Atheism

[namith]

It is easy to discount scripture if we approach it as a science or history book.It was never meant to be taken literally.The stories contain patterns and cycles in life that wise men took note of and kept dear.

Okay, then how can it be used as evidence of an event that is supposed to have happened?

The existence of the placebo effect leads me to believe faith has substance.All you need for the placebo effect is a reasonable expectation.So in a sense the power of the belief in God is a force in and of itself.

The placebo effect works for anything. It is a testament to the power of the human mind. Whether I believe that sugar pills are going to help me, or Brahman, or Jesus, I will probably get somewhere around the same placebo effect. This in no way supports the idea that a divine being has actually intervened.

you boys have chosen to accept and adapt the kind of monumental faith necessary to believe that there is no God, and that we became these complex species from a single cell ameba back in the day. You feel comfortable having accepted such wild leaps of faith, by somehow believing that science supports you in it, and that is may only be a matter of time until science gets around the gaping holes and begging questions overlooked, such as the missing-link(ssss...) or the ability to put the big-bang theory through the scientific method.

This is a 100% false assessment. It requires absolutely no faith to reject a claim that is not supported by evidence (the existence of God). As for having "faith" in science, that is not faith, it is reasoning backed by evidence. I do not "believe" that abiogenesis occurred, I accept it tentatively as the best available explanation. Evolution occurred; that is a fact knowable beyond a reasonable doubt. The big bang theory is well supported by all available observations of the universe.

What most strongly differentiates my views on these matters from yours is that I accept these things because they are the best available explanation. If another explanation were proposed that fit the facts better, I would likely use it. You, on the other hand, cling to your faith-based beliefs despite substantial evidence to the contrary. It comes down to what IL said, do you accept the idea backed by evidence, or contradicted by it? I choose the former.

 

[james g]

1. Creation requires a Creator. The owner of a wrist watch knows there was a creator of that wrist watch. Intelligence, thought, and effort were required to make the watch.Our magnificent bodies, our complex world, our immense, orderly universe, are all evidences of a Creator. It took intelligence, thought, and effort to make us and the world we find ourselves in.There are LAWS governing our universe - laws of gravity, motion, seasons, tides, wind circuits, etc. These laws presuppose a LawGIVER. Our universe has design and had to have a Designer.
2. The Bible had to be written by God.It is impossible for the Bible to have been written by man alone. The very fact that the Bible is written as it is proves that there had to have been a higher intelligence guiding the writers. Because we know there is a God, we can see the logic and reasonableness of God's writing the Bible. But conversely, because we know the Bible, we can prove there is a God who wrote it.
3. A person who doesn't believe in God will have to face the problem of trying to substantiate a negative. This particular negative would be impossible to prove. Here is why.How can a person prove there is no God? Has this person been everywhere within and without the universe? If there is somewhere he has not been, God might be there. Does this person know everything? If there is something he does not know, that something might be God.
4. Thousands of Christians testify that they know God, that they talk to God, and He hears their prayers and proves it by ANSWERING their prayers.Usually the person who is atheistic or agnostic also tends to feel that he is scientific. To such a person you might point out that no true scientist would reject the testimony of thousands of people that a certain Person exists, has the highest form of intelligence and personality, and loves people tremendously. Certainly, such marvelous claims compel the HONEST skeptic to make a thorough investigation into the matter and not to come to any hasty conclusion that there is no God.

It has been said that when it comes to God and the Bible, an honest skeptic will not be a skeptic very long because after investigation into the matter he will no longer be a skeptic.

To those who don't believe in God or who think God is dead, let me say, "My God is alive! Sorry about yours!"

by Dr. A. Ray Stanford

If you can answer the person's questions on evolution simply and quickly and go immediately back to the plan of salvation, you will accomplish much more than if you spend hours in needless arguing. Your scientific knowledge is not the power of God unto salvation, even when you are witnessing to a person who is interested in science - it is still the gospel that is the power of God unto his salvation. Wisely keep this in mind.

 

[ItinerantLurker]

the Bible has only ever claimed to be
revelation from God. There are no assumptions in the Bible!

Other than the assumption that it is the literal, inerrant, word of God you mean. Which, when you think about it, is a rather large assumption seeing as it requires us to ignore massive amounts of evidence from fields as wide ranging as genetics, archeology, physics, and astronomy.

Also, the messianic prophecies are not vague at all, in fact they tell us
more than we could expect. In addition they are rather precise.

Have you actually read the "messianic prophecies"? Even many evangelical scholars admit they are somewhat ad hoc.




