Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

[Sue D.]

Abraham's bosom is where everyone went in the Old Testament times upon their death. One part was for non-believes waiting for the final judgement. The other part Paradise was where Believers went -- waiting for Christ's death on the cross.
And, yes, Jesus Christ Was bearing All the sins of Everyone upon Himself on the cross. His blood was shed for Everyone. But not every one will accept that.

since Jesus Christ Did rise again bodily -- He Did take everyone who'd been in Paradise up with Himself.

And, yes, that's what Scripture teaches.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- very well stated.

Thank you Sue

As we know sometimes it is hard to explain somethings, to get a point over clearly enough, but to God be the Glory, hopefully the explanations helps others.

Bless you.

Jesus is Lord \o/

 

[KingJ]

I am not teaching anything, I telling you what scripture says, unless you are born again you can not get into heaven, thats what Jesus said himself. This is basic 101 Christianity, if you dont understand this I really pray for your eyes to be opened. I also can recommend some great study sources for you just let me know.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The fact that Jesus is the only way to heaven is a ''separate'' issue to God by default sending all to ''the eternal lake of fire''. Did you not read my post?

A person has to ''love the darkness'' John 3:19, not want to repent Psalm 51:17, be sold out to sin Gen 15:16 to warrant them being separated in the lake of fire for all eternity. People only reject Jesus because they ''love the darkness'' THAT is the verdict in John 3:19. There are many in sin who do not ''love the darkness''.

If someone repented, because they hate sin, they made it to Abraham's bosom. A place in death.

So ''NO'' Dave, God is not a fool who would cast us all into the lake of fire if Jesus could not go through with the cross.

 

[KingJ]

One part was for non-believes waiting for the final judgement.

Were the people of Nineveh told by Jonah to believe in Jesus?

Please provide scripture and verse or admit that you stating your assumption as a fact.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I am not teaching anything, I telling you what scripture says, unless you are born again you can not get into heaven, thats what Jesus said himself. This is basic 101 Christianity, if you dont understand this I really pray for your eyes to be opened. I also can recommend some great study sources for you just let me know.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Amen brother, we must be born again, we must become a new creation.

Three times in as many replies Jesus said exactly that.

- We must be born again of spirit and water. Vs 3, 5 &7
- We must believe in Him. Vs 15
- He who believes and is born again is not condemned Vs 18
- He who does the Truth comes into the light so that the light of Christ within can be seen by all.

We should not stop at one or three verses here, the first 21 verses in John Chapter 3 are intended to be read as one.

John 3:1-21 (NKJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation,
that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Blessings.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The fact that Jesus is the only way to heaven is a ''separate'' issue to God by default sending all to ''the eternal lake of fire''. Did you not read my post?

A person has to ''love the darkness'' John 3:19, not want to repent Psalm 51:17, be sold out to sin Gen 15:16 to warrant them being separated in the lake of fire for all eternity. People only reject Jesus because they ''love the darkness'' THAT is the verdict in John 3:19. There are many in sin who do not ''love the darkness''.

If someone repented, because they hate sin, they made it to Abraham's bosom. A place in death.

So ''NO'' Dave, God is not a fool who would cast us all into the lake of fire if Jesus could not go through with the cross.

Dear brother, allow me to add a penneth please.

You say in paragraph 2 above

People only reject Jesus because they ''love the darkness'' THAT is the verdict in John 3:19.

Lets add the next verse also...
19 And this is the condemnation,
that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

And rightly so, that is what scripture says.

But what is 'darkness'? Darkness is... ANYTHING that is not 'in the Light of Christ'

We are not in the Light unless we are Born Again, unless we are saved. If we are Not saved, We are LOST.

Jesus is the Light of the world. PTL

ANYTHING against the Light, against Jesus, is EVIL in God's eyes.

Read again the condemnation, for NOT being born again, for not accepting the Light of The World, Jesus, Yeshua, the Christ.

If we are NOT saved, we are Lost, if we are NOT born again we are not in the Light, we are in darkness, we are LOST.

God's Word is very clear my friend, Very clear indeed.

