Butch5
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Now the ad hominem. Your getting rather childish now
Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.
- Thread starter FrankDSegura
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Lol...roflmao...
Please tell us if you have a group, or is this all you?
Butch5
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I'm not talking about who the letter was written. I'm talking about verses 3-12 and who those verses are talking about
Butch5
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Verses 3-12 are referring to the Jews. I've laid it all out in the posts to David. If you'd like a more in depth explanation you can find it here, Ephesians 1
Butch5
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The commentary is mine. It explains what I posted to David in more depth than can be done in a forum post
Butch5
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Sure, if you want to be wrong, have at it. As I've pointed our several times now. Paul states plainly that the "you" group is the Gentiles. That means that the us/we group isn't the Gentiles. The book is a contrast between Jew and Gentile.
I have a NKJ -- one of the headings is "saved by grace through faith" Another is Pauls' prayer for the Church.
I've just been skim-reading through Ephesians -- no mention by name of either Jews or Gentiles. Simply 'to the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus. "
Maybe you're assuming -- but it isn't specified.
Well -- in 2:11 - 12 -- there Is the first mention of "Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands --- that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."
vs 13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
vs 14 For He, Himself in our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.
vs 16 "and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
vs 17 "And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off And to those who were near.
Sounds like it doesn't really matter -- both Jews and Gentiles are made one through Christ Jesus.
I've just been skim-reading through Ephesians -- no mention by name of either Jews or Gentiles. Simply 'to the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus. "
Maybe you're assuming -- but it isn't specified.
Well -- in 2:11 - 12 -- there Is the first mention of "Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands --- that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."
vs 13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
vs 14 For He, Himself in our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.
vs 16 "and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
vs 17 "And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off And to those who were near.
Sounds like it doesn't really matter -- both Jews and Gentiles are made one through Christ Jesus.
Butch5
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That's what the book is about. Verses 3-12 of chapter 1 are about the Jews.
But it's Also the conclusion that matters. Everyone on this earth is either a Jew or a Gentile. Everyone -- upon their salvation -- becomes a son or daughter of God through faith in shed blood of Jesus Christ.
So does it really matter that much.
So does it really matter that much.
Butch5
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It does matter because Christian's argue about being saved from the foundation of the world. Some say God chose who would be saved and some say God looked down through time and chose those who would believe. Both of these arguments are based on this passage in Ephesians 1
Both arguments are wrong because the passage is speaking of the Jews, not who would be saved.
"Christian" or Not. What does God's Word say. There is actually Scripture that says Both. Actually it's more like Because of God's omniscience He knows / knew from the very beginning who would accept Him and who would Reject Him.
And, granted, it Is a very complex passage and it's easy to get into heated discussions about it. There's the sovereignty of God and His omniscience -- lots of theology.
And I've read that book through lots of times. Ephesians 2:8-9 I've quoted to lots of people. And Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. and in 4:1,2, 3, to walk worthy of the high calling with which you are called, bearing with one another in love, keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. etc, etc, etc,
There's just so much wonder 'stuff' in this book.
One of the ways I've tried to reconcile all of it is this -- well -- I know personally that I'm a child of God. Based on 1:13-14 -- my / everyone's salvation is secure in Christ until 'we' are actually With Jesus Christ. Because of the sealing power of the Holy Spirit. God Does know who His elect are. And 'we' Have Not been given that information. 'we' Are to 'go to everyone with the Gospel unto salvation' whomever is willing to listen and either accepts or rejects. Two sides of every coin. Both are true.
If a person is Jewish, they might read this passage in one way -- one particular mind-set -- if a person is Gentile -- in Another mind-set.
And it helps to have a Bible dictionary available to look up what 'predestined / predestination' means as well as 'adoption' means. But it seems like kind of a shame to argue over these passages. Be thankful about what Is understood.
Maybe -- making sure of our personal salvation -- whom ever 'we' are.
I'm definitely Not a moderator -- just another poster. So - another perspective.
And, granted, it Is a very complex passage and it's easy to get into heated discussions about it. There's the sovereignty of God and His omniscience -- lots of theology.
And I've read that book through lots of times. Ephesians 2:8-9 I've quoted to lots of people. And Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. and in 4:1,2, 3, to walk worthy of the high calling with which you are called, bearing with one another in love, keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. etc, etc, etc,
There's just so much wonder 'stuff' in this book.
