Armageddon
- Thread starter Eric E Stahl
- Start date
Your interpretation of (2 Corinthians 5) indicates that you
may be following a definite theological interpretation.
Here look at this passage;
2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at
home in the body we are away from the Lord,
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from
the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
It is interesting that some would read these verses as Paul
instructing the Corinthians that to be "absent from the body".
Means that the person is then present with the Lord in heaven,
that is they are dead and their spirit is in heaven.
On the contrary Paul is emphasizing a very important rule
that Christians live by, "we walk by faith, not by sight".
If you understand this rule then it is very obvious that Paul is
actually solving all the problems in the Corinthian church.
The solution to live by faith in the eternal reality not in the here
and now.
To be absent from the body means the life of faith lived
not by sight but by the eternal perspective. Hence the line;
9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
makes perfect sense only with the latter interpretation.
That is why all Paul's afflictions are but light, momentary
afflictions of no eternal consequence. The Corinthian
church was not living by faith, they were not in Jesus
they were absent. Preoccupied with the here and now.
may be following a definite theological interpretation.
Here look at this passage;
2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at
home in the body we are away from the Lord,
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from
the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
It is interesting that some would read these verses as Paul
instructing the Corinthians that to be "absent from the body".
Means that the person is then present with the Lord in heaven,
that is they are dead and their spirit is in heaven.
On the contrary Paul is emphasizing a very important rule
that Christians live by, "we walk by faith, not by sight".
If you understand this rule then it is very obvious that Paul is
actually solving all the problems in the Corinthian church.
The solution to live by faith in the eternal reality not in the here
and now.
To be absent from the body means the life of faith lived
not by sight but by the eternal perspective. Hence the line;
9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
makes perfect sense only with the latter interpretation.
That is why all Paul's afflictions are but light, momentary
afflictions of no eternal consequence. The Corinthian
church was not living by faith, they were not in Jesus
they were absent. Preoccupied with the here and now.
Last edited:
Eric E Stahl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2011
- Messages
- 884
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What is your point? Even in the old testament times the spirit was removed from the dead body according to Jesus.
The following passage describes the coldest part of hell. This is where your soul and spirit go when you die if you have not humbled yourself before God and asked Him to forgive your sins. Later there will be a judgment of your actions during your life to determine your degree of damnation. Some people will be sent to a hotter part of hell than others. Hell is the lava in the center of the earth originally created for the Devil and the angels who chose to follow the Devil in revolt against God. Those humans who join the Devil’s revolt against God will also be cast into the lake of fire in the center of the earth with the Devil at the great white throne judgment. The Bible declares that we are already condemned until we repent of our sins and ask Jesus to come into our hearts.
Luke 16:19–31 KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine
linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
(IN OLD TESTAMENT TIMES BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, THE SPIRIT OF SAINTS WERE CARRIED TO THE PARADISE PART OF SHEOL WHEN THEY DIED. NOW WE GO TO BE WITH THE LORD AT THE TIME OF THE DEATH OF OUR BODY)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke describes hell as a place of flaming hot torment. The rich man described in this passage is still alive in hell today, two thousand years later. He will stay there until the great white throne judgment at the end of the one thousand year kingdom age when Jesus rules the earth.
That holding area is actually the coolest part of hell. After the great white throne judgment, those who have not been forgiven will each be thrown into the lake of fire in the center of the earth where they will suffer forever without hope of redemption. They will be separated from God forever.
You may not believe there is a hell. If that is the case, ask God to help you through your disbelief, because hell is a real place.
What is your point? Even in the old testament times the spirit was removed from the dead body according to Jesus.
The following passage describes the coldest part of hell. This is where your soul and spirit go when you die if you have not humbled yourself before God and asked Him to forgive your sins. Later there will be a judgment of your actions during your life to determine your degree of damnation. Some people will be sent to a hotter part of hell than others. Hell is the lava in the center of the earth originally created for the Devil and the angels who chose to follow the Devil in revolt against God. Those humans who join the Devil’s revolt against God will also be cast into the lake of fire in the center of the earth with the Devil at the great white throne judgment. The Bible declares that we are already condemned until we repent of our sins and ask Jesus to come into our hearts.