We belong to God OR we belong to the devil.

If we are not born again we are not walking in the Light and in The Truth

John 8:42-44 (NKJV)
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Matthew 12:30 (NKJV)
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN

IF WE ARE NOT...

19 And this is the condemnation,
that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Against Gods will and commands)
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Blessings

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ ---- Re; Abraham's bosom -- since the resurrection of Jesus Christ -- the only people who go to Abraham's bosom go to the side of Hades -- or hell -- Sheol -- or whatever it's called. And those who died in Old Testament times are still there. They are Dead.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- part of That Is repentence -- part is justification. God sees a person through the blood of Jesus Christ 'just as if they'd never sinned'. = justified,.

Just like a believer dying and immediately being with Jesus Christ -- whatever that entails. And then there is white throne judgement and then eternity Forever.
The unsaved will go to the Other destination and wait. But they are Still in anguish -- torment. But there is no repenting that can be done to get them out and with Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave M]

So ''NO'' Dave, God is not a fool who would cast us all into the lake of fire if Jesus could not go through with the cross.

you sure do take a lot of liberties with Gods word I am done have a good day

 

[Brother Paul]

No contradiction here at all.....

This is like saying ''I made a lion to eat game. I knew the lion would eat game. I am now surprised that the lion is eating game''.

You just said that God foreknew who would accept. God having foreknowledge PLUS God being the Creator utterly debunks your statement ''same opportunity''.

I make a Ferrari and a Mazda. I know a Ferrari will break the speed limit. I know a Mazda won't. I did not make the Ferrari crash or ordain the driver be sent to prison. I gave both cars a fair chance at ''eternal'' prison or no prison.



With your belief, you believe God knew from birth that Cain would sin and be in hell one-day. In other words I would expect your synopsis to be:

God knew Cain would commit a mortal sin and never repent, but yet still decided to go visit him and try get a confession. God had nothing better to do. The angels in heaven were making a noise, He needed a break.

Okay here is your error...now pay attention...first I will quote the section:

Me: Though He knows those who will reject Him it was not mandated. .


And then YOU say: This is like saying ''I made a lion to eat game. I knew the lion would eat game. I am now surprised that the lion is eating game''.

But it is not like saying that at all because HYe did not make them to reject Him...He made them with the ability to decide for themselves. The choice was theirs.

And no He went to Cain because Cain's action HAD TO BE of his own choosing for judgment to be merited. If He made Cain to manipulatively kill his own brother and this MURDER was God's irresistable will for Cain, then Cain was NOT responsible and in fact he did God's will (thus Abel's murder was ultimately God's doing).

 

[KingJ]

you sure do take a lot of liberties with Gods word I am done have a good day

I take liberties? I consider all of scripture and do not cherry pick or recite popular theories as fact.

There was a real chance of Jesus not going through with the cross. He was God made ''100%'' flesh with its weakness. Hence He cried ''Lord Lord please take this cross from me''.

If you and I were living BC we would not be having this ridiculous conversation. You need to try grasp that those in the OT dealt with God without faith in Jesus for 4000 years. For 4000 years God separated sinner and sinner. Not all by default were placed in the bad side of Hades and destined for eternal torment in the lake of fire. What an absolutely ridiculous theory! You are espousing God is wicked and foolish. You are not grasping that God separated / s sinners who repent and Jesus ''ONLY'' saves those who repent.

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ ---- Re; Abraham's bosom -- since the resurrection of Jesus Christ -- the only people who go to Abraham's bosom go to the side of Hades -- or hell -- Sheol -- or whatever it's called. And those who died in Old Testament times are still there. They are Dead.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- part of That Is repentence -- part is justification. God sees a person through the blood of Jesus Christ 'just as if they'd never sinned'. = justified,.

Just like a believer dying and immediately being with Jesus Christ -- whatever that entails. And then there is white throne judgement and then eternity Forever.
The unsaved will go to the Other destination and wait. But they are Still in anguish -- torment. But there is no repenting that can be done to get them out and with Jesus Christ.

What post of mine are you replying to?

