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A Biblical verse on accepting our gay brethren: Acts 8:26-40

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Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth and his first letter to Timothy both include lists; 1 Corinthians include a list of actions that will keep someone from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and 1 Timothy includes a listing of unrighteous people. Neither of these lists claims to be all-inclusive.

On the other hand, Jesus made a list that does appear comprehensive:

Matthew 15:18-20

KJV: (King James Version, 1611): "…those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man…"

Darby Translation (DARBY): "... but the things which go forth out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile man. For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies;these are the things which defile man; but the eating with unwashen hands does not defile man."

Obviously, Jesus did not consider homosexuality important enough to specify in what looks like an all-inclusive list.

Matthew 19 has a more significant message.

In Matthew 19:3-12 Jesus answers questions posed by Pharisees about divorce, leading to a question whether it is not perhaps better not to marry. He responds to it with a short discussion in Matthew 19:12 that the King James Version (1611) translates this way:

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb; and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men; and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Castrated males are not the only people included in the term 'eunuch'. There can hardly be a question that gays fall into the eunuch definition given by Christ, and Isaiah 56:4-5 offers a particularly hopeful prospect for those who keep the covenant with God.

Using common sense, rationality and basic logic from what we know about gay people now, it is honest to interpret the third type of eunuch that Jesus mentions as "those who choose to refrain from marriage with women because doing so would be contrary to their God-created nature and therefore dishonest."


In the ancient world, eunuchs were widely associated with homosexuality. Here a self-avowed eunuch is welcomed in to the early church without any concerns about his sexual orientation. He was welcomed on the same basis as other people – his faith in Jesus Christ.

Once people who have prejudice against gays find out someone is gay, it is as if that person has a neon sign on his or her forehead, flashing, "Gay! Gay! Gay!" But God sees people differently, looking past incidental labels and seeing into the core of each being. As the Apostle Peter says, "God shows no partiality." (Acts 10:30)

The grace of God is available to gay people on the same basis as all other humans.

That is what the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch is all about.

The author of Acts sought to write a well-researched history of the acts of the apostles following the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension into heaven. In chapter eight of that book, we find Philip heading a great evangelistic campaign in Samaria. The story tells us that along with "proclaiming the Messiah," (8:4) Philip was healing people and casting out demons. His efforts were going so well, and so many were coming to faith, "there was great joy in that city." (8:8) However, in the midst of this great revival, the Holy Spirit told Philip to "get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (8:26) This road was in the wilderness.

This seems like a strange command: Leave the great revival among the Samaritans, and go out into the wilderness. But Philip did what God asked. Then the story gets even stranger. Out in the wilderness, Philip finds a lone Ethiopian eunuch traveling south from Jerusalem. The author tells us the man was sitting in his chariot, reading from Isaiah. Having just been to Jerusalem to worship, he was now headed home.

It is this nameless man who makes the story so important to gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians, and the acceptance of them. So, let us look more closely at the identity of the Ethiopian eunuch. At the time of the writing of Acts, the term Ethiopian was used to describe people from Nubia, south of Egypt. So, we know from this description that he was probably a black African. But that still leaves us with the question, "What is a eunuch?"

The Greek word used in Acts is 'eunouchos', which means literally "guardian or keeper of the couch."The term refers to those who were placed in positions of highest trust in royal palaces and wealthy households. Eunuchs served and guarded the women in these households. Because of their intimate access to the royal courts, eunuchs often rose to senior government positions. In this story, the Ethiopian eunuch was Treasurer to the Queen of Ethiopia. (8:27)

Not just anyone was permitted to serve as a eunuch. Given their intimate access to the women of the household, they had to be men who could be trusted not to have affairs with (or force themselves upon) the women — because to do so would cloud the line of succession to the throne and confuse inheritance rights. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the ideal candidate for the position of eunuch would be someone known for his disinterest in women. Although the ancients did not have the same clear concept of heterosexual and homosexual that we do today, people were put together in the same way then as now. There were men then (as now) who had a reputation for being disinterested in women as objects of sexual attraction. They would make the ideal eunuch.

