Are the teachings of Jesus about the horror of Hell literal or metaphorical?

[Victor VanHeerden]

One is for the believer the other for the unbeliever- Do not mix them up.

If your name is in the Book of life you pass by the Great White Throne Judgement.

And onto the Bema Seat Judgement of Christ.

Principles and doctrines of Christ.

Heb 6:1,2,3, Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

1. Hell was prepared for the fallen angels as they first sinned. Satan tempted Adam. If Adam sinned first, God would say to angels, a place prepared for humans.
2. Heb 2:7 explains that there is not much difference between us and angels.

You have a warped interpretation of Matt 25:41 and keep pushing the idea that God will pervert justice by punishing humans with the punishment due for fallen angels.

Matt 25:41 is a scripture you have cherry picked to support a false view of God and hell.

God does not pervert justice Job 34:12 and God punishes each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.



If Satan was not the first and perhaps worst unrepentant sinner 1 John 3:8, unrepentant sinners would not be called children of satan.

As such the correct phrase is not '''children of X belong in heaven and children of Y in hell''. Unrepentant sinners belong in hell. Repentant sinners belong in heaven.



No. God does not pervert justice Job 34:12, is a righteous judge Psalm 145:17 and rewards each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

As such, if I go to hell I will not pay for Adam's sin. I will not pay for Satan's sins. A child can also understand that.



It is the 'one' job of a Christian to explain a verse like this. You are cherry picking it to push an unscriptural narrative of God being displeased solely because you 'in the wrong church'. Rejecting Jesus requires one to resist the Holy Spirit and harden their heart to repentance of sin. Accepting Jesus, requires one to soften their heart and be given a faith of Jesus being Lord as explained in more detail here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.



Correct. We only disagree on the punishment. Actual scripture verse your insinuated ''horrors''.



Incorrect. Paul is talking to the church, sure, about how those with unrepentant hearts judge others. It is a verse directly related to the wicked. You just need to read verse 5 to see the context of verse 6.

Rom 2:1-6 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.

There are many more scriptures I can quote. Every scripture that states God is just will work as well. Eze 18:20 is a probably the more popular one.

Eze 18:20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.



Not sure why you quoting these verses. Both the Bema seat and the White throne will be before Jesus / God. Both will be 'just' hearings.

 

[Samson2020]

Dear Brother,
Keep in mind that belief/repentance is also a necessity, but you might want to refer to the very chapter you quoted, Romans 11:15 for an answer to your question.

For if their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world, what [will] their acceptance [be] but life from the dead? Romans 11:15 NKJV
There are other versions that also use acceptance. Just saying.

I believe that your misunderstanding this verse, it says that if their rejection (by God) is the reconciling of the world,
what will their acceptance (by God) be but life from the dead. It's not their rejecting or accepting its God rejecting and accepting.

Romans 11:11 I say then, HAVE THEY STUMBLED THAT THEY SHOULD FALL? CERTAINLY NOT! But THROUGH THEIR FALL, TO PROVOKE THEM TO JEALOUSY, salvation has come
unto the Gentiles. Blinded in order to provoke jealousy.

And again I say you CANNOT believe UNTIL God gives you the FAITH necessary to believe. Nor can you repent until your blinders are removed.

The ideas of acceptance, repentance in order to be saved are false. "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance." We come to the chicken or the egg moment where we need
to see it is God who works ALL things after the counsel of His own will and chooses who will come to repentance through knowing His goodness. Or self righteousness that says
"I repented of my own volition or accepted therefore I deserve and the rest do not"?
"I chose you, you did NOT choose me." Thus God makes the move, not us. By Gods grace are ye saved.

Again, context. Who is Paul speaking to? (sigh)

Ephesians 2:8 is for anyone that is saved whether now, a thousand years ago, 50 yrs from today, no matter what continent,Jew or Gentile etc.... All scripture is used for instruction,
doctrine, reproof, correction etc...
If we simply say O it was written to the elect at Ephesus 2,000 yrs ago and it only applies to them then we do ourselves a great disservice as it is written to all of us to help us
understand what God is doing and continues to do on a daily basis.

Are you saying that I'm blinded by God? I sense that you are becoming frustrated and upset with me. Could it be that I'm having you consider context is the cause?

