antimonianism

[Barny]

Let us look carefully at this verse again:
1Jn 2:27 The anointing you received from God abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you this. Instead, because God's anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.

Here we see the two - God in us and us in God. Here he says the anointing (the Holy Spirit) abides in us.... and then he says "abide in Him, as He taught you to do". So Christ lives in us.. but then we must live in Christ. Christ makes His home in our heart.. now we must make our homes in Christ.

Basically if we abide in Christ we may "behave" well... if we don't abide in Christ.. we may " behave" poorly. But this is not about behavior per se it is about what is the condition of our soul (mind, emotion , will).. is it filled with Christ or is it filled with things of the flesh/world? Rom 8:6 "For the mind-set of the flesh is death, but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace.".

But Christians are not in the flesh, Rom 8:9
Being in the flesh is death, Rom 8:6

We clearly disagree regarding this abiding in Christ issue.
I see abiding in Christ as believing in Jesus.
Anyone not abiding in Christ is in unbelief, which includes being into works of the law/10 Commandments.

All sin by a believer is a result of not abiding in Christ..

Here we disagree as you claim Christians can still be charged with "sin" in contradiction to scriptures.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:33
We've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:9
"Freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36

Anyone who does sin is:
"of the devil", 1John 3:8
"Has not seen him nor known him", 1John 3:6
"is a servant of sin", John 8:34

l

No, we do not repent because it is impossible to repent more than once (Heb 6:4). We cannot repent of behaviors, we repent of unbelief. To believe in Christ is to repent. .

Agreed.

It means to be lawless.. without law...without God's rule in our life. Sin is lawlessness and vice versa. It means to not allow the Holy Spirit to rule our life by subjecting our mind, emotion, will (our soul) to Him by continual prayer and fellowship in our daily living. We have to give account to our obedience to the Holy Spirit who as our teacher and the anointing within us leads us into all truth. As He is ruling from within us we must obey His voice and this is is to abide in Christ, aka live/walk in the Spirit...

Consider what Christ says to believers here (they are believers because unbelievers do not call Jesus Lord):
Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23 ""And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

These are believers who have done many works but have not abided in Christ. Compare with:
John 15:6 "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Heb 6:8 "But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Such believers are open to condemnation not for transgression of Mosaic law (including 10 commandments) because believers are not under Mosaic law, but condemnation for not obeying the voice of the indwelling Christ, the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This condemnation does not result in the same punishment as unbelievers.. but chastisement as for disobedient children.. as 1 Cor 3:15 says.. they are saved, yet so as by fire.

I disagree with the context with which you have used the above scriptures. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

But you still have not explained how it is that you still have Christians being charged with "sin" even though we've been totally purged/cleansed of sin. As we've been justified by God so that not even Satan the accuser can charge us with anything (Rom 8:33) why are you then still charging Christians with "sin"?

 

[james1523]

But Christians are not in the flesh, Rom 8:9
Being in the flesh is death, Rom 8:6

We clearly disagree regarding this abiding in Christ issue.
I see abiding in Christ as believing in Jesus.
Anyone not abiding in Christ is in unbelief, which includes being into works of the law/10 Commandments.

Abiding in Christ is two-fold.. our position in Christ objectively, and our experience of Christ subjectively. My view is that an unbeliever cannot abide in Christ positionally or subjectively, because Christ does not live in them. A believer is in Christ positionally but can be in Christ or not in Christ subjectively, depending on whether they have their living in the flesh or spirit. Unbelief and abiding in Christ are related of course. We need belief in Christ to have our living in Christ subjectively. There is saving faith (objective).. and there is also continual believing and abiding faith (subjective). One faith will save you out of "Egypt", the other will save you into Promised Land (New Jerusalem). Some of Christ's disciples had most intimate fellowship with Him and gave up their life for Him..they experienced Christ subjectively... while others believed He was the Messiah, and called Him Lord, but did not follow Him so intimately... objectively saved by lacking in subjective experience.

Being into works/law is a type of unbelief.. but it is the type of unbelief that prevents maturity and growth in Christ, rather than loss of salvation. We cannot lose our salvation. And being into works/law does not prove we never had salvation.. it shows.. like the Galatians.. that it is possible to start in the Spirit but live and finish life in the flesh/works of law - "Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" They are saved believers nonetheless, God's children, but they cannot obtain the full blessings in Christ and rewards given to those who overcome the flesh including gnosticism, Judaism, and all the other problems the Lord speaks about in Revelation. Their works of law are wood, hay and stubble that they have built upon the foundation of Christ in their life.. which will be burnt by fire. They have not built their house with the proper material (Christ) but built with works of the law/flesh.

Here we disagree as you claim Christians can still be charged with "sin" in contradiction to scriptures.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:33
We've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:9
"Freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36

But your claim that Christians have no sin, is also against the scriptures. You are not comparing scripture with scripture, you are ignoring the scriptures about confession of sin, and focusing *only* on the condition of a believer who is abiding in Christ...which I might add is not unconditional upon believing.. for Christ Himself exhorts his disciples to "abide in Me", and in 1 John also it says "abide in Him"...and Paul says "walk in the Spirit". If this was automatic upon believing.. Christ, and Paul and others would not instruct us to abide. Unlike saving faith which is free gift and can do nothing to earn it.. abiding is something we must do to experience the full riches and blessings of Christ..and our obedience to this is rewarded in the future.

Anyone who does sin is:
"of the devil", 1John 3:8
"Has not seen him nor known him", 1John 3:6
"is a servant of sin", John 8:34

Sinning is the devil's nature. Our flesh is where "satan" dwells, hence anytime a believer sins they are expressing the devil's nature. When Peter said Jesus should not go to the cross.. Jesus called Peter Satan:.. Matt 16:23 "Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.". Of course we know that Peter was not literally Satan.. but Peter was expressing Satan's nature in that moment due to his fleshly comment.. concerned about the Lord's welfare, but still of the flesh, of the world.. seeking to preserve the fleshly natural life. . In our flesh we all are of the devil in the sense of having the corruption inherited from our parents Adam and Eve..but in our spirit we are of God. I think this is why our spirit continues on after death.. but our flesh has to die..

But you still have not explained how it is that you still have Christians being charged with "sin" even though we've been totally purged/cleansed of sin. As we've been justified by God so that not even Satan the accuser can charge us with anything (Rom 8:33) why are you then still charging Christians with "sin"?