Of course, it was not always possible to find someone like this. In those situations, or in situations where the master wanted to be extra cautious, eunuchs were often castrated, i.e., their testicles were removed so they would be incapable of fathering children. But it would be historically inaccurate to picture eunuchs as a bunch of straight men who were castrated. Ancient literature indicates that various types of eunuchs were recognized. There were "man-made eunuchs," meaning those who had been castrated. But there are also references to so-called "natural" or "born" eunuchs. This category also included males who from childhood seemed incapable of or disinterested in intercourse with women.

It is clear from the ancient literature that eunuchs as a class had a reputation for being attracted sexually to men, rather than women. For example, an ancient Summarian myth about the creation of eunuchs says they "do not satisfy the lap of women." They were specifically created, the myth says, because they can resist the wiles of women. - Inanna's Descent into the Nether World, (Journal of Cuneiform Studies, Vol. 4, # 4, 1950), page 200.

The book of Sirach, found in the Old Testament of the Catholic Bible, says that embracing a girl makes a eunuch groan. (Sirach 30:30) The Roman playwright Juvenal (who lived near the time of Christ) stated, "When a soft eunuch takes to matrimony. . . it is hard not to write a satire."

Lucian, a Greek satirist who lived about one hundred years after Christ, compares a eunuch with a concubine to a deaf man with a flute, a bald man with a comb, and a blind man with a mirror. In other words, a eunuch has as much need for a woman as a fish has for a bicycle.

With this historical background, we can now return to the story in Acts 8 about the Ethiopian eunuch. The point we have been leading up to is this: When the Ethiopian introduced himself to Philip as a eunuch, Philip would have immediately known he was dealing with a man who was part of a class commonly associated with homosexual desire.

Acts 8:32-33 tells us the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah 53:7-8. This passage was seen by early Christians as a prophecy about Jesus. The whole chapter tells about the suffering of God's anointed one. Verse 3 says, "He was despised and rejected by others." Verse 7 says, "He was oppressed and he was afflicted."

So, in Jerusalem, the Ethiopian eunuch would have been assured by the people of God that he could not become one of them. He would have been despised and rejected, cut off from God's grace by the religious leaders.

Perhaps someone among his friends had furtively told him about Isaiah 56:3-5, which promises eunuchs who keep God's commandments that someday they will receive a house, a monument, and a name within God's walls.Perhaps, like gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians today, he had gone to his religious leaders pointing to the Scriptures which affirmed him, hoping he might somehow be accepted with kindness and love. But instead, he had been clobbered once again with Deuteronomy 23:1. A eunuch "may not enter the assembly of God's people!" And so he had taken his precious scroll of Isaiah and begun his journey home, reading about another of God's children who had been despised, rejected, and cut off.

It was at this point Philip, guided by the Holy Spirit, happened along and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" The Ethiopian eunuch, still seeking a religious authority figure, answered "How can I unless someone guides me?" (8:31)

So, Philip started with this Scripture and "proclaimed to him the good news of Jesus." (8:35) Then they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is some water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?" Philip's answer should be astonishing to anyone who still holds a prejudice against gay, lesbian, and bisexual believers.

Philip responded, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

Philip did not say, "Let's talk about Deuteronomy 23:1." He also did not say, "I realize since you're a eunuch that you may desire men; can you promise me you'll never have a sexual relationship with a man?" Instead, operating under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." We have no way of knowing whether the Ethiopian eunuch was in fact gay. But we do know he was part of a class of people commonly associated with homosexuality and that this fact was completely irrelevant to whether he could become a Christian.

The implications of this story are profound for gay, lesbian, and bisexual people, and for the acceptance of them by the church.

This story illustrates that what matters is how we relate to Jesus — a point made over and over again in the New Testament, but which many modern Christians refuse to apply consistently.Scripture is not what keeps them from accepting their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters; only prejudice does.For if there were some authentic scriptural basis for excluding the Ethiopian eunuch because of the real possibility he was homosexual, we can be sure that Philip, a man who followed God even when God led him into the wilderness, would have been quick to pursue it.

Most likely, same-sex marriage will soon be the law in all 50 states and we as Christians will have to co-exist. In addition many if not most Christians have a family member who they deeply love, but who is also gay. Homosexual love is just as capable of virtue and vice as heterosexual love. Excluding that love from institutional recognition is prejudicial and deceptive. It reinforces irrational, biological disgusts of some heterosexuals that reflect more their own sexuality and social conditioning than any moral truth, and reinforces a crude fear of otherness barely any different than the primal fears of foreigners, other races, or menstrual blood.