No not upset because your rebuttals have no merit for me. Not to be insulting but we have never seen eye to eye and so it is still today. But I must admit it does get tiring to keep writing
the same things over and over. In this part I might refrain from further input as nobody seems to understand or even engage except you who cannot understand what I'm saying.
Possible that this is due to not understanding His Righteousness which you freely admit. How can one have the rest added to them if they cannot understand Gods Righteousness?
Romans 3:22-27 and Ephesians 2:8 Is the explanation of Gods righteousness and how you are saved through Gods grace through the faith that He gives and thus is your Justifier.
Not from a work of "Acceptance" that you have or have not done. However this is also written to all who have and will be called so that they too can understand His righteousness
once their blinders are removed.

I love it that you use John 12:40! Again, and again, "CONTEXT". Who was Jesus talking about? Since you have mentioned previously that the New Covenant had not come into effect yet, it must mean that He was talking about the Nation of Israel and clearly not us!!!

Well all I can say here is you were one of the two men Jew and Gentile that became one man in the New Covenant. Whether anyone likes it or not they were under condemnation from
before birth by the will of God thus you were blinded. In this light, tell me who that cannot see or hear today fits this scriptural implication? Everyone that has not yet been called!!
For gross darkness covered the people, ALL people.

The "context" issue you seem so adamant about really is a hard thing to apprehend because you want only those to whom the letter was written to apply. This would require that all
people to whom Paul or Jesus etc..ever spoke to only apply to them. Again I will remind that the infilling of the Holy Ghost continues daily to the newly called of God. So the handbook
(Bible) allowing them to understand why the Spirit speaks to them, why they speak in unknown tongues, why they are told to do things to further the kingdom, what they have
been selected to become etc... are all things that apply to them today just as they did to the elect 2,000 yrs ago.
This mindset is what keeps the "Church of Christ" and others from rejecting the gifts of the Spirit for they preach that exact same idea, namely that was
"ONLY for the early Church and Apostles." NOT FOR US TODAY
But that is not what Jesus taught.

I am curious about this additional comment you have made. Do, you believe that everyone in the World will "be called to begin the process of BECOMING a son of God. They remain vessels to dishonor until God calls them."

Will this happen before they die in this world?

In general the majority no, as the second death also brings forth a harvest. There will be some as God continues to add to the Church daily as He sees fit.
God perfected the first Son to be the one who baptizes with he Spirit of God, infusing His own overcoming Spirit into the hearts of the called whom the Father gives Him.
He tells us that whosoever overcomes as He did will sit in His throne with Him and that nothing shall be impossible to them.

Isaiah 59:21 speaks to the seed of Jesus having seed, and that Gods Spirit and words that God has placed on/in Jesus will never leave Him nor His seed, nor His seeds seed.
The hard part here is WHO IS THE SEED OF THE SEED of Christ? Keeping in mind that ALL are spiritual seed of the original perfected seed (Christ), and when does this take place?
We know in part, see in part, prophecy in part etc... Did Paul know more than Peter, Jude, James etc.... IMO most definitely yes. Even Peter writes that some things Paul speaks of
are difficult to understand. But much known, much required??
The seed of the seed cannot be until at least the start of the second death, the beginning of a new week, day 8.
Perfected seed, as shown by Jesus, is used to sow into the hearts of men to bring them into the intended perfection that God has always had in mind. The pearl of great price worth
losing your life for is being a part of the first perfected group of seeds.
He is procreating Love (Agape) which is His substance and will also be ours once perfected.

 

[KingJ]

Yep.

Are you saying Hell has different departments so that levels of punishment vary?

Satan - as the ring leader gets the most and worst?

Beguiled fallen heavenly angels - next in line for lesser pain?

Then human Children of Satan - for the least?

If God says He will punish each according to their deeds and that He is a just judge, we will definitely see differing punishments.

I have explained before that I believe scripture points to an initial punishment for all our sins and then a punishment of fire every time we sin.

As for the suffering of angels vs humans. You still not grasping that there is little difference between us and them Heb 2:7. It could be some fallen angels are punished lighter then some humans for sure.

 

[KingJ]

Some more as well.

Depicting the consequences of the wrath/anger of God being meted out as fair and just punishment upon the wicked. And the fact that God will NOT withdraw his punishment, nor spare it nor feel any pity for those under it.

Esk 7:4 For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the Lord!’

