Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

[Brother-Paul]

No, we don't agree.

Scripture?

If it can be proven that knowing something is evil, God does not know it. As I keep correcting you all, God is NOT evil. There is NO darkness in Him AT ALL 1 John 1:5. STOP espousing He is ''secretly wicked''.

You all, take the definition of ''omniscience'' from the dictionary and now speak like you completely grasp God on the topic.

You are all guilty of lazy scriptural discernment on a very important topic! Namely, God's partiality. We can't get it wrong.

Go back to POST 17, Page-1

God is not evil, no one said He was. God IS NOT Evil. We all agree so drop that comment please.
There is NO darkness in Him at all. Again we agree.
No one is espousing Him as secretly wicked.
Those are your words my friend.

I didn't mention the word 'omniscience' (You stated above... ' You All'), though I agree with my other brothers and sisters regarding God is all knowing.

Lets look at it again briefly...

God is in Heaven, Holy, Righteous, Pure. Agreed

Man is on the cursed earth, unless saved through Jesus and the cross we belong to, sin, the world and the devil.

All generations go back to Adam and Eve, each generation line branching like that if the branches of a tree.

Following the Great Flood, there was only eight people left on earth, Noah and his wife, their three sons and their wives.

The line from Adam and Eve continues after the floor from these four couple. And the lines have continued to this day.

That is the basics of mankind and I am sure we agree all these points.

Now we know that not all these peoples will go to heaven, only the saved souls will go to heaven. We agree I am sure.

What is important to note at this point, I believe, is that God knows, God knew, how many will go to heaven and how many will not.

How did He know? Simples, Only those whose name id in the Book of Life and The Lamb will go to Heaven, this was written before time. Yes

Now it does not mean God was evil because the others go to hell, to the contrary, as stated by us both,

John 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

We agree in the Love of God here.

Now it does not mean God was evil, as you are appearing to portray it, or are saying you believe others are seeing it that way, because the lost souls go to hell. To the contrary my friend, it was God's will that NONE should perish, but He knew when the names were added to the book of life they would be. But that was NOT God's choice. Jesus died for our sins, that they 'should not' perish, that through Him they 'might' be saved.

God's love for mankind is very clear, He does not want any to perish, but note when Jesus was crucified for our sins, the word, should not and might, God knows all will not accept His Son and what He went through for us.

Now this is the part I think you are not accepting.

John 3:18-19 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

God doesn't want any to be lost, for God so Loved the world, but those who are lost were lost because they chose the lie rather than Jesus, they chose sin, the world and the devil, not the only begotten Son of God. It was THEIR CHOICE - Not God's.

God knew beforehand who would reject Him, who would reject His Son and what He did and went through for us. Everyone has a choice, because God is omniscience, could see the beginning and the end, He told us in scripture what would happen, and that is confirmed in the scripture above and more, it is also further confirmed by the fact He wrote, the Names in the Book of life of those who will be saved, those that are not had/have the same choice as those that are saved, they just chose sin, the world and the devil, it was THEIR CHOICE, God DID NOT Condemn anyone.

John 3:20-21 (NKJV)
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Brother-Paul]

These two lines contradict each other. If God does not want any to be lost why did He make them knowing they would go to hell?

You are in an un-reconcilable spot.

If God was only a parent like us, your points are valid. We cannot control the ultimate choice our children make. They have true free will from us. God is a parent but He is ''''also'''' the Creator.

See, the fact that God is the creator, is not being considered in all your posts.

