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Why Choose the Church over the Bible

Discuss with an atheist hat has no knowledge of God that serves the wisdom of this world?

There are many athiests who are ex-Christians. Their sites are full of biased, illogical Creator and bible bashing posts. It is a nice mission field for a Christian who has a good grasp of scripture.

How is rightly dividing the two kinds of wisdom a cop out?

This is sadly not what is happening. One party is exposed for misrepresenting God and their play is to call the other stupid for asking rational and logical questions.

The wisdom that comes from above is not of us. Christ in us to both give to us his understanding as knowledge.

It comes from us and God. God gave us all working brains to be used and a knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:22.

The Dunning-Kruger effect can be compared to a childish bias children smarter than Parents. No fool like an old fool. Low-ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their capabilities.

Atheists have used this and other to keep face when they support something like evolution. It is sad to see a Christian insinuate it of another when the flow of conversation was like this (@BUTCH):

Me - Iro Jesus and the cross. Punishing anyone for sin they did not commit is evil and unjust.
Butch - God did not punish Jesus,
Me - Tell me what word you want to use for God sending Him to the cross to suffer and die at the hands of the devil and wicked people, as a Lamb to the slaughter.
Butch - God did not send Jesus
Me - God created all, impregnated Mary and planned the sacrifice of Jesus before the very foundations of the earth Eph 1:4, He most certainly did send Him.
Butch - God did not kill Jesus, the devil did.
Me - Correct, but that does not exonerate God. If I send my daughter to pay a gambling debt I owe to a Mexican drug cartel, does that mean I am not guilty of her death? Would that make God righteous, just and good?
Butch - Your premise is false, God did not punish Jesus
Me - I repeat my first line changing the word 'punish' to 'paying a debt God created'.
Butch - That is an argument to my premise
Me - You have created a sub premise to my original statement line / premise and I have answered it.
Butch - Google the DK effect, you guilty of it.

Now you are up to speed :).

Christ IQ is out of this world.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children

Sure, but as the scripture explains, He deals with us on our level. We cannot reject knowledge we have not received and understood.
 
There are many athiests who are ex-Christians. Their sites are full of biased, illogical Creator and bible bashing posts. It is a nice mission field for a Christian who has a good grasp of scripture.
I would not call them ex- Christians. They as antichrists went out from us because they never were Christians.
 
Going to heaven is pagan theology right from Babel.

It is pushed by practically ever preacher, pastor or minister. But that does not make it correct.

The Bibel quite clearly says Jesus is coming back to rule Earth.
“Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption.’ “This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” ’ (Act 2:29-35 NRSVue)

Jesus Christ arose from the grave, ascended to the Father, sitting at his right hand on the throne. It is written "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool". *Christ is reigning from the throne today and will continue until "the last day".

So, Christ is reigning from heaven now over his people, the Davidic king over God's people. Paul then tells us what happens on "the last day", the day of resurrection and judgment:

"Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." (1Co 15:24-25 NRSVue)

That is clear that Christ ascending to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father happened in the 1st century. So, Christ has been reigning since the 1st century, is reigning today, and on "the last day", still future, he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father.
 
This is a cop out and more evidence of vanity. You remind me of our other member who claimed he had 165 IQ and that we were not qualified to debate him.

I have discussed with atheists for years. I have heard this kind of cop out many times. The reality is that you 'think' that by using 'fancy' words, trying to sound 'smart' or Googling the 'Dunning Kruger effect', it helps better your argument. Sometimes it does, mostly it does not.
I'm guessing you didn't read it because it's not about intelligence. It's about competence.
I have presented you with painfully true, rational and logical arguments that every person on this planet with a working brain will conclude and agree with. You are living on your own cloud and appearing to have a strong case of ostrich syndrome. Come into the light and defend your beliefs with rational arguments. Start with ''No, KingJ, God is not evil because of A, B and C''.
I've defended my beliefs. You're upset because I won't engage with your hypothetical scenario, the idea that God punished Jesus. In all of my years on forums I have never come across a believer who claimed that God punished Himself. You make the claim that if God punished and innocent one, He would be unjust. To avoid this, you claim God punished Himself. Newsflash, God is an innocent one. God hasn't committed any sin.
In the last thread you were cringe with your 'premise' argument. Thinking my original line and premise was an 'argument' to your 'sub premise'. I have not discussed with someone like you in a while. I can count 4-5 attempts like this from you to keep face. You really seem unable and unwilling to deal with the accusations of your belief.
These continued nonsensical claims do nothing to further your position. As I've said repeatedly, your argument in based on a false premise. That false premise is that God is the one who punished Jesus. However, if you did some research into the history of your faith, you'd find out that what you believe, Penal substitution, is a Reformation doctrine and not a Biblical doctrine. Your repeated refusal to address the flawed premise speaks volumes to everyone here. As I've said several times now, when you're ready to address it, let me know.
 