This is about justification from the condemnation of the law...
If we read further we can see the context. Rom 8:37 - more than conquers through Him who loved us.. death nor life nor angels or .. no creature.. whether angel, demon or any other thing.. can separate us from the love of God. Paul is making the point that as heirs, sons of God, brothers of Christ (vs 29), there is nothing that can separate us from God's love.

But there is other condemnation. This is subjective condemnation in our conscience due to indwelling sin. The blood of Christ deals with the problem of objective condemnation. The Spirit is the solution to the problem of subjective condemnation. Rom 8:1 speaks about the subjective condemnation.

Does God not chastise His children in this life or the next? He does this because of our shortcomings, our disobedience (e.g. those who lied to the Holy Spirit).. for what other reason than sin of lying to the Holy Spirit would God take away their life?

Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

Is lying not a sin?

Did God not charge them with the sin of lying to the Spirit and so take away their life?

 

[Barny]

Abiding in Christ is two-fold.. our position in Christ objectively, and our experience of Christ subjectively. My view is that an unbeliever cannot abide in Christ positionally or subjectively, because Christ does not live in them. A believer is in Christ positionally but can be in Christ or not in Christ subjectively, depending on whether they have their living in the flesh or spirit. Unbelief and abiding in Christ are related of course. We need belief in Christ to have our living in Christ subjectively. There is saving faith (objective).. and there is also continual believing and abiding faith (subjective). One faith will save you out of "Egypt", the other will save you into Promised Land (New Jerusalem). Some of Christ's disciples had most intimate fellowship with Him and gave up their life for Him..they experienced Christ subjectively... while others believed He was the Messiah, and called Him Lord, but did not follow Him so intimately... objectively saved by lacking in subjective experience.

Being into works/law is a type of unbelief.. but it is the type of unbelief that prevents maturity and growth in Christ, rather than loss of salvation. We cannot lose our salvation. And being into works/law does not prove we never had salvation.. it shows.. like the Galatians.. that it is possible to start in the Spirit but live and finish life in the flesh/works of law - "Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" They are saved believers nonetheless, God's children, but they cannot obtain the full blessings in Christ and rewards given to those who overcome the flesh including gnosticism, Judaism, and all the other problems the Lord speaks about in Revelation. Their works of law are wood, hay and stubble that they have built upon the foundation of Christ in their life.. which will be burnt by fire. They have not built their house with the proper material (Christ) but built with works of the law/flesh.

Again we'll have to disagree. By the way, can I suggest quoting scripture to support your claims. I find this much easier to follow than in your own style of communication. No offense intended, as we each have our own style of communicating, but I do find your posts somewhat challenging to follow as to what your really trying to say (especially when theres no scripture to support it). I personnaly try to keep to a simple communication style to try to make my message as easy to understand as I can make possible. And as most here are familiar with scriptures then by quopting mostly scripture, letting God's word do the talking, will be easier for all here to understand.

But your claim that Christians have no sin, is also against the scriptures. You are not comparing scripture with scripture, you are ignoring the scriptures about confession of sin, and focusing *only* on the condition of a believer who is abiding in Christ...which I might add is not unconditional upon believing.. for Christ Himself exhorts his disciples to "abide in Me", and in 1 John also it says "abide in Him"...and Paul says "walk in the Spirit". If this was automatic upon believing.. Christ, and Paul and others would not instruct us to abide. Unlike saving faith which is free gift and can do nothing to earn it.. abiding is something we must do to experience the full riches and blessings of Christ..and our obedience to this is rewarded in the future.

You are separating abiding from salvation. Do you have scripture to support this?

Abiding in Christ is to believe in him.
This is how we overcome the world. We believe in Jesus, 1John 5:4,5
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin that the world is convicted of, John 16:9
God's will is for us to believe in Jesus, John 6:40
Our faith (believing in Jesus ) is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

We'll have to disagree on the issue of whether Christians "sin". I have already addressed your point about confession of "sin" spoken of in 1John 1. But can you address my point that scripture confirms we cannot sin?

We've "ceased from sin", 1 Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1 John 3:9
"Freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:33
If Satan the accuser cannot charge Christians with "sin" then why are you?

And anyone who does sin is:
"of the devil", 1 John 3:8
"Has not seen him nor known him", 1 John 3:6
"is a servant of sin", John 8:34
This means they are lost/without Christ.

This is about justification from the condemnation of the law...
If we read further we can see the context. Rom 8:37 - more than conquers through Him who loved us.. death nor life nor angels or .. no creature.. whether angel, demon or any other thing.. can separate us from the love of God. Paul is making the point that as heirs, sons of God, brothers of Christ (vs 29), there is nothing that can separate us from God's love.

But you have not addressed the point that nothing can be charged against those God has justified. Why charge Christians with "sin" when God says that nobody can do this to those He has justified?

Christ's sacrifice totally purged/cleansed us of sin. You have recognized that this relates to our position in Christ, but then you turn and focus on physical behavior and judge a Christian's righteousness by it.

But there is other condemnation. This is subjective condemnation in our conscience due to indwelling sin. The blood of Christ deals with the problem of objective condemnation. The Spirit is the solution to the problem of subjective condemnation. Rom 8:1 speaks about the subjective condemnation.

Speaking of "subjective" and "objective" condemnation is confusing and is not supported in scripture.

Rom 8:1 speaks of condemnation under the law of sin and death (aka, law of righteousness, Rom 9:31). And "sin" is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.

Does God not chastise His children in this life or the next? He does this because of our shortcomings, our disobedience (e.g. those who lied to the Holy Spirit).. for what other reason than sin of lying to the Holy Spirit would God take away their life?

Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
Is lying not a sin?
Did God not charge them with the sin of lying to the Spirit and so take away their life?

Scripture gives us definitions of "sin", all of which Christians cannot be charged with due to our position in Christ (unless we fall away into unbelief). And this is not based on our physical behavior. That physical body is already dead (by faith), Rom 8:10

God chastises those He loves. This is not judgement of "sin"/ transgression of the law.
Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered Heb 5:8
though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
Here we do not see this learning obedience through the things Christ suffered as meaning that he sinned.

 

[DHC]

Scripture gives us definitions of "sin", all of which Christians cannot be charged with due to our position in Christ (unless we fall away into unbelief). And this is not based on our physical behavior. That physical body is already dead (by faith), Rom 8:10

God chastises those He loves. This is not judgement of "sin"/ transgression of the law.
Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered Heb 5:8

Here we do not see this learning obedience through the things Christ suffered as meaning that he sinned.