One of the ways I've tried to reconcile all of it is this -- well -- I know personally that I'm a child of God. Based on 1:13-14 -- my / everyone's salvation is secure in Christ until 'we' are actually With Jesus Christ. Because of the sealing power of the Holy Spirit. God Does know who His elect are. And 'we' Have Not been given that information. 'we' Are to 'go to everyone with the Gospel unto salvation' whomever is willing to listen and either accepts or rejects. Two sides of every coin. Both are true.
If a person is Jewish, they might read this passage in one way -- one particular mind-set -- if a person is Gentile -- in Another mind-set.
And it helps to have a Bible dictionary available to look up what 'predestined / predestination' means as well as 'adoption' means. But it seems like kind of a shame to argue over these passages. Be thankful about what Is understood.
Maybe -- making sure of our personal salvation -- whom ever 'we' are.
I'm definitely Not a moderator -- just another poster. So - another perspective.
v. 3 blessed "us" (Christians)
v. 4 chose "us" (Christians)
v. 5 predestined "us" (Christians)
v. 13 And "you" (Ephesian Christians)
v. 14 guaranteeing "our" (all Christians)
But getting back to Ephesians.
You think JEWISH Christians are blessed v3
You think JEWISH Christians are holy and blameless v4
You think JEWISH Christians are adopted v5
You think JEWISH Christians are given grace v6
JEWISH Christians have redemption v7
JEWISH Christians know the mystery v9
JEWISH Christians are for the praise of His glory v12
What are Gentile Christians...chopped liver?
You think JEWISH Christians are blessed v3
You think JEWISH Christians are holy and blameless v4
You think JEWISH Christians are adopted v5
You think JEWISH Christians are given grace v6
JEWISH Christians have redemption v7
JEWISH Christians know the mystery v9
JEWISH Christians are for the praise of His glory v12
What are Gentile Christians...chopped liver?
Butch5
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I have to disagree. There isn't Scripture that says both. I would submit that Scripture says neither. That's the point. Many have taken this verse from It's context and created a doctrine which is argued over. However, that doctrine isn't even found in Scripture. The doctrine has divided Christians into different groups. Jesus' prayer was that His disciples would be one. So, the misunderstanding of this passage has caused division in the Church and leaves Christians divided rather than one as Jesus prayed.
I would also submit that salvation isn't guaranteed. Jesus Himself said some believe for a while yet fall away. I would also submit that we do in fact know who the elect are. The elect is Israel. Some Christians have taken this term out of context too, and applied it to the Gentiles. Can you see how people's beliefs influence their reading of Scripture?
I find it interesting that you say it helps to have a Bible dictionary to look up words. Those dictionaries are written by men. Often the same men who write commentaries. You say were should just read the Bible and not rely of commentaries because they are the thoughts of men. So are dictionaries. You're not being consistent. Why would one be OK and not the other? Taking it a step further, the translation you read also comes from the thoughts of men. They have to read the original texts and filter it through their beliefs to translate it. Since you think we shouldn't bother with commentaries because they are the thoughts of men, shouldn't we reject Bible dictionaries for the same reason? After all, they're the thoughts of men and as such could be wrong. Let's look at an example.
NKJ Matthew 13:49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, (Matt. 13:49 NKJ)
"The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 NKJ)
"The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 NKJ)
In each of these passages the word age is the Greek word "aion" which is sometimes translated eternal.
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:45-46 NKJ)
In this passage Jesus uses the word "aion" twice. Once it's translated everlasting and once it's translated eternal. In the first three verses above Jesus speaks of the end of the age, or aion. However, in this last passage the translators have translated the same word as eternal. The English words, everlasting and eternal, by definition, mean unending. So, the translators have translated the same word as eternal and not eternal, unending and ending. Either an age ends or it doesn't, it can't be both. So, Jesus said that the age ends, the translators say it doesn't. Since it's your position that we should reject commentaries because they are the thoughts of men shouldn't you reject the idea that aion mean eternal because it's the thoughts of men? Since you say we should just read the Scriptures shouldn't you accept what Jesus said over what men say? Jesus spoke quite a few times of the end of the aion. Since the aion can't be both eternal and end, someone is wrong. Who do you think it right, Jesus or the translators?