Lurker

 

[ItinerantLurker]

namith and ItinerantLurker: for whatever reason, you boys have chosen to accept and adapt the kind of monumental faith necessary to believe that there is no God,

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people take my "I don't believe the same things about God as you do" and turn it into "You don't believe there is a God".

and that we became these complex species from a single cell ameba back in the day. You feel comfortable having accepted such wild leaps of faith, by somehow believing that science supports you in it, and that is may only be a matter of time until science gets around the gaping holes and begging questions overlooked, such as the missing-link(ssss...) or the ability to put the big-bang theory through the scientific method.

This comfort might be the product of actually understanding the science behind such things as the theory of evolution and modern cosmology in which the two pseudo-issues you raised were dealt with decades ago.

A lack of knowledge is something I can help you with; a desire to be wrong is not.




Lurker

 

[ItinerantLurker]

It took intelligence, thought, and effort to make us and the world we find ourselves in.

Why?

There are LAWS governing our universe - laws of gravity, motion, seasons, tides, wind circuits, etc. These laws presuppose a LawGIVER. Our universe has design and had to have a Designer.

Again though, why? Because our experience with laws on this tiny spec of dust demands it? By what justification are you extrapolating human experience with man-made laws on planet earth to the physical laws of the entire universe?

2. The Bible had to be written by God.It is impossible for the Bible to have been written by man alone.

Again, why? We know that human beings actually did write all the books of the bible so it seems pretty obvious that human beings could have written it.

3. A person who doesn't believe in God will have to face the problem of trying to substantiate a negative. This particular negative would be impossible to prove.

True, but a person who doesn't believe in the same god you do or who is simply unsure if there is a god avoids all of these problems.

4. Thousands of Christians testify that they know God, that they talk to God, and He hears their prayers and proves it by ANSWERING their prayers.

Um. . .do adherents of all other religions not testify to pretty much exactly the same thing?

Usually the person who is atheistic or agnostic also tends to feel that he is scientific. To such a person you might point out that no true scientist would reject the testimony of thousands of people that a certain Person exists, has the highest form of intelligence and personality, and loves people tremendously.

Um, yes actually they would - especially if no two of thousands and thousands of religions could agree, much less the hundreds of thousands of religious subdivisions.

If you can answer the person's questions on evolution simply and quickly and go immediately back to the plan of salvation, you will accomplish much more than if you spend hours in needless arguing. Your scientific knowledge is not the power of God unto salvation, even when you are witnessing to a person who is interested in science - it is still the gospel that is the power of God unto his salvation. Wisely keep this in mind.

The plan of salvation isn't going to matter to someone who isn't convinced that God is real or who isn't convinced that your version of salvation is the correct one.

Lurker

 

[David777]

Dear IL.

Here is one messianic prophecy from Isaiah 9:1-7,

By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
In Galilee of the Gentiles.

The people who walked in darkness
Have seen a great light;

Those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death,
Upon them a light has shined.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;

And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

This one prophecy tells us that the messiah will
appear in Galilee. This messiah is God. This messiah
will establish His kingdom for ever.

Guess who _ _ _ _ _

I think we have been informed precisely how God will act.

 

[namith]

The government will be on his shoulder

Jesus never led a government.

Prince of Peace.

Matthew 10:34 - Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword.

Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end,

Well, his peace did not increase during the Crusades, that's for sure. And if you want to call governments that consider themselves Christian as his government, then they're fading, and have been for centuries.


So yeah, this is a failed prophecy, at least if it is intended to describe Jesus. You can interpret those things differently if you wish, but it will be a matter of interpretation. At that point, you run into the problem with all prophecy: it's vague and could be fulfilled by many things, even things which contradict the actual wording of the prophecy.

And you have still failed to address the most important point. Why should I accept these prophecies and the records of their "fulfillment" in the first place? They both come from the same source. I ask once again: why do you not accept the truth of Harry Potter, despite its clearly fulfilled prophecy?

 

[s.i.e.]

This is a 100% false assessment. It requires absolutely no faith to reject a claim that is not supported by evidence (the existence of God). As for having "faith" in science, that is not faith, it is reasoning backed by evidence. I do not "believe" that abiogenesis occurred, I accept it tentatively as the best available explanation. Evolution occurred; that is a fact knowable beyond a reasonable doubt. The big bang theory is well supported by all available observations of the universe.

What most strongly differentiates my views on these matters from yours is that I accept these things because they are the best available explanation. If another explanation were proposed that fit the facts better, I would likely use it. You, on the other hand, cling to your faith-based beliefs despite substantial evidence to the contrary. It comes down to what IL said, do you accept the idea backed by evidence, or contradicted by it? I choose the former.

