1 Corinthians 6:9-10

[TaylorDonBarret]

What a horrible gift to give someone, to give them such a knowledge of the truth, but to not give them the new birth, to not give them a new heart, a heart of flesh and to not renew their mind so that they could do anything with this knowledge of the truth. That would be like giving a pig a brand new pig suit….

What do you think the chances of him keeping it clean are? If the Lord want's to do that to a person… well that's his prerogative, I don't normally make a habit of questioning what God does…. but man, I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. And it kind of seems to me to make God out to be kind of monstrous to suggest that he would do that to someone, but perhaps there is a time and a place for that too. Judas may be such an example, idk

Sometimes i think that in our esteeming of God's sovereignty we underestimate the awesomeness of his creation. what i mean by saying that is that we humans are made in the image of God, and we are God's greatest creation. While God does indeed know everything and control everything, i think He has given us much more power over our own destiny than we often give ourselves credit for. I do not want to say that we can make it to Heaven on our own, of course that is a gift from God that we can not attain, but I think there is an unexplainable symbiotic relationship going on in the salvation process; which requires two willing parties for the entire duration. I think God allows us to either accept or reject Him, even though He ultimately decides who does accept or reject Him. I think this is unexplainable in terms of Calvinism or Arminianism, but is a great mystery. I think there God will grant saving faith and repentance to anyone who desires it, if even for a season, and will allow them to continue on in faith and repentance for as long as they strive for it. God's mercy and grace may cover many periods of rebellion, but eventually if a person who was granted faith and repentance keeps on rejecting it, i think it will be taken away. I do not think that this is a neat, tidy, logical, easily explainable thing; but a mystery.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

God's mercy and grace may cover many periods of rebellion, but eventually if a person who was granted faith and repentance keeps on rejecting it, i think it will be taken away. I do not think that this is a neat, tidy, logical, easily explainable thing; but a mystery.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
This foundation has already been finished and what we are doing
is acknowledging through the gift of faith the grace that laid that foundation.
We will fall on that rock or that rock will fall on us.
The work God demands is that we believe on the one whom God sent.
If we believe we should conduct ourselves accordingly.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
There is a place for works and the other things but they are not the foundation,they are independant from the foundation or being saved.
Some works are more noble than others.

1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it
is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
Our works (after salvation) will be tested.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You can suffer loss and still be saved so it seems it's not black and white.
You can also reap rewards for more noble things.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."
Hebrews 10:26

Nearly all of the parables that Jesus told were about works. Those accepted by the king are those who fed Him and clothed Him, those rejected by the king are those who did not feed Him or clothe Him, etc.

"Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in Heaven will enter"

Why do these people who call Jesus Lord (who believe that Jesus is Lord) not enter Heaven?

"Depart from me you workers of lawlessness"

Jesus does not tell them "Depart from me because you never truly, really, completely, totally believed in me"

No, He tells them to depart because they worked lawlessness.

Anyone who practices sin practices lawlessness. Sin is lawlesslness. (1 John 3:4)

So why does Jesus tell these people who call Him Lord to go to Hell? Not because they didnt truly believe in Him, but because they practiced sin.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus does not tell them "Depart from me because you never truly, really, completely, totally believed in me"

Faith without works is dead.

There is no way possible someone can know the Lord unless the Lord also knew them. Fellowship is a two way street.

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

There is no way possible someone can know the Lord unless the Lord also knew them. Fellowship is a two way street.

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

I agree 100%

 

[KingJ]

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

So this passage explicitly states that certain groups of people will not be saved (they will not enter the kingdom of God). The most common interpretation is that, of course, anyone who repents of these and believes in Jesus will be saved. And, most people would agree, no one is going to achieve a perfect repentance, there is grace that applies to those who struggle and fall into sin. The important thing is the faith, the sincerity of the repentance, the confession of sin to God, and the striving for sinless perfection.

However, with the way the church is going, more and more people are going to believe that homosexuality and gay marriage is ok. There are already churches out there that condone gay marriage and have gay marriage ceremonies in their facilities. There are already people out there who believe in Jesus Christ, who go to church, who pray, who give to charity, who generally live a good life (by human standards) and even have some form of 'repentance' from all other forms of sin other than their homosexuality.

This leads us to a question: is there any chance that God will welcome such people into His kingdom? When this scripture clearly says that the homosexual will not enter?

What are your thoughts.