Hey Barny, making any headway with these folk?

They seem rather insistent on having their cake and eating it at the same time.

How much sin is too much sin, the invisible line in the sand.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Since the flesh is crucified, therefore, sin no longer is the issue.

There is no Law in the Spiritual Life, how could there be?

So can we move on to the higher calling in Christ? Humble service!

 

[james1523]

You are separating abiding from salvation. Do you have scripture to support this?

Abiding in Christ is to believe in him.
This is how we overcome the world. We believe in Jesus, 1John 5:4,5
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin that the world is convicted of, John 16:9
God's will is for us to believe in Jesus, John 6:40
Our faith (believing in Jesus ) is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I agree that abiding in Christ is to believe in Him. This is the objective abiding and is positional. And there is also subjective abiding, which is conditional and experiential.
Here is proof.

We know that salvation is free gift Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

But there are also instructions for us to abide in Christ:
Here are some examples and the associated benefits:

Condition of answered prayer is that we abide in Him. Many Christians wonder why their prayers are not answered. Maybe because they don't abide in Him?
John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Abide in Him to have confidence before Him, and not experience subjective condemnation in the conscience (being ashamed when He comes):
1 John 2:28 "Even now, little children, abide in him. Then, when he appears, we will have confidence and will not turn away from him in shame when he comes."

The anointing abides in us, and now we have to abide in Him:
1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."


To experience the Father's and Christ's love.. we have to abide in Him by obedience::
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Salvation is positional and includes objective abiding. Subjective abiding is conditional. There is difference.

We'll have to disagree on the issue of whether Christians "sin". I have already addressed your point about confession of "sin" spoken of in 1John 1. But can you address my point that scripture confirms we cannolt sin?

We've "ceased from sin", 1 Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1 John 3:9
"Freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:33
If Satan the accuser cannot charge Christians with "sin" then why are you?

And anyone who does sin is:
"of the devil", 1 John 3:8
"Has not seen him nor known him", 1 John 3:6
"is a servant of sin", John 8:34
This means they are lost/without Christ.




But you have not addressed the point that nothing can be charged against those God has justified. Why charge Christians with "sin" when God says that nobody can do this to those He has justified?

Christ's scarifice totally purged/cleansed us of sin. You have recognized that this relates to our position in Christ, but then you focus on physical behavior and judge a Christian's righteousness by it.



Speaking of "subjective" and "objective" condemnation is confusing and is not supported in scripture.




Rom 8:1 speaks of condemnation under the law of sin and death (aka, law of righteousness, Rom 9:31). And "sin" is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.




Scripture gives us definitions of "sin", all of which Christians cannot be charged with due to our position in Christ. And this is not based on our physical behavior. That physical body is already dead (by faith), Rom 8:10

God chastises those He loves. This is not judgement of "sin"/ transgression of the law.
Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered Heb 5:8
though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
Here we do not see this learning obedience through the things Christ suffered as meaning that he sinned.

1 John 3:4 is not about Law of Moses.. to be without law is to be without God ruling over you. Sin is transgression of God's rule over your life.

Romans 8 is about nothing separating us from God's love. But the fact that there will be coming believer's judgement and punishment/reward still stands as the Bible reveals.

Subjective and objective is basic fact in interpreting scriptures. There is two types of condemnation, objective is if God condemns based upon some law.. like a judge... but subjective condemnation is when our conscience condemns us from within:
Subjective condemnation is mentioned here: 1 John 3:21 "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God".

Scripture always talks about objective fact (facts of what Christ has done for us, matters of the Law, etc) -external to us.. and subjective experience (Paul's writings about the Spirit, Christ living in us, Christ making home in our heart) - internal to us. Many problems with interpretation arise because we confuse the objective with the subjective.


Regarding sinning, there are a number of examples of Christians sinning in scriptures.
Take this one:

Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
You have to ask yourself..is lying a sin? Yes...
Did the two die because they lied to the Holy Spirit or not? yes...
You say Christian cannot sin.. but here two Christians sinned by lying to the Holy Spirit. Then God killed them.

If they did not sin.. then what else do you call lying to the Holy Spirit?


BTW antimonianism is a heresy that both Luther and Calvin did not agree with, but I suppose you cannot trust these men

Calvin on perseverance of the saints:

"Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves."

 

[DHC]

Regarding sinning, there are a number of examples of Christians sinning in scriptures.
Take this one:

Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
You have to ask yourself..is lying a sin? Yes...
Did the two die because they lied to the Holy Spirit or not? yes...
You say Christian cannot sin.. but here two Christians sinned by lying to the Holy Spirit. Then God killed them.

If they did not sin.. then what else do you call lying to the Holy Spirit?

BTW antimonianism is a heresy that both Luther and Calvin did not agree with, but I suppose you cannot trust these men

Calvin on perseverance of the saints:

"Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves."

Good answer James.

Why would Ananias lie to the church?

What I find interesting about theology is that it is very flexible. It contains levels of understanding that the brightest folk trip over. On one level truth is so simple, just the Gospel of Jesus Christ. On another level there is near infinite scope for debate, some matters are still
bones of contention with scholars.

You quoted "Calvin" James, let's hope this debate does not end up discussing "tulip".

 

[james1523]

Good answer James.

Why would Ananias lie to the church?

What I find interesting about theology is that it is very flexible. It contains levels of understanding that the brightest folk trip over. On one level truth is so simple, just the Gospel of Jesus Christ. On another level there is near infinite scope for debate, some matters are still
bones of contention with scholars.

You quoted "Calvin" James, let's hope this debate does not end up discussing "tulip".

Yes..theology is like that..

In Acts 5:3 Peter says that Satan filled Ananias's heart to lie. That is the how.. the answer 'why' is not answered. This is another example of Satan dwelling in the fallen flesh, to cause a Christian to sin. Perhaps Ananias was not "abiding in Christ". I have no interest to discuss tulip.. lol..

 

[Barny]

I agree that abiding in Christ is to believe in Him. This is the objective abiding and is positional. And there is also subjective abiding, which is conditional and experiential.
Here is proof.
We know that salvation is free gift Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
But there are also instructions for us to abide in Christ:."

