Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

[Brother-Paul]

I am turning nothing around. You guys are not properly explaining / dealing with the issue.

Consider the following two scenarios:

Scenario 1:

You build three cars. You impose a penalty of prison for any car breaking the speed limit. Any car consistently breaking the speed limit would be utterly destroyed. You are an expert builder, you know every detail to a car's engine, gearbox and aerodynamics.

The first car you build is a formula 1 racing car. The second is a semi fast sports car. The third is a slow car, that really has to try hard to break the speed limit.

Would anyone on the face of the earth with a working brain say you are impartial to every car? Hell No!

Scenario 2:

You live in Africa with three children. One is black, one is white and one is a Jew. You decide to go live in Europe. You know that if you go to Europe, your black child will be forced into slavery, your Jewish child sent to gas chambers and your white child will live a normal to nice life.

Would anyone on the face of the earth with a working brain say you are impartial to every child? Hell No!

Thoughts on Scenario 1:

For the creator to be good, surely every car has to have the same odds. DNA that can go either way. Good or evil. There can be absolutely no foreknowledge with DNA.

Thoughts on Scenario 2:

For a parent to be good surely every child should be able to live a good life? Why send all to Europe? If you have perfect foreknowledge, you should create the best option for a good life for each and every child.

Conclusion: For God to be good, foreknowledge cannot exist. If it does, then hell cannot exist.

My belief: If it can be proven that knowing something is evil, then God does not know it. He knows all there is to know. He is as good as He is great. He is truly a good God and hell is real.

Yours and other beliefs: God knows all, creates all. Even a cruel and torturous hell. He is good because He is God. We dare say He is not good. Everyone is destined for hell. Those not going there are thus privileged. Lucky. He cherry picks some to save. From before the foundations of the earth. I am one of the lucky ones going to heaven. Sorry for everyone else not ''chosen''. My message to the unsaved is this ''God is good and impartial, anyone can be chosen ''cough cough''.....hope they buy that''.

Where am I going wrong exactly?

First brother it is not scripture, I gave you a very detailed explanation, Post 17 if I remember rightly, but you choose to bye pass it.

God knows all and God creates all, very true my friend. Nothing is impossible for Him, God is the creator of all things, He gives and He can take away.

But regarding the topic we are discussing, God does not want any to be lost, we agree, but as we see in John 3:16-21, many will reject the Free gift of Salvation, that is their choice not God's. The gift is available for all, through Jesus, people condemn themselves by rejecting God, that is there error, God has made it very clear.

Blessing

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes, let's talk scripture. I want you to focus on those that define God. Righteous Psalm 145:17. Light with no darkness 1 John 1:5. Impartial Acts 10:34.

So, you don't think......when considering His omniscience.....that His impartiality be a limiting factor?

You say 'Lets Talk Scrioture, now that sound better, but let us both look at the scripture with an open mind.

You quote Ps 145:17, lets look in m ore detail

Psalm 145:17-21 (NKJV)
17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works.
Amen agreed

18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Now you missed this out brother... note... 'To ALL who call upon Him in Truth

19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
Notice He will fill the desires of... Not all, but of those who fear him, lost souls don't accept him so they do not fear Him.

20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.
Notice again, … of all who love Him, what happens to the wicked? Those who reject Him? The answer is there also.

21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh shall bless His holy name Forever and ever.
This verse can also be mis-read if read on it's own, but in context, He having said what He has, it seems clear to me that, All flesh that is Saved, shall bless His Holy Name, the Wicked He will destroy He says so above.

My dear friend, please don't cherry pick scripture to make a point, your point, let us take it as it is written, as it is meant. You say you don't but again it appears clear you do, does it not?

What I read here fits in perfectly with what I shared in Post 17, in what is included in...

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

In His Love.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes, let's talk scripture. I want you to focus on those that define God. Righteous Psalm 145:17. Light with no darkness 1 John 1:5. Impartial Acts 10:34.

So, you don't think......when considering His omniscience.....that His impartiality be a limiting factor?