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Deut 32:22 For my wrath is a flaming fire, burning to the deep parts of the underworld, burning up the earth with her increase, and firing the deep roots of the mountains.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the profane. Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burning?

Hebs10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You were corrected on what you said regarding Rom 2:6 and now you spam other verses. Do you want to discuss any verse here? What is the relevance?

 

[KingJ]

One is for the believer the other for the unbeliever- Do not mix them up.

Why are talking about this? Where did I mix them up? Rom 2:6 does not speak directly to the Bema seat judgment. You made a false statement.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Jesus is literal without a doubt.

Yep.

Most Roman Catholic and Evangelical Christians and even probably most Christians would agree that the teachings on Hell by Jesus are literal. Which would mean an everlasting punishment in a literal hell, with fire and brimstone, unquenchable fire and destruction, suffering, torment and pain.

The metaphorical view of hell is that unrepentant sinners are merely banished from God's presence forever. And put in a type of solitary confinement.

Since nothing could be as harsh as eternally conscious suffering in flames of fire, the metaphorical view understandably softens the horrific tortures of hell.

But it is not what Jesus taught and it nullifies the Cross of Jesus Christ. And the preaching of the Gospel.

If no one will suffer an literal eternal punishment in a fiery hell then there is less motivation for missionary work or evangelism, and less of a need to preach correct doctrines. The substitution/atonement doctrine says Lord Jesus paid our punishment on the cross, but if there is less or no punishment, then why did He need to do this at all?

Why die to save human beings from solitary confinement or extinction or a lesser softer punishment? To cease to exist is no punishment at all and therefore nothing to save anyone from. Nor is to be banished from the power of God. Most on earth live there at the moment.

To escape a literal hell is something to escape and be saved from.

Can you see this problem?

 

[KingJ]

Since nothing could be as harsh as eternally conscious suffering in flames of fire, the metaphorical view understandably softens the horrific tortures of hell.

An agonizing fire described in Luke 16 is not metaphorical. If you properly read Luke 16 you will also see that the fire is definitely not on par with something like torture in a brazen bull / what you and many others insinuate fire in hell will be. As such, I keep stating that you and others are adding to scripture what is not there.

That and the fact that you and others seem to completely and utterly ignore the fact that God is good Psalm 136:1, just Job 34:12, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and will punish according to deeds Rom 2:6.

If God put anyone in an eternal fire where you are cooked alive like in a brazen bull, He would not be good, just, righteous in all His ways and punishing according to deeds. Do you see why you are teaching falsely? You read and interpret scripture with a carnal mind. People arrive at Dante's inferno depiction from verses simply stating ''fire'' because they are wicked, filled with hatred and incapable of judging matters properly. Paul rebukes Christians who cant judge matters better then the unsaved in 1 Cor 6. He even says we will judge angels in 1 Cor 6:3. I feel terribly sorry for the angels judged by those who interpret ''fire'' as Dante's inferno. But then I guess these people may not even be in heaven to judge anyone. God is not the devil. It would be really nice if all stop teaching He is.

 

[KingJ]

Why die to save human beings from solitary confinement or extinction or a lesser softer punishment? To cease to exist is no punishment at all and therefore nothing to save anyone from. Nor is to be banished from the power of God. Most on earth live there at the moment.

To escape a literal hell is something to escape and be saved from.

Can you see this problem?

Your focus is all wrong. God died to make humans, a creation, a part of His family in an unbreakable blood covenant. Jesus was not sent to save anyone from hell. In the OT people got themselves into Abrahams bosom. If Jesus never died, there would still be people there and it would not one-day be thrown into the lake of fire. People choose hell / the bad side of Hades / lake of fire when they choose to not repent of their sins and be washed by the blood of Jesus.

Hell is a nice place from God's doing. He cannot make a place of torture. The devil could and would. Not God.

However, hell will be a bad place. Eternal separation from good people and a good God. Permanently surrounded by unrepentant sinners. A punishment with an agonizing (not torturous) fire every time we sin. That is torment for sure.

We need to preach and envision 'Dante's inferno' as we are humans who are incapable of grasping eternal punishment. No good person on this planet would torture someone. It is only what evil people do. God is not evil. Still praying and waiting for Christians to grasp their God is not the devil.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

That and the fact that you and others seem to completely and utterly ignore the fact that God is good Psalm 136:1, just Job 34:12, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and will punish according to deeds Rom 2:6.

