antimonianism

[B-A-C]

antimonianism - that's a long fancy word, what does it mean?

This is from wikipedia

Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Antinomianism and the Protestant doctrine of sola fide (justification through faith alone) are historically related. (But they are not identical to each other)

Key verses in antimonianism are...

(KJV)
1Jn 3:6; Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 6:2; God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

They take these verses to mean Christians can not sin. Literally, they believe Christians can't sin even if they wanted to. They say the only sin a Christian can commit is the sin of unbelief.
Christians have no obligations to the moral teachings of Paul, to moral teachings of Jesus or even to love God or our neighbors. They concede doing these things are good, but not required.
They believe the moral teachings of Jesus and the 10 commandments only apply to Jews.

Sins like homosexuality, murder, lust, adultery, stealing, lying, fornication no longer apply once you become a Christian. They are considered "bad behavior", but not sin.
You can still be punished by man's law for doing these things, but not by God.
Antimonianists believe the only act of grace was at the moment of salvation. There is no further need for grace, because you can't sin anymore.
They say Christians don't need to ask for forgiveness, because we can't sin. Also we don't need to forgive other Christians, because they can not sin.

There have been many threads and debates about this on TJ. It seems many threads that start off about another subject end up going back to this same subject.
It would be nice if we could keep this all to one thread. That way people who don't want to be involved in the debate don't have to avoid all of the threads on TJ.

I say separate the sheep from the goats. Do you believe Christians can still sin?

 

[farout]

1 John 1:8. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is notin us."
9. "If we confess our sins,He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
10. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." NASB

I am a sheep, and I beleive while we are alive on this earth sinless perfection is impossible.

 

[Davy]

The Poorly translated verse of the king James Bible which render 1 John 3:6, as "hosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." And 1 John 3:9, as "hosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Is well know by modern translators of the Bible. To quote one reference work:

If 1　John 3:6,　9 is read without taking into account the fact that the verb there is in the present tense, John seems to contradict his words at 1　John 2:1, "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father" (KJ). The King James Version reads: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not," and, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin." These renderings fail to carry over into English the continuous action denoted by the present tense of the Greek verbs used. Some modern translations, instead of saying here, "sinneth not" and "doth not commit sin," take note of the continuous action and render the verbs accordingly: "does not practices sin," "makes a practice of sinning" (CB); "does not habitually sin," "does not practice sin" (Ph); "does not continue to sin" (TEV).

To put it clearly, John is saying, a born again person with the holy spirit dwelling inside them, will commit sins, but they will not willfully practice those sins. But as humans have free will, this does not seem to be an absolute rule. Consider the point made by Jesus' words to Thyatira congregation in Revelation 2:19-24, (NASB): "'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance , and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 'And I will kill her children with pestilence , and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you." Clearly, some first century Christians were practicing sin and Jesus warned them to repent or they would be punished.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

1 John 1:8. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is notin us."
9. "If we confess our sins,He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
10. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." NASB

I am a sheep, and I beleive while we are alive on this earth sinless perfection is impossible.

Then you had better read your Bible. GOD says to be perfect and sin not. How can you be the righteousness of GOD, which you are if you are born again and walking in LOVE, and be a sinner too? You are either one or the other. Which are you?

 

[revbrad]

Good posts thus far......

Christians can (and most do) still sin.

We so often think of sin as the big "in your face" stuff but God says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"....ever in that position?....been there, done that
Thank God we do have an Advocate.

 

[DHC]

Colossians 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring
fervently for you in prayers,that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

 

[brhal]

I John 5:16-19 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for the them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness."

I Corin 6:9-10 "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inderit the kingdom of God? Be not decieved: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[farout]

Have you evertold a lie? Have you ever look at a picture or look at a woman with lust? Have you ever used the Lords Name as a curse word? Have you always honnored your parents? Have you ever called or thought to yourself what a foolish person? On your day of rest have you been faithful to God? Have you always given a tithe?

Now I am not saying these things before you becamed saved, I mean after you were born again. Like John said "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His is not in us." 1 John 1:10. I am a sinner being saved by grace. Note saved means a contious action. If you can tell me you do not sin any more I want to see your answer?

 

[farout]

There are some sins that genuine christians do not continue, you are correct. Some of our famous TV preachers / teachers are involved in these sins........so how do you feel this fits in with these folks?

