Are the teachings of Jesus about the horror of Hell literal or metaphorical?

[Samson2020]

Then why are you even discussing this when it doesn't make a bit of difference regardless of who reads it? What part of what you are discussing all this time is relevant to salvation when all are being saved because they'll be drawn to it directly by God eventually, as was Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and the rest throughout history who killed millions who according to you must have been saved prior to death?

I never said that they were called yet, their turn may come during the second death which is totally misunderstood. The wages of sin is death. Not death then resurrection to eternal torment.

And I apologize for upsetting you, I thought you were actually receiving some of what was written. Obviously I was wrong on that.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Simple. God uses the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save. 1 Co 1:21

Preaching what exactly?

 

[Samson2020]

Preaching what exactly?

The Good News(Gospel) of the Kingdom of God. As Paul would say it I determined to know nothing other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Co 1:23 1 Co 2:2 For what? ALL sin!
We all know He knew much more but that is the only thing that mattered when speaking to anyone who as of yet had not been called. The rest would be totally
irrelevant until they were drawn to Jesus by the Father.
We on the other hand have moved past this initial truth and seek to be perfected in doctrine, knowledge and understanding. I.E. sanctified by the word. YES?

 

[Christ4Ever]

The Good News(Gospel) of the Kingdom of God. As Paul would say it I determined to know nothing other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Co 1:23 1 Co 2:2 For what? ALL sin!
We all know He knew much more but that is the only thing that mattered when speaking to anyone who as of yet had not been called. The rest would be totally
irrelevant until they were drawn to Jesus by the Father.
We on the other hand have moved past this initial truth and seek to be perfected in doctrine, knowledge and understanding. I.E. sanctified by the word. YES?

The Word being Jesus, which is His name, then yes.
However, not really relevant, is it? Maybe that's why God calls it foolishness. There are places that never hear the preaching of the Gospel, but according to you will be saved.

There are Muslims who have blown themselves up but are not believers even to the last moment of death, unless you are saying that it's according to their own religious belief they are saved? Which I of course have a hard time believing. Oh, and please don't say they/Islam believe in Jesus, because you know what Paul said about believing in another Jesus.

Anyway, according to your doctrine you're still wasting your time.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

P.S. - You might reexamine the word "Multitude" that you are treating as "all" in Revelation. Take a look at its other uses, especially in Acts 5:14, 16 and it clearly is not talking about "all" people and not even the "all" of Israel or all of the surrounding area.

 

[Samson2020]

There are places that never hear the preaching of the Gospel, but according to you will be saved.

No, according to me they will learn of it during the different TIMES spoken of in Eph 1:10
However, speaking of free will. How exactly did these people BORN INTO a Muslim family choose to be a Muslim, or reject Christ whom they never heard of? Where is the free will to
be born a man, woman, free, slave, white, black, asian, hispanic, and to what parent(s), orphaned etc..... Are these not choices that God has made for you? Thus it is His will that you are what you are.
As Paul would say I am what I am by the GRACE of God. Who can say anything else?
Potter still has the power over the clay to make whatever vessel He needs.

 

[MedicBravo]

Actually, Jesus never used the word hell. Hell is an English word. Jesus spoke of hades, which is the grave. He also spoke of Gehenna which is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, located just outside of Jerusalem. The concept of hell as a place of eternal torment comes from the minds of men. It's a concept that has been forced onto the Scriptures from those who hold to such a doctrine. These people then translate the Scriptures with this idea influencing their thinking and as such they write it into their translations. This is known as translator bias. Every translation suffers from translator bias. There is no way around it. Therefore, we must investigate that bias to see if it is correct or not. In the case of hell, it is not correct. Translators have manipulated words and phrases such as to impose this idea onto the text of Scripture. Rather than grab a few passages of Scripture out of context we need to study the entirety of God's word on the subject to conclude the Biblical position.

So?
No. He used a real-world place to associate a place humans could understand with a place no human can understand.
No. Every translation says the same thing regardless of what words are used. The same message.
Hell is real and Jesus DID speak on it more than anyone.

 

[Christ4Ever]

No, according to me they will learn of it during the different TIMES spoken of in Eph 1:10
However, speaking of free will. How exactly did these people BORN INTO a Muslim family choose to be a Muslim, or reject Christ whom they never heard of? Where is the free will to
be born a man, woman, free, slave, white, black, asian, hispanic, and to what parent(s), orphaned etc..... Are these not choices that God has made for you? Thus it is His will that you are what you are.
As Paul would say I am what I am by the GRACE of God. Who can say anything else?
Potter still has the power over the clay to make whatever vessel He needs.