Yes, and those instructions are for us to continue to believe in Jesus, enduring to the end, Matt 10:22

Here are some examples and the associated benefits:
Condition of answered prayer is that we abide in Him. Many Christians wonder why their prayers are not answered. Maybe because they don't abide in Him?
John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Abide in Him to have confidence before Him, and not experience subjective condemnation in the conscience (being ashamed when He comes):
1 John 2:28 "Even now, little children, abide in him. Then, when he appears, we will have confidence and will not turn away from him in shame when he comes."."

I think your reading far too much into scripture in your efforts to justify why Christians should still be condemned somehow.

John 15:7 If we abide in Christ is again speaking of believing in Jesus. And when we believe in Jesus, whatever we ask it will be done for us, because we keep his commandments, 1John 3:22,23,
And 1John 2:28 we have confidence before God when we believe in Jesus, 1John 3:21, 1John 4:17.

To experience the Father's and Christ's love.. we have to abide in Him by obedience::
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Salvation is positional and includes objective abiding. Subjective abiding is conditional. There is difference. ."

It seems that you are making the gospel quite complicated with subjective and objective abiding etc. Most prefer to keep a message simple and easy to understand.

A Christian's obedience is to the gospel, believing in Jesus

Romans 8 is about nothing separating us from God's love. But the fact that there will be coming believer's judgement and punishment/reward still stands as the Bible reveals.

I suspect here you refer to Rev 20:12?
If so we disagree on this too.

Subjective and objective is basic fact in interpreting scriptures. There is two types of condemnation, objective is if God condemns based upon some law.. like a judge... but subjective condemnation is when our conscience condemns us from within:
Subjective condemnation is mentioned here: 1 John 3:21 "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God".

Scripture always talks about objective fact (facts of what Christ has done for us, matters of the Law, etc) -external to us.. and subjective experience (Paul's writings about the Spirit, Christ living in us, Christ making home in our heart) - internal to us. Many problems with interpretation arise because we confuse the objective with the subjective. ."

Having been a Christian for approx 30 years I can say I've never heard any church or Bible study ever complicate the gospel like this. Sorry, but it would appear that it's creating problems with interpreting scriptures, LOL.

Regarding sinning, there are a number of examples of Christians sinning in scriptures.
Take this one:
Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
You have to ask yourself..is lying a sin? Yes...
Did the two die because they lied to the Holy Spirit or not? yes...
You say Christian cannot sin.. but here two Christians sinned by lying to the Holy Spirit. Then God killed them.
If they did not sin.. then what else do you call lying to the Holy Spirit?

To clarify for you, I said that in Christ we cannot sin. If someone turns back to unbelief then they are without Christ and in sin. And we all know the wages of sin is death.

BTW antimonianism is a heresy that both Luther and Calvin did not agree with, but I suppose you cannot trust these men

Calvin on perseverance of the saints:

"Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves."

I disagree with your description of the gospel (labelled as antimonianism) as a heresy.
And you are correct, I do not pace my trust in Luther or Calvin. And neither would Paul, Gal 2:6
Although I have no interest in Luther or Calvin or the Pope even, it would be dissappointing if they denied that Christians are righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), as you seem to suggest.
Having not read any messages of Luther nor Calvin, I do wonder, from what you posted above from Calvin, whether he was just following that old traditional belief that any wrong behavior is sin.

 

[james1523]

Yes, and those instructions are for us to continue to believe in Jesus, enduring to the end, Matt 10:22

I think your reading far too much into scripture in your efforts to justify why Christians should still be condemned somehow.

John 15:7 If we abide in Christ is again speaking of believing in Jesus. And when we believe in Jesus, whatever we ask it will be done for us, because we keep his commandments, 1John 3:22,23,
And 1John 2:28 we have confidence before God when we believe in Jesus, 1John 3:21, 1John 4:17.

It seems that you are making the gospel quite complicated with subjective and objective abiding etc. Most prefer to keep a message simple and easy to understand.

A Christian's obedience is to the gospel, believing in Jesus




I suspect here you refer to Rev 20:12?
If so we disagree on this too.



Having been a Christian for approx 30 years I can say I've never heard any church or Bible study ever complicate the gospel like this. Sorry, but it would appear that it's creating problems with interpreting scriptures, LOL.

Your views seem very simplistic for one saved 30 years. You seem very focused on doctrines around belief and works. But Paul tells us to leave the elementary doctrines about works and faith and go onto maturity:
Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God"

The Bible is rich in revelation. Abiding in Christ is the way we live out the Gospel. You seem to think that most verse in the New Testament, is somehow speaking of belief and works. if this were true the New Testament should only be a few pages long...

Christ said two things, one He says "believe in me" John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
then He says "abide in me" (John 15:4). When the scriptures say "abide in Christ", it means exactly that. It does not mean "believe in Christ", .if it meant that it would say that. Of course believing and abiding are not contradictory, but they are two different complementing things. One is positional , the other is experiential. Or we could say that belief is related to relationship (positionally we are sons of God by faith), and abiding is related to fellowship (by our fellowship with Christ and obedience to His commands we abide in Him). If we study and understand the significance of the Jewish temple, we will understand the significance of abiding and the difference between abiding and belief.

Now abiding in Christ was taught in the early church, and is a result of obeying His commands. Thus, abiding in Christ could be seen as the way we show our faith.. active faith. Here is what St Augustine writes about abiding:

St Augustine ( Homilies on the Gospel of John 82, 1-4: CCL 36, 532-534)
"As the Father has loved me, Jesus says, so I have loved you. Abide in my love." There we have the source of every good work of ours. How do they come to be ours? Only because faith is active in love. And how could we ever love, unless we ourselves were loved first?
"Abide in my love," he says to us. How may we do that? In the words that follow you have your answer. "If you observe what I command you, then you will truly abide in my love."

Regarding sinning, there are a number of examples of Christians sinning in scriptures.
Take this one:
Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
You have to ask yourself..is lying a sin? Yes...
Did the two die because they lied to the Holy Spirit or not? yes...
You say Christian cannot sin.. but here two Christians sinned by lying to the Holy Spirit. Then God killed them.
If they did not sin.. then what else do you call lying to the Holy Spirit?

To clarify for you, I said that in Christ we cannot sin. If someone turns back to unbelief then they are without Christ and in sin. And we all know the wages of sin is death.