Please re-read my post # 24. I asked for scripture and verse to your other post.

Let's deal with one post at a time. You are all over the show.

 

[KingJ]

Okay here is your error...now pay attention...first I will quote the section:

But it is not like saying that at all because He did not make them to reject Him...He made them with the ability to decide for themselves. The choice was theirs.

You are saying noting new, repeating the same error. Please try ''pay attention'' as you say.

You say ''He did not make them to reject Him''.

I am saying ONE + ONE = TWO. IF 1. God has foreknowledge of who will be in heaven and who will not PLUS 2. He is the creator of all = No free will, Wicked

No '''He did not make them to reject Him'''. He ''MADE'' them, fact. He knew when making them that they would reject Him...according to you and others here.

ONE + ONE = TWO, not three, not four.

I appreciate you defending God. You are not trying to push God being partial. You are just going about it the wrong way. I will not ignore the elephant in the room. Nor will the unsaved. We need to get our message of God's omniscience and true free will right. This is a very important discussion.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There was a real chance of Jesus not going through with the cross. He was God made ''100%'' flesh with its weakness. Hence He cried ''Lord Lord please take this cross from me''.

What are you reading my friend?

The chance of Jesus not going through with the cross was NIL.

He was fulfilling prophesy, He was God in the flesh.

There was a time as the day approached he said...

Luke 22:42-43 (NKJV)
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

Not as you put it... ''Lord Lord please take this cross from me''.

There is a big difference in what you put and what scripture says, Jesus knew what He was going to have to go through, notice He didn't cry out in the flesh take this cross from me.

His first word was... 'FATHER'
Then He pleaded with the Father... 'if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me'
Finally He put everything back in the Father's hands... 'nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.'

What a difference that is to what you put my friend.

I say this in His Love my friend.
Please quote scripture and not your own words. Everything will be tested against scripture.

The Truth is in the Word.

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

What are you reading my friend?

The chance of Jesus not going through with the cross was NIL.

He was fulfilling prophesy, He was God in the flesh.

There was a time as the day approached he said...

Luke 22:42-43 (NKJV)
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

Not as you put it... ''Lord Lord please take this cross from me''.

There is a big difference in what you put and what scripture says, Jesus knew what He was going to have to go through, notice He didn't cry out in the flesh take this cross from me.

His first word was... 'FATHER'
Then He pleaded with the Father... 'if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me'
Finally He put everything back in the Father's hands... 'nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.'

What a difference that is to what you put my friend.

I say this in His Love my friend.
Please quote scripture and not your own words. Everything will be tested against scripture.

The Truth is in the Word.

Blessings

This point stems from a reply to Dave which is a tangent to the thread. I wanted to make a quick point and move on.

My paraphrase is fine. The point I am making is that Jesus did not keep silent. He asked for it to be taken from Him. Yes, perhaps if I was alluding to more the exact wording would need to be quoted. I am not. You have made an issue of this for no reason.

The point is that since Jesus was in the flesh, there was a chance of Him not going through with it. He was God in flesh, yes but not God the Father in the flesh. Jesus bore the full weakness of the flesh as we do. Which is why Him remaining without sin is such an achievement.

We ''CAN'T'' say (and this is what you are alluding to) that God knew / we knew that Jesus would PASS with flying colors because....He was God. What utter nonsense! You want to accuse of miss representing scripture, look in the mirror at that terrible terrible assertion.

Please tell me you understand that. If you espouse that as you have done in your post, well then you kind of make God look like a fool for coming ''ín the flesh''.

We can respect God for not sinning. For going to the cross. For fasting 40 days in the wilderness. For needing to pray often to the Father. AS HE WAS 100% in the flesh.

 

[KingJ]

Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

From the fall to Christ's Return is mapped out, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, we agree.

No, we don't agree.

Scripture?

If it can be proven that knowing something is evil, God does not know it. As I keep correcting you all, God is NOT evil. There is NO darkness in Him AT ALL 1 John 1:5. STOP espousing He is ''secretly wicked''.

You all, take the definition of ''omniscience'' from the dictionary and now speak like you completely grasp God on the topic.

