennial reign. 1,000 years.
Then we have Satan let loose again .. for a "season", however long that is.

But finally, the New Jerusalem comes down "out of" heaven. Jesus and the Father will dwell there.
And we will dwell with them in the New Jerusalem, not in heaven.

I don't know when the tribulation will start, some say it has already started. ( If that's the case, so much for
knowing when Jesus will return ) But whenever it is, roughly 1007 years or so, whoever is in heaven now
will be moved to a more permanent location in the New Jerusalem.

There's an issue here. John wrote that about 60 years after Jesus resurrected. So, 60 years after the Resurrection still no one had gone into Heaven. That means the apostles didn't go there.

Everything works out fine if we jettison the Immortal Soul doctrine.

 

[B-A-C]

There's an issue here. John wrote that about 60 years after Jesus resurrected. So, 60 years after the Resurrection still no one had gone into Heaven. That means the apostles didn't go there.

You may be right, but was he writing "current events" or was he writing what Jesus said a few decades earlier?