In telling someone they are homosexual, gay people are not revealing a quirky bedroom desire that's impolite to mention in casual conversation, and to treat them like that's what they are doing demeans their entire love orientation, and disrespects some of the most important relationships and desires for love and companionship in their lives. This is why the homophobic cop out that goes, "I don't care what people do in their bedrooms, I just do not want to know about it" is so insulting to gays. Gays are not telling people about their sex lives when they tell them about their sexual orientation. They are telling them about a much deeper and much more central part of their identity—again, something as important to them as being straight is to a straight person.

The net sum gains of gay marriage: More marriages, more commitment, fidelity, love, self-sacrifice, responsibility among homosexuals. More stable homes for children. Less gays in sexually doomed marriages to straights with the concomitant divorces. No exclusion of citizens based on morally irrelevant factors from participating in cultural institutions. No "separate but equal" standards that make for second class citizens. Love and commitment are more clearly defined as the core of marriage rather than degrading economics or social transaction concerns that disregard individual happiness.

All of this is increase in freedom for all to pursue their own happiness as guaranteed by our Constitution. It's a further strike against slavery to our overly-ingrained tendencies of our species to be traditionalistic and fearful of Otherness. It's a teaching instrument for us to overcome our irrational disgusts and learn to separate knee jerk aversions from moral repulsion, which is an increase in our abilities to assess issues fairly, rationally, and only according to relevant distinctions.

It means less promiscuity (if decreasing promiscuity is a good you want), decreasing the chances of sexual diseases and emotional and relational instability. Mainstreaming gays, makes them happier, cuts down on their suicides, gives young people who are gay more confidence that they can be accepted for who they are in the larger culture and that they can pursue their dreams and consummate their loves just as well as if they were straight.



Many a homophobic religious person has infamously claimed that when it comes to gays he "loves the sinner but hates the sin" and many a defender of the full dignity and ethical lives of gay people has judged such a compromised offer of love inadequate (if not insincere).


To gay people, who understand their homosexuality as a key part of their very psycho-sexual identity—which is as fundamental to their self-conception as heterosexuality is to straight people—their homosexuality is not just a "behavior" but a rather fundamental expression of themselves with far reaching consequences for their entire lives.


Of course, that is not to say that being gay is the only important, identity-forming thing in their lives—anymore than a heterosexual person's straightness is the only thing in his or her life which contributes in an essential way to his or her identity. Gay people want and deserve both to not be belittled by being reduced to being only their sexuality as though they were not also full people in the whole other range of ways that straight people are, and at the same time they want and deserve not to have their sexuality treated like just an unusual kinky fetish, a dirty secret, or an embarrassing "unnatural", "disordered" urge which they "struggle to control".

How can one hate a fundamental, non-malevolent, harmless, loving, and psychologically orienting, part of a person while claiming that they simultaneously love that person. Do they even grasp what the word love means? Do they really have a good grasp on what either accepting or, minimally, respecting someone even means? Loving, or, at least, accepting and honoring gays as equal, means not hating a central part of their identities..


Matthew 7:1-5

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

Proverbs 10:12

"Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs."

Ephesians 4:2

“Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.”

James 4:12

"There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

Romans 14:1-13

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

Titus 3:2-7

"To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.."

James 4:11-12

"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

Romans 12:16-19

"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God.."

1 Corinthians 13:1-8

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful.."

Matthew 6:14-15

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Romans 12:10

“Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.”

1st John 4:7-8

“Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

Matthew 22:36-39

“Teacher,” he asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’"

1 John 4:20

"If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen."

John 13:34-35

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Matthew 5:22

“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

1 Peter 4:8

"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins."

Romans 12:8

“Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.”

Luke 6:37

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.."

John 3:17

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him."

The Pharisees, a popular Jewish renewal movement in the time of Jesus, accepted into their fellowship only men who adopted priestly purity laws in daily life. The Pharisees looked down upon the majority of the Jews as "the people of the land," the un-spiritual masses, as many people do today upon gay people.The Essenes, who gathered in Qumran near the Dead Sea, took exclusion to a level far beyond the Pharisaic standard. Entrance into the Essene community required, not only that one be a male who practiced priestly purity, but virtual separation from all who were not part of their monastic community. Not only were outsiders unwelcome in the Essene fellowship, but also they had nothing to look forward to from the Lord other than fiery judgment.