Calvinists are up front about their beliefs and perhaps make statements that would make you disagree with them at first. But I am telling you that your ultimate belief leans heavily toward Calvinism. They would teach from Rom 9 that God can make from a lump of clay a vessel unto dishonor and from the same lump a vessel unto honor. Who are we to question God. At least Paul and Calvinists acknowledge that it is God who ''can'' make a vessel unto honor or dishonor. But Paul is simply making a point that God is God. Paul explains in the rest of scripture that we can rejoice, because even though God is God, He is a good God. He chooses to NOT make vessels unto honor or dishonor. He chooses to give the gospel of Jesus to the 'whomsoever' will accept Him. IE Just because God can be wicked, DOES NOT MEAN HE is wicked! Does not mean He does what is wicked. We cannot question Him, sure, He is God we are but a mere mortal. But, He wants us to. He wants a bride. He wants children. He tells us, '''relax''' I am righteous in ALL my ways. I am good. I am love. I could be wicked. Unrighteous. Partial. But I am not.

Now some members here come with part Calvinistic beliefs on God's omniscience.

I am going to say this for the last time. All assumptions about God's foreknowledge, plans for those in hell...NEED to be filtered through the fact that God chooses to be good and righteous in ALL His ways.

All the heretical half truth teaching that leaves the door open for many to assume God has a ''secret dark side'' to Him, has to stop

Dear brother, I say again, Peace be with you.

The manner of your replies has changed, the way you are now replying it not necessary or wanted. I add the comments below then leave the topic.

I am not going to keep repeating my replies regarding God's love for mankind and it is man's decision whether to accept or reject God, which He know beforehand.

See Post 17 page 1 and my post before this one.

You talk of Calvinistic beliefs, let me confirm my friend, my beliefs are in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and in the Holy Scriptures. Commentaries are good, but they all have strong and weak points.

My beliefs are in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and in the Holy Scriptures. I, as you know, will always listen to peoples comments about scripture, always with an open mind, which I have done on the topic being discussed. I cannot see, how you cannot see, the Truth from the Word in my replies, I do understand that sometimes we can try explain something and it not come over as hoped, for that I would always say sorry, but on this topic now you seem to be saying, are saying, ALL/EVERYONE is wrong but yourself.

Peace be with you.

 

[KingJ]

I am not going to keep repeating my replies regarding God's love for mankind and it is man's decision whether to accept or reject God, which He know beforehand.

I just don't know how you cannot deal with the elephant in the room.

You say you believe ''it is mans decision''. Brother Paul, If you believe God is the Creator and has foreknowledge on this matter, how can you say that?

You have not dealt with this. You have danced around it as has everyone else.

In your defense, you are not trying to espouse a partial God. My gripe is that you are leaving the door open for readers to gather that from your statements.

Meditate on the fact that if it can be proven that knowing something is wicked. God chooses to not know it.

Many Christians believe God limits His omniscience to allow for true free will.

 

[KingJ]

Go back to POST 17, Page-1

God is not evil, no one said He was. God IS NOT Evil. We all agree so drop that comment please.

How can I? You say He has perfect foreknowledge of who will be in hell and who won't....and you believe He is the Creator of ALL.

You are espousing a partial God and simply ''saying'' you are not. Partiality is evil.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There are deeper truths to consider on 'prophesy''.

God knew / wanted to be very pro-active / involved in everything related to the cross. So His prophecies would be seen through. Example, I plan a birthday party for my kid. I book a clown. I book a jumping castle. I buy a present. These are known be me. These are things I can accurately prophecy.

However, Jesus going to the cross is a different matter. For Jesus to be a 'worthy' sacrifice He only had to die. There was no reason, God could not have come down to earth for they day and gone to the cross. The criteria for a worthy sacrifice would be fully met.

But instead, we see God take a different approach. He does not just want Jesus to go the cross. He wants Jesus to be 100% separated from Him Matt 27:46. A Lamb to the slaughter Isa 53:7. Grow up with a human family. Be exposed to temptation and sin. He is not going to ''cheat''. I often wonder why this was so important for God. It is because God wants us to grasp that He is going to deal with mankind respectfully. He wants to be fair and just with us. Good and righteous. Upright and Holy. No disrespect. No lies. No fake'ness. IE Jesus had 100% free will just as we do.