They are false teachings, I agree. @Butch5 proposes that his reading is accurate and we must all follow him.

What heretics miss is the fact that scripture has a very simple inbuilt acid test for heresy. If any teaching 1. Incriminates God, 2. Mocks Jesus and 3. Undermines the cross, it is heresy that according to scripture is not up for debate. Whatever doctrine is taught needs to ensure that 1, 2 and 3 are not ticked.

Job says in Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do what is evil and pervert justice. David says in Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways. John says 1 John 1:5 God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Paul explains that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice Heb 10:14-24.
And yet you remove His glory. Have you ever even read the context of job 34:12?
Now, when you interrogate Butch's beliefs you find the following:
Nonsense.
1. Annihilationism - This proposes there is no true free will. This Incriminates God as no free will is evil. Imagine saying to a spouse that if they don't marry you they will be burnt alive.
I've addressed this in many threads
2. No heaven for saints - This mocks Jesus and undermines the cross. Imagine saying to a young child who just died as a martyr for Jesus that Jesus does not welcome them into His house.
more nonsense. However, your defense seems to be your opinion.
3. No Trinity - This ticks all three and a fourth in that it mocks the Holy Spirit.
More nonsense. However, again, your position robs God of His glory
A - Having someone else punished for a debt you created is unjust and evil.

B - 2.4 billion people worshiping Jesus. The Holy Spirit must be terrible at His one job. Exo 34:14 is clear that nobody must worship anyone other than God.

C - How could Jesus be a worthy sacrifice if all except for God have sinned?

Now, to get Butch or any other person that agrees with the above to provide rational explanations for alternative conclusions is virtually mission impossible. That to me is clear evidence that you are dealing with false teachers who are more concerned with people agreeing with them for vanity or whatever other reasons over actually properly representing God and Jesus to the lost. IE Doing their 'one' job.
I've addressed these issues many times. The problem is that you read what is said through your erroneous beliefs.
Imagine standing before God of the universe one day and being guilty of completely and utterly failing at your ''one'' job of properly representing Him to the lost He loves and died for.
He'll go easy one you!
 
Well Butch, that went sideways really fast, didn't it.

To address your OP, I would suggest that the human heart (the fallen human heart), has an overwhelming drive/desire to belong. This is why the practice of "dis-fellowship" is so effective in cults like the JWs and Mormons, and ever so present in the continued Catholic-Protestant conflict. You might find the Philadelphia Bible Riots (LINK) to be an interesting read. It didn't matter that neither side actually ever read the Bible, they just wanted the version of the group to whom they belonged to be validated.

The Catholics were also behind the removal of the Bible from the US public school system in the 60's. But by then, of course, the Parochial (Catholic) School system was in place.

In addition, your mention of the Dunning-Kruger Effect is also a cause célèbre for the embrace of Church Doctrine. Unlike those suffering from DKE, many people realize they don't have either the necessary critical thinking skills or the necessary education to make a substantive decision about what scripture means, and so seek solace from a group of people who declare themselves to have figured it out, whether it be a convocation of Bishops, or a "simple pastor" who suffers from such an advanced case of NPD that each and every word uttered is replete with Convincing Speech, based upon an internal nearly-divine belief that they absolutely know they are always RIGHT. (It would be interesting to see the overlap of DKE with NPD.)

While the Need to Belong comes from the Fall, the Need to Be RIGHT is cultivated in the American School System (and I have no reason to believe otherwise about the rest of the world).

In his book How Children Fail (LINK) John Holt describes the classroom "biome" that worships the "right" answer (like having five physical senses), and rarely cultivates the skills necessary for critical thinking. Rather, school indoctrinates the kids into playing the game of "AnswerLand." The teacher always has the right answer, one must seek that right answer, and one is constantly tested to show that the teacher is always right. If nothing else, I would encourage everyone to read the synopsis of the book from the link I provided above. I had four children go through the exact same elementary school system, and every two years had to go in and educate their classroom teacher (2nd or 3rd grade I don't remember) why the answer "Five" is wrong. And while each time the same teacher truly agreed with me, she just could NOT bring herself to change what was taught because of AUTHORITY.