When contrasted to the exclusionary practices of the Pharisees and the Essenes, Jesus' teachings of openness, acceptance, and love to common people – even those who were ritually unclean or regarded as sinners – stands out starkly.

As Jesus said in John 8:7 - "..Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."


These teachings of love, non-judgement, and acceptance is what marks Christians apart from our modern day equivalent of the Pharisees.
 
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Fornication is any sexual activity that is performed outside of monogamous, heterosexual marriage.

The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin, just as all other forms of fornication are sin.

Yes, we should love gay people, the same as we should love murderers and liars. But that doesnt mean accepting their sinful behavior.
 
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"The heart of man is deceitful above all else, and desperately wicked."

It is true that gay people can be in love, that they can be happy, that they can have loving relationships and take care of each other in loving ways. But that doesnt mean that it is not a sin. Our evil hearts delight in all sorts of wickedness, and we love sin in all its forms. It is easy for the sinner to accept that violent sins are sinful, but it is hard for the sinners to accept that "victimless" sins are sinful. But our evil hearts do not determine what is right and what is wrong; God's word determines right and wrong.
 
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RJ

In your title says it all, " Our Gay brethren", and no offense but you don't have it quite right.
Now if you are talking about gay Christians that have truly repented that is another thing all together. I don't believe that is what you are refering to only, if it is, then I am mistaken.
Being a Christian doesn't mean that your void of sin. There will be many gay Christians who are saved but still struggle with their morale sin; they may even fall into gay relations again. Can Jesus heal them of their affliction? The answer is yes but a repenting Christian homosexual, that truly hates the sin but struggles with it at times is not condemed. What is the sin? Don't forget that Jesus took the morale sin of adultry a step further when he said that even looking at another with lust in your heart is the same as adultry; it would not be any different with a gay Christian.
  • I tell you what marks a Christian apart from the modern day Pharisees, it is a person who is saved, trully repentave. It doesn't mean that you are completely void of sin, it means that you are not condemed when you do.
  • On the other hand, a homosexual Christian who willfrully sins with out regard or remorse, is no Christian at all. This is a person who is supported by the Liberal or Progressive Christians that support a gay's rights more for social justice than Biblical truth. Now these Christians are truly equivalent to modern day Pharisees.
 
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In your title says it all, " Our Gay brethren", and no offense but you don't have it quite right.
Now if you are talking about gay Christians that have truly repented that is another thing all together. I don't believe that is what you are refering to only, if it is, then I am mistaken.
Being a Christian doesn't mean that your void of sin. There will be many gay Christians who are saved but still struggle with their morale sin; they may even fall into gay relations again. Can Jesus heal them of their affliction? The answer is yes but a repenting Christian homosexual, that truly hates the sin but struggles with it at times is not condemed. What is the sin? Don't forget that Jesus took the morale sin of adultry a step further when he said that even looking at another with lust in your heart is the same as adultry; it would not be any different with a gay Christian.
  • I tell you what marks a Christian apart from the modern day Pharisees, it is a person who is saved, trully repentave. It doesn't mean that you are completely void of sin, it means that you are not condemed when you do.
  • On the other hand, a homosexual Christian who willfrully sins with out regard or remorse, is no Christian at all. This is a person who is supported by the Liberal or Progressive Christians that support a gay's rights more for social justice than Biblical truth. Now these Christians are truly equivalent to modern day Pharisees.

Hi RJ,

Webster's dictionary defines a Liberal as one who is open-minded, not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional
or established forms or ways. Jesus was a liberal by his time's standards who taught that one need not conform to strict and orthodox views of God, religion, and life to be saved by Him. He rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others, their lifestyles and beliefs.


What Jesus promoted was succinct set of spiritual principals and a way of life based upon the of love, compassion, tolerance, and a strong belief in the importance in giving and of generosity to those in need.