Let us look at 1 John 1:5, or better still let us look at all of 1 John 1:

1 John 1:1-10 (NKJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The First Epistle of John, is the first of the Johannine epistles of the New Testament, and the fourth of the catholic epistles. It is attributed to John the Evangelist, traditionally thought to be the author of the Gospel of John and the other two Johannine epistles.

John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, wrote the letters to the growing Church, he wrote them to believers, we must take this into account when reading the letters.

Because John is writing to believers we see the statement... If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He doesn't have to confirm what happens if we do not confess our sins, he is not writing to lost souls.

The Epistles are letters of encouragement to the growing church.

Blessings.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes, let's talk scripture. I want you to focus on those that define God. Righteous Psalm 145:17. Light with no darkness 1 John 1:5. Impartial Acts 10:34.

So, you don't think......when considering His omniscience.....that His impartiality be a limiting factor?

Let us look at Acts 34 you have kindly provided...

Acts 10:34-48 (NKJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ--He is Lord of all--
37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree.
40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

What are we looking at here?

The Greatest Miracle—Winning Lost Sinners

Interesting scripture recorded here, we see Peter using 'the keys to the Kingdom' for the third and last time.

Acts 2 opened the door to faith for the Jews
Acts 8 the door had been opened to the Samaritans
Acts 10 we see how God uses him to open the door and bring into the church the Gentiles. Gal 3:27-28 Eph 2:11-22

I find it fascinating that, after the Great Commission, Matt 28:19-20, it took ten years to reach the Gentiles, God's speed, the Jews had to be first, the Samaritan's had to be next as they were rejected Jews, dislikes by the main Jews because they said they were unclean, by marrying gentiles. God had a plan, He always has a plan.

Now was the time to open the door of faith (Acts 14:27) to the Gentiles and bring them into the family of God.

When God tells us He wants all to be saved, He doesn't want any to be lost, He really means that. Everything was done according to His Plan, Jews first, then Samaritans, then Gentiles, then comes The Great Commission.

But as He said else where which I have listed, not all will be saved.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Which brings us back again to...

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[KingJ]

You say 'Lets Talk Scrioture, now that sound better, but let us both look at the scripture with an open mind.

You quote Ps 145:17, lets look in m ore detail

Psalm 145:17-21 (NKJV)
17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works.
Amen agreed

18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Now you missed this out brother... note... 'To ALL who call upon Him in Truth.

Are you being serious?

It is written ''Brother Paul is a good boss to all his employees. To those that perform and go the extra mile he gives a special bonus.''

My Interpretation = Brother Paul is a good boss to all his employees. To those that perform and go the extra mile he gives a special bonus.

Your interpretation = Focus on 'those who perform'. Don't miss that fact. IE Brother Paul is a good boss only to those who perform.

Just shocking!

 

[KingJ]

19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
Notice He will fill the desires of... Not all, but of those who fear him, lost souls don't accept him so they do not fear Him.

20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.
Notice again, … of all who love Him, what happens to the wicked? Those who reject Him? The answer is there also.

21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh shall bless His holy name Forever and ever.
This verse can also be mis-read if read on it's own, but in context, He having said what He has, it seems clear to me that, All flesh that is Saved, shall bless His Holy Name, the Wicked He will destroy He says so above.

What in the universe has verse 19-21 got to do with our discussion?

We are discussing God's partiality. That He destroys the wicked is a separate issue.

My dear friend, please don't cherry pick scripture to make a point, your point, let us take it as it is written, as it is meant. You say you don't but again it appears clear you do, does it not?

I am not guilty of cherry picking. You have provided no verse that oppose God being righteous in all His ways.

If you make an accusation, please try get your facts right or present a valid case. I state God is righteous in all His ways. You quote scripture that says He deals harshly with the wicked and accuse me of cherry picking?

If you want to attack God being righteous in all His ways, show a scripture that explains He is not righteous in all his ways. Do you believe He is not righteous in all His ways?

Do you believe God is 100% impartial? YES or NO?

We are talking about His partiality vs impartiality. Did you not grasp my post # 59?

 

[KingJ]

Let us look at 1 John 1:5, or better still let us look at all of 1 John 1:

1 John 1:1-10 (NKJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The First Epistle of John, is the first of the Johannine epistles of the New Testament, and the fourth of the catholic epistles. It is attributed to John the Evangelist, traditionally thought to be the author of the Gospel of John and the other two Johannine epistles.

