Armageddon

jari · Nov 22, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30

Eric is there any proof that this theory is true? seems to me your letting you imagination fly and have no biblical basis for your theory. but your only superficially giving scripture references that have no proovable connection and are infact talking about entirely different things.

David777 · Nov 22, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
David,

The reason I didn't quote that part of the verse is the word then. The then happens three and a half times or years later according to Revelation 12:13-14

Revelation 12:13–14 KJV
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30. God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war till they flee to the river Arnon (Isaiah 16:3).

Attention Eric.

You placed emphasis on the word "then" and
forced the interpretation that "then" actually
means 42 months later. To support this absurd
interpretation you quoted Revelations 12:13-14.
The problem is simply that you neglected to again
quote fully from the relevant chapter. Here is the
information that is missing. When did the devil
arrive on earth.

Revelations 12:4-5
His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.
And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that
when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child,
one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught
up to God and to his throne,

The dragon stood before the woman who was about to
give birth. How can the dragon stand before the woman
if he is still in heaven? Because the dragon was cast out
at an earlier time, in fact before Christ was born. That
is what the text states Eric, your eschatology must encompass
all scripture not selected favorable passages to support
your viewpoint.

David777 · Nov 22, 2012

If the saints are raptured before the last 42 months
of the reign of the beast over the earth. You will have
to deal with the following glaring problem.

Revelations 14:9-12 (ESV)
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice,
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his
forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured
full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur
in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of
their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers
of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

It sure does appear that the saints must endure the reign of the beast.

David777 · Nov 22, 2012

Hello Eric, how is it going so far?

Sorry to provide obstacles to your viewpoint and
cause you grief but it is necessary to evaluate
every theology using the heat of the scriptures.

This is not a personal attack, so relax and enjoy
the difficult struggle that holding to a theology
imposes.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 23, 2012

jari said:
Eric is there any proof that this theory is true? seems to me your letting you imagination fly and have no biblical basis for your theory. but your only superficially giving scripture references that have no proovable connection and are infact talking about entirely different things.

Jari,

<style>  </style> It is difficult to explain what the Bible says about America in short posts. It took me a whole book to show all the passages and how they interact. Let me give you some.

Use only the King James Bible to see the connection between the passages in prophecy.

Isaiah 4:2-4 God will judge Israel with fire (nuclear) Isaiah 5:24-30 When the blast and fire fall on Israel and the heavens are darkened over Israel (6th seal) God will call an ensign from the other end of the earth to take a prey (women and children) back to the other end of the earth from Israel.

We are at the end of time because Israel the nation not desired has gathered Zephaniah 1:14-2:3
What nation on the other side of the earth from Israel would you expect to help Israel at a time of nuclear war? Only America.

Jeremiah 6:22 indicates, when Israel is attacked by the people from the north (Russia), God will call a great nation from the other side of the earth to help Israel. Only America could challenge Russia from the other side of the earth.

Revelation 12:14 says that the woman Israel will be rescued by a great eagle. America’s ensign is the eagle.

Zechariah 2:6-7 when the Jews are fleeing from the north (Russia) they should also get out of “the daughter of Babylon”. Now 2/3 of the Jews in the world that are not in Israel are in America. America is almost certainly the “daughter of Babylon” which will be the future kingdom of antichrist.

Revelation 16:10 tells us God will send darkness on the kingdom of antichrist before Armageddon. There will be a permanent solar eclipse set up over Israel and America will be the darkest area because it has no sun. The eclipse starts in Habakkuk 3:11-13 before Armageddon. It will continue through the kingdom age Isaiah 60:19-22 There are many more passages that describe the darkness at noon during when the sun moon and stars withdraw their shinning. America will be the kingdom of antichrist which is judged with darkness.

Like I said it took a book to show it all. “America’s Last Warning” can be read for free on Amazon.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 23, 2012

David777 said:
Attention Eric.