And to be clear, your OP is about Ecclesiastical Authority, the second most important Doctrine after that of Soteriolgy.

(Rabbit trail warning...) From what I've seen, the Christian Church has three major divisions based upon the two most important doctrines - that of Soteriology and Ecclesiastical Authority; and these would be the Catholic Church (whether Roman or Orthodox), the Protestant Church (having a myriad of denominations typically bolstered by a seminary), and the Pentecostal Church (a very loose collection of personages who have had true supernatural experiences, but not necessarily the intelligence to link these with the appropriate scriptural passages).

Over the centuries, Ecclesiastical Authority for the Catholic has always been vested in the Church Fathers (the living ones more so than the dead ones, even if what they wrote was later declared to be scripture). When Martin Luther sought to remove the Ecclesiastical Authority of the Pope, he had nothing left but the Bible. Hence Sola Scriptura was born. But in translating the Bible into German, his purpose wasn't so that each and every man could read the Bible for himself and then decide what was true, but rather that the common folk could read the Bible (in German) and SEE that he, Martin Luther, was RIGHT. Luther's Big Mistake was that he just could not conceive that anybody else could arrive at a different conclusion than he about what scripture meant. This, of course, led to the Protestant Heresy of every Tom, **** and Stupid making up their own truths by being left to their own interpretation machine (their brain) when reading the Bible (and typically a poorly translated Bible at that). With the Pentecostal Church, I am truly vexed. There are some with whom the Holy Spirit literally talks. But what to do when this same Holy Spirit (supposedly) teaches different things to different people? I'm tempted to say "I am perplexed," but I doubt that anyone would comprehend the reference.

One last comment about why a person would be more inclined to succumb to church doctrine rather than scripture, is that Martin Luther changed the nature of Salvation to "Being Right" as opposed to "Sacramental Participation" or even "Being Loving." This would mean that when a person does read what is actually written, and does have a brain to see that it conflicts with the traditional doctrines of their church, then what? One is faced with the very real possibility that one just might not be saved !! And that's just scary. To avoid this, it's easier to deny the truth that is written all along the page and say, well I must be reading this wrong, and instead seek the comfort of a salvation that was given them by their church and church doctrine. In a way, this hearkens back to the book "How Children Fail" because the school system cultivates an unease about not knowing (the right answer). Not many people are comfortable with saying I don't know and that's okay.

I was hoping you'd get a bit more substantive answers from the peanut gallery, but I shall need to remain comfortable with being disappointed.

Rhema

I don't know and that's okay
My priest will tell me anyway
Sound off,
One two....
You're spot on. I didn't really expect anyone to engage seriously. I do think a lot of it comes from people feeling insure about their ability to grapple with the text. It's easier to let the pastor study and learn from him. I was guilty of this at one time and as a result was being led into Calvinism. It was listening to the Scriptures on an iPod that showed me that what the pastors were teaching was wrong. When I was faced with the dilemma, I chose the Scriptures over the doctrines of the Church and of men.
 
The problem with stupid people is that they're too stupid to know they're stupid?

(I'd make millions on the poster.)
That's the effect. People who are not competent in an area often don't know that they are incompetent because they lack the things necessary to be competent. For instance, I used to believe in Penal Atonement. However, after I began to study the early church and found that there were two models of the Atonement that preceded Penal Atonement I went back and studied up on the original model. I found that one to be much more in line with Scripture and it didn't have the contradictions that the Penal model suffers from. But, you've got to be open to that stuff or you'll never know
 
This card that you (165IQ) and @BUTCH (DK accusation) like to play is nothing more than an attempt to keep face when you find yourself in a hole with nowhere to go.

If any of you were able to provide logical, rational, point form rebuttals, I might not be lmao at the irony of this ;) .

Your replies are mostly:

1. Moving goal posts
2. Much ado about nothing emotional rants
3. Clear evasion, ostrich syndrome level
4. Rabbit trails

It seems you *three have never done an exam. Question 1A, 1B, 1C, Answer 1A, 1B, 1C.

You guys remind me of those kids who troll exam questions. ''Maths question - Find x in the equation''. You proceed to draw a line to the middle of the page where you created a treasure chest.
Your argument: God is unjust if He punishes and innocent one. That's your argument. My response, again, God did not punish Jesus. Your argument is based on a false premise. That premise is that God MUST punish someone for sin.
 