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, It is very interesting that Paul says the underlined. He wants us to take this verse seriously. What stands out for me is two things. 1. Notice he says idolaters, adulterers and not someone who once upon a time committed adultery. He is clearly talking of those in unrepentant sin. Vs 11 is also clear on this where he says ''that is what some of you were''. 2. He does not mention those who tell white lies. Those who feed their kids too much. Those who backbite. Those who curse.

Now I can't help but read this verse with Rom 7:15. When Paul mentions he sins and hates it, is he referring to the sins above? Is he suggesting he is still murdering? Of course not. I am not Catholic, but what we have here is a very strong case for mortal and venial sins.

All sin is sin, but some sin shows we are closer to loving darkness. Paul mentioned them here. That is what I take from this.

 

[RJ]

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, It is very interesting that Paul says the underlined. He wants us to take this verse seriously. What stands out for me is two things. 1. Notice he says idolaters, adulterers and not someone who once upon a time committed adultery. He is clearly talking of those in unrepentant sin. Vs 11 is also clear on this where he says ''that is what some of you were''. 2. He does not mention those who tell white lies. Those who feed their kids too much. Those who backbite. Those who curse.
Now I can't help but read this verse with Rom 7:15. When Paul mentions he sins and hates it, is he referring to the sins above? Is he suggesting he is still murdering? Of course not. I am not Catholic, but what we have here is a very strong case for mortal and venial sins.

Agreed, you are right! In Hebrews 10:26, the key to the verse is : "if we deliberately continue sinning" Paul is talking about unbelievers, those who are unrepentant and continue to willfully sin. There is nothing in scripture that says a believer will never sin again, but being repentant, it does. Because of our sin, we ourselves can not be righteous, but God credits us with righteousness because the one who is in us is! Paul, again, says it best in Romans 8:1.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, It is very interesting that Paul says the underlined. He wants us to take this verse seriously. What stands out for me is two things. 1. Notice he says idolaters, adulterers and not someone who once upon a time committed adultery. He is clearly talking of those in unrepentant sin. Vs 11 is also clear on this where he says ''that is what some of you were''. 2. He does not mention those who tell white lies. Those who feed their kids too much. Those who backbite. Those who curse.

Now I can't help but read this verse with Rom 7:15. When Paul mentions he sins and hates it, is he referring to the sins above? Is he suggesting he is still murdering? Of course not. I am not Catholic, but what we have here is a very strong case for mortal and venial sins.

All sin is sin, but some sin shows we are closer to loving darkness. Paul mentioned them here. That is what I take from this.

I agree with your assessment

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Agreed, you are right! In Hebrews 10:26, the key to the verse is : "if we deliberately continue sinning" Paul is talking about unbelievers, those who are unrepentant and continue to willfully sin. .

The Holy Spirit, through Paul, is talking about ANYONE who 'deliberately continues sinning'.

 

[RJ]

Agreed, you are right! In Hebrews 10:26, the key to the verse is : "if we deliberately continue sinning" Paul is talking about unbelievers, those who are unrepentant and continue to willfully sin. There is nothing in scripture that says a believer will never sin again, but being repentant, it does. Because of our sin, we ourselves can not be righteous, but God credits us with righteousness because the one who is in us is! Paul, again, says it best in Romans 8:1.

@KingJ , To clarify, of course the Hebrews 10:26 verse is only talking to believers about unbelievers, for how is it possible to be a believer, with Christ inside you and you still "deliberately" sin. A person who willfully sins is no Born Again Christian. Deliberately here = unrepentant!

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ , To clarify, of course the Hebrews 10:26 verse is only talking to believers about unbelievers, for how is it possible to be a believer, with Christ inside you and you still "deliberately" sin. A person who willfully sins is no Born Again Christian. Deliberately here = unrepentant!

Yes agreed.

You, I and Taylor can all agree that someone who continues in a mortal sin is en route to hell. Whether I choose to believe the saved shipwreck their salvation or as you do, they were never truly saved. We both ironically believe the same thing.

 

[RJ]

ou, I and Taylor can all agree that someone who continues in a mortal sin is en route to hell. Whether I choose to believe the saved shipwreck their salvation or as you do, they were never truly saved. We both ironically believe the same thing.

I think I got your point?!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

@KingJ , To clarify, of course the Hebrews 10:26 verse is only talking to believers about unbelievers, for how is it possible to be a believer, with Christ inside you and you still "deliberately" sin. A person who willfully sins is no Born Again Christian. Deliberately here = unrepentant!

it is indeed possible for someone to deliberately sin while they have Christ living inside of them. look at what King David did with Bathsheba, and what Peter did with the circumcision sect. or just look at your own life. how many times in the past month alone have you intentionally sinned and had to ask forgiveness? if you say none, then you lie or are deceived.