Peacemaking, not War Making: "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." -Matthew 5:9

Resist not evil: "But whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." -Matthew 5:39 I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.." - Matthew 5:44

The Death Penalty: "Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment." -Matthew 5:21

Crime and Punishment: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." -John 8:7 "Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:1 & 2

Justice: "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." -Matthew 5:6 "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." - Matthew 5:7 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." -Matthew 6:15

Corporate Greed and the Religion of Wealth: "In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." -John 2:14 & 15 "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." -Luke 12.15 "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 19:23 "You cannot serve both God and Money." -Matthew 6:24

Paying Taxes & Separation of Church & State: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." -Matthew 22:21

Community: "Love your neighbor as yourself." -Matthew 22:39 "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." -Matthew 7:12 "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." -Matthew 19:21

Equality & Social Programs: "But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." - Luke 14:13 &14

Public Prayer & Displays of Faith: "And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret…" -Matthew 6:6 & 7

Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws: "If any of you has a son or a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?" -Matthew 12:11 "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." -Mark 2:27

Individuality & Personal Spiritual Experience: "You are the light of the world." -Matthew 5:14


Matthew 12:1-21

"At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on a Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pick heads of wheat and eat them. But when the Pharisees saw this they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is against the law to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry – how he entered the house of God and they ate the sacred bread, which was against the law for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that the priests in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what this means: ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” Then Jesus left that place and entered their synagogue. A man was there who had a withered hand. And they asked Jesus, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” so that they could accuse him. He said to them, “Would not any one of you, if he had one sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and it was restored, as healthy as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted against him, as to how they could assassinate him. Now when Jesus learned of this, he went away from there. Great crowds followed him, and he healed them all. But he sternly warned them not to make him known. This fulfilled what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet: “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I take great delight. I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. He will not break a bruised reed or extinguish a smoldering wick, until he brings justice to victory. And in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

We definitely have the Christian equivalent of the Pharisees today, who put strict doctrine over the freedom of man and freedom of thought, and who only desire to condemn others over their perceived sins. Jesus was a liberal by their standards, and freed us from such static tyranny of religion and thought.
 
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RJ

Hi RJ,

Webster's dictionary defines a Liberal as one who is open-minded, not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional
or established forms or ways. Jesus was a liberal by his time's standards who taught that one need not conform to strict and orthodox views of God, religion, and life to be saved by Him. He rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others, their lifestyles and beliefs.


What Jesus promoted was succinct set of spiritual principals and a way of life based upon the of love, compassion, tolerance, and a strong belief in the importance in giving and of generosity to those in need.

Peacemaking, not War Making: "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." -Matthew 5:9

Resist not evil: "But whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." -Matthew 5:39 I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.." - Matthew 5:44

The Death Penalty: "Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment." -Matthew 5:21

Crime and Punishment: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." -John 8:7 "Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:1 & 2

Justice: "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." -Matthew 5:6 "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." - Matthew 5:7 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." -Matthew 6:15

Corporate Greed and the Religion of Wealth: "In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." -John 2:14 & 15 "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." -Luke 12.15 "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 19:23 "You cannot serve both God and Money." -Matthew 6:24

Paying Taxes & Separation of Church & State: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." -Matthew 22:21

Community: "Love your neighbor as yourself." -Matthew 22:39 "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." -Matthew 7:12 "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." -Matthew 19:21

Equality & Social Programs: "But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." - Luke 14:13 &14

Public Prayer & Displays of Faith: "And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret…" -Matthew 6:6 & 7

Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws: "If any of you has a son or a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?" -Matthew 12:11 "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." -Mark 2:27

Individuality & Personal Spiritual Experience: "You are the light of the world." -Matthew 5:14


Matthew 12:1-21

"At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on a Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pick heads of wheat and eat them. But when the Pharisees saw this they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is against the law to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry – how he entered the house of God and they ate the sacred bread, which was against the law for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that the priests in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what this means: ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” Then Jesus left that place and entered their synagogue. A man was there who had a withered hand. And they asked Jesus, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” so that they could accuse him. He said to them, “Would not any one of you, if he had one sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and it was restored, as healthy as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted against him, as to how they could assassinate him. Now when Jesus learned of this, he went away from there. Great crowds followed him, and he healed them all. But he sternly warned them not to make him known. This fulfilled what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet: “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I take great delight. I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. He will not break a bruised reed or extinguish a smoldering wick, until he brings justice to victory. And in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