Jesus had the ability to call 1000 angels and not go to the cross. He knew God will still be ok with Him. Which makes what Jesus did so much more.

We must not lesson this. Jesus had 100% free will to say YES or NO to the cross.

We undermine / mock all the effort God has gone through to make this truth a reality for us. Free will is evidenced by all those things Jesus endured that He did not have to. Likewise God honors each of us with true free will.

As such, I do believe, God was hopeful of Jesus going through with the cross. If He was a betting God, He would probably bet 999:1, but there was the 1. There has to have been the '1'. Otherwise Jesus did not have free will. We do not have true free will.

Do you believe we have true free will? Do you believe God can't be surprised? All I can say is that ALL the evidence points there.

You show me a scripture where God says '''Jesus will die on the cross'' and I show you a scripture where Jesus says ''can you take this cup from me?'' and then from His free will ''chooses'' to give in to the will of God, as you quoted the first part of that scripture ''if it be they will''. Jesus did not ''have'' to say that. He chose to.

Dear brother,

Forgetting your first paragraph, prophesies are only prophesies if you prophesied you were going to buy them ahead of time, then purchased them and gave them as presents. I feel you put it the other way round in your explanation but, that is not what we are discussing here, so we move on.

I don't totally agree with your statement in paragraph two... 'But instead, we see God take a different approach. He does not just want Jesus to go the cross. He wants Jesus to be 100% separated from Him Matt 27:46. A Lamb to the slaughter Isa 53:7.'

God didn't want Jesus to go to the cross, but He knew, the old sacrifice would end and Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice, taking place of the old system. It was prophesied beforehand.

Matthew 27:46 (NKJV)
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Isaiah 53:7 (NKJV)
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.

I agree with the scriptures, don't get me wrong here, but I feel it wasn't that God wanted to be 100% separated from Jesus His Son, it was for that horrible, but minute time, that must have felt unending, when Jesus had to experience the sins of the whole world upon Him. Here is another consideration brother, how could a loving God let His One and Only Son, die, be crucified, take on sin which God hates, not one persons sins but the sins of the whole world. But He did, He had to, so that the world He loves, including Gentiles and Jews, could come to Him and be set free from their sins, and be saved.

What a weight Jesus had to bare, what a weight the Father had to bare, yet He did it because He so loved the world. Yet He knew then, as He knew at the beginning, even allowing His Only Son to suffer and shed His Blood in this way for our sins, many will STILL CHOOSE to reject Him, it is their choice.

God is Love, Jesus appeared to have a choice, He was faithful in all the Father requested, He did it to bring Glory to God, He did it to fulfil scripture, He did it for us because, God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so loved the world.

We remain eternally grateful, in Jesus Name Amen

 

[Brother-Paul]

I just don't know how you cannot deal with the elephant in the room.

You say you believe ''it is mans decision''. Brother Paul, If you believe God is the Creator and has foreknowledge on this matter, how can you say that?

You have not dealt with this. You have danced around it as has everyone else.

In your defense, you are not trying to espouse a partial God. My gripe is that you are leaving the door open for readers to gather that from your statements.

Meditate on the fact that if it can be proven that knowing something is wicked. God chooses to not know it.

Many Christians believe God limits His omniscience to allow for true free will.

It is easy to type something and think at the time you have covered the main points, they were covered earlier in Post 17 but just to clarify regarding the comment regarding it being man's decision.

God gave us all choice, it is our decision whether we accept God at His Word and be saved or not.

Now step back to the beginning, God gave all mankind this same choice, but because He is omniscient, all knowing, He knew ahead of time who would accept or reject the choice He gives us.

Therefore with His knowledge, of all things from the alpha to the omega, that only He has, He put the names in the Book of Life who will be saved.

He didn't want any to be lost, For God so Loved the World, but He knew who would choose to accept Him and who who choose not to.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in the most recent post.