Listen to your reasoning: you say you accept abiogenesis "tentatively" because it is the best availalbe explanation? Well, so was a flat-earth, or the idea that the sun revolved around the earth, or blood-letting, for long periods of time...until it was disproved. You didn't need faith to believe in a flat-earth, you just accepted it as fact because it was the best available explanation....yet unknowingly, you were led down the primrose path.

So, your own conviction in what you believe to be good science, or naive-assumptions-of-fath....may have very little to do with the actual truth of it.


As for the Big Bang being, as you say, "well supported by all available observations of the universe"...respectfully, that is just hogwash. You say you hold science high...but unless or until you can put the Big Bang idea through the scientific-method, and make it repeatable and observable...you are simply shrouding yourself from the fact that it is simply a theory. That's why it's appropriately called a theory.



You operate with a high degree of faith. You just don't know it.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts
It is easy to discount scripture if we approach it as a science or history book.It was never meant to be taken literally.The stories contain patterns and cycles in life that wise men took note of and kept dear.

namith asked:

Okay, then how can it be used as evidence of an event that is supposed to have happened?

It can only be used as evidence of the spiritual things that it refers to.
Adam was the first man created in the image of God.The story lends evidence that there were already men in the wilderness.
Why was Cain afraid of men(who would slay him) who were in the wilderness?
The garden is a spiritual place,the field speaks of the soul and the wilderness is the flesh which can only believe its 5 senses.

Trying to literally interpret spiritual things will cause us to miss the true spiritual message and focus on concocting literal explanations which don't hold up.

Keep in mind that science came through observation and experimentation.
Religion was simply an early form of science.It observed cycles and patterns and phenomenon like the placebo effect and dreams.
Science is afraid to even talk about the placebo effect.It would never be mentioned except for the fact that the Pharmaceutical companies have to acknowledge its existence.

Science rejected the notion of electricity at one time.
Now new science's multiverse theory seems strangly close to Jewish mysticism.It is somewhat close to the spiritual interpretation of scripture.Scripture claimed "that which is seen is made from that which is unseen".Science has taken a long time to agree with scripture on that.

 

[s.i.e.]

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people take my "I don't believe the same things about God as you do" and turn it into "You don't believe there is a God".

Lurker - I apologize for assuming you didn't believe in God. It seems that you're saying you do believe in God...you just believe differently than traditional Judeo-Christian belief would suggest. I'm sorry for assuming that about you, and hope you can cease to be amazed by my assumption about you.

the two pseudo-issues you raised were dealt with decades ago.

Dealt with decades ago, mmm? Again, it takes a lot of faith to believe in the hominid, or the Kennewick Man imo.

I think if we took this conversation to the n'th degree, I would conclude that what you call "science", looks a lot more like "religion" than the "religion" that you believe Christians adhere to.

A lack of knowledge is something I can help you with; a desire to be wrong is not.

I've never met a person who desired to be wrong, nor have you. I'm not so sure you can help me with increasing my knowledge base, though, I don't know you, and perhaps you can. Then again, "lurker's" seem to hang around to do just that, and not actually get involved in people's lives or communities...so even if you could, why would anyone trust your intent, given your self-prescribed name?

 

[namith]

Listen to your reasoning: you say you accept abiogenesis "tentatively" because it is the best availalbe explanation? Well, so was a flat-earth, or the idea that the sun revolved around the earth, or blood-letting, for long periods of time...until it was disproved. You didn't need faith to believe in a flat-earth, you just accepted it as fact because it was the best available explanation....yet unknowingly, you were led down the primrose path.

I entirely accept that the theories seeming likely to me may one day be shown to be incorrect. That's what makes my way of thinking more highly validated than yours. If evidence supports another position and contradicts the one I hold, I will change it. As things stand, evidence appears to support the theories currently held by the scientific consensus.

As for the Big Bang being, as you say, "well supported by all available observations of the universe"...respectfully, that is just hogwash. You say you hold science high...but unless or until you can put the Big Bang idea through the scientific-method, and make it repeatable and observable...you are simply shrouding yourself from the fact that it is simply a theory. That's why it's appropriately called a theory.

Evidence for the big bang: general homogeneity of the universe, the fact that the universe is expanding in all directions, the Cosmic microwave background, etc.

Do you know what a theory is? Gravity, germ theory, atomic theory, heliocentrism; those are all theories.