John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, wrote the letters to the growing Church, he wrote them to believers, we must take this into account when reading the letters.

Because John is writing to believers we see the statement... If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He doesn't have to confirm what happens if we do not confess our sins, he is not writing to lost souls.

The Epistles are letters of encouragement to the growing church.

Blessings.

I wish we still had that facepalm emoji.

 

[KingJ]

Let us look at Acts 34 you have kindly provided...

Acts 10:34-48 (NKJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ--He is Lord of all--
37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree.
40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

What are we looking at here?

The Greatest Miracle—Winning Lost Sinners

Interesting scripture recorded here, we see Peter using 'the keys to the Kingdom' for the third and last time.

Acts 2 opened the door to faith for the Jews
Acts 8 the door had been opened to the Samaritans
Acts 10 we see how God uses him to open the door and bring into the church the Gentiles. Gal 3:27-28 Eph 2:11-22

I find it fascinating that, after the Great Commission, Matt 28:19-20, it took ten years to reach the Gentiles, God's speed, the Jews had to be first, the Samaritan's had to be next as they were rejected Jews, dislikes by the main Jews because they said they were unclean, by marrying gentiles. God had a plan, He always has a plan.

Now was the time to open the door of faith (Acts 14:27) to the Gentiles and bring them into the family of God.

When God tells us He wants all to be saved, He doesn't want any to be lost, He really means that. Everything was done according to His Plan, Jews first, then Samaritans, then Gentiles, then comes The Great Commission.

But as He said else where which I have listed, not all will be saved.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Which brings us back again to...

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

You lose focus easily. Wasting your time and mine by discussing other topics.

Are you suggesting that any surrounding scripture alters the truth to God being impartial Acts 10:34?

I feel you need to revisit the word ''partial''.

Partial = Favouring one side in a dispute above the other; biased.
Impartial = Treating all rivals or disputants equally.

At the moment I interpret your posts as.....''God is not truly impartial as He deals harshly with the wicked'''. Is that correct?

 

[KingJ]

First brother it is not scripture, I gave you a very detailed explanation, Post 17 if I remember rightly, but you choose to bye pass it.

God knows all and God creates all, very true my friend. Nothing is impossible for Him, God is the creator of all things, He gives and He can take away.

But regarding the topic we are discussing, God does not want any to be lost, we agree, but as we see in John 3:16-21, many will reject the Free gift of Salvation, that is their choice not God's. The gift is available for all, through Jesus, people condemn themselves by rejecting God, that is there error, God has made it very clear.

Blessing

I did not bypass post 17. You did not and still are not addressing the issue of partiality being an inevitability if there is foreknowledge by a creator.

I am eagerly awaiting a post from someone that is focused on that issue. All I am reading is unrelated topics, jokes and insults. Nobody here is actually dealing with the elephant except for me.

I am also not saying I am right. I am open to see other views. But scriptural views that do not taint God in anyway whatsoever.

 

[Wnl]

Hi All,
I have family members, who are kind good living people, who probably
believe in God deep down, but they have never repented of their sin.
They may have told a lie or two in their lifetime, but they are first in line
when you nead help.

Is anyone out there that believe My loving God will throw all these nice
people, billions of them, to an eternal Hell forever, screaming in pain
forever and ever.
I say that you do not know God, God is Love. It's a Christian Hoax.
The word Hell is from the Egyptians and should be interpreted grave.
The lake should be interpreted people.
The fire is God Himself, God is a consuming fire.

People thought the world was flat and so it is with Hell, the word is slowly
being eradicated from all Bibles, it has been taken out of most and reduced
in others.

So all you people who believe you want people to scream out in pain forever,
I've got good news for you, The world is round,
With Love, Wnl

 

[KingJ]

Hi All,
I have family members, who are kind good living people, who probably
believe in God deep down, but they have never repented of their sin.
They may have told a lie or two in their lifetime, but they are first in line
when you nead help.