Those who know the basics of interpretation, understand that you have to read verses, statements in the scripture, in their context. Also, it is common knowledge among students of the Bible, that comparing scripture with scripture is required. With that in mind, check 4 passages:

"The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering such things about him, and the chief priests and Pharisees sent temple police to arrest him. Jesus then said, 'I will be with you a little while longer, and then I am going to him who sent me. You will search for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.'” (John 7:32-34 NRSV) *The "you" is clearly referring to the Christ-rejectors, the unbelieving Jews.

Jesus made clear that the Christ rejecting, Jewish leaders will not be able to go to heaven. Then in the next chapter -

"Then they said to him, 'Where is your Father?' Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.' He spoke these words while he was teaching in the treasury of the temple, but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. Again he said to them, 'I am going away, and you will search for me, but you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.'” (John 8:19-21 NRSV) *Those who reject Christ will die in their sins.

Jesus again told the Christ rejecting Jews that they will die in their sins and cannot go where he is going, which is heaven. But later Jesus is addressing a different group of people -

"Little children, I am with you only a little longer. You will look for me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.' Simon Peter said to him, 'Lord, where are you going?' Jesus answered, 'Where I am going, you cannot follow me now; but you will follow afterward.'” (John 13:33-36 NRSV)

Jesus is speaking to his disciples, the elect, those who are believing and he calls them "Little children". Between that first statement "Where I am going, you cannot come" and the second statement "Where I am going, you cannot follow me NOW; but you will FOLLOW AFTERWARD" is the period of spreading the gospel, making disciples of all nations, and then at some point apostles and the elect will die and then FOLLOW AFTERWARD, to heaven where they will be with their Lord.

That is taking the explicit statements of Jesus, and reading them IN CONTEXT. There is a difference when Jesus is speaking to the Christ-rejecting Jews; and when he is speaking to his disciples, those believing in him.

"In Isaiah chapter 55, the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, is speaking, v5; and He says:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there until they have watered the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isa 55:10-11 NRSV)

If I am giving God's word as written, I believe it is a sure principle and guarantee that God the Holy Spirit will apply it to the elect, and they will believe. I believe it is best this way, ignoring those who either are ignorant of hermeneutics, or are lacking in reading comprehension or maybe are wolves in sheep's clothing.
You're giving God's word as written? You wouldn't be inserting any assumptions into that word, would you? If the disciples were going to go to Heaven later, why did Jesus say He would come back so they could be with Him. If what you said is correct, then they would have been with Him long before He would ever come back. Your interpretation makes Jesus statement kind of wrong, doesn't it?

I would also ask, aren't you assuming that dead people are alive if when they died, they would go and be with Jesus? I don't believe one could make a case from Scripture that the dead are alive. One wonders why then are they called the dead?

Another way to understand John 13:33-36can be found here in post 37
 
Your argument: God is unjust if He punishes and innocent one. That's your argument. My response, again, God did not punish Jesus. Your argument is based on a false premise. That premise is that God MUST punish someone for sin.

Well, yes, is it not a 'duh' fact that a just Being would only punish someone for their sin? Or that a sinner deserves a punishment? What am I missing?

Is there some way a judge can be called 'just' for giving the death penalty to an innocent person? Not punishing a sinner?

God has not given us the knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:22 and working brains to discern good and evil Heb 2:7?
 
I've addressed this in many threads

You have not addressed the line I typed.

more nonsense. However, your defense seems to be your opinion.

More nonsense. However, again, your position robs God of His glory

This is more evasion, when does it stop? I am so tired of chasing you around trees. Where is the rebuttal to the actual lines typed?

I've addressed these issues many times. The problem is that you read what is said through your erroneous beliefs.

You have not dealt with them, no. Moving the goal posts and or saying 'nonsense' is not dealing with them.

He'll go easy one you!

David + John + Paul + Job = God is 100000% good, righteous and just.

KingJ = God is 100000% good, righteous and just.

Butch = God is good (cough cough). Three beliefs I teach imply that He is unjust, sadistic and evil. But He is God, so He can be, we must still serve Him despite what our working brains conclude.

---------------------

We need to be very careful on what we teach about God. If we look at Greek mythology as an example, we find that people did not respect or desire to serve gods as they were a mix of good and evil. Gods on our level. Christians serve God not because He is ''''God''''. We serve Him because He is good, righteous and just! Very important to get that right. A Christian has to explain to the unsaved, anything that appears to taint God. Correctly presenting God to the lost is our one job 2 Cor 5:20.
 
You make the claim that if God punished and innocent one, He would be unjust.

Yes. Is that not a 'duh' fact? What am I missing?