Actually, Scripture does and also doesn't reflect any in between time. So, in truth "according to me" meaning you, it is really irrelevant to belief. Its "foolishness" won't you say?

I'm sure you'll have no problem with v26, but then verses 27, and most especially 28 would be a problem. 28 in particular because it says "many" and not "all". Oh, you can start from v23, and it will be well with you until like I said v28.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV

Actually, you're arguing for my point in "free will". Why? Because in the example of Islam, they have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or they won't have been able to distort it in the important way that they have and in so doing have rejected its truth. Don't be blaming God, for man's ignorance/actions or you make Him a deceiver/liar. They do well enough on their own without any help, even without the Adversary helping them!

I would discuss Ephesians 1:10, but "context" is a bad word for you, and I'll not agitate you anymore in that respect, then the amount absolutely necessary.

Oh, and on the potter verse remember it's a question and not the answer or its significance. Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Romans 9:21 NKJV

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Samson2020]

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV

26 Jesus was crucified once for all, period. That was good enough for God and no other sacrifice required. The verse spoke to the idea of Jesus needing to be sacrificed often IF we were talking
according to the Levitical priests who offered yearly for the sins of the people Heb 9:25
27 is not really a problem at all. This first death is simply the completion of the first death time. As we read Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more;
DEATH HATH NO DOMINION OVER HIM. So death must still exist? And have dominion over somebody?
So who would death still have dominion over? Everybody not found written in the book of life who is cast into the SECOND DEATH. After all the judgement results in un born again humans
being cast into the second death. Which resembles the first and since the grave and death are there, people will die during that period.
If we look at the verse as saying a man can ONLY die once we miss the point. Its saying that it is appointed for man to die the first time then the judgement which is a second death. This
is part of the reason Paul so earnestly sought to make sure He was part of the first resurrection, so that death would have no dominion over him as well. Death is the last enemy that is
destroyed and as I have stated before the only way death (the penalty for sin) is destroyed is for ALL to come into life that Jesus purchased for them. And that won't happen until the
Father calls each and every man. 1 Co 15:22-23
28 Only those who look for Him, being the ones whom have received the GIFT from the Father, (born of the Spirit believers) alive or dead in the flesh.

Oh, and on the potter verse remember it's a question and not the answer or its significance. Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

You were almost there. Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED TO DESTRUCTION: AND THAT HE MIGHT MAKE KNOWN THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY ON THE VESSELS OF MERCY, WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

The riches of His glory being His likeness, being filled with all the fullness of God Eph 3:19
Remember the provoke unto jealousy??? Does this sound like a provocation to the vessels fitted to destruction in the first death?
And who fitted or prepared the vessels?

 

[Butch5]

So?
No. He used a real-world place to associate a place humans could understand with a place no human can understand.
No. Every translation says the same thing regardless of what words are used. The same message.
Hell is real and Jesus DID speak on it more than anyone.

This doesn't make sense. If it's a place no human can understand then using a known place to explain it is useless. One could make that claim if they're trying to foster Greek mythology. However, since this is a Bible forum we should foster Biblical ideas. The fact that Jesus tells us the name of the place and Isaiah tells us what will happen there in the future tells us it's literal.

It doesn't matter if every translation says it, it's still wrong. All that proves is they all believe the same thing.

I have several Greek texts available and I can assure you the word hell isn't in any of them.

 

[MedicBravo]

This doesn't make sense. If it's a place no human can understand then using a known place to explain it is useless. One could make that claim if they're trying to foster Greek mythology. However, since this is a Bible forum we should foster Biblical ideas. The fact that Jesus tells us the name of the place and Isaiah tells us what will happen there in the future tells us it's literal.

It doesn't matter if every translation says it, it's still wrong. All that proves is they all believe the same thing.

I have several Greek texts available and I can assure you the word hell isn't in any of them.

Inability to understand doesn't change anything.
When something cannot be understood by human minds, the Almighty used simpler things to explain something.
One can easily find the translations of all three into English and Hell is in the Bible.
English came from many languages and many of our words came from Ancient Greek.
rapturos = rapture
Don't play word games b/c it's not going to work.
I'll trust the many linguists and others who've accurately translated the Bible into every known language.