Is anyone out there that believe My loving God will throw all these nice
people, billions of them, to an eternal Hell forever, screaming in pain
forever and ever.
I say that you do not know God, God is Love. It's a Christian Hoax.
The word Hell is from the Egyptians and should be interpreted grave.
The lake should be interpreted people.
The fire is God Himself, God is a consuming fire.

People thought the world was flat and so it is with Hell, the word is slowly
being eradicated from all Bibles, it has been taken out of most and reduced
in others.

So all you people who believe you want people to scream out in pain forever,
I've got good news for you, The world is round,
With Love, Wnl

Your thinking on God is accurate. But your scriptural knowledge is lacking, no offence.

Hell exists and it is eternal Matt 25:46. It exists because people hate God and reject Jesus. These are people who are sold out to sin. They ''love'' the darkness John 3:19.

God honors their free will request to not be with Him. It is what a loving God does for those that hate Him. He truly honors free will. He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

If you read Luke 13:28, it says people in hell will weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see that they are cast out / separated from God and the saints. It is that separation that causes suffering. Eternal suffering. Your eternal company are evildoers who do not want to repent of their sins. Whatever they may be. As such it will always be a place of 'suffering'. Not from God's doing!

There is scripture that points to a sin specific punishment too. But I believe this will be momentarily. Not eternal. IE A whipping verse a brazen bull.

_______________________________

Your family is on the fence. If you say they are ''good'' I will challenge you and ask why ''good'' people have not accepted Jesus.

We know for a fact that God draws near to ''good'' people James 4:8.

I will concede that they are still alive because they are not sold out to sin. I pray for them and for you, that you all do go one step further and truly repent of your sins per Psalm 51:17, invite Jesus in per Rev 3:20 and carry your cross / make a stand for Jesus, for what is truly good and right per Matt 16:24.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi All,
I have family members, who are kind good living people, who probably
believe in God deep down, but they have never repented of their sin.
They may have told a lie or two in their lifetime, but they are first in line
when you nead help.

Is anyone out there that believe My loving God will throw all these nice
people, billions of them, to an eternal Hell forever, screaming in pain
forever and ever.
I say that you do not know God, God is Love. It's a Christian Hoax.
The word Hell is from the Egyptians and should be interpreted grave.
The lake should be interpreted people.
The fire is God Himself, God is a consuming fire.

People thought the world was flat and so it is with Hell, the word is slowly
being eradicated from all Bibles, it has been taken out of most and reduced
in others.

So all you people who believe you want people to scream out in pain forever,
I've got good news for you, The world is round,
With Love, Wnl

None of our good works will win our own way to heaven. That's why God provides the cross of Christ for us. His blood atones for our sins. Even those one or two lies during our life time. Heaven is God's way or No way. And the only other location is hell.

Satan's goal is to make the existence of hell seem as non-existent as possible. He wants 'us' to rationalize hell away from existence. Except that all of a sudden 'people' are going to end up there and satan will laugh and laugh at 'us'. Because we have been gullible enough to believe satan's lie instead of listening to God's Word. God's Word tells us what will happen to non-believers. Are we listening to HIM or not.

Yes, people Did believe the earth was flat -- Until 'they' were proved Wrong.

Bible preachers USED to preach 'hell fire and brimstone' sermons, but it became less and less popular so it's not really taught any more. People don't want to hear about That. And That is why lots of people are going to end up going there.

God's Word tell us that God does Not want Anyone to spend eternity in pain and agony. It's only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. God has made a way for every else to be in heaven for all of eternity. So it's 'our' choice.
Just Don't Deny the existence OF hell.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@KingJ

We all know the scripture... LOVE is

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 (NIV2011)
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (KJV)
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

But in the KJV the word used is 'Charity' yet in the NKJV and others it was changed to Love.

The word Love is so often misunderstood. I remember when I was around two years old (in Christ), there was a lovely man in the Church fellowship I was part of then, all he would preach, all he would believe is 'God is Love'. He was a warm hearted, round, red faced man, a gentle man. I remember talking with him on several occasions about the Tribulation and Great Tribulation periods, he would have none of it, he didn't believe it, God is Love.