Yep its understandable that there are some believers struggling with questions about a literal hellish Hell who might be tempted to think it's unfair, unjust, and even unloving or even evil for God to allow any degree of eternal hellish punishment for unrepentant sinners who reject Jesus,s Salvation. They struggle to reconcile a loving, merciful God with the concept of a literal hellish hell.

Agreed scripture does affirm God's nature as merciful, kind, and loving, but it's important to remember, above all, God is also a holy God.

Lev 19:2 ....Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy
1 Pet1:15 .. But as he which has called you is holy, so be you holy in all manner of conversation

God does not tolerate sin whatsoever.

For He IS HOLY.

Furthermore, God knows every person's heart as numerous verses testify and he gives every individual an opportunity to repent and be saved.

Acts 17:26-27 ...that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us...

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

God can and will justly and rightly assign both eternal rewards in Heaven for the faithful and eternal hellish punishment for those deserving of it. His wrath/anger is meted out as fair and just punishment upon the wicked.

And He will NOT withdraw his punishment, nor spare it nor feel any pity for those under it. As the following scriptures suggest.

Esk 7:4 For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the Lord!’

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Deut 32:22 For my wrath is a flaming fire, burning to the deep parts of the underworld, burning up the earth with her increase, and firing the deep roots of the mountains.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the profane. Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burning?

Hebs10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Jesus was not sent to save anyone from hell

Yep he was.

Luke 4:18 -19 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

Rom 1:16 the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

Its what Salvation means :

Salvation from what?

From sin and its consequences. The Good news is that we can go to heaven because of the sacrificial atonement of the blood sacrifice of Christ setting us free from the consequences of our sin.

What are the consequences of sin and being found at the Great White Throne Judgement clothed in your own self righteousness.

Hell is the consequence.

The good news is that we don't have to suffer the consequential punishment for sin.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Samson2020

Oh, I agree with your point about Romans 11:15, and would even use support found in the Gospels, but since it predates the New Covenant according to you it wouldn’t apply. (shrug)

However, to give me time to pray, and meditate upon His Word I’ll post this and return later to addressing your last post #62.

So, I’ll change it up so as to not keep writing the same things over and over again.

After reading this and I appreciate much of what you are saying, though I don’t necessarily agree with all of it because it really is a viewpoint on who is being addressed in the verses being referenced which makes the difference as well as how it all fits together which is context (which you consider irrelevant).

Understanding, that in that day they did not have access to the entirety of the Bible that we have now. So, when God’s Word was referenced in the NT writings, they were referring to the OT for that is all they had to go by though they as believers were part of the New Covenant. I'm using the same reasoning that you do. Kind of like your mindset that the New Covenant not being in place yet, so His words were only directed to those who fell under the Old Covenant.

Your quote: "The way that leads unto life wasn't even manifest yet in that the New Covenant had not yet been ratified. The Mosaic law was still in effect when He spoke those words."

One of the reasons I don’t agree with your position is that one must believe that God never gave humanity from Adam & Eve till now, free will as in their case, a choice to pick the fruit or not; or once Jesus came on the scene to accept Him or reject Him are irrelevant to being Saved, because they will “all” be saved anyway.

Unless when you say “all” you mean that all will be drawn to Jesus. However, there is no evidence to this historically being the case at “all”. Also, scripturally there is evidence that this won’t be the case, because they are identified as unbelievers, and are deceived by the Adversary to not believing.

I guess he wants company in Hell, so as to not be alone with other fallen Angels, but that speaks to something else with your doctrine you can’t believe in. Unless you believe that the fallen angels will also be saved, and Hell is erroneously mentioned as a habitat for both the fallen angels and unbelievers for eternity.

I’ll be honest that the “All” doctrine is a nice one, because no matter what happens one is saved. Meaning no matter what religion, I believe in or not, or how heinous an act I or others engage in commit, that eventually “all” will be saved, so there is nothing loss. I could even curse God like Stalin did on his death bed, but all is forgiven. Though when he might have been drawn is not obvious to me.

In closing this post so I can get back to your #62, I can’t help but be sad, because, if you are wrong, you have the ability to deceive many, and if you are right, it’s irrelevant! That is something I’m not taking a chance on, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will provide you the discernment/truth/understanding to know the difference.

I’ll share a quote I enjoy, because it speaks truth.