 

[Butch5]

Inability to understand doesn't change anything.
When something cannot be understood by human minds, the Almighty used simpler things to explain something.
One can easily find the translations of all three into English and Hell is in the Bible.
English came from many languages and many of our words came from Ancient Greek.
rapturos = rapture
Don't play word games b/c it's not going to work.
I'll trust the many linguists and others who've accurately translated the Bible into every known language.

Again, if something cannot be understood, no amount of explaining it will do anything. It can't be understood. Therefore, your statement doesn't make sense.

Sure all three can be found translated as hell. That's because as I as I said, translator bias is unavoidable. That's why we need to educate ourselves and not blindly follow what translators say. Remember what Jesus said, 'if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit'. Well, this is what we have in modern day Christianity. We have the blind leading the blind. That's why we have false doctrines such as this so widely accepted. Rather than doing as the Bereans and checking the Scriptures to see if these things are true, we have people blindly accepting the linguists and translators. "How could all of them be wrong" Is how the thinking goes. One has to ask, how could all of the evolutionists be wrong? How could all of the Calvinists be wrong? How could all of the Arminians be wrong? We could go on and on. Just because a large number of people believe something doesn't make true. All of these translators come out of Semenaries that all teach the same thing about hell. So why wouldn't we expect them all to say the same thing? We would. If you ask 10,000 calvinists if they chose God or God chose them they're all going to answer the same way. Why? Because they all believe the same thing.. that doesn't make them right. Personally I'll take the one word from Jesus over 10,000 translators.

Again, regarding hell, I have several Greek texts and the word isn't in any of them. The concept of hell as a place of torment is a pagan concept. That's why it's not found in Scripture. Translators believe it and try to insert it into the text of Scripture. That's why there are three completely different places in Scripture all translated to the same concept of hell. Further evidence of this is the fact that in the Old Testament they transliterated it rather than translated it. Thus we find the Valley of the Son of Hinnom instead of hell. However, in the New Testament the translators don't transliterate the same place. Instead they translate it using a pagan concept to support their theology. If you do some studying about how translations are made and see some of the decisions that go into the process you probably wouldn't blindly follow linguists.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Samson2020

26 Jesus was crucified once for all, period.

You actually mean the shedding of blood, death, and of course resurrection.

Because like Paul said "If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

26 Jesus was crucified once for all, period. That was good enough for God and no other sacrifice required. The verse spoke to the idea of Jesus needing to be sacrificed often IF we were talking
according to the Levitical priests who offered yearly for the sins of the people Heb 9:25
27 is not really a problem at all. This first death is simply the completion of the first death time. As we read Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more;
DEATH HATH NO DOMINION OVER HIM. So death must still exist? And have dominion over somebody?
So who would death still have dominion over? Everybody not found written in the book of life who is cast into the SECOND DEATH. After all the judgement results in un born again humans
being cast into the second death. Which resembles the first and since the grave and death are there, people will die during that period.
If we look at the verse as saying a man can ONLY die once we miss the point. Its saying that it is appointed for man to die the first time then the judgement which is a second death. This
is part of the reason Paul so earnestly sought to make sure He was part of the first resurrection, so that death would have no dominion over him as well. Death is the last enemy that is
destroyed and as I have stated before the only way death (the penalty for sin) is destroyed is for ALL to come into life that Jesus purchased for them. And that won't happen until the
Father calls each and every man. 1 Co 15:22-23
28 Only those who look for Him, being the ones whom have received the GIFT from the Father, (born of the Spirit believers) alive or dead in the flesh.

I noticed you avoided the "many" and not the mentioning of "all" in Hebrews 9:28. Which was the point I was trying to make. Like I said:

I'm sure you'll have no problem with v26, but then verses 27, and most especially 28 would be a problem. 28 in particular because it says "many" and not "all". Oh, you can start from v23, and it will be well with you until like I said v28.

The potter verse was for you.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Samson2020]

You actually mean the shedding of blood, death, and of course resurrection.