It is possible to believe in Christ (saving faith) and still sin, if that person is not abiding in Christ. If a Christian sins do they say "Lord Jesus I don't believe in you anymore" - of course they don't. They sin and they still believe in Jesus...then they confess so they can be forgiven. But they sinned because they did not abide. Hence, belief and abiding are different.

I am puzzled that you seem to say a Christian can be without Christ. A believer, even a sinning believer, can never be without Christ. If a person believes in Christ they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, permanently, and He will never leave nor forsake us: Heb 13:5. So when a believer sins, they are not without Christ, Christ does not leave them, but their abiding in Christ is interrupted..their fellowship with Christ is disturbed.. that is why confession is necessary to restore fellowship. But the believer never stops being a child of God. Christ is a living person and it is possible to offend Him..that is.. sin.. so it is quite strange that you do not believe we can do this.. we should tell Christ that we are sorry for our offenses towards Him. That is, confess our sin. And we must also ask forgiveness of those who we have sinned against.

I find at least 3 examples in the New Testament of sins that are not related to unbelief, but to lack of love.

The sin of omission:
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The sin of showing partiality:
Jas_2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

The sin of offending conscience:
1Co_8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.


Paul encourages public rebuking of sin:
1Ti_5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I disagree with your description of the gospel (labelled as antimonianism) as a heresy.
And you are correct, I do not pace my trust in Luther or Calvin. And neither would Paul, Gal 2:6
Although I have no interest in Luther or Calvin or the Pope even, it would be dissappointing if they denied that Christians are righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), as you seem to suggest.
Having not read any messages of Luther nor Calvin, I do wonder, from what you posted above from Calvin, whether he was just following that old traditional belief that any wrong behavior is sin.

Many Christians, including the great reformers did not believe in antimonianism. They argued against it. Also if we study the beliefs and writings of the early church they most certainly did not agree with a view that Christians cannot sin. This means that antimonianism is probably not the true doctrine, the doctrine delivered to Paul.

Here are some examples that the early church taught confession of sins:

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure”

(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
​

“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light”

(Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
​

It is interesting to look back into history to see what the early church believed and those of past centuries. Since the reformers there have been multiple gospels propagated throughout the world and one such gospel is this distortion of the gospel of grace into what is essentially a gospel of lawlessness.

 

[Barny]

Your views seem very simplistic for one saved 30 years. You seem very focused on doctrines around belief and works. .

That convoluted doctrine you follow can lead you away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

When the scriptures say "abide in Christ", it means exactly that. It does not mean "believe in Christ", .if it meant that it would say that. Of course believing and abiding are not contradictory, but they are two different complementing things..

In post #45 you said: "I agree that abiding in Christ is to believe in Him."
And scriptures confirm that this is how we abide in Christ.

Now abiding in Christ was taught in the early church, and is a result of obeying His commands. Thus, abiding in Christ could be seen as the way we show our faith.. active faith.

And our works that shows our faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29

You mention obeying his comands.

That is correct and beliving in Jesus is his command that we see this in 1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Regarding sinning, there are a number of examples of Christians sinning in scriptures.
Take this one:
Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
You have to ask yourself..is lying a sin? Yes...
Did the two die because they lied to the Holy Spirit or not? yes...
You say Christian cannot sin.. but here two Christians sinned by lying to the Holy Spirit. Then God killed them.
If they did not sin.. then what else do you call lying to the Holy Spirit?.
It is possible to believe in Christ (saving faith) and still sin, if that person is not abiding in Christ. If a Christian sins do they say "Lord Jesus I don't believe in you anymore" - of course they don't. They sin and they still believe in Jesus...then they confess so they can be forgiven. But they sinned because they did not abide. Hence, belief and abiding are different. .

Christians have:
"ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:9
This is confirmed by the fact that Christ's sacrifice totally purged/cleansed us of all PAST sin.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST

Yet the convoluted doctrine you follow contradicts this claiming that Christians continue in "sin" and the present and future are dealt with by confession as scripture says Christ's sacrifice only dealt with past sin.
This sounds all too much like saying that Christ's sacrifice could not purge us of sin any better than what was achieved with the yearly sacrifice of bulls/goats.

If a Christian's body is dead (by faith) because of sin (Rom 8:10) and we're a new creation now and we henforth no longer regard anyone according to the flesh (2Cor 5:16,17), theh why do you continue to judge righteousness based on a Christian's physical behavior?


Anyway, I'll get back to answer the rest of your post later. Off to work now.

 

[B-A-C]

There is a big difference between being forgiven of sin, and saying we have no sin.
Christians are forgiven. If they are truly Christians.

Luke 17:1; He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
Luke 17:2; "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
Christians can stumble.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Christian brothers can sin.

1 Cor 8:12; And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
Christian brothers can sin.


Eph 4:26; BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
Christians are able to sin.

1 Tim 5:20; Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
1 Tim 5:21; I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
1 Tim 5:22; Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
Christians can sin.

Heb 3:13; But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Christians can be hardened by sin.

Heb 12:1; Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:4; You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
Christians can be entangled by sin. Christians should strive against sin.

Jas 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Lust is one thing that brings forth sin.

1 Pet 4; Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
The sentence above is one sentence, it is divided into two verses, but it's really just one sentence, not two.

1 Jn 5:16; If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
Christian brothers can sin.

Jas 5:15; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16; Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Christian brothers can sin.

1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Christians can sin.

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Christians are able to sin.

2 Thes 3:11; For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
2 Thes 3:12; Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.
2 Thes 3:13; But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.
2 Thes 3:14; If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.
There are certain sins Christians cannot continue to practice.

1 Cor 15:33; Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
If someone in the church does not repent and continues to sin, remove them.

1 Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
A "so-called brother" is not the same as a true Christian.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Why are these things now mentioned instead of following the commandments? Following the commandments are for believers.
If you are living the lifestyle above, following the commandments doesn't apply to you. You are a Christian in words only. (a so-called brother)

Luke 11:2 And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.
Luke 11:3 'Give us each day our daily bread.
Luke 11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Christians can and do sin.

 

[Barny]

Hi James,

I'll still have to answer your post in parts due to busy day at work.

As Christ's sacrifice dealt only with past sin (Rom 3:25) and you claim subsequent sin needs to be confessed, I'm curious what should happen if someone forgets or neglects to confess these subsequent sins? Please provide scripture to support your answer.