Trying to literally interpret spiritual things will cause us to miss the true spiritual message and focus on concocting literal explanations which don't hold up.

So what actually happened? Did Jesus exist? By what standard do we determine which things happened and which didn't? And by what standard do we determine what the spiritual meaning of these things are? I could do this with any work I pleased. Harry Potter, Atlas Shrugged, The Dark Tower; they're all filled with deep spiritual messages that we should give our lives to. How can anyone possibly disprove it?

Out of curiosity: Lurker, what do you believe?

 

[ItinerantLurker]

Lurker - I apologize for assuming you didn't believe in God.

Don't worry about it. Things happen.

Dealt with decades ago, mmm?

Yes.

Again, it takes a lot of faith to believe in the hominid,

Given that you are a hominid I find this rather hard to believe.

or the Kennewick Man imo.

What you think Kennewick Man has to do with evolution is a bit of a mystery to me.

I've never met a person who desired to be wrong, nor have you.

Unfortunately I have, many times. It usually involves some form of cognitive dissonance and is, unfortunately, prevalent among evangelical Christians. Typically I see this desire to be wrong expressed about evolution where, despite having been educated thoroughly about what evolution actually is people repeatedly mischaracterize it and/or the evidence supporting it (though this is by no means confined to the topic of evolution).




Lurker

 

[ItinerantLurker]

Out of curiosity: Lurker, what do you believe?

Personally, I believe that God created a universe in which the fundamental laws of nature made the natural rise of not only life, but intelligent life, inevitable. That being said, the more I come to understand how the universe works the harder it is for me to accept that this vast cosmos is all here for one particular version of one particular religion of one particular species on one particular planet.

There is simply no evidence and no need for a divine creator to be found in nature, even at the most fundamental level of the origins of the big bang. The vast amounts of physical evidence embedded in our universe, the inconsistency of Christian beliefs throughout the centuries, and the consistent failure of the church to be on what we now recognize as the "right" side of issues both moral and scientific have led me to conclude that either:

• God created a deceptive universe/scripture
• There is no God
• Many of the things we believe about God aren't actually true

Currently I'm leaning heavily towards that last conclusion. The tipping point for me was not accepting evolution, it was when I truly examined what I wanted from my faith - the hard truth, or the comforting fable.

So. . .do I believe in God? I think so. . .am I a Christian? That is a bit more of a work in progress.

". . .But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable."
Carl Sagan, The Pale Blue Dot
​

Lurker

 

[David777]

Hello IL.

Interesting arguments I must say.

You did say,

God created a deceptive universe/scripture
There is no God
Many of the things we believe about God aren't actually true

Firstly, why would the Universe appear deceptive?

 

[namith]

Lurker, yours is the kind of belief I find tenable, though I don't actually believe it myself. God as creator, particularly in setting up natural laws that play out into the universe, makes some sense.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So what actually happened? Did Jesus exist? By what standard do we determine which things happened and which didn't? And by what standard do we determine what the spiritual meaning of these things are? I could do this with any work I pleased. Harry Potter, Atlas Shrugged, The Dark Tower; they're all filled with deep spiritual messages that we should give our lives to. How can anyone possibly disprove it?

I don't know what actually happened because as far as know I was not there in my present form.
Did Jesus exist?Again I wasnt there so I can't say for certain.
However words attributed to Jesus do exist and so I can say "the word" exists.So he does exist presently in my mind as his word.

And by what standard do we determine what the spiritual meaning of these things are?

There are keys to unlocking the different levels of scripture.

Example:
Jesus said in John 10:8:All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
This tells me that the prophets before Jesus may have had some wrong conclusions about the nature of God and life itself.

Also:
Jesus said in John 16:12, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

As for Harry Potter,the dark tower or even the spaghetti monster,I suppose if many men believed them and contemplated on them they might add to them for a few hundred years then they would probably contain some wisdom to be extracted.As they are now they do contain some spiritual wisdom but to call it deep would be stretching it.

If some one found something in those books that helped them in life why would I want to disprove it?

 

[rizen1]

Grace and Peace

Namith, I just realize there's no post in the new members section introducing yourself, and this thread seem to be the only one you post in.

I've read the red** ( you know the site )comments not sure if you're part of the discussion bashing christians and insulting our intellect. If those people really think they are enlightened or evolved then they need to broaden their vocabulary. It's easy to curse and trash talk people when they are not aware of it. I careless about the insults and if I too had nothing better in my life to do, I'd join the discussion and let them know what I think about them. It's easy to hide behind a computer and call christians ignorant, but using the same breathe and energy to type such vile foolishness they themselves are being ignorant.