Luke 16:19–31 KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine
linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
(IN OLD TESTAMENT TIMES BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, THE SPIRIT OF SAINTS WERE CARRIED TO THE PARADISE PART OF SHEOL WHEN THEY DIED. NOW WE GO TO BE WITH THE LORD AT THE TIME OF THE DEATH OF OUR BODY)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke describes hell as a place of flaming hot torment. The rich man described in this passage is still alive in hell today, two thousand years later. He will stay there until the great white throne judgment at the end of the one thousand year kingdom age when Jesus rules the earth.
That holding area is actually the coolest part of hell. After the great white throne judgment, those who have not been forgiven will each be thrown into the lake of fire in the center of the earth where they will suffer forever without hope of redemption. They will be separated from God forever.
You may not believe there is a hell. If that is the case, ask God to help you through your disbelief, because hell is a real place.
The resurrection of the dead and living on the
great day of the Lord when Christ returns, is
what the apostles taught Eric. This is a fundamental
doctrine of the New Testament. Read the following
passages and notice the references to resurrection.
Luke 14
13 But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled,
the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, since they do not
have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid
at the resurrection of the righteous.
Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are
given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy
to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead,
neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot
even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons
of God, being sons of the resurrection.
John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which
all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will
come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection
of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection
of judgment.
John 11
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again
in the resurrection on the last day.”
Acts 4:2
being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people
and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Acts 17
32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead,
some began to sneer,...
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves,
that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous
and the wicked.
1 Corinthians 15:12
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead,
how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits
of those who are asleep.
Hebrews 6:2
of instruction about washings and laying on of hands,
and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests
of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
great day of the Lord when Christ returns, is
what the apostles taught Eric. This is a fundamental
doctrine of the New Testament. Read the following
passages and notice the references to resurrection.
Luke 14
13 But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled,
the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, since they do not
have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid
at the resurrection of the righteous.
Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are
given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy
to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead,
neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot
even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons
of God, being sons of the resurrection.
John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which
all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will
come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection
of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection
of judgment.
John 11
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again
in the resurrection on the last day.”
Acts 4:2
being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people
and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Acts 17
32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead,
some began to sneer,...
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves,
that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous
and the wicked.
1 Corinthians 15:12
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead,
how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits
of those who are asleep.
Hebrews 6:2
of instruction about washings and laying on of hands,
and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests
of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
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On the topic of soul sleep and the day of redemption.
Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on
the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring
of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the
expectation of the things which are coming upon the world;
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they
will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place,
straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption
is drawing near.”
On the subject of fine linen and just who is wearing
this attire.
Revelation 15:6
and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple,
clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with
golden sashes.
It is quite reasonable to assume that the armies of God
that return with Jesus on that great day could very well
be angels. Wearing white linen does not necessarily imply
the saints.
Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on
the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring
of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the
expectation of the things which are coming upon the world;
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they
will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place,
straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption
is drawing near.”
On the subject of fine linen and just who is wearing
this attire.
Revelation 15:6
and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple,
clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with
golden sashes.
It is quite reasonable to assume that the armies of God
that return with Jesus on that great day could very well
be angels. Wearing white linen does not necessarily imply
the saints.
Hello Eric.
You quoted one "parable" to support the concept
of eternal suffering. You would be well advised
to use more than a parable as a foundation for
a belief. Here are some verses that provide an
alternate view to eternal suffering. Destruction
of the wicked appears to be closer to the truth.
Personally I am unsure myself on the subject of hell,
the loving nature of God restrains me to some
extent.
Isaiah 13:6
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide
and the way is broad that leads to destruction,
and there are many who enter through it.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate
His wrath and to make His power known, endured
with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Philippians 1:28
in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is
a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you,
and that too, from God.
Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite,
and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds
on earthly things.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
While they are saying, “ Peace and safety!” then destruction
will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman
with child, and they will not escape.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
1 Timothy 6:9
But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare
and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin
and destruction.
2 Peter 2:3
and in their greed they will exploit you with false words;
their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction
is not asleep.
2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being
reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction
of ungodly men.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to
come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
You quoted one "parable" to support the concept
of eternal suffering. You would be well advised
to use more than a parable as a foundation for
a belief. Here are some verses that provide an
alternate view to eternal suffering. Destruction
of the wicked appears to be closer to the truth.