We definitely have the Christian equivalent of the Pharisees today, who put strict doctrine over the freedom of man and freedom of thought, and who only desire to condemn others over their perceived sins. Jesus was a liberal by their standards, and freed us from such static tyranny of religion and thought.
I love the next person as much as you do but you don't have to accept what they do. The Bible says to love your enemies, doesn't say to approve or go along with what they do. All sounds good but it is still an incorect logic. Yes it can be said that Jesus was a Liberal in his time but your Liberal theology is flawed. Before he died and while he preached, no one accomplished and upheld the the Law of Moses as Jesus did....you can hardly call that Liberal by today's conotation!!
If I may ask you three questions:
  • Are you a Born Again Christian?
  • If so, do you still sin at all?
  • If you do are you remorsful or repentant?
 
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What Jesus promoted was succinct set of spiritual principals and a way of life based upon the of love, compassion, tolerance, and a strong belief in the importance in giving and of generosity to those in need.

What Jesus promoted was dying to self. He promoted losing your life so that you might have everlasting life. There was a man who was very righteous and well off, let's look at him for a second.

Mark 10
17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth." 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. 23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" 27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."​

We have to be willing to give up anything and everything to follow Jesus Christ.

If a homosexual is not willing to give up their homosexual life style to follow Christ, then they are by definition not a follower of Christ. Homosexuality is inherently opposed to God and his gospel. They are not reconcilable.

John 12
24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.​

Travis
 
Loyal
It's pretty easy to take verses take don't have a certain sin in them and call them "all inclusive". And when other verses do contain that particular sin
they are called "partially inclusive". Hmmm...

Jesus didn't say much about homosexuals, but he did talk a lot about keeping the commandments of God, and sexual immorality.
What did God say about it?

Lev 18:22; 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Lev 20:13; 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Deut 22:5; "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
Genesis 18 and 19 say a lot about what God thinks about homosexuality. He destroyed two cities.

It's easy to say Paul isn't Jesus, so his writings don't matter, but the fact is Paul was an apostle, in fact particularly assigned to the Gentiles. The teachings he gives
were revealed to him by Jesus himself. ( Gal 1:11-12; ) So 1 Cor 6:9; and 1 Tim 1:10; still apply, as well as Romans 1:26-27;.

Once we start picking out the parts of the Bible we like and ignoring the parts we don't like, it sure gets easy to make up our own doctrines.

Homosexuality has very little to do with love.
I love men. I love my sons, my dad, other men in the church, some of my friends. But that doesn't make me homosexual.
Who you sleep with is what makes you homosexual.
Are some people "born homosexuals", possibly, but some people are born liars, born thieves, born child molesters, and born murderers.
Just because we are born with a certain tendency to do something doesn't make it any less sin.
 
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Equality & Social Programs: "But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." - Luke 14:13 &14
This does not justify stealing people's money to spend on charity. Give your own money to charity, yes. Steal other people's money (vote to increase taxes) ? NO.

Public Prayer & Displays of Faith: "And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret…" -Matthew 6:6 &
This is addressing those people who "pray" in public for the purpose of having other see them praying. It is not addressing public prayer in general, but only public prayer that is done with the wrong intentions. On the contrary, Jesus Christ commands us to go out to the world and display our faith in public, preaching the Gospel to everyone everywhere. Public prayer is good, when done for the right reasons.

Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws: "If any of you has a son or a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?" -Matthew 12:11 "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." -Mark 2:27
Jesus is not condoning sin. In fact Jesus hates every form of sin.

Individuality & Personal Spiritual Experience: "You are the light of the world." -Matthew 5:14
Individuality is antithetical to Jesus Christ. We are called to deny ourselves and take up the cross daily. What that means is that each and everyday we become less and less ourselves and more and more Jesus.


.
All sexual activity outside of heterosexual, monogamous marriage is sin and no one is going to enter Heaven if they will not give up all sinfulness in order to get there.
 
Loyal
There can hardly be a question that gays fall into the eunuch definition given by Christ, and Isaiah 56:4-5


The eunuch's here are castrated or at least unable to make children.

Isa 56:3; Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from His people." Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."