You say you find it strange that I say believers cannot sin, yet you ignore those scriptures I quote that state that we cannot sin in Christ.
If Satan the accuser cannot charge us with sin (Rom 8:33), then why do you?

Will have to get back later for the rest.

 

[james1523]

Barny, it's fine.. take your time..


As usual the objective (God's side) and subjective (man's side) comes into play on this question. God has already resolved that He will forgive us no matter what sin we commit. On the flip side, 1 John indicates we do not receive forgiveness until we confess our sins. This relates to our subjective experience and relates to subjective condemnation in our conscience.

When we ask God's forgiveness for our sins,.. we should be not asking Him because we do not believe that He took away our sins in Christ on the cross.. but because we are conscience of our sin and need to confess it to clear our conscience. Christ dying for us was to satisfy God's righteous requirements. Us confessing our sins is to satisfy us by clearing our conscience and giving us confidence in the presence of God. The more we confess the more confidence we will have, the more faith we will have and the more our prayers will be answered.

I believe God has already forgiven all our sins in Christ, past present and future. This is the objective side, and relates to our position and standing as children of God:
Acts 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

So why does the scripture say we should confess our sins if God has already forgiven them?

Because confessing our sins is a way we practically abide in the Lord. Confession of sin brings a clear conscience and opens the way for unhindered fellowship with the Lord. Confessing our sins is related to keeping a clear conscience before the Lord:
1 John 3:21 "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God"

What if we forget to confess?

There is no eternal consequence. But we can lose fellowship with the Lord, His presence, and His answer to prayer:
Psalm 66:18 "If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;".

We do not need to confess in a specific way. Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer as a model where we are to ask Father to forgive our sins (quote Lord's prayer verse here..). Praying in a general way like this will automatically clear us of all unknown and forgotten sins. Also God has given us His Holy Spirit to make us aware of any specific sins should we need to confess them.

It is true that Christianity is a "personal relationship with God". But few realize that this relationship is a two-way relationship.. God's view towards man and man's view towards God. Let us consider the two sides again.

in 1 John 3:23 God's command has two parts.. one is to believe in Christ.. and the other is to obey His commandment to love one another. Belief is towards God, and love is towards man and towards God by loving man.
1 John 3:23 "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."

Our abiding in Him is related to keeping His commands.. it includes both belief in Him and obeying His command to love:
1 John 3:24 "The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him."

This is why I say abiding in Christ is believing in Him.. yes.. but it is also to practically have our living in Him through regular fellowship. And fellowship, like any fellowship (say between husband and wife) includes communication, resolution of disputes (confession of sin), and obedience to Christ's commands. But can a Christian believe in Him and not abide in Him? Of course they can. There are many people who believe Christ is Son of Lord, died for their sins, but they rarely pray and rarely fellowship with Him or the saints (by going to church). They meet God's condition to be saved from hell, but not meet God's condition to have overcoming and victorious living on this Earth.

This first part (believing) is positional and saves us and has eternal consequence if we do not believe. The second (abiding) is experiential and relates to our fellowship with the Lord. There are no eternal consequences but temporal loss of blessing or gain of reward. Our experiential and subjective living will be judged by the Lord on His return at the "believers judgement". There reward or loss will be measured out according to things done in the body.

It is common belief that Christianity is a "personal relationship with God". Abiding in Christ is simply maintaining a personal fellowship with the Lord. Confession of sin is part of maintaining fellowship with the Lord. On the individual level abiding in the Lord includes prayer, confessing sins, obeying His command to love. And there is also a corporate abiding which includes fellowship with the Saints (Psalm 27:4). If we wanted to go deeper we could study the importance of corporate abiding in the Lord for the fulfillment of the future prophecy in Revelation concerning the New Jerusalem.

That convoluted doctrine you follow can lead you away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Cor 11: 3 is in response to the church in Corinth that was being deceived by the Judaizers... and people were following their favorite preacher or doctrine not Christ (much like the situation today with different denominations). A confusion of many denominations is also not simplicity in Christ. Actually as Paul indicated in Hebrews concerning faith and works.. what I write is basic foundational doctrine including both objective and subjective sides. A view which considers only the objective side but not the subjective side is an over-simplification of what is already a simple Gospel. This is all still about Christ and not works of the law (of Moses). Unfortunately the gospel has been watered down, become simpler and simpler, until it resembles nothing like the original. For this I believe the crash courses in Christianity and evangelical tent crusaders hoping to make a quick convert (or a quick buck) are to blame for oversimplification of the gospel.

Correct me if I am wrong but this seems your logic... A believer is in Christ.. abiding in Christ and believing is the same thing. But a believer cannot sin "in Christ". Following your logic because belief and abiding are the same thing.. a believer can never sin. So if a believer sins they are not a believer.. huh?

So the Christian life is like this.. a person is believer, unbeliever, believer, unbeliever.. Please consider what this amounts to.. in the state of unbelief the Holy Spirit must depart the believer's spirit.. and then once they believe again the Spirit must join to their spirit again. The person was a child of God but becomes a child of satan.. then child of God again. But we are only born of God once.. we cannot be unborn. Hebrews says it is impossible to repent again (Heb 6:6), and the Lord never leaves us.. and the Holy Spirit is not a temporary seal on the believer but permanent:
Ephesians 1:13 “…in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:14 “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”


I think this confusion and contradiction is best resolved by consideration of abiding in Christ as a subjective experience related to obedience to His command to love. Scripture reveals believers (objectively) can be in two subjective states - in Christ, or not in Christ. This explains how and why believers can and do sin (and should confess), but still objectively retain their identity as children of God no matter what they do ( no need to confess). So Christian life is like this.. a person is always believer.. always saved. always in Christ objectively... but they are in Christ, out of Christ, in Christ, out of Christ (subjectively).
On the objective side,.. God's promises and sure and trusted, nothing can change that.. but on subjective side humans are prone to error, and can be in and out of God many times in the day.

On a practical level whether we are in God or not is related to what is constituted in our mind, emotions, will (our soul). Is our soul filled with God?.. if not we are in our flesh, if yes.. we are in Christ.

 

[Barny]

I find at least 3 examples in the New Testament of sins that are not related to unbelief, but to lack of love.
The sin of omission:
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You make an incorrect assumption that "good" refers to good behavior.