You found talkJesus from that discussion. Now we welcome everyone but we do not tolerate foolishness or games. We want honest people who enjoy learning together. Not those who take what is found on this site to only trash it on another. I'm not accusing you of being involved in that discussion, because I can not prove it. However you made it clear when registering to this site how you found us.

I want to know your motives on this site ?
There are members here who will go out of their way to help you and answer you. It would not be fair if their help is not what you seek. The site is open to anyone, but please respect this is a christians site, based on the bible and our love to God. There's no persuading us to believe anything else. I would not join the discussion that brought you here to debate them, because I know I can not persuade them to follow Jesus.



The world have chosen Aleister Crowley as their savior, living by his words.." Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Christians have chosen Jesus as their savior, living by his words,
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 15: 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Matt22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

There is no christian nation or government that exist today, not every person who claim to be a christian is. So please do not use the crusades to hold God accountable.

Be bless,hope you get the answers for your life journey.

 

[namith]

To ThisCross: So what do you actually believe? And in what ways does that inform your actions? For example, would you ever attempt to pass legislation preventing people from doing something you believed was wrong or vote against a political candidate based on their faith?

I ask because I suspect your beliefs might be cool in my book.



To rizen1: You should be able to find any comment or link I've posted on that site pretty easily. I was linked to this thread, which was presented, at least initially, as a list of arguments to use against atheism, to which I presented a rebuttal. The conversation has gone on from there. I am unlikely to contribute to other threads, as I would not wish to intrude on your community anywhere other than this thread, which I interpreted as an invitation to argument/discussion.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

To ThisCross: So what do you actually believe? And in what ways does that inform your actions? For example, would you ever attempt to pass legislation preventing people from doing something you believed was wrong or vote against a political candidate based on their faith?

As a child they told me that God could see all, knows all and knows the number of atoms in the universe and the number of hairs on my head.
I thought,"yeah right,adults sure are stupid".

Then I learned computers and how to design video games and first person shooter platforms and thought to myself,"maybe adults weren't so stupid".
I am God of the virtual world I create.I know every atom because I put them there.I would be omnipresent,omnipotent and could change timelines through the save game feature.If the artificial intelligence characters (known as NPC's) were very sophisticated I could try to tell them about me and my world but it would not make much sense to them.If I told them I made them through my keyboard and mouse they could only relate it to keyboards and mouse's that are known to them in their world.

So,how do I know that I'm not sitting in a gaming chair 500 years from now and am at this time experiencing a simulated environment.We might have the technology by then be able to live a simulated full life in just a few hours of real time.

I believe scripture defines things we cannot know apart from revelation by some means.Science has described our universe as a possible annex of some other thing(perhaps a manifold universe).

Electricity is a good example to me because I am a generator technician.In my training I always struggled to understand how electricity worked and never felt I understood.However I aced all tests and was even able to correct my teachers when they were in error.
I finally figured out that no one understands electricity(except maybe Tesla). I am still not convinced electricity is not man made.The placebo efffect coupled with the observer effect and the dilligent study of men seeking answers could have well created it.
As a scientist this makes little or no sense.However as a scientist life itself makes no sense.Life totally defies entropy,the placebo effect defies physics itself.

Jesus(at least the words attributed to him) defied all known religion of his time.
John 16:12, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now

I would venture to say that if the things not yet revealed were suddenly to be known that he would again be rejected by religion.
I came to study scripture because of witnessing several totally illogical miracles and I wanted answers.In other words I'm one of those who believe because I see the results or outcomes of believing.I cannot yet say I understand what it is I see that is why I continue my research.

BTW,Jesus said blessed is he who does not see and yet believes.

 

[namith]

Electricity is a good example to me because I am a generator technician.In my training I always struggled to understand how electricity worked and never felt I understood.However I aced all tests and was even able to correct my teachers when they were in error.
I finally figured out that no one understands electricity(except maybe Tesla).

Ummmm, what? Electricity is relatively well understood. Electrons are charged particles that move from high voltage to low voltage. This voltage is often generated from chemical effects (electrons like certain states in relation to the atoms they're involved with). Relativity also plays a part, in the form of magnetism.

Life totally defies entropy

Life generates huge amounts of entropy, and takes in huge amounts of energy to do so. It in no way violates entropy.

the placebo effect defies physics itself.

Ummm, no it doesn't.

Check the wikipedia page on placebo, it has a section on the mechanism.

The human body has healing powers, controlled largely by your brain. Naturally, different brain states can influence how effective your healing powers are.