This situation is so true today, there are some who only want to believe God is Love, and why not, it is true. God is Love, but God is also creator, God is our Father and as a responsible father He has set rules. The difference between us and God the Father is we are born after the Fall, we are all born into sin, He knows this and offers to help us, He doesn't want any to be lost, that is because God is Love.

The question is what type of love? In the western world, as discussed elsewhere, love to us is anyway from feelings for our husband, wife, children, grandchildren, parents, as well as love for pet, love of job, love of being in the sun on holiday, love of car, hobby, sex, etc, etc. So what is love? What kind of love are we talking about? Scripture is clear what type of love it is talking about, it includes at least 7 different types of love, sadly we only have one word and so only use one word to fit all situations. That was why initially the KJV included charity as a form of love, not the word love.

But looking deeper we see the true meaning, we see The Truth. The Word in the verses above relate to agape Love, God's Love is a Divine Love.

Now we can love, but we cannot love with God's Love, is Love is unique to Him, it is Divine agape Love.

So what love does God say we should have?

Mark 12:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Here we see man's love for God, the highest form of love we can have on earth as humans. It is an agapaō Love

you shall love (with an agapaō love) the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.

What is the difference then between God's Love agape, and man's highest possible form of love agapaō Love.

God's Love is Divine Love, man's love for God is to love agapaō (in a social or moral sense) Source: Strong's dictionary of NT Words.

We cannot ever Love as God loves, therefore we can never understand the deep love He has for mankind. But God is God, He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent.

It is not wrong to understand God as He really is, God is Love, but it is important to realise who He is, and the difference between His Love and our love, according to The Word.

It is also important to understand all The Word, not just the Love parts.

God loved His children so much, He allowed Pharaohs army to be killed in the Red Sea.

God saved Noah, his wife, and children and their wives, eight people, He loved those who loved Him so much, but He hates sin so much that the rest of the world had to be killed in the flood.

God loves the children He created so much, He hares sin so much, that Jesus, His One and Only Son had to shed His Blood on the Cross so that we may be saved.

God loves us all so much, He doesn't want any of His children to be lost, but He knows they will be, because people like darkness to the light, they prefer sin to salvation, He is left with no choice, He doesn't want any to be lost, but if people will not accept what He has done for us, what Jesus has done for us, then they will pay the price. God's Word not mine. Important note: God did not condemn anyone, He gives us all the same choice, do we choose light or darkness, do we choose Jesus or follow sin the world and the devil, do we accept Salvation, Eternal Life or the opposite.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Perish is the Greek word, apollymi.
Vine's Words: Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive, Lose, Loss (Suffer), Perish
to destroy fully (reflexive to perish, or lose), literal or figurative :- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The Word 'condemned' and 'condemnation' from Strong's refers to... to determine, to distinguish, judicial, judgement and punish.

The more I read brorher, the more scripture confirms everything we have previously said. God is Love, Amen, Yes. But He hates sin, all who do not repent and come to Him through Jesus, have condemned themselves. but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God is Love, it is not His will anyone will be lost, it is man that rejects God not God that rejects man, because they prefer the world than Jesus.

Good or bad in worldly views, is worldly views. We accept God's Word or we accept the worlds views. It is as light as light can be, it is all in scripture.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

What in the universe has verse 19-21 got to do with our discussion?

We are discussing God's partiality. That He destroys the wicked is a separate issue.

I am not guilty of cherry picking. You have provided no verse that oppose God being righteous in all His ways.

If you make an accusation, please try get your facts right or present a valid case. I state God is righteous in all His ways. You quote scripture that says He deals harshly with the wicked and accuse me of cherry picking?

If you want to attack God being righteous in all His ways, show a scripture that explains He is not righteous in all his ways. Do you believe He is not righteous in all His ways?

Do you believe God is 100% impartial? YES or NO?

We are talking about His partiality vs impartiality. Did you not grasp my post # 59?

I believe what scripture tells me.

It is always important to take all scripture, or certainly chapters or sections rather than verses, I am not saying using verses to encourage is wrong, far from it we are to encourage one another in Christ Jesus. But when ever two verses 'appear' to say different things, we should always look at the section or chapters as a whole, we should also search the scriptures for similar meaning or situation. It is also good for the Body of Christ to share these things together, but with open minds, as I have done.