You placed emphasis on the word "then" and
forced the interpretation that "then" actually
means 42 months later. To support this absurd
interpretation you quoted Revelations 12:13-14.
The problem is simply that you neglected to again
quote fully from the relevant chapter. Here is the
information that is missing. When did the devil
arrive on earth.

Revelations 12:4-5
His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.
And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that
when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child,
one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught
up to God and to his throne,

The dragon stood before the woman who was about to
give birth. How can the dragon stand before the woman
if he is still in heaven? Because the dragon was cast out
at an earlier time, in fact before Christ was born. That
is what the text states Eric, your eschatology must encompass
all scripture not selected favorable passages to support
your viewpoint.

David,

The woman in this passage is Israel. The Red Dragon is the Devil. The child is Jesus, who is now in heaven.

120 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

Verse six tells us that Israel flees into the wilderness for 1260 days, or the last half of the tribulation. Verse seven foretells the defeat of Satan and his rebellious angels by God’s archangel Michael and the good angels. Verse four explains that one-third of the angels will rebel against God.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
—Revelation 12:7–12 KJV

When the Devil is defeated, the kingdoms of this world become the property of God and Christ. Notice in verse ten that the Devil is the accuser of both you and me. When we sin, it is as if Satan is approaching the throne of God saying, “Did you see that, God?” However, if you are a believer in Jesus, then Jesus intervenes and tells God, “I paid the sacrifice for that sin,” so God will say it is forgiven!
Jesus is our intercessor. In this passage, heaven rejoices to be rid of the devil and his evil influence. But the message for the world is that trouble is coming because the Devil is the third woe and seventh trumpet judgment. Satan’s full attention and anger is coming to earth. His full vengeance will turn on the Jews because Jesus was born a Jew.
The Devil can read, and he has read these verses. He knows his time is short.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION 121

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
—Revelation 12:13–14 KJV

Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30. God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war till they flee to the river Arnon (Isaiah 16:3).

Eric E Stahl · Nov 23, 2012

David777 said:
If the saints are raptured before the last 42 months
of the reign of the beast over the earth. You will have
to deal with the following glaring problem.

Revelations 14:9-12 (ESV)
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice,
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his
forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured
full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur
in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of
their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers
of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

It sure does appear that the saints must endure the reign of the beast.

David the church age (NOW) believers are raptured before the wrath of the tribulation 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.

There will be millions of people saved during the tribulation plus 1/3 of Israel.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 23, 2012

David777 said:
Hello Eric, how is it going so far?

Sorry to provide obstacles to your viewpoint and
cause you grief but it is necessary to evaluate
every theology using the heat of the scriptures.

This is not a personal attack, so relax and enjoy
the difficult struggle that holding to a theology
imposes.

David,

The hotter the fire the purer the gold!

I appreciate your help. I need to make things more clear.

We are brothers. Besides I have a lot to learn.

jari · Nov 23, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
We are at the end of time because Israel the nation not desired has gathered Zephaniah 1:14-2:3
What nation on the other side of the earth from Israel would you expect to help Israel at a time of nuclear war? Only America.

I appreciate you taking time to go over this and explain it me. This statement however caught my eye. Why do you think we are at end time because Israel is nation?
I read through Zephaniah 1 & 2. it doesn't talk about end times there.... just wrath of God and israel strengthening as nation.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 23, 2012

jari said:
I appreciate you taking time to go over this and explain it me. This statement however caught my eye. Why do you think we are at end time because Israel is nation?
I read through Zephaniah 1 & 2. it doesn't talk about end times there.... just wrath of God and israel strengthening as nation.

Jari,

You are helping me to try and be more understandable.

It is important that you read it in the king James for better understanding of the prophecy.

<style>  </style> It is the time of the end because Zephaniah 1:14–2:3 teaches that the great day of the Lord is near. It is near and hasteth greatly when Israel, the nation not desired, is gathered. Therefore, the end of days started in 1948 when Israel became a nation. Please help me to understand the prophecy that has been sealed until the time of the end. I ask this in Jesus’ name. Amen.”