 
Member
I love the next person as much as you do but you don't have to accept what they do. The Bible says to love your enemies, doesn't say to approve or go along with what they do. All sounds good but it is still an incorect logic. Yes it can be said that Jesus was a Liberal in his time but your Liberal theology is flawed. Before he died and while he preached, no one accomplished and upheld the the Law of Moses as Jesus did....you can hardly call that Liberal by today's conotation!!
If I may ask you three questions:
  • Are you a Born Again Christian?
  • If so, do you still sin at all?
  • If you do are you remorsful or repentant?

Hi RJ,

Yes, I am a born again Christian, born in blood. I'm almost 45 years old now, but when I was 32 I had given up on all hope in life, and had stopped eating for many months out of despair.. thinking that God had cursed me.... my beard had grown down to my waist, and I was an emaciated skeleton of a human being. Although I dwelled in a home that was far above what most people will ever experience in space, and amenities.. none of that helped. My family didn't know what to do, and so put a plate of good and amazing sustenance before me every morning, day, and evening.. but I wasn't interested or capable of ingesting it any more. One night, my mom and dad said they were going out for some function, and asked if there was anything I wanted. I said no.. but then wandered into one of the bathrooms after they had left, and truly looked into the mirror. I looked like a person in one of the concentration camps and right then and there, figured there was nothing worth living for anymore. I put Pink Floyd 'Dark Side of the Moon' on the sound system, and it blasted for part of the night across the entire Snohomish valley... as I took a razor blade, and slashed my veins.... I somehow made it up to my room, and waking the next morning, found that not only had I filled up an entire Levijeans worth of dried blood, but that I was a different person and no longer emaciated. I had torn my shirt off in my grief and madness, and only was wearing stiff dried jeans, completely full of dried blood.. I drove an hour away to my dad's large church on Camano Island and walked into the morning Sunday service with no shirt, but a body covered in dried blood, and
 
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jeans full of the dried same... to ask the congregation if they loved me as Jesus asked us to love one another. And yes, I truly repent of my sins.

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RJ

O.K., I am glad you made it through all that and are among the living praising God.
 
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There is this guy named Mark Lowry. I am a fan. He wrote the song "Mary did you know".. It is my favorite Christmas song. He said something about judging others that I thought was quite profound...

From Mark Lowry Comedy "Recovering Fundamentalist"

"Because they would not receive Him, God opened up the doors and said 'go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come in. And that is how we got in.

And now it seems like after two thousand years the uninvited guest are standing at the doors keeping other uninvited guest out. I say throw the doors open and let them in.

And you know what else.. I didn't make a very good fundamentalist because I never figured out how do you love the sinner and hate the sin. There is too many of you.

I ain't got time to hate your sin. Hate your own sin. Hating my sin is a full time job.

The Psalmist said, 'My sin ever before me'. I ain't got time to hate yours..I think it should be 'love the sinner and hate your own sin'... You hate your sin and I'll hate my sin and let's love each other.....

God spreads grace like a four year old spreads peanut butter.. He gets it all over everything..."




It is my opinion that God's grace is for everybody that puts their faith in Jesus. We are all sinners saved by grace.

1 John 1:9 says ..."If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is God's job to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That process of getting us to the place where we are a reflection of Jesus is personal to each person. Homosexuality is not my "issue", I have my own struggles and I am thankful that God has been patient with me. I trust Him to continue to cleanse me until He sees His reflection in me.

I think the problem is that those that know the word of God and know what it says about sexual sin are being bullied by those that want to call right wrong and wrong right and force us to bow to their agenda. It seems to me that in an attempt to justify their own sin and feed the lust of their own flesh, they condemn us as homophobes and closed minded idiots. That is not very "Christlike"

This passage from Romans chapter one is crystal clear...

"24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


I have noticed that when a pastor is interviewed on secular TV, They are almost always challenged on the question of homosexuality. When they try to give an answer they are talked over by the others and never get to finish their response. (bullied). It is quite sad.

There are two gay men in my realm of friends. I know they are gay and they don't hide it and they both know I love them. I don't judge them and I don't confront them and I don't beat them over the head with my Bible. They know that my resolve on the issue is that their sexuality is between them and God and none of my business. They know what the Bible says on the subject and they are the ones who will answer to Him.