Blessings

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- you're suggesting that Jesus Christ had 'free will' to choose to or Not to go to the cross to shed His blood for us. Jesus Christ's purpose For being on this earth Was To Die on the cross for us. There was Never any chance that He wouldn't do that. And He Would be raised from the dead bodily. THAT secured our salvation. THAT began Christianity.

God's Word says He is omniscient. Which means He has all-knowledge of who will and who Won't accept His gift of salvation.

IF there is an 'elephant in the room' -- it is of Your creation. There Are Biblical truths that YOU won't accept -- thus -- YOU have created whatever 'elephant' you see.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God incarnate -- Jesus Christ being born into this world was both 100% deity AND 100% human man. God being a Spirit could not die. Jesus Christ as God's Son, could. He was on this earth to live life as a human being -- was tempted like we are and resisted those temptations. He quoted Scripture to satan when he was in the desert being tempted. Rebuking him. Jesus Christ became the perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. His blood was required to redeem mankind. The human part of Him did shy away from the pain and suffering He knew He would be suffering. But there was never any question of Him not experiencing that cross In Our Place. And sure -- He's all-powerful so that , yes, He Could have called those 10,000 angels to deliver Him,but he knew He would go through with it. It was planned from the beginning of Time.

And -- Yes, God Did have to take His eyes off Jesus Christ while He took all of our sins upon Himself and died with them. It WAS a horrible time -- it affected nature. It affected all of human-kind. Without THAT -- everyone Would be doomed to spend eternity in lake of fire and brimstone.

And THAT is simply how it is.

Without the shedding of blood , there is No remission of sins. WITH the shedding of innocent blood -- there Is remission. But only if it's accepted. And Only God knows who will and who won't. He is the Only One with that knowledge.
WE are told to go unto the 'world' and share the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen. The Holy Spirit does the convicting and the 'saving'.

So -- are 'we' going to accept God's Word or continue to argue / complain about it. That is a choice needing to be made.

 

[Brother-Paul]

How can I? You say He has perfect foreknowledge of who will be in hell and who won't....and you believe He is the Creator of ALL.

You are espousing a partial God and simply ''saying'' you are not. Partiality is evil.

You are back to the wheel, repeating yourself, you have already said ALL are wrong you are right.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Brother-Paul -- you've been abundantly, wonderfully clear in all of this. Just pray that KingJ. will, at some point ,understand it also.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I just don't know how you cannot deal with the elephant in the room.

There is no elephant in my room brother.

You will tell me next it is a white elephant

:wink:
(Nothing meant disrespectfully regarding the Word or yourself)

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- chuckling about the 'white elephant'

 

[Brother-Paul]

@ Brother-Paul -- you've been abundantly, wonderfully clear in all of this. Just pray that KingJ. will, at some point ,understand it also.

Many thanks for the kind comment sister.

I join you in prayer in agreement, in Jesus Precious Name.

God is Love, omniscient Love, Love sometimes hurts God, it often hurts us. But.....

1 Corinthians 13:4-13 (NIV2011)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love you sister, in His Love.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- chuckling about the 'white elephant'

It is good to laugh.

:grin:

Smile and the whole world smiles with you. (God is smiling right now)

I felt it right to add it to tone things down a little, but I was concerned adding WHITE elephant that it may be taken the wrong way.

Keep... :smile:

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- if someone is going to be offended by saying 'White' elephant or taking That the wrong way -- then 'someone' needs to lighten up a bit.

Yes, laughter Is good for the soul. Well -- Chuckling is , too.

 

[KingJ]

@ Brother-Paul -- you've been abundantly, wonderfully clear in all of this. Just pray that KingJ. will, at some point ,understand it also.

I understand it well, I am trying to help you see that your explanation has a huge hole and leaves the door wide open to heresy.

 

[KingJ]

You are back to the wheel, repeating yourself, you have already said ALL are wrong you are right.

Is that how you read my posts?

You, Sue and Dave are just terribly evasive.

1 + 1 = 2.