Zephaniah 1:14–2:3 KJV
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.

This Scripture very clearly teaches that when the Jewish people are back in the land of Israel, the day of the Lord’s judgment is soon!

jari · Nov 23, 2012

day of the Lord was also when Jesus was on earth.

Act 2:16-22 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

( Joe 2:28 - )

Eric E Stahl · Nov 24, 2012

jari said:
day of the Lord was also when Jesus was on earth.

Act 2:16-22 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

( Joe 2:28 - )

jari · Nov 25, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
This prophecy will be fulfilled in the sixth seal judgment. Followed by 144,000 Jews being sealed and serving God.

Revelation 6:12–17 KJV
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

do you mean the part about sun turning dark will become true later? because Peter said the first part had become true at during Jesus earthly ministry and at pentecost day.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 25, 2012

jari said:
do you mean the part about sun turning dark will become true later? because Peter said the first part had become true at during Jesus earthly ministry and at pentecost day.

Yes, the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars will go dark before Armageddon.

Joel 3:14–16 KJV
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the
Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Joel foresaw the sun and moon go dark before the battle of Armageddon starts. The stars also will stop shining over Israel because a solar eclipse causes a twilight condition. Twilight occurs because there is still enough light in the sky to prevent someone from seeing the stars. We now have a similar condition immediately after sunset.

But the sun will be darkened and the moon as blood in the 6th seal when the nuclear war causes the heavens to roll up as a scroll.

Joel 2:27–32 KJV
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The Old Testament prophet Joel also foresaw the nuclear war. He described the atomic bombs as pillars of fire and smoke with vaporized blood in them. The effects of the blasts turned the sun into darkness and the moon into blood. Please notice the word “before” in verse thirty-one. The nuclear war will be in the first half of the seven-year tribulation before the great and terrible day of the Lord which starts in the middle of the tribulation period.

Revelation 6:12–17 KJV
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

16 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and
every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The New Testament apostle John, the one who was a member of Jesus’ inner circle, also foresaw the nuclear war in a vision God gave to him after John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos. He said that it looked as though the stars fell and caused the heavens to roll up as a scroll. John also described the sun as darkened and the moon as blood. He wrote that people will look for caves or places underground to try and survive when the great day of the wrath of the Lamb comes. Everyone will finally believe that the judgment is truly of the Lord. The nuclear war will cause great earthquakes so that the mountains shake.

David777 · Nov 25, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
David the church age (NOW) believers are raptured before the wrath of the tribulation 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.

There will be millions of people saved during the tribulation plus 1/3 of Israel.

Hello Eric.

You stated that believers are raptured before the tribulation.

How do you explain the following;

Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He
will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The Son of Man arrives after the tribulation.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 26, 2012

David777 said:
Hello Eric.

You stated that believers are raptured before the tribulation.

How do you explain the following;

Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He
will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The Son of Man arrives after the tribulation.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 26, 2012

David777 said:
Hello Eric.

You stated that believers are raptured before the tribulation.

How do you explain the following;

Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He
will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The Son of Man arrives after the tribulation.

2nd post

Daniel 12:1–3,6-7 KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;(three and a half years) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

At the middle of the tribulation, when the seventh trumpet blows, Michael the archangel will defeat the Devil and cast him to the earth. Michael will then go to the earth to protect Israel during the last half of the tribulation period. The tribulation dead, who are written in the Book of Life, will be awakened and redeemed from the earth. Jesus will then give them their rewards based on their actions, both good and bad. You will shine for eternity as bright as you were faithful to God on earth. The more people you witness to or help, the brighter you will shine. Everyone will know how faithful you were on earth. I pray that we all decide today to work for Jesus and do right until the stars fall!

Revelation 11:18–19KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

While the mid-tribulation redeemed saints and prophets receive their rewards in heaven, the judgment of the nations on earth will increase in intensity. There will be a great earthquake and huge hailstones.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 26, 2012

David777 said:
Hello Eric.