The best picture is always the fuller picture, the best picture is always in God's hands, He sees the full picture, we see the underside and at times try to work things out in worldly, human thoughts.

I have considered everything you have said my friend, I have compared all scriptures you have provided, I have prayed and compared all you have quoted, I have quoted and others have quoted, all with an open mind, I remain with the same understanding from the scriptures that I had at the beginning, which to me, and many more on here is very clear.

If you have further scripture on the subject, let us consider that in the light of all we have done so far, if you haven't then I am not going to go round in the same circles. If I wanted to keep going round in circles I would drive to a large roundabout or go to a fairground.

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ

We all know the scripture... LOVE is

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 (NIV2011)
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (KJV)
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

But in the KJV the word used is 'Charity' yet in the NKJV and others it was changed to Love.

The word Love is so often misunderstood. I remember when I was around two years old (in Christ), there was a lovely man in the Church fellowship I was part of then, all he would preach, all he would believe is 'God is Love'. He was a warm hearted, round, red faced man, a gentle man. I remember talking with him on several occasions about the Tribulation and Great Tribulation periods, he would have none of it, he didn't believe it, God is Love.

This situation is so true today, there are some who only want to believe God is Love, and why not, it is true. God is Love, but God is also creator, God is our Father and as a responsible father He has set rules. The difference between us and God the Father is we are born after the Fall, we are all born into sin, He knows this and offers to help us, He doesn't want any to be lost, that is because God is Love.

The question is what type of love? In the western world, as discussed elsewhere, love to us is anyway from feelings for our husband, wife, children, grandchildren, parents, as well as love for pet, love of job, love of being in the sun on holiday, love of car, hobby, sex, etc, etc. So what is love? What kind of love are we talking about? Scripture is clear what type of love it is talking about, it includes at least 7 different types of love, sadly we only have one word and so only use one word to fit all situations. That was why initially the KJV included charity as a form of love, not the word love.

But looking deeper we see the true meaning, we see The Truth. The Word in the verses above relate to agape Love, God's Love is a Divine Love.

Now we can love, but we cannot love with God's Love, is Love is unique to Him, it is Divine agape Love.

So what love does God say we should have?

Mark 12:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Here we see man's love for God, the highest form of love we can have on earth as humans. It is an agapaō Love

you shall love (with an agapaō love) the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.

What is the difference then between God's Love agape, and man's highest possible form of love agapaō Love.

God's Love is Divine Love, man's love for God is to love agapaō (in a social or moral sense) Source: Strong's dictionary of NT Words.

We cannot ever Love as God loves, therefore we can never understand the deep love He has for mankind. But God is God, He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent.

It is not wrong to understand God as He really is, God is Love, but it is important to realise who He is, and the difference between His Love and our love, according to The Word.

It is also important to understand all The Word, not just the Love parts.

God loved His children so much, He allowed Pharaohs army to be killed in the Red Sea.

God saved Noah, his wife, and children and their wives, eight people, He loved those who loved Him so much, but He hates sin so much that the rest of the world had to be killed in the flood.

God loves the children He created so much, He hares sin so much, that Jesus, His One and Only Son had to shed His Blood on the Cross so that we may be saved.

God loves us all so much, He doesn't want any of His children to be lost, but He knows they will be, because people like darkness to the light, they prefer sin to salvation, He is left with no choice, He doesn't want any to be lost, but if people will not accept what He has done for us, what Jesus has done for us, then they will pay the price. God's Word not mine. Important note: God did not condemn anyone, He gives us all the same choice, do we choose light or darkness, do we choose Jesus or follow sin the world and the devil, do we accept Salvation, Eternal Life or the opposite.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Perish is the Greek word, apollymi.
Vine's Words: Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive, Lose, Loss (Suffer), Perish
to destroy fully (reflexive to perish, or lose), literal or figurative :- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The Word 'condemned' and 'condemnation' from Strong's refers to... to determine, to distinguish, judicial, judgement and punish.

The more I read brorher, the more scripture confirms everything we have previously said. God is Love, Amen, Yes. But He hates sin, all who do not repent and come to Him through Jesus, have condemned themselves. but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God is Love, it is not His will anyone will be lost, it is man that rejects God not God that rejects man, because they prefer the world than Jesus.