 
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There are two gay men in my realm of friends. I know they are gay and they don't hide it and they both know I love them. I don't judge them and I don't confront them and I don't beat them over the head with my Bible. They know that my resolve on the issue is that their sexuality is between them and God and none of my business. They know what the Bible says on the subject and they are the ones who will answer to Him.
If they profess to be Christians, It is your duty to rebuke them. Although they are not sinning against you, I feel this is still a perfect blueprint for how you should handle the situation:

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Mathew 18:15-17

Which means, after you have rebuked them, if they keep on sinning, you should stop associating with them entirely. Do not let them go on thinking that their sin is a light matter. It will lead to their destruction if they do not repent.
 
Member
My duty is to love them.
And what does it mean to love?

Tell me, if you love a man, and you see that the path he is on will lead him to eternal torment... do you warn him ?

"Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction." 2 Timothy 4:2
 
Active

RJ

There is this guy named Mark Lowry. I am a fan. He wrote the song "Mary did you know".. It is my favorite Christmas song. He said something about judging others that I thought was quite profound...

From Mark Lowry Comedy "Recovering Fundamentalist"

"Because they would not receive Him, God opened up the doors and said 'go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come in. And that is how we got in.

And now it seems like after two thousand years the uninvited guest are standing at the doors keeping other uninvited guest out. I say throw the doors open and let them in.

And you know what else.. I didn't make a very good fundamentalist because I never figured out how do you love the sinner and hate the sin. There is too many of you.

I ain't got time to hate your sin. Hate your own sin. Hating my sin is a full time job.

The Psalmist said, 'My sin ever before me'. I ain't got time to hate yours..I think it should be 'love the sinner and hate your own sin'... You hate your sin and I'll hate my sin and let's love each other.....

God spreads grace like a four year old spreads peanut butter.. He gets it all over everything..."




It is my opinion that God's grace is for everybody that puts their faith in Jesus. We are all sinners saved by grace.

1 John 1:9 says ..."If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is God's job to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That process of getting us to the place where we are a reflection of Jesus is personal to each person. Homosexuality is not my "issue", I have my own struggles and I am thankful that God has been patient with me. I trust Him to continue to cleanse me until He sees His reflection in me.

I think the problem is that those that know the word of God and know what it says about sexual sin are being bullied by those that want to call right wrong and wrong right and force us to bow to their agenda. It seems to me that in an attempt to justify their own sin and feed the lust of their own flesh, they condemn us as homophobes and closed minded idiots. That is not very "Christlike"

This passage from Romans chapter one is crystal clear...

"24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


I have noticed that when a pastor is interviewed on secular TV, They are almost always challenged on the question of homosexuality. When they try to give an answer they are talked over by the others and never get to finish their response. (bullied). It is quite sad.

There are two gay men in my realm of friends. I know they are gay and they don't hide it and they both know I love them. I don't judge them and I don't confront them and I don't beat them over the head with my Bible. They know that my resolve on the issue is that their sexuality is between them and God and none of my business. They know what the Bible says on the subject and they are the ones who will answer to Him.
As a prophesing Christian, I don't know where you draw the line. I do not consider homosexuals an enemy. What jesus said about enemies though is similar to accepting gay life styles. Jesus said to love your enemy but, show me where he said you were to like and accept what they do. It is not their sin as much as, for those Christian where this applies, it is their blatant denial that they will not do anything about it. They are a Christian, supposedly therefore Christ lives in them, but they acknowledge that they will do nothing to stop their sinful life style, they wilfully sin. How is that Christian? My churches Synod allows Gay Pastors, they won't discriminate based on sexual preference. Your telling me that, I am supposed to go to a church and have my Pastor preach the word of God to me but say , on the other hand, I am supposed to accept his blatant and wilfull sin.

He might as well tell me he is a cat burgular , that he likes it and is not going to stop...what's the differnce? Well, there is a difference, one is a social injustice if you disagree with it because it is not a crime, the other mainly not, it is just a crime.

I personally don't know how anyone can be a Christian, with Christ in them and wilfully sin, it is an oxy-moron to me! A Christian, who hates his sin but still struggles with it, I see a person who is regenerated, the wilfull sinner, not so much! Our Synod now wants to allow gay marriages...where do you draw the line.
 
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They both already know what the Bible says on the subject.

I show them love by being their friend and accepting them as they are.
 
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Your telling me that, I am supposed to go to a church and have my Pastor preach the word of God to me but say , on the other hand, I am supposed to accept his blatant and wilfull sin.

I didn't say that
 
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