No because all that is not what is found in vs 26

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV

As seen from your post, 26 only addresses His sacrifice of Himself TO PUT WAY SIN. I would say that putting away sin is ALL sin and could include many references, but as to why some say
"many" I could only speculate that since He himself was sinless the "many" is ALL with the exception of Himself??
John The Baptist as a witness. John 1:29
St John as a witness. 1 John 2:2
Paul in Romans 5:18 "all people, everyone, all mankind, all men........." Pick a version.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift, for if through the offense of one (Adam) MANY? be dead, MUCH MORE the GRACE of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which
is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto MANY?
How many are without sin? None.

So "For God hath committed them ALL to disobedience, that He might have mercy on ALL."
"For God has imprisoned EVERYONE in disobedience so He could have mercy on everyone." Rom 11:32 Pick a version they all say the same thing ALL IS ALL.

Gal 3:22 For the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin, that the promise by faith (GIFT of God) of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Remember God is the Justifier of
he who believes in Jesus through giving of the faith(GIFT) necessary to believe. Romans 3:26 Right back to SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH GOD GIVEN FAITH. No one can boast if its a gift.
And no one can tell God who He can give the gift to. As written it will be ALL no matter who objects for He does whatsoever He wants.
No one deserves anything, but it was always Gods plan to do this for Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the propitiation for the sin of the entire world.

I understand that no one wants to believe they actually had nothing to do with their own salvation. But that is a fact as it is a GIFT, we cannot change that fact. Otherwise we would be
boasters of I accepted, or I believe. God is not looking for credit but He does tell us that He gives us the faith necessary to believe which then we are sealed with His Holy Spirit.

Will all mankind repent, MOST ASSUREDLY, once they have been made aware of the salvation provided by God, and actually understand it. Timing is up to the Father.

Example is found in Phl 2:11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father."

So what glory would God get from those confessing that Jesus is Lord if they were confessing due to torture? ZERO! This is not the idea found in the verse.
It tells us that once ALL have come into the life purchased by the sacrifice of the Son they truly will have the Holy Ghost and Life and will be saying Jesus Christ is Lord
happily, gratefully, willingly, knowingly, thankfully, and of a pure heart. This is to the glory of the Father. AND WHEN DEATH SHALL HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
No man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord (and actually know and mean it) except by the Holy Ghost.

I KNOW WERE NOT MOVING ONE ANOTHER SO IF YOU WISH TO LET OUR CONVERSATION GO I'M GOOD WITH THAT.

 

[Christ4Ever]

As seen from your post, 26 only addresses His sacrifice of Himself TO PUT WAY SIN. I would say that putting away sin is ALL sin and could include many references, but as to why some say
"many" I could only speculate that since He himself was sinless the "many" is ALL with the exception of Himself??
John The Baptist as a witness. John 1:29

No speculation there. Love your rationalization, but that would be only to just the "all" doctrine you adhere to. I would again speak of context, but not to you since you dislike it so.
Sorry, on the verse, because it's OC, and it must have been speaking to all the Jews spread out in the world!!!

Gosh, I'm starting to get the hand of how you do it!

Romans 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift, for if through the offense of one (Adam) MANY? be dead, MUCH MORE the GRACE of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which
is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto MANY?
How many are without sin? None.

So "For God hath committed them ALL to disobedience, that He might have mercy on ALL."
"For God has imprisoned EVERYONE in disobedience so He could have mercy on everyone." Rom 11:32 Pick a version they all say the same thing ALL IS ALL.

Scripture also speaks of repentance, which would require a self motivated action, and would speak of free will. But that's not what works for you since it's "all" God and nothing else. (shrug)
Again, why are you discussing something that is irrelevant/foolishness and unnecessary to Salvation? Quoting the methodology verse of preaching, by your doctrine is also irrelevant. Everything becomes irrelevant, even the Covenants because with or without, Old or New, Scripture or no Scripture, everyone is getting saved, right? At least according to the doctrine of "All" you adhere to.

That is your problem. Nothing was necessary, and what was provided is made inconsequential/irrelevant to the final outcome! It's like a game that God decided to play with Himself, by Himself, with everything else but pieces.

I KNOW WERE NOT MOVING ONE ANOTHER SO IF YOU WISH TO LET OUR CONVERSATION GO I'M GOOD WITH THAT.