“Discernment is not a matter of telling the difference between right and wrong; rather it is telling the difference between right and almost right.”
Charles H. Spurgeon

As I said earlier, and Lord willing, I’ll get back to your post #62.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[MedicBravo]

If God says He will punish each according to their deeds and that He is a just judge, we will definitely see differing punishments.

I have explained before that I believe scripture points to an initial punishment for all our sins and then a punishment of fire every time we sin.

As for the suffering of angels vs humans. You still not grasping that there is little difference between us and them Heb 2:7. It could be some fallen angels are punished lighter then some humans for sure.

• Agreed. IDK about seeing those punishments. Good and evil will be separated but I doubt we'll see every single person be cast into fire.
• While not scripture, Dante's Infero was written and influenced by God and the Bible. If Hell is even remotely like that the knowledge of its existence 100% and the horrors many will still go into Hell while giving God the finger.
• We are far more different. They are created beings and Adam and Eve were the only created humans. As such beings they have the ability to shapeshift and innately are immaterial. Few similarities does not make sameness.

 

[KingJ]

Yep he was.

Luke 4:18 -19 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

Rom 1:16 the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

Its what Salvation means :

Salvation from what?

From sin and its consequences. The Good news is that we can go to heaven because of the sacrificial atonement of the blood sacrifice of Christ setting us free from the consequences of our sin.

What are the consequences of sin and being found at the Great White Throne Judgement clothed in your own self righteousness.

Hell is the consequence.

The good news is that we don't have to suffer the consequential punishment for sin.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I feel like you are not properly reading my posts. No, Jesus does not save us from hell. No, those scriptures you quoted do not say He does.

Jesus took all from Abraham's bosom to heaven. This is not saving people from hell, they were never in hell, just read Luke 16.

All mankind is in a state of death / separation from God. Jesus restores that union with God. That is salvation. Salvation is not a get out of jail free card.

As I said, if Jesus never died, there would still be an Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom was not a hell. It was a place in death, sure, but Luke 16 is clear there was no fire or torment there.

 

[KingJ]

Yep its understandable that there are some believers struggling with questions about a literal hellish Hell who might be tempted to think it's unfair, unjust, and even unloving or even evil for God to allow any degree of eternal hellish punishment for unrepentant sinners who reject Jesus,s Salvation. They struggle to reconcile a loving, merciful God with the concept of a literal hellish hell.

I would not say we struggle. It is more a case of false teaching is so crystal clear. Many come along and espouse a doctrine from the pits of hell that sounds like it is coming straight out of the devils mouth.

When scripture says God is righteous in all His ways, I guess many read it as 'He is not righteous in all His ways'. Or 'He is righteous in all His ways excluding the vastly unknown future home of the wicked'.

I think many have forgotten how to read.

I don't struggle at all to reconcile hell with a good God, do you? If you were God and had a creation that never wants to repent of their sins. 1. You will need to separate them from those that do as nobody, absolutely nobody wants an unrepentant rapist, thief, pedophile, murderer, back biter living next door. 2. You will need to punish them every time they sin as sin entails hurting someone. No good God can allow someone to be hurt without punishing the perpetrator. There you go, eternal hell. There will be a lot more to hell. Just as there was to earth when God only explained a few terrible things to Adam and Eve about earth outside Eden. But what further awaits those en route to hell were not necessary to be included in scripture for the same reason an explanation of all the good things on earth was not given to Adam and Eve.

I do firmly believe we will all be truly surprised by the A-Z of what exactly takes place in hell.

Agreed scripture does affirm God's nature as merciful, kind, and loving, but it's important to remember, above all, God is also a holy God.

Lev 19:2 ....Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy
1 Pet1:15 .. But as he which has called you is holy, so be you holy in all manner of conversation

God is holy 'because' He is good, righteous and light with no darkness 1 John 1:5. If He were not these, He would 'not' be holy.

Holy = adjective. ho·ly ˈhō-lē holier; holiest. : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness. : divine

In your defense, you are not alone on this slander of the word holy. Many here have typed the exact same sentence as you. It seems to be the go to line when people want you to swallow a turd about God.

God does not tolerate sin whatsoever.

For He IS HOLY.

God does tolerate sin, why do you say He does not? Scripture?