Personally I am unsure myself on the subject of hell,
the loving nature of God restrains me to some
extent.
Isaiah 13:6
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide
and the way is broad that leads to destruction,
and there are many who enter through it.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate
His wrath and to make His power known, endured
with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Philippians 1:28
in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is
a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you,
and that too, from God.
Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite,
and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds
on earthly things.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
While they are saying, “ Peace and safety!” then destruction
will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman
with child, and they will not escape.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
1 Timothy 6:9
But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare
and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin
and destruction.
2 Peter 2:3
and in their greed they will exploit you with false words;
their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction
is not asleep.
2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being
reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction
of ungodly men.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to
come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
Eric E Stahl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2011
- Messages
- 884
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Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-1KJV, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17KJV also see John16:7-8KJV
(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7KJV who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4KJV
(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV
[/SIZE]
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-1KJV, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17KJV also see John16:7-8KJV
(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7KJV who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4KJV
(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV
[/SIZE]
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Eric E Stahl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2011
- Messages
- 884
David this is a true story not a parable. No names are used in parables.
Hello Eric, appreciate your reply, more so you
provided passages to support your eschatology.
So here is what you stated Eric;
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension.
Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV
Your first claim is: "Jesus took the Old Testament saints
to heaven at His ascension" and you provided a quote
from Psalms to verify this proposition.
Psalms 68 (KJV)
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive:
thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also,
that the Lord God might dwell among them.
It should be apparent that "led captivity captive" does
not mean that saints have been taken to heaven Eric.
How did you arrive at that rendering of Psalms 68?
Much more interesting is your second quote from
Ephesians which is in fact the very same passage
from Psalms 68 quoted by Paul.
Ephesians 4 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high,
he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Paul seems to provide a more interesting reading of Psalms 68.
Paul states that captivity itself was captive, which implies
that Paul is understanding "captivity" as the power of the
devil. Jesus has conquered the captivity of sin and the
devil. Jesus has taken this power captive!
May I ask Eric that you supply more Biblical proof
of your first proposition rather than one passage from
Psalms 68 to bolster your claim.
It is not possible from the one passage in Psalms to
develop the idea that OT saints followed Christ to
heaven. There is not even the faintest hint of support
for the concept Eric.
provided passages to support your eschatology.
So here is what you stated Eric;
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension.
Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV
Your first claim is: "Jesus took the Old Testament saints
to heaven at His ascension" and you provided a quote
from Psalms to verify this proposition.
Psalms 68 (KJV)
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive:
thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also,
that the Lord God might dwell among them.
It should be apparent that "led captivity captive" does
not mean that saints have been taken to heaven Eric.
How did you arrive at that rendering of Psalms 68?
Much more interesting is your second quote from
Ephesians which is in fact the very same passage
from Psalms 68 quoted by Paul.
Ephesians 4 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high,
he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Paul seems to provide a more interesting reading of Psalms 68.
Paul states that captivity itself was captive, which implies
that Paul is understanding "captivity" as the power of the
devil. Jesus has conquered the captivity of sin and the
devil. Jesus has taken this power captive!
May I ask Eric that you supply more Biblical proof
of your first proposition rather than one passage from
Psalms 68 to bolster your claim.
It is not possible from the one passage in Psalms to
develop the idea that OT saints followed Christ to
heaven. There is not even the faintest hint of support
for the concept Eric.
Eric E Stahl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2011
- Messages
- 884
David,
Psalm 68:18 is the prophecy and Ephesians 4:8 is the fulfillment of the prophecy. It makes sense that Jesus would take the old testament saint home at the end of the time of the law because he will take the other saints home at the end of their times.
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18 KJV, Ephesians 4:8 KJV
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 also see John16:7-8 KJV
(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV
(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV
Psalm 68:18 is the prophecy and Ephesians 4:8 is the fulfillment of the prophecy. It makes sense that Jesus would take the old testament saint home at the end of the time of the law because he will take the other saints home at the end of their times.
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18 KJV, Ephesians 4:8 KJV
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 also see John16:7-8 KJV
(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV
(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV
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Howdy Eric.
I have no issue with your book Eric.