 

[B-A-C]

Then you had better read your Bible. GOD says to be perfect and sin not. How can you be the righteousness of GOD, which you are if you are born again and walking in LOVE, and be a sinner too? You are either one or the other. Which are you?

Is there no grace after we are saved? If we are forgiven when we sin, doesn't that make us righteous? As many people keep saying it isn't our righteousness, it's his.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Is there no grace after we are saved? If we are forgiven when we sin, doesn't that make us righteous? As many people keep saying it isn't our righteousness, it's his.

HUH? Where did that come from? Of course there is grace after salvation. Grace means in part "The empowering PRESENSE of GOD, which empowers you to do that which you are to do"

So back to my question...Are you the righteousness of GOD or are you a sinner? If you're a sinner then you should meet JESUS and get saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Colossians 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What are we warning them about? Why does he say "may" present?
What is Paul labouring, and striving? What is the work working in him, if we are already perfect and sinless?

Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring
fervently for you in prayers,that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Why is he labouring fervently that he might stand conplete is he is already complete and perfect?

 

[B-A-C]

HUH? Where did that come from? Of course there is grace after salvation. Grace means in part "The empowering PRESENSE of GOD, which empowers you to do that which you are to do"
So back to my question...Are you the righteousness of GOD or are you a sinner? If you're a sinner then you should meet JESUS and get saved.

Jesus didn't called the saved "sinners". But he did say the saved sin sometimes.

Luke 11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'"

 

[farout]

You are very judgemental, way beyond what your position in Christ allows. Who do you think you are to tell someone to get saved when you have littel knowledge of the person. Don't be so quick to condemn someone. Perhaps if you don't sin you have no need for Jesus? That just can not be. If you are trying to telle me you no longer sin, Please come out and say so. I have NEVER heard omeone say they no longer sin. I am very serious, you no longer sin?

 

[B-A-C]

The Poorly translated verse of the king James Bible which render 1 John 3:6, as "hosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." And 1 John 3:9, as "hosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Is well know by modern translators of the Bible. To quote one reference work:

Yes, I agree. Here are other translations.
1 John 3:9
(AMP) No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

(GW) Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God.

(KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(MSG) People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.

(NASB) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(NLT) Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

None of these say we are unable to sin, they say we shouldn't practice sin. Even King James if you take it in context makes this clear.

1 Jn 3:4; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 Jn 3:5; And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 Jn 3:6; Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
In old medieval english the "eth" suffix is considered an infinitum. (meaning "more than once up to infinity")
This is equivalent in modern english as saying if you abide in him you won't keep on sinning (My paraphrase)

1 Jn 3:7; Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 Jn 3:8; He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
These two verses are self explanatory, righteous people practice righteousness. People who practice sin are from the devil. Jesus came to destroy these works of unrighteousness.

1 Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(The primary verse in question, I won't comment on it, because I think the verses around it comment on it)

1 Jn 3:10; In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
If you aren't doing righteousness, you are not of God. If you don't love your brother, you are not of God.

1 Jn 3:11; For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Again we hear, love one another. These are Jesus' exact words also. ( John 13:34; John 13:35; John 15:12; John 15:17; )

1 Jn 3:12; Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1 Jn 3:13; Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1 Jn 3:14; We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 Jn 3:15; Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
If you hate your brother you are a murderer. These are also Jesus' words. ( Matt 5:22; )

1 Jn 3:16; Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 Jn 3:17; But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
If we have the means, and we see our brother in need, and we close our hearts to compassion for him, how can the love of God dwell in us?

1 Jn 3:18; My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Saying we love our brothers isn't enough, we should be practicing showing we love them by the deeds we do.

1 Jn 3:19; And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1 Jn 3:20; For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1 Jn 3:21; Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1 Jn 3:22; And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 Jn 3:23; And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
We are supposed to believe in Jesus... "and"... love one another, which is what Jesus said... ( John 13:34; John 13:35; John 15:12; John 15:17; )

1 Jn 3:24; And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If verse 9 is saying we cannot sin (as in we have no choice to sin) then why do almost all of the other verses in this chapter compare doing righteousness (loving your brother)
with unrighteousness (no compassion, murdering your brother (like Cain), hating your brother, ignoring your brother's need)
If verses 9 is saying who shouldn't keep making the choice to sin (as all the other translations above put it) then it makes sense.