You stated that believers are raptured before the tribulation.

How do you explain the following;

Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He
will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The Son of Man arrives after the tribulation.

David777 · Nov 27, 2012

Hello Eric.

Eric your reply to my quote from Matthew 24
consisted of three posts, each of which was lengthy,
complex and rather confusing. I will examine a small
extract from your replies.

Here are two paragraphs from post # 58.

"According to 2 Corinthians 5; our spirit, goes to heaven at our death.
The body, however, is redeemed later at the appearing of Jesus, which
we call the rapture for the church-age believers (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18),
and at the last trumpet judgment when the kingdoms of this world become
the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ (Revelation 11:15)."

"There is a redeeming of the martyred tribulation saints, the 144,000
thousand Jews and the two prophets who are called witnesses at the blowing
of the seventh or last trumpet judgment. At that time, they are rewarded in heaven
during the great tribulation here on earth. The church- age believers will be redeemed
at the appearing of Jesus in the air, before the seven-year tribulation starts.
In Revelation 4:10, we discover that that the twenty-four elders will cast their crowns
before the Lord. This indicates that some believers have their rewards before the
seal judgments start."

Firstly Eric, when a christian dies our spirit does not go
straight to heaven. Here is the text you quoted to support
this proposition.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we
have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built
by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed
instead with our heavenly dwelling...

Note that the text does not state that our spirits are with
the Lord after we die. It simply proposes that we have a
dwelling in heaven which we will occupy when Christ
returns. Eric, we are awaiting the return of Christ, this
is a major doctrine in Christianity. When we die we sleep
until Christ returns, we do not join Christ until He returns.

Christ's return is the event that Christians are eagerly
waiting for, we do not gain entry to heaven until
Christ returns.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be
disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us,
to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in anyway
deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and
the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction...

Our physical body is not raised at the last trumpet, we are raised
with an imperishable body, an eternal, immortal body.
imperishable. The physical body decays, it has no use after
death, it is a perishable commodity. Read the following verses;

1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body,
it is raised an imperishable body...

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet
will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The rapture or gathering together with the Lord occurs
at the precise moment when Jesus returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The dead and the living meet the Lord together Eric. One
group does not preceed the other. We meet the Lord when
He returns and not before, that is exactly what Matthew 24
states.

Then you made this confused claim;

"The church- age believers will be redeemed at the appearing of
Jesus in the air, before the seven-year tribulation starts.
In Revelation 4:10, we discover that that the twenty-four elders
will cast their crowns before the Lord. This indicates that some believers
have their rewards before the seal judgments start.""

There is zero scripture to support this wild assertion Eric.
Jesus returns once and only once as 2 Thessalonians 1
describes in detail.

2 Thessalonians 1
7...when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty
angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know
God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence
of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified
in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed...

No where does the scripture state that the Lord returns
before the seven year tribulation. Revelation 4:10 is not
evidence for this wild interpretation. No one has any
idea who the twenty four elders are, it is mere
speculation to attempt to identify them as human.

Paul warns the Thessalonians Eric that they not be disturbed
that the "day of the Lord" could occur at any other time than
when Christ returns.

2 Thessalonians 2
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit
or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

These verses are synchronized completely with Matthew 24.

Jesus returns to collect us after the apostasy and exposes the antichrist
at the same time. If you disagree Eric you will need to furnish
stronger scripture to support your theology than what you
have cited to date.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 27, 2012

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

When our sleeping (dead) bodies are awakened at the resurrection, our bodies will be called up to meet Jesus in the air. At that time, our earthly bodies that have had the sin nature removed will put on our heavenly spiritual bodies and our spirits like a coat. Our two bodies become one, and we will go back to heaven with Jesus at that time.
Prior to the rapture, while we have only our spiritual bodies in heaven, we will still be able to eat food and wear clothing as Jesus did

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