You are all guilty of lazy scriptural discernment on a very important topic! Namely, God's partiality. We can't get it wrong.

 

[KingJ]

So to sum up, I believe that...
- God knows, God knew, from the start who will be lost and go to hell.
- God does not want any to be lost, we are to share the Good News, but He knows some will accept the lie and continue to reject Him, His Son, Salvation.

These two lines contradict each other. If God does not want any to be lost why did He make them knowing they would go to hell?

You are in an un-reconcilable spot.

If God was only a parent like us, your points are valid. We cannot control the ultimate choice our children make. They have true free will from us. God is a parent but He is ''''also'''' the Creator.

See, the fact that God is the creator, is not being considered in all your posts.

Calvinists are up front about their beliefs and perhaps make statements that would make you disagree with them at first. But I am telling you that your ultimate belief leans heavily toward Calvinism. They would teach from Rom 9 that God can make from a lump of clay a vessel unto dishonor and from the same lump a vessel unto honor. Who are we to question God. At least Paul and Calvinists acknowledge that it is God who ''can'' make a vessel unto honor or dishonor. But Paul is simply making a point that God is God. Paul explains in the rest of scripture that we can rejoice, because even though God is God, He is a good God. He chooses to NOT make vessels unto honor or dishonor. He chooses to give the gospel of Jesus to the 'whomsoever' will accept Him. IE Just because God can be wicked, DOES NOT MEAN HE is wicked! Does not mean He does what is wicked. We cannot question Him, sure, He is God we are but a mere mortal. But, He wants us to. He wants a bride. He wants children. He tells us, '''relax''' I am righteous in ALL my ways. I am good. I am love. I could be wicked. Unrighteous. Partial. But I am not.

Now some members here come with part Calvinistic beliefs on God's omniscience.

I am going to say this for the last time. All assumptions about God's foreknowledge, plans for those in hell...NEED to be filtered through the fact that God chooses to be good and righteous in ALL His ways.

All the heretical half truth teaching that leaves the door open for many to assume God has a ''secret dark side'' to Him, has to stop

 

[KingJ]

God did not condemn the world, @KingJ, He sent His One and Only Son that it may be saved.

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Please quote me. I never said He condemned anyone. I think you meant Dave.

 

[Brother-Paul]

This point stems from a reply to Dave which is a tangent to the thread. I wanted to make a quick point and move on.

My paraphrase is fine. The point I am making is that Jesus did not keep silent. He asked for it to be taken from Him. Yes, perhaps if I was alluding to more the exact wording would need to be quoted. I am not. You have made an issue of this for no reason.

The point is that since Jesus was in the flesh, there was a chance of Him not going through with it. He was God in flesh, yes but not God the Father in the flesh. Jesus bore the full weakness of the flesh as we do. Which is why Him remaining without sin is such an achievement.

We ''CAN'T'' say (and this is what you are alluding to) that God knew / we knew that Jesus would PASS with flying colors because....He was God. What utter nonsense! You want to accuse of miss representing scripture, look in the mirror at that terrible terrible assertion.

Please tell me you understand that. If you espouse that as you have done in your post, well then you kind of make God look like a fool for coming ''ín the flesh''.

We can respect God for not sinning. For going to the cross. For fasting 40 days in the wilderness. For needing to pray often to the Father. AS HE WAS 100% in the flesh.

Greetings brother, peace be with you,

A paraphrase may be acceptable if it is quoted as a paraphrase, but as it was it was scripture wrongly stated and for that we are all responsible, not just for what we write/type but that it is correct scripturally, if not we are to make it clear to the brethren there is an error.

You say we cannot say Jesus would pass with flying colours, that He would accept the cross. I have to disagree my friend. I do so on the following basis:
- Jesus was God in the flesh (I appreciate it is the flesh part you are referring to in the point of weakness)
- Prophesy WILL ALWAYS BE FULFILLED - so we were foretold that these things would happen
- If I remember rightly over 20 prophesies were fulfilled the day Christ was crucified and died on the cross for our sins.