Good or bad in worldly views, is worldly views. We accept God's Word or we accept the worlds views. It is as light as light can be, it is all in scripture.

Blessings

I like your post. It is important to clarify God's love.

Many mortal sinners today confuse His love with favor. They believe they will be with Him in heaven. He ''understands'' and ''loves'' them.

They don't understand that they cannot access His love unless they repent. As you noted.

We just need to agree on the fact that what we do or don't do, does not in anyway shape or form change the fact that God is love.

We do not taint God and God has not got a secret wicked side. We ask for what we get. We want the darkness. We want to sin. Even though we be born with sin all around us. We persist and persist in it. We grieve the Holy Spirit. Ignore Jesus knocking on the door to our heart day in and day out. Nobody who lands up in hell will be surprised.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I like your post. It is important to clarify God's love.

Many mortal sinners today confuse His love with favor. They believe they will be with Him in heaven. He ''understands'' and ''loves'' them.

They don't understand that they cannot access His love unless they repent. As you noted.

We just need to agree on the fact that what we do or don't do, does not in anyway shape or form change the fact that God is love.

We do not taint God and God has not got a secret wicked side. We ask for what we get. We want the darkness. We want to sin. Even though we be born with sin all around us. We persist and persist in it. We grieve the Holy Spirit. Ignore Jesus knocking on the door to our heart day in and day out. Nobody who lands up in hell will be surprised.

Thank you for your kind words brother.

God IS LOVE, we all agree my friend, we have from the start of the discussion, even before that of course.

If that was all I read I would agree we all go to heaven because God is Love, but He had more to say than that, we should therefore read and listen with an open heart.

The word LOVE, probably the most important word we are taught and teach, is so misunderstood. And as shown in the post earlier, our most perfect love is not a patch on God's agape, divine love. Because God is Love. (Faith, Hope and Love and the Greatest of these is Love)

In this world we often say, I said it to my wife the other day on a different subject, Love is Blind. It really does blind us, and that is our Love, image if we could love like God, even a little bit like Him.

The retired vicar I spoke of, way back when I was just two years old, Christian years, was so blind to God's Love that He couldn't see, or heed the warnings, he would not accept the tribulation period of woes and more. Even when reminded about some of the ways God punished people in the Old Testament, I mention the easy remember ones, like Pharaoh's warriors killed in the Red Sea, like the Great flood when only eight souls were saved, He still would not accept God could do those things, God to him was love, full stop. Love can blind us, but scripture must never be so.

Yes we are born into sin, we are taught from youngsters worldly ways, lies and while lies, fibs, santa and so much more. If 90% of the current world are lost souls we should not be surprised. (90% used as an example). Sheep without a shepherd, listening to each other, influencing each other, 'Warning satan at work' should be a sign everywhere in the world.

God does not want any to be lost, God IS Love, but we are clearly told many will be. When we accept The Word, we accept it in all it's fullness.

It is a true blessing my friend, to read your last comments, but all we have done is pray and chat together, may God receive the Glory and may The Truth in the Word always be visible to us to be able to share as the Body of Christ. We are His. To God be the Glory, Jesus is Lord. Amen

 

[Sue D.]

I like your post. It is important to clarify God's love.

Many mortal sinners today confuse His love with favor. They believe they will be with Him in heaven. He ''understands'' and ''loves'' them.

They don't understand that they cannot access His love unless they repent. As you noted.

We just need to agree on the fact that what we do or don't do, does not in anyway shape or form change the fact that God is love.

We do not taint God and God has not got a secret wicked side. We ask for what we get. We want the darkness. We want to sin. Even though we be born with sin all around us. We persist and persist in it. We grieve the Holy Spirit. Ignore Jesus knocking on the door to our heart day in and day out. Nobody who lands up in hell will be surprised.

Well -- there , unfortunately , are people who end up in hell and Are / Will Be surprised. Part of God's character is being Just. Those who Don't accept God's gift Of salvation Will end up there. And, no, God does Not have a Secret wicked side. We simply tend to reject Him.