Consider the context of James 4
Who is it addressing?
It addresses spiritual adulterers.
Adulterers andadulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

There is even a salvation call made to them.
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. " James 4:7-8

And we see their adultery clarified in James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

James 4 is addressing those judging righteousness by the law. This is unbelief.
To do good, as verse 17 speaks of, is to believe in Jesus.

The sin of showing partiality:
Jas_2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Again, if we see it's context, it speaks about being under the law for righteousness (which is also unbelief). The law requires perfect obedience or else.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

The sin of offending conscience:
1Co_8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Again, we see this refers to anyone who would turn back to works of the law (which is unbelief) and then leads another to do likewise.
1Cor 8:10, "to sit at meat in the idols temple" refers to the sacrifices under the law.
Note also 1Cor 10:18-21
Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons.

Here we see that the physical Jew is really a Gentile who sacrifices to demons.
And if anyone leads another to be under the law, such as through being a partaker of it's sacrifices to demons, then they sin against Christ.

Paul encourages public rebuking of sin:
1Ti_5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

For a Christian to sin it means that they go back under the law for righteousness, which is unbelief.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor /Sinner

So 1Tim5:20, refers to rebuking those who turn back to the law for righteousness. They are the ones who sin.

All these scriptures confirm that in Christ we cannot sin. Christians are not under the law for righteousness. Our righteousness is by faith. So as we're righteous in Christ what "sin" can we be charged with when we continue to believe in Jesus?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:33
Clearly there is no charge of sin against Christians if we continue to believe in Jesus. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
.

Many Christians, including the great reformers did not believe in antimonianism. They argued against it. Also if we study the beliefs and writings of the early church they most certainly did not agree with a view that Christians cannot sin. This means that antimonianism is probably not the true doctrine, the doctrine delivered to Paul.
Here are some examples that the early church taught confession of sins:

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure”

(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
​

“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light”

(Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
​

It is interesting to look back into history to see what the early church believed and those of past centuries. Since the reformers there have been multiple gospels propagated throughout the world and one such gospel is this distortion of the gospel of grace into what is essentially a gospel of lawlessness.

As I said before, we should not place our trust in man. Trust God instead.
Paul likewise found that the renowned leaders within the early church added nothing to him, Gal 2:6
I don't have any interest in what these renowned church figures have to say. If, as you suggest, they truly preached that we are not righteous in Christ, then I would suggest running away from their false gospel.

 

[Barny]

I continue to find the doctrine you follow a convoluted one that has no scriptural support. Clearly we'll just have to disagree.
It's good that you acknowledge our "position" in Christ, as believers.
But this convoluted doctrine you follow, distorts understanding of scripture.

Correct me if I am wrong but this seems your logic... A believer is in Christ.. abiding in Christ and believing is the same thing. But a believer cannot sin "in Christ". Following your logic because belief and abiding are the same thing.. a believer can never sin. So if a believer sins they are not a believer.. huh?

So the Christian life is like this.. a person is believer, unbeliever, believer, unbeliever.. Please consider what this amounts to.. in the state of unbelief the Holy Spirit must depart the believer's spirit.. and then once they believe again the Spirit must join to their spirit again. The person was a child of God but becomes a child of satan.. then child of God again. But we are only born of God once.. we cannot be unborn. Hebrews says it is impossible to repent again (Heb 6:6), and the Lord never leaves us.. and the Holy Spirit is not a temporary seal on the believer but permanent:
Ephesians 1:13 “…in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:14 “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

I think this confusion and contradiction is best resolved by consideration of abiding in Christ as a subjective experience related to obedience to His command to love. Scripture reveals believers (objectively) can be in two subjective states - in Christ, or not in Christ. This explains how and why believers can and do sin (and should confess), but still objectively retain their identity as children of God no matter what they do ( no need to confess). So Christian life is like this.. a person is always believer.. always saved. always in Christ objectively... but they are in Christ, out of Christ, in Christ, out of Christ (subjectively).
On the objective side,.. God's promises and sure and trusted, nothing can change that.. but on subjective side humans are prone to error, and can be in and out of God many times in the day.
On a practical level whether we are in God or not is related to what is constituted in our mind, emotions, will (our soul). Is our soul filled with God?.. if not we are in our flesh, if yes.. we are in Christ.

You misunderstand.

A believer's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
And our body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

Whilst you correctly acknowledge one part, that of our position in Christ, you can't seem to accept that our body is dead by faith. Hence you continue to charge Christians with "sin" by judging the failures of the dead body. As it has been crucified already, then why do you continue to see Christians this way and judge their righteousness by it's failures?
2Cor 5:16-17
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

If you acknowledge our position in Christ, do you also acknowledge the scriptures above?
As we're that new creation in Christ then why do you say that we still sin? It's now Christ in us that lives. Are you saying that Christ sins?
I know you don't mean to say this, and fortunately don't seem to be condemning anyone with that convoluted doctrine you follow. But there are others who do argue that Christians sin and they go further by even preaching condemnation/death by it.

 

[james1523]

You misunderstand.

A believer's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
And our body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.


Whilst you correctly acknowledge one part, that of our position in Christ, you can't seem to accept that our body is dead by faith. Hence you continue to charge Christians with "sin" by judging the failures of the dead body. As it has been crucified already, then why do you continue to see Christians this way and judge their righteousness by it's failures?
2 Cor 5:16-17
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

If you acknowledge our position in Christ, do you also acknowledge the scriptures above?
As we're that new creation in Christ then why do you say that we still sin? It's now Christ in us that lives. Are you saying that Christ sins?
I know you don't mean to say this, and fortunately don't seem to be condemning anyone with that convoluted doctrine you follow. But there are others who do argue that Christians sin and they go further by even preaching condemnation/death by it.

"Body dead by faith" really makes no sense. Faith is not believing something to be true when it is not. Faith is not saying the sky is red when it is clearly blue. This is wishful thinking not faith. Our bodies are not dead, they are very much alive, and still include the sin inherited from Adam and Eve. This is the situation until our bodies die.. and we are resurrected and obtain glorified bodies. These Scriptures you quote are referring to our spiritual life, not our natural life. Obviously, Paul was very much alive and was not literally crucified with Christ in his physical body. The body is dead means our bodies will die because of sin. This is only proof that Christians still have sin in the flesh. If we have no sin, then our body cannot die, it would live forever with our spirit. Only our spirits are born again, only our spirits are regenerated.. the body must literally die (not "die by faith', whatever that means) and be resurrected.