Only God is truly good Mark 10:18. We are sinners made perfect to Him Heb 10:14. We never stop sinning. Do you think humans will one-day be demigods? Pleas see point 5 in the OP here False teaching.

I could quote a hundred scriptures for you on God judging the heart. He does this because we are not and never will be perfectly sinless like Him. All angels in heaven sin right now. That is why we will judge them when we get there 1 Cor 6:3.

Furthermore, God knows every person's heart as numerous verses testify and he gives every individual an opportunity to repent and be saved.

Acts 17:26-27 ...that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us...

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

God can and will justly and rightly assign both eternal rewards in Heaven for the faithful and eternal hellish punishment for those deserving of it. His wrath/anger is meted out as fair and just punishment upon the wicked.

Agreed. Now why don't you believe this? You just said He will dish out fair and just punishment to the wicked.

And He will NOT withdraw his punishment, nor spare it nor feel any pity for those under it. As the following scriptures suggest.

Esk 7:4 For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the Lord!’

Nothing wrong with punishing the wicked for their sin when they don't want to repent of it. Have you ever met a person like that? Someone who no matter how much you plead with them, they will simply not soften their heart and repent.

Any and every good person on the planet will agree with the need to punish the wicked who do not want to repent of their sins.

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

God and only God is able to judge the depths of a heart Jer 17:9-12. Angels included.

This verse does need others for context. It was not merely that they sinned, their sin was at a mortal level. Sin full measure. It is a very long discussion as there are many scriptures on sin and perfection to consider.

Deut 32:22 For my wrath is a flaming fire, burning to the deep parts of the underworld, burning up the earth with her increase, and firing the deep roots of the mountains.

God does not beat around the bush. He says fire, fire, fire, fire. That is because there will be fire and He wants us to know that without any shadow of a doubt. This is why what Jesus says in Luke 16 was so necessary. It sheds perfect light on the type of fire. No Christian should ever state 'fire, fire, fire' without referencing Luke 16.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the profane. Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burning?

Why do you keep quoting scripture on fire? I have agreed hell is a bad place with fire.

Yes, agreed, there is fire and it is everlasting. Now please for the love of scripture, grasp the other scriptures in the bible that I have given you for much needed context.

Hebs10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This verse opens a whole discussion on OSAS verse non-OSAS and has a lot of context to consider. The underlying point here is that this would be an individual that has grieved the Holy Spirit and pulled the middle finger to God after tasting Christianity and treated the blood covenant as common. An NLT translation words it 'have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common'.

This is not speaking to a Christian. Sorer punishment then who? I guess if there was an average for those that go to hell, people like this and false teachers would receive harsher then the average punishment. This verse was a good find by you, it supports differing punishments in hell. Many don't get the opportunity to taste Jesus and Christianity. It does make sense that those who do this show more disdain for God then the 'average' sinner and should get a harsher punishment I guess.

 

[Butch5]

There are scores of verses in the Gospels about Hell which would point to the fact that no other biblical figure speaks about hell more often than Lord Jesus Christ. Considering that He was God in human flesh, surely no one knows more about hell than Him. He was merely pointing out the terrible and horrifying eternity that awaits all those who reject the provision of Christ’s blood atonement for the forgiveness of their sins.


His teachings on Hell can be summarised as such: Hell is the place of conscious, eternal torment where peoples experience God's punishment for their sin; an “eternal fire” prepared for the devil and his angels, but also for those who join them in their rebellion against God.

The "horror" of hell is such that Jesus says, "if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43).

He refers often to hell being a place of : “Punishment and torment”, “eternal fire” “fiery furnace” he also spoke of hell using other terms, :“destruction,” “fire/flame,” “lake of fire”, “fire and brimstone”, “bottomless pit”, “condemnation", "perish”, “eternal and everlasting torment”, and “separation from his power”.


The Apostles Peter and Paul carried on the teachings about hell.


2 Peter 3:9 …...., not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


2Thes 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; “


So the NT teaches that hell, is an awful place where the "faithless and sinful souls" go to be eternally punished; the exact opposite of heavenly bliss where the "faithful IN Christ" go as a reward.