They will be surprised because they have believed satan's lies. People want to down-play the reality Of hell -- lake of fire and brimstone. And it's lasting for Eternity.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Sue D. @KingJ

Sadly it is true, our dear brother has a loving heart, but Love can blind us, the Truth in the Word must always be in the Light, God's Word is God's Word from beginning to end, alpha and omega, although there is no end for those who repent and accept Jesus, Thanks be to God.

All the Blessings and all the Warnings are written down, ahead of time, to give us chance, to give us all chance, but many will not see Eternal Life, it is sad, it is very sad, you mention their surprise when they end up in Hell Sue, I think the penny will drop long before that..

How many (don't reply to this there will be more than we care to believe), How many will go to 'their' church and find many have already been raptured. They should have been part of the ekklesia, and truly understood what the True Church is. Will they know what has happened, they should but will probably come up with excuse after excuse to try make sense of, the Rapture cannot have happened we wouldn't have been 'left behind.'

Then the second warning for all unsaved, raised to the Great White Throne Judgement. Names are not in the Book of Life... 'I know you not!'

It is so sad that those who are not saved but are church goers, it is sad so many people think they go to heaven when they die. Who is to blame? The devil, the world, sin, vicars, pastors, deacons, RC fathers, ministers, they all played a part I am sure, some with best intentions, but the truth is, if a person does not accept Jesus as their Saviour and Lord, if they didn't accept God's Gift of Salvation, they will have no one to blame but themselves, sad as it is...

The Bible is God's highway code to life, speeding, driving without due care and attention, drinking influenced by alcohol, can all lead to death.
God clearly tells us sin works in a similar way, the wages of sin is death.
We do not have to speed or drive without due care and attention, we don't have to drive under the influence of alcohol, those who do, choose to, and pay the price.
We don't have to accept worldly, sinful ways, we can accept God's Life line and be saved, be adopted into His Kingdom, become God's children, the journey to life starts right here, right now.

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

John 3:3 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:3 (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 (NKJV)
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

But I ask myself, what does this message really tell us? We have a job to do, the harvest is ready but the workers are few.

Time is very short, we do not know who will accept God's Gift of Salvation, but He does, because we don't know we are to tell everyone we can, in prayer, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NKJV)
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

In Jesus Name. Amen.

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- so very true and thank you for sharing.

 

[Mart]

Are some people destined for Hell no matter what they do?
Maybe they Blasphemied the Holy spirit? Or thought some thing very bad sacrilegious, or something.
Can these sins be repented of?
What are the people who are destined for darkness?-- unbelievers, haters of God almighty, or people who sin after receiving the Holy spirit?
Who exactly are they
What is the Blasphemy of the Holy spirit?

Calvinism is an evil, wicked philosophy. What hope is there for any of us if we accept the Calvinist doctrine? Salvation through Yeshua Messiah is for all. That is clearly stated in scripture.

As for those who state that Yahweh knows who will accept Him from the start, scripture disagrees.

Genesis 6:5-6​

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. NAS

Looks to me he didn't know how mankind would turn out. He didn't know how I would turn out. I know he didn't have His hand on me. If he had I wouldn't have done the evil I did.

Blaspheme the holy spirit.

First of all this isn't talking about an individual named holy spirit. It's talking about Yahweh's spirit. Blasphemy as referenced here is to do evil in Yahweh's name. Example? To commit murder and say it is Yahweh's will. To claim belief in Yeshua and then vote for abortion in all its forms. That is blasphemy.

Last but not least, those who repent (turn their lives around and quit doing what Yahweh considers wrong) are a new creation. The book is either true or false.

It says in 2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come.
HCSB

A literal translation of scripture says we receive "a holy spirit " not "the holy spirit." This ties in with the verse above. We will still be tempted. My temptation is women. It used to be drugs and alcohol, especially weed but that compulsion has been taken from me. I like women and I've been blessed with a fantastic wife. But, I'm tempted daily. The difference between me now and in the past is I don't give in to temptation. When my mind goes in that direction I exercise my self discipline and either tell myself to knock it off or if the temptation is very strong pray for help to Yahweh and get that help each and every time.