 

[james1523]

You make an incorrect assumption that "good" refers to good behavior.

Consider the context of James 4
Who is it addressing?
It addresses spiritual adulterers.
Adulterers andadulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

There is even a salvation call made to them.
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. " James 4:7-8

And we see their adultery clarified in James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

James 4 is addressing those judging righteousness by the law. This is unbelief.
To do good, as verse 17 speaks of, is to believe in Jesus.

As I said in a previous post, you seem to interpret every scripture in terms of works of law and belief, lol, very simplistic water down of the scriptures. Doing good, is not believing in Jesus. Belief is with the heart (Romans 10:10).. doing good (works) is with the actions.. doing good does not mean belief.. it means literally .. doing good. There's no other way to say it lol... belief and doing good works go together..

Your beliefs are summed up by these verses: James 2:14-16
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If I needed some food and warm clothes I would not be coming to you for help lol.. because you will just believe that I will be warm and have clothes and will fix the problem right?

And despite many stating that we are saved by faith alone... if we are truly honest with ourselves and with the scriptures.. we will admit that the only place where the words "faith" and "alone" are together is in this verse: James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

This scripture alone is enough proof for me to prove that all who propagate the "faith alone" message are deceived and will have to stand before the Lord on judgement day with empty hands and nothing to show for the life they have wasted. I will show my faith by my doing good, and, just how exactly do you plan to show your faith?

 

[Barny]

"Body dead by faith" really makes no sense. Faith is not believing something to be true when it is not. Faith is not saying the sky is red when it is clearly blue. This is wishful thinking not faith. Our bodies are not dead, they are very much alive, and still include the sin inherited from Adam and Eve. This is the situation until our bodies die.. and we are resurrected and obtain glorified bodies. These Scriptures you quote are referring to our spiritual life, not our natural life. Obviously, Paul was very much alive and was not literally crucified with Christ in his physical body. The body is dead means our bodies will die because of sin. This is only proof that Christians still have sin in the flesh. If we have no sin, then our body cannot die, it would live forever with our spirit. Only our spirits are born again, only our spirits are regenerated.. the body must literally die (not "die by faith', whatever that means) and be resurrected.

It seems again we'll have to disagree.
We are all aware of what faith is, Heb 11:1, and yet you doubt that we've been baptized into Christ's death (Rom 6:3) because you see no physical evidence.
This could explain why you reject the scriptures that say that Christians cannot sin.
Is it so hard to believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross totally purged/cleansed us of sin?

Thomas, struggled with believing that Jesus could rise from the tomb unless he saw physical evidence first.
“Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” John 20:25
After Thomas saw the hard physical evidence of Jesus with his wounds, Jesus said:
“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Fortunately the convoluted doctrine you follow does not seem to preaching condemnation/death so far. But there are others who do preach condemnation/death and that all based on doctrines that Christians "sin".

And yes, our glorification does comes later.



And yes, the scriptures I quoted refer to the spiritual. And Christians are spiritual. We are spiritually minded, Rom 8:6,9
Consider 1Cor2:14-15. It describes 2 different types of people, the "natural man" and the "spiritual".
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

 

[Barny]

As I said in a previous post, you seem to interpret every scripture in terms of works of law and belief, lol, very simplistic water down of the scriptures.?

Then your misunderstanding scriptures.

Doing good, is not believing in Jesus. Belief is with the heart (Romans 10:10).. doing good (works) is with the actions.. doing good does not mean belief.. it means literally .. doing good. There's no other way to say it lol... belief and doing good works go together..

And our works that shows our faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29

Your beliefs are summed up by these verses: James 2:14-16
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If I needed some food and warm clothes I would not be coming to you for help lol.. because you will just believe that I will be warm and have clothes and will fix the problem right?
And despite many stating that we are saved by faith alone... if we are truly honest with ourselves and with the scriptures.. we will admit that the only place where the words "faith" and "alone" are together is in this verse: James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

This scripture alone is enough proof for me to prove that all who propagate the "faith alone" message are deceived and will have to stand before the Lord on judgement day with empty hands and nothing to show for the life they have wasted. I will show my faith by my doing good, and, just how exactly do you plan to show your faith?

Again, I show my faith by my works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29. This includes sharing the gospel of Christ.
It seems you might be missing the spiritual message here. For example if someone is destitute of food, while we do offer them food in the physical (and even the unsaved do this), the spiritual implication is sharing the gospel of Christ with them, as Jesus is the Spiritual food and drink.
1Cor 10:3-4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Christians go much further than just offering food, clothing, etc to the destitute. And the reality is that even the non-believers do this.
But in preaching the gospel (that same message of believing in Jesus that we accepted) we offer spiritual food, and Christ's covering.
Hence we show our faith by our works. Believe in Jesus, John 6:29

 

[james1523]

t seems again we'll have to disagree.
We are all aware of what faith is, Heb 11:1, and yet you doubt that we've been baptized into Christ's death (Rom 6:3) because you see no physical evidence.
This could explain why you reject the scriptures that say that Christians cannot sin.
Is it so hard to believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross totally purged/cleansed us of sin?

Thomas, struggled with believing that Jesus could rise from the tomb unless he saw physical evidence first.
“Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” John 20:25
After Thomas saw the hard physical evidence of Jesus with his wounds, Jesus said:
“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Fortunately the convoluted doctrine you follow does not seem to preaching condemnation/death so far. But there are others who do preach condemnation/death and that all based on doctrines that Christians "sin".

And yes, our glorification does comes later.

And yes, the scriptures I quoted refer to the spiritual. And Christians are spiritual. We are spiritually minded, Rom 8:6, 9
Consider 1Cor2:14-15. It describes 2 different types of people, the "natural man" and the "spiritual".
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

The difference between Thomas and this topic is.. Jesus had some hard physical evidence to show him.. but you do not. For your hard proof you need to find one Christian who has not sinned whilst they are a Christian. Can you name anyone?

You say Christians cannot sin and are not condemned. But even the apostle Peter could sin and be condemned: Gal 2:11-14 Peter's hypocrisy was a sin against the truth of the Gospel... and Paul says he stood condemned.
"But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned"

Paul rebuked Peter and followed Luke 17:3 ""Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

The evidence we have is that Christians do sin. Saying Christians do not sin is not real faith it is denial of simple fact.

The scripture in a number of places mentions a sinning brother:
e.g.
1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life."