I do regard you as a brother in Christ.
I am impressed that you devoted so much
time to the endeavor and created an interest
in eschatology among the readers. Writing a
book is no mean feat, especially a book pertaining
the end times. Impressive!
My concern is with the theology beneath the print,
mid tribulation eschatology.
So let's examine the second phase of the first
resurrection.
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven
before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, nd 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 also see John16:7-8 KJV
Your statement is pure mid tribulation eschatology.
Eric you quoted, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, claiming
that these passages indicate a resurrection of the saints
before the man of lawlessness is given power. That is the
mid tribulation idea, that the saints are gathered together
before the man of lawlessness assumes power.
This idea is flawed and not sustainable when one
reads 2 Thessalonians carefully.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (rapture),
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed
either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that
the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy
comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
See Eric, verse 3 tells us that two events must occur first
before Jesus returns. Apostasy and the man of lawlessness
must be revealed. Now read verse 8 Eric before you assume
the revealing of the antichrist and his exercise of power
are two separate events.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord
will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end
by the appearance of His coming;
Verse 8 provides the clarity that dispenses with the idea
that the revealing of the antichrist and the destruction
of the antichrist are separate events.
Eric the revealing of the antichrist is when Jesus returns.
When Jesus appears the reign of the antichrist is over.
Termination of the great deception takes place "on the
day of the Lord".
As for John 16:7-8, this verse is not related to your
hypothesis.
Now for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
I can see how you are reading the text quoted.
You are placing emphasis on;
"so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."
then you are reading;
"and the dead in Christ will rise first."
as separate events.
This is a distinction which is not in the text.
Paul is simply reassuring the believers at
Thessalonia, that the dead in Christ have
not been neglected. They will join the dead
in Christ who have arisen, together they both
will meet the Lord, on the day of the Lord.
I have no issue with your book Eric.
I do regard you as a brother in Christ.
I am impressed that you devoted so much
time to the endeavor and created an interest
in eschatology among the readers. Writing a
book is no mean feat, especially a book pertaining
the end times. Impressive!
My concern is with the theology beneath the print,
mid tribulation eschatology.
So let's examine the second phase of the first
resurrection.
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven
before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, nd 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 also see John16:7-8 KJV
Your statement is pure mid tribulation eschatology.
Eric you quoted, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, claiming
that these passages indicate a resurrection of the saints
before the man of lawlessness is given power. That is the
mid tribulation idea, that the saints are gathered together
before the man of lawlessness assumes power.
This idea is flawed and not sustainable when one
reads 2 Thessalonians carefully.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (rapture),
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed
either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that
the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy
comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
See Eric, verse 3 tells us that two events must occur first
before Jesus returns. Apostasy and the man of lawlessness
must be revealed. Now read verse 8 Eric before you assume
the revealing of the antichrist and his exercise of power
are two separate events.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord
will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end
by the appearance of His coming;
Verse 8 provides the clarity that dispenses with the idea
that the revealing of the antichrist and the destruction
of the antichrist are separate events.
Eric the revealing of the antichrist is when Jesus returns.
When Jesus appears the reign of the antichrist is over.
Termination of the great deception takes place "on the
day of the Lord".
As for John 16:7-8, this verse is not related to your
hypothesis.
Now for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
I can see how you are reading the text quoted.
You are placing emphasis on;
"so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."
then you are reading;
"and the dead in Christ will rise first."
as separate events.
This is a distinction which is not in the text.
Paul is simply reassuring the believers at
Thessalonia, that the dead in Christ have
not been neglected. They will join the dead
in Christ who have arisen, together they both
will meet the Lord, on the day of the Lord.
Eric E Stahl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2011
- Messages
- 884
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Hi David777,
The antichrist is given control in the western powers before the rapture because they have heard the truth of the gospel and rejected Jesus 2 Thessalonians 8-12. The antichrist will also be given control of the whole earth at the middle of the tribulation by God, when God causes the 10 kings who have conquered the whole earth to give their power to the antichrist and destroy the harlot church called Mystery Babylon Revelation chapter 17.
John 16:7-8 the comforter is he who letteth or controls because he will reprove sin in the earth after He comes.
The two events in verse 3 will occur before the great day of the Lord but not before the rapture.
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