To avoid this, you claim God punished Himself.

Yes and gave the example of parents committing to pain in childbirth.

Newsflash, God is an innocent one. God hasn't committed any sin.

With your belief how? Dying to hear you explain this in a logical and rational manner.

That false premise is that God is the one who punished Jesus.

Here we go again. I am so dizzy from following you around these trees you create. God sent Jesus as a Lamb to the slaughter. How is that not punishing Him?

However, if you did some research into the history of your faith, you'd find out that what you believe, Penal substitution, is a Reformation doctrine and not a Biblical doctrine.

You are creating a rabbit trail and moving the goal posts. Penal atonement simply means Jesus's death paid the penalty for our sin. He was punished so that we did not have to be punished. That is exactly what scripture teaches. I assume by saying its not biblical you believe in 'ransom' atonement. Which is simply a case of tomato, tomaato!! Jesus choosing to pay the ransom and be punished in our stead. You are creating a rabbit trail and moving the goal posts. Why is it so much to ask that you simply address the extremely sane and simple point made?

Your repeated refusal to address the flawed premise speaks volumes to everyone here. As I've said several times now, when you're ready to address it, let me know.

Well in your three posts to me above, you have raised two to be addressed. I have addressed both. Will you now properly address my lines to you in a logical, non blurry manner? Accusation 1A, Answer 1A, Accusation 1B, Answer 1B.
 
I would not call them ex- Christians. They as antichrists went out from us because they never were Christians.

Ooh, I don't agree with you at all. 1 John 2:19 does not teach that we give up on those that leave the church.

It is very easy for anyone of us to get upset with God and take a break from Christianity. That is when we need our loving brothers and sisters in Christ the most.
 
Well, yes, is it not a 'duh' fact that a just Being would only punish someone for their sin? Or that a sinner deserves a punishment? What am I missing?
Mercy.
Grace.
Forgiveness.
 
Penal atonement simply means Jesus's death paid the penalty for our sin.
Where did Jesus teach this?

I know you teach this.
I know Paul in his later ministry taught this.
But where did Jesus teach this?

Perhaps I should rephrase. Where do you think Jesus taught such a thing?

Kindly,
Rhema
 
This card that you (165IQ) and @BUTCH (DK accusation) like to play is nothing more than an attempt to keep face when you find yourself in a hole with nowhere to go.
If you were honorable, you'd reply to post #52.

 
You're giving God's word as written?
To be fair, he did say "If".
If I am giving God's word as written, ...
But granted, it's a mighty big IF.

From what I gather, Dylan owns an extensive library of Christian commentary, possibly as many books as my seminary has, and I am quite sure he has read them all. I mean he even knows the word "hermeneutics".

That said (and from what I've read of his posts), I'm not sure he can see "God's word as written" without his vision being clouded by all these books. And this might touch on yet another point salient to the OP.

In the attempt to find the truth of what is written in scripture, there are those who seek out the council of men - book after book after book of commentary by "learned and revered" Christian scholars (insert list of your choice); innumerable authors who have their own ideas about what scripture says; dumping all of this into one's brain to where what is actually written in scripture can no longer be seen, like the proverbial stone wall covered by impenetrable ivy. The castle of Sleeping Beauty ensconced by an impenetrable thicket of thorns. An accretion of barnacles on the ship of wisdom.

At some point you have been blessed with the awareness that not all said about Jesus IS Jesus. That not all being said about Truth IS Truth. And instead of trying to work your way through the maze, have, instead, climbed up on the top of the wall to find the way out, no longer being buffeted and blown this way and that way by every wind of commentary.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (didaskalia - teaching, instruction), by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;​
- Ephesians 4:14 KJV

If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:​
- Ephesians 4:21 KJV

I need not make commentary on the wisdom found here in chapter four, except for wondering why it had needed to be written to begin with - as the truth is in Jesus - save that many have dispensed with the teachings of Jesus, forsaking the Synoptic Gospels, having supplanted them with the words of Paul and others to the point of having lost their first love of the Gospel message that Jesus preached, to wit, the Forgiveness granted by the Father through Repentance.

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,​
- Mark 1:14 KJV

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached.

In Agape,
Rhema
 
God sent Jesus as a Lamb to the slaughter.
God sent Jesus as a Light to the World.

What the World did to him is on their heads.

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But I as an innocent lamb led to the slaughter, knew not: against me they devised an evil device, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us utterly destroy him from off the land of the living, and let his name not be remembered any more.​
- Jeremiah 11:19
 
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