 

[Curtis]

it is indeed possible for someone to deliberately sin while they have Christ living inside of them. look at what King David did with Bathsheba, and what Peter did with the circumcision sect. or just look at your own life. how many times in the past month alone have you intentionally sinned and had to ask forgiveness? if you say none, then you lie or are deceived.

King David was not a born again Christian. He was anointed by the Spirit of God that resided on the outside. A Christian can "intentionally" sin but he can not "continue" in sin as that goes completely against his new nature which is Jesus Christ.

1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (ESV)

 

[Travis]

King David was not a born again Christian

Tangential Comment:

Were old Testament Christians regenerated by the Holy Ghost? Can there be faith without regeneration?

Why was Jesus giving Nicodemus such a hard time for not knowing these things?

Don't you hate it when people just ask a bunch of questions, but don't say anything else?

Blessings?

Travis

 

[Curtis]

Tangential Comment:

Were old Testament Christians regenerated by the Holy Ghost? Can there be faith without regeneration?

Why was Jesus giving Nicodemus such a hard time for not knowing these things?

Don't you hate it when people just ask a bunch of questions, but don't say anything else?

Blessings?

Travis

No body was born again until Jesus after sat down on the right hand of God after his resurrection, in which he sent the Holy Spirit who just happens to be the main "agent" in bringing about the new birth. If people could be born again before Jesus Christ was crucified, then there would be no purpose for Jesus to die!

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Curtis]

Were old Testament Christians regenerated by the Holy Ghost? Can there be faith without regeneration?

You do not have to born again for "faith" to work. If that was true then how could anybody be saved as nobody is "born again" until after they use "faith" to get saved?
Faith worked the exact same way in the Old Testament as it does in the New Testament.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

No body was born again until Jesus after sat down on the right hand of God after his resurrection, in which he sent the Holy Spirit who just happens to be the main "agent" in bringing about the new birth. If people could be born again before Jesus Christ was crucified, then there would be no purpose for Jesus to die!

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

it is my opinion that God applied the atonement of Christ retroactively to a select few of specially selected prophets during the old testament times in order to use them for the sake of the children of Israel.

the bible says that King David had The Holy Spirit from the time he was as a child anointed to be future king all the way until his death.

and Jesus seems to say here in John 3 that the prophets were born of the spirit, born again, just like we are today.


"Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’ The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus replied, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you don’t understand these things? I tell you the solemn truth, we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony."

 

[Curtis]

it is my opinion that God applied the atonement of Christ retroactively to a select few of specially selected prophets during the old testament times in order to use them for the sake of the children of Israel.

the bible says that King David had The Holy Spirit from the time he was as a child anointed to be future king all the way until his death.

and Jesus seems to say here in John 3 that the prophets were born of the spirit, born again, just like we are today.


"Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’ The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus replied, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you don’t understand these things? I tell you the solemn truth, we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony."

One of the main purposes of Jesus Christ death on the cross was so that we can be given a new Spirit within us. That was not possible until after Jesus's death on the cross, and his resurrection from the dead. Only after Jesus sat down on the right hand of God did Jesus then send the Holy Spirit so men could be given a new heart.

John 7:38.. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39.. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Holy Spirit could not dwell within a person until that person was made a creation in Christ. In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit only dwelled on the outside of God's prophets, and Kings on a temporary basis.
King Saul was anointed with the Holy Spirit at first then later that Spirit left him. Jesus tells us when the Holy Spirit takes up his residence in us (his Church) he will dwell in us permanently, and never forsake us!!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

We just had a very long, Spirited debate about whether or not God will ever take His Spirit away from someone after giving it to them.


Long story short, i think He will.


Take for example this verse from Ephesians ch. 4


Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


And now, lets read commentary on that verse from Matthew Henry:


"All lying, and corrupt communications, that stir up evil desires and lusts, grieve the Spirit of God. Corrupt passions of bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, evil-speaking, and malice, grieve the Holy Spirit. Provoke not the holy, blessed Spirit of God to withdraw his presence and his gracious influences. The body will be redeemed from the power of the grave at the resurrection day. Wherever that blessed Spirit dwells as a Sanctifier, he is the earnest of all the joys and glories of that redemption day; and we should be undone, should God take away his Holy Spirit from us."