Although I understand what you are saying, to say we cannot say Jesus would do exactly as prophesied is saying... you are not believing in prophesy.

God prophesied beforehand, through the prophets, so when they happen it proved God was in them.

No one is making God look a fool, God forbid such thoughts, prophesy tells us beforehand what will happen, and it will and did m happen as God said.

To Him be the Glory forever. Amen

 

[KingJ]

Amen brother, we must be born again, we must become a new creation.

Three times in as many replies Jesus said exactly that.

- We must be born again of spirit and water. Vs 3, 5 &7
- We must believe in Him. Vs 15
- He who believes and is born again is not condemned Vs 18
- He who does the Truth comes into the light so that the light of Christ within can be seen by all.

We should not stop at one or three verses here, the first 21 verses in John Chapter 3 are intended to be read as one.

John 3:1-21 (NKJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation,
that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Blessings.

What was the default location for Adam and Eve when they died?

A. Earth
B. Paradise
C. Bad side of Hades
D. Heaven

 

[KingJ]

Greetings brother, peace be with you,

A paraphrase may be acceptable if it is quoted as a paraphrase, but as it was it was scripture wrongly stated and for that we are all responsible, not just for what we write/type but that it is correct scripturally, if not we are to make it clear to the brethren there is an error.

You say we cannot say Jesus would pass with flying colours, that He would accept the cross. I have to disagree my friend. I do so on the following basis:
- Jesus was God in the flesh (I appreciate it is the flesh part you are referring to in the point of weakness)
- Prophesy WILL ALWAYS BE FULFILLED - so we were foretold that these things would happen
- If I remember rightly over 20 prophesies were fulfilled the day Christ was crucified and died on the cross for our sins.

Although I understand what you are saying, to say we cannot say Jesus would do exactly as prophesied is saying... you are not believing in prophesy.

God prophesied beforehand, through the prophets, so when they happen it proved God was in them.

No one is making God look a fool, God forbid such thoughts, prophesy tells us beforehand what will happen, and it will and did m happen as God said.

To Him be the Glory forever. Amen

There are deeper truths to consider on 'prophesy''.

God knew / wanted to be very pro-active / involved in everything related to the cross. So His prophecies would be seen through. Example, I plan a birthday party for my kid. I book a clown. I book a jumping castle. I buy a present. These are known be me. These are things I can accurately prophecy.

However, Jesus going to the cross is a different matter. For Jesus to be a 'worthy' sacrifice He only had to die. There was no reason, God could not have come down to earth for they day and gone to the cross. The criteria for a worthy sacrifice would be fully met.

But instead, we see God take a different approach. He does not just want Jesus to go the cross. He wants Jesus to be 100% separated from Him Matt 27:46. A Lamb to the slaughter Isa 53:7. Grow up with a human family. Be exposed to temptation and sin. He is not going to ''cheat''. I often wonder why this was so important for God. It is because God wants us to grasp that He is going to deal with mankind respectfully. He wants to be fair and just with us. Good and righteous. Upright and Holy. No disrespect. No lies. No fake'ness. IE Jesus had 100% free will just as we do.

Jesus had the ability to call 1000 angels and not go to the cross. He knew God will still be ok with Him. Which makes what Jesus did so much more.

We must not lesson this. Jesus had 100% free will to say YES or NO to the cross.

We undermine / mock all the effort God has gone through to make this truth a reality for us. Free will is evidenced by all those things Jesus endured that He did not have to. Likewise God honors each of us with true free will.

As such, I do believe, God was hopeful of Jesus going through with the cross. If He was a betting God, He would probably bet 999:1, but there was the 1. There has to have been the '1'. Otherwise Jesus did not have free will. We do not have true free will.

Do you believe we have true free will? Do you believe God can't be surprised? All I can say is that ALL the evidence points there.

You show me a scripture where God says '''Jesus will die on the cross'' and I show you a scripture where Jesus says ''can you take this cup from me?'' and then from His free will ''chooses'' to give in to the will of God, as you quoted the first part of that scripture ''if it be they will''. Jesus did not ''have'' to say that. He chose to.