Every person that passed primary school and is capable of reading this will agree with the fact that Creator + foreknowledge + hell + heaven = partiality.

Many Christians come terribly unstuck on this topic. In your guys defense, you are not ''saying'' He is wicked or that you support 5pt Calvinism. But you are still supplying the ingredients for an inevitable answer of Him being wicked.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@KingJ

Not once have we said God is wicked, not once.

You are turning round what has been said to suit what you believe.

God is Love, Amen

It is God's wish that None should be lost, but they will be lost, they will be condemned by their own inaction, by their will not to accept God's one and only son who died for their sins.

John 3:16-21

 

[Brother-Paul]

Is that how you read my posts?

You, Sue and Dave are just terribly evasive.

1 + 1 = 2.

Every person that passed primary school and is capable of reading this will agree with the fact that Creator + foreknowledge + hell + heaven = partiality.

Many Christians come terribly unstuck on this topic. In your guys defense, you are not ''saying'' He is wicked or that you support 5pt Calvinism. But you are still supplying the ingredients for an inevitable answer of Him being wicked.

Greeting @KingJ

What has been supplied is not some primary school mathematical conundrum, 1 + 1 = 2, followed by the algebretical example of...

1 + 1 + 1 +1 = partiality

What has been provided my friend is scripture, scripture which is very clear on the subject we have been discussing, that you cannot or will not accept.

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

You are turning round what has been said to suit what you believe.

I am turning nothing around. You guys are not properly explaining / dealing with the issue.

Consider the following two scenarios:

Scenario 1:

You build three cars. You impose a penalty of prison for any car breaking the speed limit. Any car consistently breaking the speed limit would be utterly destroyed. You are an expert builder, you know every detail to a car's engine, gearbox and aerodynamics.

The first car you build is a formula 1 racing car. The second is a semi fast sports car. The third is a slow car, that really has to try hard to break the speed limit.

Would anyone on the face of the earth with a working brain say you are impartial to every car? Hell No!

Scenario 2:

You live in Africa with three children. One is black, one is white and one is a Jew. You decide to go live in Europe. You know that if you go to Europe, your black child will be forced into slavery, your Jewish child sent to gas chambers and your white child will live a normal to nice life.

Would anyone on the face of the earth with a working brain say you are impartial to every child? Hell No!

Thoughts on Scenario 1:

For the creator to be good, surely every car has to have the same odds. DNA that can go either way. Good or evil. There can be absolutely no foreknowledge with DNA.

Thoughts on Scenario 2:

For a parent to be good surely every child should be able to live a good life? Why send all to Europe? If you have perfect foreknowledge, you should create the best option for a good life for each and every child.

Conclusion: For God to be good, foreknowledge cannot exist. If it does, then hell cannot exist.

My belief: If it can be proven that knowing something is evil, then God does not know it. He knows all there is to know. He is as good as He is great. He is truly a good God and hell is real.

Yours and other beliefs: God knows all, creates all. Even a cruel and torturous hell. He is good because He is God. We dare say He is not good. Everyone is destined for hell. Those not going there are thus privileged. Lucky. He cherry picks some to save. From before the foundations of the earth. I am one of the lucky ones going to heaven. Sorry for everyone else not ''chosen''. My message to the unsaved is this ''God is good and impartial, anyone can be chosen ''cough cough''.....hope they buy that''.

Where am I going wrong exactly?

 

[KingJ]

Greeting @KingJ

What has been supplied is not some primary school mathematical conundrum, 1 + 1 = 2, followed by the algebretical example of...

1 + 1 + 1 +1 = partiality

What has been provided my friend is scripture, scripture which is very clear on the subject we have been discussing, that you cannot or will not accept.

Blessings

Yes, let's talk scripture. I want you to focus on those that define God. Righteous Psalm 145:17. Light with no darkness 1 John 1:5. Impartial Acts 10:34.

So, you don't think......when considering His omniscience.....that His impartiality be a limiting factor?