As A Moderator I'll include the rest of the staff on this as well.
@Br. Bear @ladylovesJesus @Fragrant Grace @Chad

I agree we're not moving one another in this doctrine of "all". However, since I also wear the hat of Moderator, I will inform you that you will probably be banned. The Universalist/All Doctrine is not one that is accepted here on Talk Jesus. I've talked with other Staff concerning you, even prior to replying to your post. I wanted to see how ingrained your theology was in respect to being a Universalist. So, I guess I'll give you a chance to get your affairs in order before banning you from the site. That is if the rest of the staff agree. You are welcome to Private Message me or any of the staff, but as it now stands, you'll have to push your theology somewhere else.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Samson2020]

Just so were clear the posts were directed to you in response to whatever questions you posed to me. I am pushing no agenda for I know that only the Lord Himself can add understanding
to anyone. If the Lord be not the builder of the house then the house is built in vain.
We are simply having a conversation or so I thought, but as you eloquently put it:

. I wanted to see how ingrained your theology was in respect to being a Universalist.

So set up to BAN?? Thats OK I been banned before from here by you. And it isn't the only site that this has occurred. Just sorry to see the site so closed to any that have a differing view
or knowledge of what they see. Indeed we all see in PART etc.... So nobody has the whole thing right.

That is your problem. Nothing was necessary, and what was provided is made inconsequential/irrelevant to the final outcome! It's like a game that God decided to play with Himself, by Himself, with everything else but pieces.

No Nick everything that happened was/is necessary or God would not have bothered. He knew that man NEEDED to HAVE an understanding of GOOD and EVIL which were
both part of the same fruit, in order to be like God Gen 3:22 And that Adam would fail when tested by Satan. He also knew that He would condemn ALL men because of Adams
disobedience and give man over to a carnal mind.
He knew all of it right down to the last detail and that can be proven for He had already decided before the world was formed that Jesus, the captain of our salvation,
would take upon Himself OUR SINS and give Himself as a sinless sacrifice to God. It was all planned so that we who would become unrighteous could become the righteousness of
God through Christ Jesus. 2 Co 5:21
God could have slapped Adams hand and simply said ok have a few kids so the human race continues then you die. But He didn't, He condemned ALL men
because of what ONE man did. In like Fashion He justified ALL because of what Jesus did. Romans 5:18 11:32
I'm dumb founded that those 2 verses say nothing to you and seem to be simply dismissed because they don't allow for you to have earned your salvation in some fashion, but we both
know it is a GIFT, it's not something we can earn in any way shape or form. Thats Gods way of doing this and it doesn't sit well with any self righteous person because they believe in their
heart they deserve it, while others don't. As I have said before self righteousness will blind you to the righteousness of God. And that, and that alone is the problem.

In the beginning was the logos (plan), and the logos(plan) was with God, and the logos(plan) was God.

Tell me, in Eph 3:19 where it states "to know the love of Christ which PASSES KNOWLEDGE; that you MAY BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD.

Does not the PLAN of God show fulfillment in that we who were condemned to have the knowledge of good and evil have come full circle by Gods GRACE to start to understand
the love of Christ and eventually come to be filled with all the fullness of God?

The logos(plan) was God. Jesus was the first to come all the way through the process thus the first begotten from the dead. He now sits at the right hand of the Father and has
been called God by God. Can you not see the fulfillment of the logos in Him? And the same will happen for us for that was always the PLAN.
As John wrote IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE LOGOS(PLAN).

This is the reason God has done everything He has done with Jesus and man.

 

[Br. Bear]

Just so were clear the posts were directed to you in response to whatever questions you posed to me. I am pushing no agenda for I know that only the Lord Himself can add understanding
to anyone. If the Lord be not the builder of the house then the house is built in vain.
We are simply having a conversation or so I thought, but as you eloquently put it:

So set up to BAN?? Thats OK I been banned before from here by you. And it isn't the only site that this has occurred. Just sorry to see the site so closed to any that have a differing view
or knowledge of what they see. Indeed we all see in PART etc.... So nobody has the whole thing right.