Actually, Jesus never used the word hell. Hell is an English word. Jesus spoke of hades, which is the grave. He also spoke of Gehenna which is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, located just outside of Jerusalem. The concept of hell as a place of eternal torment comes from the minds of men. It's a concept that has been forced onto the Scriptures from those who hold to such a doctrine. These people then translate the Scriptures with this idea influencing their thinking and as such they write it into their translations. This is known as translator bias. Every translation suffers from translator bias. There is no way around it. Therefore, we must investigate that bias to see if it is correct or not. In the case of hell, it is not correct. Translators have manipulated words and phrases such as to impose this idea onto the text of Scripture. Rather than grab a few passages of Scripture out of context we need to study the entirety of God's word on the subject to conclude the Biblical position.

 

[Butch5]

I feel like you are not properly reading my posts. No, Jesus does not save us from hell. No, those scriptures you quoted do not say He does.

Jesus took all from Abraham's bosom to heaven. This is not saving people from hell, they were never in hell, just read Luke 16.

All mankind is in a state of death / separation from God. Jesus restores that union with God. That is salvation. Salvation is not a get out of jail free card.

As I said, if Jesus never died, there would still be an Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom was not a hell. It was a place in death, sure, but Luke 16 is clear there was no fire or torment there.

John wrote this about 60 years after Jesus ascended to Heaven.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:12–13.

According to John, the only man who has gone into Heaven is Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

Yep its understandable that there are some believers struggling with questions about a literal hellish Hell who might be tempted to think it's unfair, unjust, and even unloving or even evil for God to allow any degree of eternal hellish punishment for unrepentant sinners who reject Jesus,s Salvation. They struggle to reconcile a loving, merciful God with the concept of a literal hellish hell.

It isn't so much that Christians struggle with this. It's that the lost struggle with this. This teaching has turned many away from God and Christ. Now, imagine you've taught this doctrine through your life and one day you stand before Jesus, and He tells you it's not true and then tells you how many people turned away because you taught this. That's a scary thought, is it not? Imagine if Jesus told us that 100 people were lost because were taught false doctrines. How horrible would it be to know that 100 people could have been saved if we never opened our mouths? How horrible would it be to know that we were the direct reason that 100 souls didn't come to Christ? How horrible would it be to know that instead of winning souls for Christ we were losing souls for Christ?

I don't know about you, but to me that's a horrifying thought. To think that I might drive one person away from the Gospel and Christ, is horrifying. If you agree, then wouldn't you also agree that it is of the utmost importance that we go to the greatest extent possible to make sure we are presenting the Gospel as accurately as possible? Isn't it of the utmost importance that we make sure that if we are uncertain of something we simply keep quite or tell people we don't know?

I've found so many Chrsitians that can't defend their beliefs, yet they will argue till they're blue in the face with an unbeliever that their doctrines are correct. Sometimes we do God a service by staying quiet. I believe it's better to remain quiet and let God send someone else to that person than to continually insist that doctrines are correct when we can't even prove it.

Please note, this is not directed at you personally. It is a general statement. I believe it's something we all should consider.

 

[Samson2020]

@

Oh, I agree with your point about Romans 11:15, and would even use support found in the Gospels, but since it predates the New Covenant according to you it wouldn’t apply. (shrug

Why wouldn't it apply as everyone ever born was shut up from the New Covenant until it was revealed/ratified by His death. Not sure I follow how what is written AFTER the
New Covenant was established, those words would not apply to ALL as the New Covenant is for ALL. Did it not replace the Old?

One of the reasons I don’t agree with your position is that one must believe that God never gave humanity from Adam & Eve till now, free will as in their case, a choice to pick the fruit or not; or once Jesus came on the scene to accept Him or reject Him are irrelevant to being Saved, because they will “all” be saved anyway.

Your assessment is correct
Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, EVEN OVER THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED AFTER THE SIMILITUDE OF ADAMS TRANSGRESSION, who is the
figure of Him that was to come."
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore as by one man(Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, for that ALL have sinned."
Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded(committed, bound, imprisoned, consigned) them(Us) ALL in unbelief that He might have mercy upon ALL."
Romans 8:20 "For the creature(includes us) was made subject to vanity, (carnal mind thinking it is God)NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who hath SUBJECTED the same in hope."

The giving of man a carnal mind was the biggest part of the condemnation brought on by the transgression of Adam. All, including you and me have been partakers. And this by design.

Unless when you say “all” you mean that all will be drawn to Jesus. However, there is no evidence to this historically being the case at all

John 12:32 "And I, If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me."

I’ll be honest that the “All” doctrine is a nice one, because no matter what happens one is saved.