In fact loving your brother (or neighbor) is mentioned 10 times by my count in 1 John chapter 3.
Jesus said loving our neighbor was one of the two greatest commandments.
By the way, keeping the commandments are mentioned five times in 1 John.

The whole book of 1st John is one single letter. I find it very interesting that the people who build their doctrine on this one verse, say all of the rest of 1st John doesn't
apply to them. The following verses are also from 1st John. I wonder why they don't apply?

1 Jn 1:7; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[Barny]

antimonianism - that's a long fancy word, what does it mean?
This is from wikipedia

Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Antinomianism and the Protestant doctrine of sola fide (justification through faith alone) are historically related. (But they are not identical to each other)

Key verses in antimonianism are...

(KJV)
1Jn 3:6; Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 6:2; God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

They take these verses to mean Christians can not sin. Literally, they believe Christians can't sin even if they wanted to. They say the only sin a Christian can commit is the sin of unbelief.
Christians have no obligations to the moral teachings of Paul, to moral teachings of Jesus or even to love God or our neighbors. They concede doing these things are good, but not required.
They believe the moral teachings of Jesus and the 10 commandments only apply to Jews.

Sins like homosexuality, murder, lust, adultery, stealing, lying, fornication no longer apply once you become a Christian. They are considered "bad behavior", but not sin.
You can still be punished by man's law for doing these things, but not by God.
Antimonianists believe the only act of grace was at the moment of salvation. There is no further need for grace, because you can't sin anymore.
They say Christians don't need to ask for forgiveness, because we can't sin. Also we don't need to forgive other Christians, because they can not sin.

There have been many threads and debates about this on TJ. It seems many threads that start off about another subject end up going back to this same subject.
It would be nice if we could keep this all to one thread. That way people who don't want to be involved in the debate don't have to avoid all of the threads on TJ.

I say separate the sheep from the goats. Do you believe Christians can still sin?

Hi B-A-C,

Here we go again.
It's not really realistic that these debates should only keep under this one topic. You yourself bring it up so often under other topics.

I guess we'll have to disagree. Truth is the gospel of grace fits the description of Antinomianism.
Jesus took away the sin of the world, John 1:29
We're "freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36
We've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
we "cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9

The contradictions of the "practicing sin" interpretation from those ambiguous modern bible versions only confirms Antinomianism, that Jesus truly set us free from sin.
As the "practicing sin" interpretation is full of contradictions then that only proves that it's error and the alternative view, Antinomianism, is worthy of consideration, if your seeking the truth.

 

[B-A-C]

We've "ceased from sin", 1 Pet 4:1

1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

It's true, those who have learned to discipline their flesh have ceased from sin. We should no longer be pursuing the lusts of men, but the will of God.
The next verse tells us what those lusts of men are.

1 Pet 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1 Pet 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

This last verse says your old sinful buddies will think it's strange that you don't party with them, at least not to the same excess they do it.
It says they might even speak evil of you because you're not like they are.

Loving your brother (or neighbor) is mentioned 10 times by my count in 1 John chapter 3.
Jesus said loving our neighbor was one of the two greatest commandments.
By the way, keeping the commandments are mentioned five times in 1 John.

The whole book of 1st John is one single letter. I find it very interesting that the people who build their doctrine on this one verse, say all of the rest of 1st John doesn't
apply to them. The following verses are also from 1st John. I wonder why they don't apply?

1 Jn 1:7; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Why do only certain verses from 1st John apply, and not others?

 

[james1523]

I'm wondering if those who do not believe we can sin.. confess their sins or ever pray the Lord's prayer??

 

[DHC]

1 John 5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world.
And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[DHC]

I'm wondering if those who do not believe we can sin.. confess their sins or ever pray the Lord's prayer??

The statement that one born of God does not continue to sin does not mean that the believer
has attained perfection in the flesh.

It is the reality that they are born of God, believers are characterized not by sin and death, but by truth and life.

For born of God points to a divine intervention by God for us. This intervention bestows upon us who believe in Jesus
the perfect righteousness of Christ.

Purity from sin is the future expectation now appropriated by believers through trusting in Christ.

We are a royal priesthood in Christ!