No Nick everything that happened was/is necessary or God would not have bothered. He knew that man NEEDED to HAVE an understanding of GOOD and EVIL which were
both part of the same fruit, in order to be like God Gen 3:22 And that Adam would fail when tested by Satan. He also knew that He would condemn ALL men because of Adams
disobedience and give man over to a carnal mind.
He knew all of it right down to the last detail and that can be proven for He had already decided before the world was formed that Jesus, the captain of our salvation,
would take upon Himself OUR SINS and give Himself as a sinless sacrifice to God. It was all planned so that we who would become unrighteous could become the righteousness of
God through Christ Jesus. 2 Co 5:21
God could have slapped Adams hand and simply said ok have a few kids so the human race continues then you die. But He didn't, He condemned ALL men
because of what ONE man did. In like Fashion He justified ALL because of what Jesus did. Romans 5:18 11:32
I'm dumb founded that those 2 verses say nothing to you and seem to be simply dismissed because they don't allow for you to have earned your salvation in some fashion, but we both
know it is a GIFT, it's not something we can earn in any way shape or form. Thats Gods way of doing this and it doesn't sit well with any self righteous person because they believe in their
heart they deserve it, while others don't. As I have said before self righteousness will blind you to the righteousness of God. And that, and that alone is the problem.

In the beginning was the logos (plan), and the logos(plan) was with God, and the logos(plan) was God.

Tell me, in Eph 3:19 where it states "to know the love of Christ which PASSES KNOWLEDGE; that you MAY BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD.

Does not the PLAN of God show fulfillment in that we who were condemned to have the knowledge of good and evil have come full circle by Gods GRACE to start to understand
the love of Christ and eventually come to be filled with all the fullness of God?

The logos(plan) was God. Jesus was the first to come all the way through the process thus the first begotten from the dead. He now sits at the right hand of the Father and has
been called God by God. Can you not see the fulfillment of the logos in Him? And the same will happen for us for that was always the PLAN.
As John wrote IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE LOGOS(PLAN).

This is the reason God has done everything He has done with Jesus and man.

Nothing was necessary, and what was provided is made inconsequential/irrelevant to the final outcome! It's like a game that God decided to play with Himself, by Himself, with everything else but pieces.

Greetings,

@Samson2020 it appears you are suggesting that man had to go through some refining even though there was nothing wrong with Him to begin with?

It also appears that God sent forth His Son to do what He did not really have to do...if He had simply bypassed the 'game' that Nick @Christ4Ever referred to?

I ask you to be more careful in your judging my Brother Nick, regarding self righteousness. One can easily come to that conclusion reading your posts, if they want to. However, that is not what we ought to be doing, is it? From my perspective, that will earn your banning faster than most anything else. Be thankful that i can't find the ban button today.

I hear what you are saying regarding thinking you were simply discussing things and not neccessarily pushing any doctrine you believe in.

It always concerns me that professing Christians will believe in doctrine, before and in preference to Christ Jesus the Lord.

I understand that you firmly believe that all will be 'saved' but as you know, that has never been the concensus from a Biblical take. If we only look at Scripture [Old Testament], there are too many examples of the LORD pronouncing otherwise upon the wicked. One would have to delete a lot of portions from the Scripture to make allowance for your 'all' doctrine that, while it seems nice, is simply not God's way.

By the way, have you ever wondered how your doctrine looks from a worldly point of view?
As Nick pointed out, it would appear a very sick game that is played out, with horrid suffering, when the end result is that everything will be alright. One can almost imagine extra brownie points for those who suffered so horrifically and those who still do? Thanks for being good sports.
And what of those who know better and with diabolical evil, spit at God's grace?
Is there any justice and fairness... and righteousness in suggesting that such 'players' are ok because we have a nice doctrine that says that God won't get upset about injustice and He never really expected anyone to be kind?

your doctrine does not paint a very righteous picture of our righteous God.

Please refrain from continuing your doctrine push here.


I ask you appologise to Nick, also. His work here is not the easiest thing to do and of all the Mods I have ever had the honour to work alongside, he is the most patient and gentle of all. I can assure you he is, and has been, very, very slow at coming to the post above.
Please don't make a song about being banned from other places. It is not a tune that does any service to you. You have been asked and shown much patience.


Post in Peace


Bless you ....><>

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

It isn't so much that Christians struggle with this. It's that the lost struggle with this. This teaching has turned many away from God and Christ. Now, imagine you've taught this doctrine through your life and one day you stand before Jesus, and He tells you it's not true and then tells you how many people turned away because you taught this. That's a scary thought, is it not? Imagine if Jesus told us that 100 people were lost because were taught false doctrines.

The lost are won to Christ by his great love. It is the perfect concept of love. God sending His Son who died for us on a cruel Roman cross. This is the pinnacle of divine love and it heals hearts and lives, gives reason for living, and makes people worthy, lasting for eternity. Gods love is so wonderful that it cannot be measured or understood.