True. Jesus' one act of righteousness brought justification for ALL, just as Adams transgression brought the condemnation for ALL. Romans 5:18 It is simply a matter of TIMES until God
reveals this to the ALL. We both know that death still reigns in our flesh due to being sinners and that still applies to ALL today. We ALL have lived under condemnation from in the womb, And again "YE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, NOT WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"
and we ALL shall live with the Father and the Son in eternity for our Lord Jesus has paid the price for ALL.Some who have been given the understanding of the gift of salvation through
Jesus Christ from the Father have begun their journey back to their Father. Those would never be able to start the RACE unless He called them. He chooses us, not we choose Him.
We cannot look at the ALL without understanding that God condemned ALL from Adam forward, but Jesus paid the sin debt for the same ALL. They just cannot believe this actually
washes away all our sin for the Father has not called them YET. It isn't their fault, this is where the Mystery of iniquity comes into play. If ALL believed when Jesus was alive He would
never have been crucified, but as it was the Fathers will for Him to be betrayed, whipped, beaten, rejected and crucified they were not allowed to understand, and Jesus was essentially
required to forgive them for they KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. Same kinda thing with Stephen. And us!

Meaning no matter what religion, I believe in or not, or how heinous an act I or others engage in commit, that eventually “all” will be saved, so there is nothing loss. I could even curse God like Stalin did on his death bed, but all is forgiven.

Well, did Jesus take away the sin of the entire world or not?
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming to him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD."
1 John 2:2 "and He is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."
John 6:39-40 Keeping in mind it is up to God to do the drawing of ALL men to Jesus, thus He becomes the Justifier of everyone who believes in Jesus. Romans 3:26
Why do we call it the GOOD NEWS unless what you preach is actually good news even for the blinded/hardened sinner??

Good conversation

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Samson2020

Your quote: "The way that leads unto life wasn't even manifest yet in that the New Covenant had not yet been ratified. The Mosaic law was still in effect when He spoke those words."

New Covenant was established, those words would not apply to ALL as the New Covenant is for ALL. Did it not replace the Old?

Re-read what I posted, because what I was referring to had nothing to do with Roman 11:15.

Your assessment is correct
Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, EVEN OVER THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED AFTER THE SIMILITUDE OF ADAMS TRANSGRESSION, who is the
figure of Him that was to come."
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore as by one man(Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, for that ALL have sinned."
Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded(committed, bound, imprisoned, consigned) them(Us) ALL in unbelief that He might have mercy upon ALL."
Romans 8:20 "For the creature(includes us) was made subject to vanity, (carnal mind thinking it is God)NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who hath SUBJECTED the same in hope."

The giving of man a carnal mind was the biggest part of the condemnation brought on by the transgression of Adam. All, including you and me have been partakers. And this by design.

Let me blunt here then. So, no free will. Okay. Then why are you even discussing this when it doesn't make a bit of difference regardless of who reads it? What part of what you are discussing all this time is relevant to salvation when all are being saved because they'll be drawn to it directly by God eventually, as was Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and the rest throughout history who killed millions who according to you must have been saved prior to death? You're spinning wheels to no affect then! Here's the bluntness. Let everyone alone because God is doing His will, and whether you post or don't post it affects the outcome not at all!!! Why not stop wasting everyone's time including your own in something that when it is all said and done changes nothing? Just saying and will probably say it again.

I'd answer the back and forth of the rest of your post, but in your truth it's irrelevant! Why waste both of our time, as I'll say it again, because it will change nothing?

I pray the best for you, because as I said, and is a part you didn't address though there was no question:

...I can’t help but be sad, because, if you are wrong, you have the ability to deceive many, and if you are right, it’s irrelevant! That is something I’m not taking a chance on, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will provide you the discernment/truth/understanding to know the difference.

I’ll share a quote I enjoy, because it speaks truth.

“Discernment is not a matter of telling the difference between right and wrong; rather it is telling the difference between right and almost right.”
Charles H. Spurgeon

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Samson2020]

Let me blunt here then. So, no free will. Okay. Then why are you even discussing this when it doesn't make a bit of difference regardless of who reads it? What part of what you are discussing all this time is relevant to salvation when all are being saved because they'll be drawn to it directly by God eventuallY

Simple. God uses the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save. 1 Co 1:21