Jesus is the most worthy being in the Universe. He is the only begotten Son of God. He expressed his love in the most tangible way possible. He chose to suffer and die so that we could go to his mansion in heaven and not spend an eternity in Hell. Our sins are forgiven and we are made worthy and accepted in the beloved.

The Gospel of Jesus gives meaning and purpose to a failed life.

And that is why Jesus warned about hell more than any one before or since.

Many can testify that they became Christians because they were scared of "frying" in Hell forever after listening to an emotionally charged “hell fire and brimstone” Evangelist/Revivalist aka Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Johnathan Edwards, Charles Finney etc.

So you can rest assured that the "eternal fiery torment in hell" is a sound doctrine of most of Christianities denominations and branches.

It would not be advisable to change the main Christian view on Hell to one that suits sinners.

Hell is Hell.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Why do you keep quoting scripture on fire? I have agreed hell is a bad place with fire.

Yep a bad place with eternal unquenchable fire. A place of eternal painful fiery torture. A place of retributive punishment in that people who end up there deserved to end up there. At least that is the traditional Christian viewpoint.

Ten thousand centuries will come and go, and not one day in Hell will have ended. In the amount of time it takes a new universe to expand and collapse, not a single evening in the fiery furnace of Hell will have gone by. One will be fully awake to experience a nightmare above any nightmare ever experienced while alive. And an eternity of suffering awaits.

 

[Butch5]

The lost are won to Christ by his great love. It is the perfect concept of love. God sending His Son who died for us on a cruel Roman cross. This is the pinnacle of divine love and it heals hearts and lives, gives reason for living, and makes people worthy, lasting for eternity. Gods love is so wonderful that it cannot be measured or understood.

Jesus is the most worthy being in the Universe. He is the only begotten Son of God. He expressed his love in the most tangible way possible. He chose to suffer and die so that we could go to his mansion in heaven and not spend an eternity in Hell. Our sins are forgiven and we are made worthy and accepted in the beloved.

The Gospel of Jesus gives meaning and purpose to a failed life.

And that is why Jesus warned about hell more than any one before or since.

Many can testify that they became Christians because they were scared of "frying" in Hell forever after listening to an emotionally charged “hell fire and brimstone” Evangelist/Revivalist aka Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Johnathan Edwards, Charles Finney etc.

So you can rest assured that the "eternal fiery torment in hell" is a sound doctrine of most of Christianities denominations and branches.

It would not be advisable to change the main Christian view on Hell to one that suits sinners.

Hell is Hell.

Simply claiming it is so, doesn't make it so. Jesus didn't speak of Hell. He spoke of Gehenna and Hades, which are wrongly translated hell in our modern translations. As I pointed out, Gehenna is an actual location. Likewise, hades, is the grave. The modern concept of hell does not exist in the Bible. There is no place where disembodied beings are tormented, it's simply not there. It is sometimes "read into" the Bible by theologians who hold that view. Then the Bible is translated in a way to that would seem to support such an idea. However, when we look closely at the Scriptures, we find that that is not the case.

The biggest problem with the doctrine is that it drives people away from God, not toward Him.

 

[complete]

Subject heading:- Are the teachings of Jesus about the horror of Hell literal or metaphorical?​

Simply claiming it is so, doesn't make it so. Jesus didn't speak of Hell. He spoke of Gehenna and Hades, which are wrongly translated hell in our modern translations. As I pointed out, Gehenna is an actual location. Likewise, hades, is the grave. The modern concept of hell does not exist in the Bible. There is no place where disembodied beings are tormented, it's simply not there. It is sometimes "read into" the Bible by theologians who hold that view. Then the Bible is translated in a way to that would seem to support such an idea. However, when we look closely at the Scriptures, we find that that is not the case.

The biggest problem with the doctrine is that it drives people away from God, not toward Him.

Hello @Butch5,​

This is absolutely true, and I thank you for expressing it.

As to the question posed by the subject heading: - the answer is that the references made by our Lord to, 'Hell' (below), are literal, and not metaphorical. They refer to end time judgment.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Mat. 5:22, 29-30; Mat.10:28; Mat.11:23; Mat.16:18;
Mat.18:9; Mat. 23:15, 33;
Mar. 9:43, 45. 47,
Luk. 10:15; Luk. 12:5; Luk.16:23